Which DO schools have least emphasis on OMM?

[DropkickMurphy]

I was talking to someone who attends KCOM and was told that they have a huge emphasis on OMM (as would be expected), and I've realized from observing with DO's that it is not terribly useful (or at least not widely used). Are there any schools that spend less time on the topic? Thanks everyone.... 🙂

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[raptor5]

If you have to ask that question you probably have no real desire of learning OMM and should just go the MD route. We have enough disgruntled DO students running around.

To answer your question I will say that PCOM has on avg 1.5 hours of OMM lecture and 1.5 hours of OMM lab per week. OMM is not really discussed in other lectures. It is easy to just pass the OMM written tests and fake your way through the practicals. I wish it didn't happen but it does. The great thing about the DO profession is while you may have to pass OMM you do not have to practice it.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I have an interest in learning it, but I'm just wondering about this. Please don't take my interest in learning this aspect of practice as quickly as possible as a lack of interest in osteopathy, or as being disgruntled.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I was talking to someone who attends KCOM and was told that they have a huge emphasis on OMM (as would be expected), and I've realized from observing with DO's that it is not terribly useful (or at least not widely used). Are there any schools that spend less time on the topic? Thanks everyone.... 🙂

That looks like a poorly written statement on your part. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. It is extremely helpful in sports medicine, where I plan on using it.

You obviously won't use it if you are a psychiatrist. Almost all specialties can use it in some form or fashion, however.

As far as KCOM is concerned--they are the origin of osteopathy, so they will have the most time spent in class. They do much more than most schools.

OSU-COM does less than KCOM, but I'm not sure how it compares to other schools. We do 1 hour of lecture and 2 hours of lab a week. I know KCOM meets several days a week.

 

[bones]

I was talking to someone who attends KCOM and was told that they have a huge emphasis on OMM (as would be expected), and I've realized from observing with DO's that it is not terribly useful (or at least not widely used). Are there any schools that spend less time on the topic? Thanks everyone.... 🙂

Osteopathy is an all or nothing art- mostly because of the structure of 3rd and 4th year at most schools. It is very difficult to dabble in it and walk away with anything of value (other than perhaps comfort touching patients and some extra functional anatomy).

If as a pre-med you already know you wont be putting much effort into learning osteopathic principles, save yourself the hundreds of hours of classtime and save your future classmates from your pessimism when it doesnt work for you (which it rarely does for those who put in only the minimum to get by). If you dont use OMM regularly during 3rd and 4th year without supervision, the sad fact is- you will forget most of what you learned. When you graduate, you might as well have gone to an MD school- and you will have a really hard time answering questions about what a DO is and why you are one. I think some of the AOA board members are still struggling with this, which is why you hear all that nonsense about DO's being more compassionate than MD's.

 

[mocheese]

at ccom we have 1 hour lecture and 3 hour lab. It is sort of time consuming but really requires little effort to pass and it helps you to learn important landmarks and skeletal anatomy

 

[OnMyWayThere]

at ccom we have 1 hour lecture and 3 hour lab. It is sort of time consuming but really requires little effort to pass and it helps you to learn important landmarks and skeletal anatomy

At COMP we have 3 hours a week... not easy and not terribly difficult (still have to take a written and practical exam, which will be the case at any school). If you don't believe in it though, you won't be happy at an osteopathic medical school. So think hard before commiting to over $100k and 4 years in your education.

 

[surrender903]

You obviously won't use it if you are a psychiatrist.

O RLY?

 

[Shodddy18]

You obviously won't use it if you are a psychiatrist. Almost all specialties can use it in some form or fashion, however.

We actually had a one hour lecture this morning on exactly that. You would be surprised! There are some pretty cool things that can be done. Obviously it would not be the definitive treatment, but is a great adjunct for some conditions.

 

[DocBannister]

We have 1 hour of lecture and 2 hours of lab. If you are looking to see whether a school places an emphasis on OMT/OMM, see what kinds of other programs the school offers - OMM residencies, OMM rotations, involvement in OMT clubs.

At UNE, we have OMM integrated in almost every class - isn't that one of the big differences between an allopathic and osteopathic education? Although not every DO practices OMT, it's important to understand the fundamental concepts that it teaches and emphasizes.

 

[stoleyerscrubz]

I was recently talking to a student at UNE and I was told that there were no OMT clubs that he was aware of. UNE has OMT clubs listed as UNE Student Organization?

We have 1 hour of lecture and 2 hours of lab. If you are looking to see whether a school places an emphasis on OMT/OMM, see what kinds of other programs the school offers - OMM residencies, OMM rotations, involvement in OMT clubs.

At UNE, we have OMM integrated in almost every class - isn't that one of the big differences between an allopathic and osteopathic education? Although not every DO practices OMT, it's important to understand the fundamental concepts that it teaches and emphasizes.

 

[stoleyerscrubz]

DO students tend tell me that UMDNJ does not have the best rep for teaching OMM, but I never get a straight answer on why this is so. Is it the number of hours or class time dedicated to OMM? Anyone care to comment?

 

[jonb12997]

I was recently talking to a student at UNE and I was told that there were no OMT clubs that he was aware of. UNE has OMT clubs listed as UNE Student Organization?

UNE has a pretty active UAAO...

 

[Nate]

A few years ago OMT was taught out of the multi-purpose room while the building it is housed in now was completed. This is what most of the complaints were about. It is now taught in a modern facility with the nice tables and we have some great open minded professors who practice strictly OMT out of their practices. We have OMM once a week which includes an hour lecture, 2 hour lab, and then for 10 weeks of the first semester we get another lecture called functional anatomy. The first lecture teaches us the different treatments and diagnoses techniques while the functional anatomy teaches us landmarks and how the different laws of physics and motion work on the body. Outside of the regular OMM classes we have a very active OMM club which holds reviews once a week for people who are more hardcore OMT enthusiasts or just want to understand it better. However, outside of OMT classes and the extracurricular stuff there is no mention of OMT here at UMDNJ so far. The basic science classes teach basic sciences. It comes down to what you want, as does most things here. If you want more OMT you can get it by asking for an OMT preceptor for your clinical time, joining the club and heading over to the student OMT clinic. If you just want to get through it and be done with it you have a half day a week of it and that is all you will know of it. I don’t buy the whole “you need to use OMT to be an osteopathic physician” line and neither do the majority of osteopathic physicians since they don’t use it.
Anyway, I hope that clears up OMT at UMDNJ and I hope I represented it fairly.
~Nate

DO students tend tell me that UMDNJ does not have the best rep for teaching OMM, but I never get a straight answer on why this is so. Is it the number of hours or class time dedicated to OMM? Anyone care to comment?

 

[crys20]

DMU seemed to hugely emphasize it. AZCOM seemed to not so much emphasize it, they seemed more 'allopathic' there. Obviously this is probably due to DMU being created in, like, the 1800s and AZCOM being created in 1997!

 

[DrFeelgoodDO]

A few years ago OMT was taught out of the multi-purpose room while the building it is housed in now was completed. This is what most of the complaints were about. It is now taught in a modern facility with the nice tables and we have some great open minded professors who practice strictly OMT out of their practices. We have OMM once a week which includes an hour lecture, 2 hour lab, and then for 10 weeks of the first semester we get another lecture called functional anatomy. The first lecture teaches us the different treatments and diagnoses techniques while the functional anatomy teaches us landmarks and how the different laws of physics and motion work on the body. Outside of the regular OMM classes we have a very active OMM club which holds reviews once a week for people who are more hardcore OMT enthusiasts or just want to understand it better. However, outside of OMT classes and the extracurricular stuff there is no mention of OMT here at UMDNJ so far. The basic science classes teach basic sciences. It comes down to what you want, as does most things here. If you want more OMT you can get it by asking for an OMT preceptor for your clinical time, joining the club and heading over to the student OMT clinic. If you just want to get through it and be done with it you have a half day a week of it and that is all you will know of it. I don’t buy the whole “you need to use OMT to be an osteopathic physician” line and neither do the majority of osteopathic physicians since they don’t use it.
Anyway, I hope that clears up OMT at UMDNJ and I hope I represented it fairly.
~Nate

Represented perfectly. Too bad my class never got to use that new lab! Oh yeah, is that student OMT clinic new, Nate?

 

[DOctorJay]

In the past UMDNJ was not known for it's strength in OMT. With Dr. Mason now heading up the department along with some excellent adjunct faculty board scores in this section have gone up dramatically and some major changes have occurred for the better (i.e. a state of the art lab with real OMM tables, skeletal models for the classrooms as well as the labs, student OMT clinic, etc.).

The nice thing about UMDNJ is that if you are into OMM it's there for you and you have excellent resources at your fingertips, however if you just want the basics and don't plan on going into a field that will utilize OMT then you won't get OMM jammed down your throat either.

-J

 

[dcratamt]

There are some schools that don't emphasize OMM; Harvard, Brown, Johns Hopkins, U of Vermont, U of KY, and so on and so on.

 

[jonb12997]

There are some schools that don't emphasize OMM; Harvard, Brown, Johns Hopkins, U of Vermont, U of KY, and so on and so on.

🙄

 

[babyruth]

DMU has 1.5 hours lecture, 2 hour labs or more each week. I'm rotating through the Ohio Core right now and we have to have several OMT didactics and OMT physical exams done in our FP rotation. The FPs that I rotate with use it and do not charge their patients for it; (the hospital I go through requires a structural exam of any inpatient under a DO care---At DMU, I know we were taught how to charge for it, but many insurance companies do not pay for it). OH seems like a pretty DO friendly and appreciative state.

 

[stoleyerscrubz]

.

 

[raptor5]

DMU has 1.5 hours lecture, 2 hour labs or more each week. I'm rotating through the Ohio Core right now and we have to have several OMT didactics and OMT physical exams done in our FP rotation. The FPs that I rotate with use it and do not charge their patients for it; (the hospital I go through requires a structural exam of any inpatient under a DO care---At DMU, I know we were taught how to charge for it, but many insurance companies do not pay for it). OH seems like a pretty DO friendly and appreciative state.

I would tend to disagree but it may be regional. Medicaid/Medicare, BC/BS, AETNA, United Healthcare, and HCA all cover OMM in some way or another. Documenting and Coding correctly in order to receive the reimbursement may be a different story. The funny thing is although I am not a fan of AETNA they paid out over 150 clams for my OMM visit (15 min.).

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Osteopathy is an all or nothing art- mostly because of the structure of 3rd and 4th year at most schools. It is very difficult to dabble in it and walk away with anything of value (other than perhaps comfort touching patients and some extra functional anatomy).

If as a pre-med you already know you wont be putting much effort into learning osteopathic principles, save yourself the hundreds of hours of classtime and save your future classmates from your pessimism when it doesnt work for you (which it rarely does for those who put in only the minimum to get by)...

When you graduate, you might as well have gone to an MD school- and you will have a really hard time answering questions about what a DO is and why you are one...

I read this and wonder if you grasp exactly what osteopathy really is. I'll tell you one thing: it isn't OMM! Sure, OMM is a part of osteopathy, but it's certainly much more than that.

As for the pre-meds, there is plenty of room in DO schools for persons of all opinions on osteopathy. (And if there isn't, we'll just open up a few more schools. 🙂 ). And don't worry if you think OMM is not for you. Like I said, osteopathy is more than manipulation. Take what works, and leave what doesn't. And don't worry if the OMM fellows don't like it when you question how some of the stuff they swear by actually works. Healthy exploration (rather than repeating your OMM faculty's dogma) will help you learn to assess medical problems in more critical light. Which, ironically, was what osteopathy used to be all about.

I do agree that if you don't practice OMM often, you'll forget it. Which is why I think it's best to tease out what works for you, use it, and forget the stuff that is bogus and unreliable.

Lastly, because osteopathy is more about an approach to how medical thought processes are applied to patients, it's no surprise that you can be a true osteopath in any field you choose. Do we kick out the pathologists or radiologists out of the profession because they don't crack necks? Of course not.

We have enough people cracking on us because we go to DO schools. I think it's insane that we have people within our schools questioning the same.

 

[dcratamt]

I read this and wonder if you grasp exactly what osteopathy really is. I'll tell you one thing: it isn't OMM! Sure, OMM is a part of osteopathy, but it's certainly much more than that.

As for the pre-meds, there is plenty of room in DO schools for persons of all opinions on osteopathy. (And if there isn't, we'll just open up a few more schools. 🙂 ). And don't worry if you think OMM is not for you. Like I said, osteopathy is more than manipulation. Take what works, and leave what doesn't. And don't worry if the OMM fellows don't like it when you question how some of the stuff they swear by actually works. Healthy exploration (rather than repeating your OMM faculty's dogma) will help you learn to assess medical problems in more critical light. Which, ironically, was what osteopathy used to be all about.

I do agree that if you don't practice OMM often, you'll forget it. Which is why I think it's best to tease out what works for you, use it, and forget the stuff that is bogus and unreliable.

Lastly, because osteopathy is more about an approach to how medical thought processes are applied to patients, it's no surprise that you can be a true osteopath in any field you choose. Do we kick out the pathologists or radiologists out of the profession because they don't crack necks? Of course not.

We have enough people cracking on us because we go to DO schools. I think it's insane that we have people within our schools questioning the same.

The reason people crack on us is because we go through this non traditional route to do medicine and then don't practice anything that the non traditional route teaches us. Then we are surprised when people ask why didn't you just go to MD school? Now i don't think we kick everyone out of the profession that doesn't do OMM, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that osteopathy is just a "mind set" or a "philosophy." It is a mind set and philosophy that comes from looking at the host component of the person's disease process and realizing that two people with the same medical diagnosis can have different symptoms and different potential. And their potential to fight off the disease can be enhanced by treating the individuals host dysfunctions.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

The reason people crack on us is because we go through this non traditional route to do medicine and then don't practice anything that the non traditional route teaches us. Then we are surprised when people ask why didn't you just go to MD school?

I think you missed the point, so I'll be more clear: Instead of telling people not to go to DO schools because they may not like some aspects of OMM, DO schools should be welcoming of individuals who want to practice medicine from an osteopathic mindset. Once again, this may or may not include manipulation (a modality that can only be plausibly effective in treating a fraction of human disease).

Of course, I think MD schools should (and do, actually) look for applicants to train in an integrative decision making process.

And like most (if not all) of my classmates, we are more than comfortable with the real reasons we went to DO school. And many of those reasons weren't to practice "non-traditional medicine", but that's another topic for another day.

In the end, I think it's incredibly foolhardy to discourage potential DO applicants because they question some of OMM. We're not running a religion here. (Well, maybe to some it is... 😉 ).

Now i don't think we kick everyone out of the profession that doesn't do OMM, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that osteopathy is just a "mind set" or a "philosophy." It is a mind set and philosophy that comes from looking at the host component of the person's disease process and realizing that two people with the same medical diagnosis can have different symptoms and different potential. And their potential to fight off the disease can be enhanced by treating the individuals host dysfunctions.

Osteopathy is most definately a mindset and philosophy, from which OMM is a mere branch. And I happen to think the tree is big enough for birds of all feathers to find a nice place to hang out, be it the OMM branch, the radiology branch, or whatever.

However, I do think a key to understanding osteopathic thought is to recognize that you can be an osteopath without laying hands on anyone.

 

[crys20]

Hey SanJuan, I have a totally off-topic question.

I know you're an AZCOMer, you may know that I am super interested in the school. I was wondering, roughly, how many people do you think really CHOSE to be DOs? This will most likely be me...and I wonder if it would be at all wearing to be around people who maybe aren't super excited because they are not at their first, second, or third choice school?

 

[HoodyHoo]

O RLY?

As a psychiatrist you could essentially use bits and pieces of cranial. for example, if you have a child that is aggressive in nature you can check for rotation of thier parietals/temporal bones i beileve. and i'm sure there are other things that you could do, but the question is how practical are those things for everyday practice??

i guess you'd have to really believe in cranial also which is a whole other topic in itself........cause frankly it sounds like a bunch of bull$hit sometimes.

 

[dcratamt]

I think you missed the point, so I'll be more clear: Instead of telling people not to go to DO schools because they may not like some aspects of OMM, DO schools should be welcoming of individuals who want to practice medicine from an osteopathic mindset. Once again, this may or may not include manipulation (a modality that can only be plausibly effective in treating a fraction of human disease).

Of course, I think MD schools should (and do, actually) look for applicants to train in an integrative decision making process.

And like most (if not all) of my classmates, we are more than comfortable with the real reasons we went to DO school. And many of those reasons weren't to practice "non-traditional medicine", but that's another topic for another day.

In the end, I think it's incredibly foolhardy to discourage potential DO applicants because they question some of OMM. We're not running a religion here. (Well, maybe to some it is... 😉 ).



Osteopathy is most definately a mindset and philosophy, from which OMM is a mere branch. And I happen to think the tree is big enough for birds of all feathers to find a nice place to hang out, be it the OMM branch, the radiology branch, or whatever.

However, I do think a key to understanding osteopathic thought is to recognize that you can be an osteopath without laying hands on anyone.

First off your point is crystal clear.........i just think it is wrong. Second of all i am glad that you and your classmates are comfortable with the fact that you are in DO school because you had low GPA's and poor MCAT performances however i think that there are better ways to pick potential DO students. For instance, there openness to learn and practice OMM, which is the real difference between MD's and DO's. I am not saying many DO's do OMM and fewer do it correctly, but i am saying that it is the "real and palpable" difference between the two professions. Now granted i think your big tree concept is cute but it is also simplistic. Health care and industry is run on money and on who can provide what services to which patients in the most efficient manner. If two professions are just duplicating services then eventually one will be eliminated. Here is a quiz........do you think the profession with 23 schools or the one with 125 schools is going to cease to exist? In case you didn't know the answer is that DO's will be gone. Granted, I am sure you(or your classmates) don't give two ****s about this since it seems you really wanted to go to MD school anyway, but the DO's that do see the benefits of OMM and the patients that benefit from OMM will get the short end of the stick (or branch in your case)that short sighted and ill trained manual physicians such as yourself are cramming up their asses. OMM is based on an anatomical and physiological base and is the point of entry needed to enter the other areas that you seem to be making references too, although all your "branches" seem very vague. For instance issues of allostatic load and psychological issues also considered "holistic" are best addressed when there is physical contract between the physician and patient. And as far as OMM only being effective for a fraction of patients; i don't know any medicine that doesn't have increased effectiveness when delivered more efficiently to biological tissues. Vasomotor tone can be reduced by correcting sympathetic hyperstimulation from thoracic and rib cage dysfunction.(not exactly a religious epiphany but effective nonetheless) Now how many patients may benefit from this, as well as OMM to other areas, for other reasons? Hint: more than a fraction. 👍

 

[macman]

I read this and wonder if you grasp exactly what osteopathy really is. I'll tell you one thing: it isn't OMM! Sure, OMM is a part of osteopathy, but it's certainly much more than that.

As for the pre-meds, there is plenty of room in DO schools for persons of all opinions on osteopathy. (And if there isn't, we'll just open up a few more schools. 🙂 ). And don't worry if you think OMM is not for you. Like I said, osteopathy is more than manipulation. Take what works, and leave what doesn't. And don't worry if the OMM fellows don't like it when you question how some of the stuff they swear by actually works. Healthy exploration (rather than repeating your OMM faculty's dogma) will help you learn to assess medical problems in more critical light. Which, ironically, was what osteopathy used to be all about.

I do agree that if you don't practice OMM often, you'll forget it. Which is why I think it's best to tease out what works for you, use it, and forget the stuff that is bogus and unreliable.

Lastly, because osteopathy is more about an approach to how medical thought processes are applied to patients, it's no surprise that you can be a true osteopath in any field you choose. Do we kick out the pathologists or radiologists out of the profession because they don't crack necks? Of course not.

We have enough people cracking on us because we go to DO schools. I think it's insane that we have people within our schools questioning the same.

i have read enough of waddington's post to know that he has not only a passion for osteopathy, but a knowledge set of the profession. So I disagree with your assessment of him and his post. While OMT is not ostepathy, osteopathic principles are certainly part of it and at its origins osteopathy was inseperable from manual interventions.

We can have the 'ol swabble about whether or not you are a real DO if you use/don't use OMT-but we all know that most DOs do not (at least regularly). I'd rather not spin my wheels.

We all have the individual choice to follow the majority or decide to excell in the profession of our choosing. Now that I'm in residency-I notice pts. pay a lot of attention to the initials after my name when its their family member I'm taking care of-I get the question all the time: what kind of doctor is a "D.O." , how do you provide an effective answer to that unless you have embraced what makes us unique? Plenty of MDs are 'holistic', but very few can lay hands on a patient and diagnose/treat structural components of disease.

every specialty, including pathology, can incorporate what we learn in OMT/OMM to be better physicians.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Hey SanJuan, I have a totally off-topic question.

I know you're an AZCOMer, you may know that I am super interested in the school. I was wondering, roughly, how many people do you think really CHOSE to be DOs? This will most likely be me...and I wonder if it would be at all wearing to be around people who maybe aren't super excited because they are not at their first, second, or third choice school?

It's really tough to say, for several reasons. For some of us, it wasn't our first choice, but it was for a lot of people on the other hand. By the time you start school, you're all so excited to get going that everyone is pretty positive and all. And then the first exams hit, and you all are hating life together. 🙂

Suffice it to say, there will be a lot of different people there for a lot of different reasons. And besides, nobody sits around judging if so-and-so should be in a DO school or not. Well, at least none of the cool kids do.... 😉

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

First off your point is crystal clear.........

Well, your reply wasn't.

Second of all i am glad that you and your classmates are comfortable with the fact that you are in DO school because you had low GPA's and poor MCAT performances

LOL. This shows exactly what you do (or don't) know. And besides, are you trying to insult me based on my MCAT score? Are you that much of a tool?

however i think that there are better ways to pick potential DO students. For instance, there openness to learn and practice OMM, which is the real difference between MD's and DO's.

Teriffic. We're basically chiropracters who can prescribe. I'm sure this is what old A.T. intended when he unfurled the banner.

I am not saying many DO's do OMM and fewer do it correctly, but i am saying that it is the "real and palpable" difference between the two professions. Now granted i think your big tree concept is cute but it is also simplistic.

It's certainly a palpable difference to the layperson, or those uninitiated to osteopathy. I would expect a better understanding from someone in the profession. (You are in medical school, right? This is a serious question.)

Here is a quiz........do you think the profession with 23 schools or the one with 125 schools is going to cease to exist? In case you didn't know the answer is that DO's will be gone.

You base that on what exactly? Certainly not economics. For crying out loud, we open new schools every week. Too many people profit from osteopathy for it to simply die on the vine. And we do have a little physician shortage thingy going on too.

Granted, I am sure you(or your classmates) don't give two ****s about this since it seems you really wanted to go to MD school anyway

You know what they say about people who make assumptions, right?

but the DO's that do see the benefits of OMM and the patients that benefit from OMM will get the short end of the stick (or branch in your case)that short sighted and ill trained manual physicians such as yourself are cramming up their asses.

Lucky for me, I don't want to be a manual physician. I want to be a total physician.

Seriously though, I have no problem with docs who practice mainly OMM. That's their perogative, and I have no problem with the care they offer. But I find it concerning when these individuals get all militant about folks who don't feel so inclined.

And as far as OMM only being effective for a fraction of patients; i don't know any medicine that doesn't have increased effectiveness when delivered more efficiently to biological tissues. Vasomotor tone can be reduced by correcting sympathetic hyperstimulation from thoracic and rib cage dysfunction.(not exactly a religious epiphany but effective nonetheless) Now how many patients may benefit from this, as well as OMM to other areas, for other reasons? Hint: more than a fraction.

No one denies that OMM might help a lot of patients (although the actual evidenced is mixed at best). I certainly enjoy having some OMM done to and by me. But I'm not ignorant to the fact that there's a lot of disease that isn't cured by manual manipulation. Certainly, you don't fix a diabetics serum glucose by increasing their vasomotor tone.

Unfortunately, OMM needs much more study and evidence based evaluation. And it helps to recognize that some OMM is only palliative or periphreal care. But above all else, it's important to realize that judging who should and shouldn't be in a DO school is more than a little lame.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

i have read enough of waddington's post to know that he has not only a passion for osteopathy, but a knowledge set of the profession.

Having "passion" is not mutually exclusive with being right. I have no doubt that he recognizes what osteopathy is, but I do feel (from his post) that he overemphasizes OMM's place in the profession. And more importantly, I find his judgements about applicants a bit in the extreme.

So I disagree with your assessment of him and his post.

Which is certainly your perogative.

While OMT is not ostepathy, osteopathic principles are certainly part of it and at its origins osteopathy was inseperable from manual interventions.

I don't disagree (that you can't totally seperate OMM from osteoapthy). I just dont think the two are mutually exclusive. OMM doesn't exist without the osteopathic philosophy behind it.

We can have the 'ol swabble about whether or not you are a real DO if you use/don't use OMT-but we all know that most DOs do not (at least regularly). I'd rather not spin my wheels.

Good, I don't want to spin your wheels either. 😉

We all have the individual choice to follow the majority or decide to excell in the profession of our choosing.

I find it interesting that in your mind, the choice is either excelling in OMM, or presumably not excelling while doing something else. Is this really the dichotomy you're trying to make? I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but please clarify this for me.

Now that I'm in residency-I notice pts. pay a lot of attention to the initials after my name when its their family member I'm taking care of-I get the question all the time: what kind of doctor is a "D.O." , how do you provide an effective answer to that unless you have embraced what makes us unique? Plenty of MDs are 'holistic', but very few can lay hands on a patient and diagnose/treat structural components of disease.

every specialty, including pathology, can incorporate what we learn in OMT/OMM to be better physicians.

Not really. It's tough to put your hands on patients when you don't see them all that much (some more than others, I realize). However, you can be an osteopath without ever seeing the patient, just like you can excel in your profession without being an OMM schill.

 

[macman]

I find it interesting that in your mind, the choice is either excelling in OMM, or presumably not excelling while doing something else. Is this really the dichotomy you're trying to make? I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but please clarify this for me.

Happy to clarify: excelling in medicine (or any profession) means you persue every aspect of your education and training opportunities and give then all 110%. For example, just b/c someone may dislike pathology, if they were to give that subject poor effort, that would make them a less than ideal physician. I had a few classmates who felt passing was good enough and would study only enough to get by-I think that is the wrong attitiude to have when peoples lives are at stake. So I place OMM/OMT under that umbrella-if you pick a DO school, have an open mind, show up to class, and give it all you have. Thats my point. The best physicians I've worked with are superb in their own specialty, but also have an excellent working knowledge of many other aspects of medicine. I would be equally critical of someone who specializes in OMM and does nopt know their medicine, etc.

 

[bones]

Well, it seems that i have been misunderstood. I will clarify here.

I read this and wonder if you grasp exactly what osteopathy really is.

I have no doubt that he recognizes what osteopathy is, but I do feel (from his post) that he overemphasizes OMM's place in the profession.

You did start your original reply by implying i have no idea what osteopathy is... which i find interesting considering I'm a fellow and I've dedicated the last year to just that. You also proceed to bash OMM fellows-

And don't worry if the OMM fellows don't like it when you question how some of the stuff they swear by actually works.

Any OMM fellow worth their salt will welcome questions. Osteopathy is NOT a religion, it is an art and a science- with a foundation in clinical experience and knowledge of anatomy, physiology, and pathophysiology. No osteopath should make claims they can't back up with clinical cases and a solid anatomical explanation. I LOVE when people question- because I have answers and cases to back up everything i do, and that is why i am as successful with patients as i am. If a student's questions help them to understand the relevance of osteopathy in a particular area of their medical practice- in the coming years it may help countless numbers of their patients.

Unfortunately, there are a few problems that osteopathy is struggling with now. Perhaps the biggest is poor numbers of OMM faculty to draw from (keep in mind the most talented osteopaths are out there making well over 300k per year with their hands in private practice...), and thus poor student/faculty ratios in OMM lab, and poor understanding of the osteopathic material by many students... after all, if you dont feel balanced ligamentus tension release a muscle spasm in seconds under your hands the first time you are exposed to it, it is possible you could go through your whole first year never knowing what it is supposed to feel like or how to do it and faking your way through. Some of these students then assume, since they can never feel it, that it is bogus, something made up by the faculty. Then, many are never exposed to it again during their whole 3rd and 4th years unless they choose electives in this area. With more schools opening every day (for which the AOA is guilty), talented osteopaths dedicated to teaching are pulled thinner and thinner.

In this atmosphere, a student who isn't going out of their way to learn osteopathic diagnostic reasoning and osteopathic philosophy from the start will probably barely learn it at all unless they fall under the wing of a particularly talented or giving faculty member. It is easier to memorize a few OMM techniques or counterstrain points and be a technician, or barely even do that and end up a MD with a DO degree. OMM technicians and wanna-be MD's both weaken our profession greatly, and those who know they want to do one or the other should save themselves the time and apply to chiro school or MD school. The good news is, those who work outside of class and take the time to shadow still have the opportunity to be outstanding osteopaths.

Osteopathy takes work. simple as that.

San_Juan_sun:
I am not here to criticize your MCAT scores, or make fun of you for not getting your first choice medical school. I am not here to make you or anyone else feel uncomfortable for choosing the DO route. I am not saying and i have never said neck popping or memorizing an OMM book is required to be a good DO. I would say that developing your hands and learning the mechancial principles of functional anatomy is critical to being a good osteopath, however... and this usually takes work outside the curriculum- and continued application during 3rd and 4th year without much supervision. Those who are just barely doing enough to get by have missed the boat.

The main point of all this is: for those of you trying to decide whether to apply to DO schools- please give it some thought. Educate yourself about osteopathic philosophy, and see if this fits how you want to practice for the coming years. Decide if you are willing to put in the time above and beyond what is required in OMM class so that you can put it all together and be something far more than just a wanna-be MD that can pop a neck. It will make a huge difference in your practice and your personal confidence wearing a DO on your labcoat. When you astonish your MD attendings with what you can do with their most difficult and critically ill patients, dont be surprised if they exclaim they wish they had gone to DO school themselves so they could do what you do.


Osteopathy is a beautiful art, and a very powerful approach to medicine, no matter your chosen specialty. Best of luck to all of you who choose this path.


P.S. if you want to read more on osteopathic philosophy, I recommend going back to the source. Read A.T. Stills Philosophy and Mechanical Principles of Osteopathy. That will put you well on your way. (A free, full-text copy of this book is available at http://www.interlinea.org/atstill.html)

 

[bones]

As a psychiatrist you could essentially use bits and pieces of cranial. for example, if you have a child that is aggressive in nature you can check for rotation of thier parietals/temporal bones i beileve. and i'm sure there are other things that you could do, but the question is how practical are those things for everyday practice??

i guess you'd have to really believe in cranial also which is a whole other topic in itself........cause frankly it sounds like a bunch of bull$hit sometimes.

Not to get off topic, but i think this deserves a response.

Psychiatry patients are some of the most helped by an osteopathic approach to their condition. Unfortunately if you get board certified in psychiatry there are certain rules about not touching your patients (they worry about transferrence/countertransferrence issues... though this isn't probably as big a deal for those of us who don't plan to use a lot of psychoanalysis in our approach to patients).

Quite honestly, patients with borderline personality need more talk therapy first to learn about boundaries- and for most psych patients you should probably have a nurse in the room while you have your hands on them to avoid legal issues- but working around these issues is quite possible- and worth it if you have the skill. In many cases, you can achive in 2 or 3 treatments what would take YEARS of talk therapy, simply by cutting out the physiologic underpinnings of their psychological condition. anxiety and anger almost always seem to be tied to specific muscles that stay in spasm 24/7 in these patients- if you break this, you break the whole cycle (once they can sleep soundly again the relaxation may maintain itself).

Additionally, touching patients seems to break down the walls of separation and allow for trust that sometimes takes weeks of talking at a distance to achieve.

In young children, I have found ADHD, and a variety of developmental delays are very quickly remedied by a cranial approach, but I admit I cannot fully explain the mechanism of how this works. Cranial compressions seem common in ADHD and self-mutilation behaviors- and with a single release you often see a very different set of behaviors out of the child.

The mechanism taught in class is still just a theory- a theory that seems to work very well in the right hands... but still a theory, built on presumptions (some of which have been verified, others which are still questionable) I personally am against cranial being tested on boards, and i would like to see more inter-rater reliability studies before they teach the Sutherland model as required classtime.

All this said, there is no doubt in my mind that dramatic personality and behavior changes can occur very quickly in children with skilled cranial treatment. I have seen it too many times, and seen it with my own hands. If you plan on working with pediatric patients, I strongly encourage you to get a good cranial education- just keep a healthy skepticism about everything they say regarding the "hows" and the "whys" of whats going on.

 

[DOctorJay]

There are some schools that don't emphasize OMM; Harvard, Brown, Johns Hopkins, U of Vermont, U of KY, and so on and so on.

Actually, Harvard has weekend OMM courses set up for their PM&R residents taught by their DO residents. Google it!

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Happy to clarify: excelling in medicine (or any profession) means you persue every aspect of your education and training opportunities and give then all 110%. For example, just b/c someone may dislike pathology, if they were to give that subject poor effort, that would make them a less than ideal physician. I had a few classmates who felt passing was good enough and would study only enough to get by-I think that is the wrong attitiude to have when peoples lives are at stake. So I place OMM/OMT under that umbrella-if you pick a DO school, have an open mind, show up to class, and give it all you have. Thats my point. The best physicians I've worked with are superb in their own specialty, but also have an excellent working knowledge of many other aspects of medicine. I would be equally critical of someone who specializes in OMM and does nopt know their medicine, etc.

Thank you. While I certainly don't agree with some of your previous post, you seemed rational enough that you deserved the opportunity to clearly delineate this point.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I am not here to criticize your MCAT scores, or make fun of you for not getting your first choice medical school.

This is good, as you have no idea what my MCAT score was (it was more than decent for a DO school). I suppose one of the main things I sense from some in this thread is an unwillingness to honestly accept that people go to DO schools for many different reasons.

I am not here to make you or anyone else feel uncomfortable for choosing the DO route.

One of my main objections are the assumptions that persons who don't dig OMM are merely pessimistic, or that they only put in the minimum to "get by". If you were my fellow, partly responsible for my instruction and grading, I would feel "uncomfortable" with you if I was struggling with OMM. Or am I reading this quote incorrectly?

If as a pre-med you already know you wont be putting much effort into learning osteopathic principles, save yourself the hundreds of hours of classtime and save your future classmates from your pessimism when it doesnt work for you (which it rarely does for those who put in only the minimum to get by).

But back to your latest post:

I am not saying and i have never said neck popping or memorizing an OMM book is required to be a good DO. I would say that developing your hands and learning the mechancial principles of functional anatomy is critical to being a good osteopath, however... and this usually takes work outside the curriculum. Those who are just barely doing enough to get by have missed the boat.

I'm all for developing palpatory skills and learning functional anatomy. But again, I don't buy the argument that people who struggle are necessarily "just barely doing enough" or "missing the boat".

You had previously mentioned that you "LOVE" it when students ask questions. Do they love it when you tell them they aren't doing enough?

We all know about OMM's problems, so we don't need to rehash them here. However, I find it incredibly ignorant to pass off these students as slackers because they don't buy everything hook, line, and sinker. And I ferverently believe that the LAST thing OMM research and teaching needs is more intellectual dishonesty. (Not saying you are dishonest, just speaking generally.)

The main point of all this is: for those of you trying to decide whether to apply to DO schools- please give it some thought. Educate yourself about osteopathic philosophy, and see if this fits how you want to practice for the coming years. Decide if you are willing to put in the time above and beyond what is required in OMM class so that you can put it all together and be something far more than just a wanna-be MD that can pop a neck. It will make a huge difference in your practice and your personal confidence wearing a DO on your labcoat. When you astonish your MD attendings with what you can do with their most difficult and critically ill patients, dont be surprised if they exclaim they wish they had gone to DO school themselves so they could do what you do.

I certainly agree that applicants should look before they leap. However, I also think they should realize that there are lot of different kinds of osteopaths out there, and that it's OK to have questions about certain aspects of OMM.

Lastly, my entire point could be boiled down to one idea: that the philosophy of osteopathy is NOT entirely equivalent with OMM. OMM is merely one of the outgrowths of that philosophy (although it is certainly closely allied). And I think it's important for students to realize anyone who tries to sift out the "true osteopaths" from the false is pounding sand.

Anyways, some thoughts while I'm on call. 🙂

 

[RajMahal]

Health care and industry is run on money and on who can provide what services to which patients in the most efficient manner.
I don't want this person for my doctor...
If two professions are just duplicating services then eventually one will be eliminated.
medicine isn't two professions, it's one profession with two branches, and there's no reason we can't co-exist.


For instance issues of allostatic load and psychological issues also considered "holistic" are best addressed when there is physical contract between the physician and patient. And as far as OMM only being effective for a fraction of patients; i don't know any medicine that doesn't have increased effectiveness when delivered more efficiently to biological tissues. Vasomotor tone can be reduced by correcting sympathetic hyperstimulation from thoracic and rib cage dysfunction.(not exactly a religious epiphany but effective nonetheless) Now how many patients may benefit from this, as well as OMM to other areas, for other reasons? Hint: more than a fraction.

news flash--i might believe it, and you might believe it, but this is all speculation and conjecture until you can prove it via evidence based medicine. while you might argue that your medicines are delivered more efficiently (and efficiency seems to be your measure of being a good physician), can you prove it with studies that will stand the test of peer-review? if you're such an adamant defender of OMM, why don't you do some research and validate it in the eyes of the many skeptics, which include not only allopaths, but many osteopaths as well.
I might not have had a perfect GPA or aced the MCAT like you, but i went to an Osteopathic school because they're the ones who gave me a chance to learn medicine and become a doctor, which has been my dream since i was a kid. Chances are my patients won't question why i chose Osteopathic medicine, and nobody else's opinion really matters to me.
I'm proud to be a DO and i think that being an osteopathic physician encompasses much more than manipulation. The days of "set bones, shun pills" are long gone.

 

[bones]

You had previously mentioned that you "LOVE" it when students ask questions. Do they love it when you tell them they aren't doing enough?

again, you misunderstand-

For one, my fellowship year is over (in my MSIV/5th year atm), but I didnt go around beating students who weren't studying hard enough (lol...). I let students with interest and/or skepticism come to me with questions about an osteopathic approach to medical cases, and i would answer those questions to the best of my ability. If i didnt know the answer i would often spend a few hours reading on the anatomic/phyisiologic underpinnings of the mechanism or disease process and at least give them a solid place to start their own study. Many opted to work with me for hours and hours and hours outside of class to advance their skills and their osteopathic thought process, all of which was material that wouldn't be "covered on the test". Of course, I was also assigned to help those that were failing to try and get them to the "barely getting by" level- and several of these students went on to be some of the strongest osteopaths in the class once their interest was sparked.

I had many students randomly come up to me upset that other students were getting "favored treatment" and my answer was that I let students come to me. my time is too valuable to waste trying to sway "the beliefs" of those who dont go out of their way to learn. I only bother speaking on SDN because many students read this, and so few know what osteopathy is actually about (including DO's in practice). I hope that my experience helps some of them.

Again, I encourage skepticism. I bust the balls of sudents and faculty that swallow osteopathic dogma whole without critical thought. Very easy to do too, since much of it is based on science more than 50 years old. You can apply the osteopathic thought process to the science of today, however- using sources like Up-to-Date to reason about what your hands tell you instead of only using historical texts or here-say from professors.

We all know about OMM's problems, so we don't need to rehash them here. However, I find it incredibly ignorant to pass off these students as slackers because they don't buy everything hook, line, and sinker. And I ferverently believe that the LAST thing OMM research and teaching needs is more intellectual dishonesty.

yes, as you could see from what i've written in my previous posts and this one, I whole heartedly encourage intellectual dishonesty and I label all who have intellectual curiosity as "slackers".

<sigh>
😀

Lastly, my entire point could be boiled down to one idea: that the philosophy of osteopathy is NOT entirely equivalent with OMM. OMM is merely one of the outgrowths of that philosophy (although it is certainly closely allied). And I think it's important for students to realize anyone who tries to sift out the "true osteopaths" from the false is pounding sand.

I agree that osteopathy is not equal to OMM, as you would know by reading my prior posts. OMM as most students conceive of it is simply a bunch of muscle stretch and joint pop techniques, and this really has nothing more to do with osteopathy than a babinski reflex, IV insertion skills, or the ability to suture well. Mechanical techniques do not an osteopath make. The meat is in the diagnosis, and directly addressing the diagnosis with minimal intervention- focusing on figuring out how to allow the body's natural mechanisms to do the brunt of the work rather than working independently of them (and often ignorant of them).

At many DO schools the only place they teach osteopathic reasoning is via the OMM course (which is unfortunate indeed). Do your best to learn it that way, but your true learning will come from shadowing (ideally shadowing those in private practice who use osteopathic mechanical principles and osteopathic philosophy in their chosen specialty) and, of course, your best teachers are your patients. If it were up to me, diagnostic palpatory skill would be taught along side the physical exam skills first year (with heavy of emphasis placed on both), functional anatomy would be taught alongside gross anatomy, osteopathic philosophy would be its own course (and a substantial one based on medicine, not a hippie hand-holding flakefest), and osteopathic reasoning would be taught alongside each clinical supspecialty.

"Somatic dysfunction" as a distinct entity would not enter into the picture. Separating "osteopathic" mechanical problems from the rest of medicine and using a different language to describe them is a huge issue our educational process faces today. Osteopathy is far more than a course on OMM, and far more than a medical subspecialty for those who want to treat low back pain and neck problems- it is an entirely different approach to healthcare.

But alas, i do not design the curriculums (you can relax now).


Have a fun on call.
michael 😎

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

again, you misunderstand-

Or, perhaps, you didn't catch the rhetorical device. 😉

yes, as you could see from what i've written in my previous posts and this one, I whole heartedly encourage intellectual dishonesty and I label all who have intellectual curiosity as "slackers".

Without question, you have issues with people who don't get into OMM like you do. How many times have you asserted that they "are just trying to get by"?

I agree that osteopathy is not equal to OMM, as you would know by reading my prior posts. OMM as most students conceive of it is simply a bunch of muscle stretch and joint pop techniques...

Osteopathy is far more than a course on OMM, and far more than a medical subspecialty for those who want to treat low back pain and neck problems...

Finally, at long last, you agree with my entire point. Although I do find it interesting that you still insinuate that you have a somehow elevated view of what the profession is about. But whatever floats your boat I guess.

 

[bones]

Without question, you have issues with people who don't get into OMM like you do. How many times have you asserted that they "are just trying to get by"?

🙄 read it again bro.

Finally, at long last, you agree with my entire point. Although I do find it interesting that you still insinuate that you have a somehow elevated view of what the profession is about. But whatever floats your boat I guess.

lol you are hilarious. I have been making these same points since the beginning of this post- and in every other thread i have posted in over the last several years. My point hasn't changed, only your understanding of it has.

go get some sleep. seriously. 😉

Unfortunately im going away for a few days. I'll pick up where we left off next weekend if there is more to say (or before if i can, but i dont think i will have computer access). If not, it has been fun.

 

[WestcoastMedicine]

It is true that not all osteopathic physicians use OMT. If you do decide to enroll in an osteopathic school, you will learn that even though you are not using OMT as an adjunct treatment for your patient, some of the examination techniques can/will help you emensely with diagnosis. We are trained in exam techniques that go above and beyond an allopathic scope and may be able to diagnosis certain conditions using less "tecnology". Now I may stand to be corrected since I have only been in school for two months, but this is what I can already gather. It is also important to note that if you attended and Osteopathic School, even if you plan on doing an allopathic residency, YOU MUST PASS THE COMLEX TO BE GRANTED YOUR DEGREE, regardless of which residency program you go into. So it may seem like a good idea if your not into OMM to go to school that does not emphasize it, but you may regret this when your sitting for the COMLEX.

 

[OMMFan]

However, outside of OMT classes and the extracurricular stuff there is no mention of OMT here at UMDNJ so far. The basic science classes teach basic sciences. It comes down to what you want, as does most things here. If you want more OMT you can get it by asking for an OMT preceptor for your clinical time, joining the club and heading over to the student OMT clinic.

Hi Nate,

The UMDNJ web site mentions that "osteopathic manipulation is integrated throughout the curriculum." As a student at UMDNJ, what do you think this means? Could it be that this doesn't begin until 2nd year?

I intend to use OMM in my osteopathic medical practice (it's one of the biggest reasons I want to be a DO and never applied to allopathic medical schools). Being able to obtain adequate OMM training is an essential feature of whatever school I attend!

Thanks for letting me know how I can get sufficient OMM training at UMDNJ. Your posts are among the many things I've read about UMDNJ that have made me eager to attend. It's now tied with another school for my top choice.

Now I'll just cross my fingers that I get an interview. Ms. Watkins said I should know within a few days.

Thanks again for your help and influence.

 

[Nate]

We have OMM on Wednesday afternoon in first year, but next year there is a new curriculum so I am not exactly sure how it would work. We also have an OMM anatomy class the first semester since we don't take Gross Anatomy until the spring. Other than that there is a very active UAAO (which is the OMM club) that holds meetings in the lab on Tuesday afternoons and there are tables through the school to practice on. There is an OMM component to your rotations third year and student clinics to participate in; you can also request that your preceptor, whom you shadow for the first two years, be an OMM using physician. Like I said, you can do as much as you like or you can just go to class on Wednesday afternoons, it is up to you. We have great open minded professors.

 

[OMMFan]

We have OMM on Wednesday afternoon in first year, but next year there is a new curriculum so I am not exactly sure how it would work.

Thanks, Nate. Is the new curriculum OMM-specific or more general? Where can I find out more about the curriculum changes?

I will be sure to ask for a preceptor who uses OMM. It sounds like I'd be able to get what I need in OMM training and I'm certain I would get a top notch education at UMDNJ.

A friend called today and asked me what qualities I like about my top choice schools. I was able to give a long, detailed list of what draws me to UMDNJ, while I had very little to say about the other school (despite the fact that I'd just had an informative conversation with a really nice student at that school). My friend was struck by how excited and passionate I sounded when I talked about UMDNJ. I guess I should take that as a clear sign and hope that the school and I are as good a fit in person as we are on paper!

Thanks again.

 

[Nate]

Dean Krueger would be the person to email about the curriculum; his email should be on the website. Make sure you ask specific questions so you get good answers. I am glad you are excited about UMDNJ, it is a great place.

 

[OMMFan]

Thanks, Nate. I will e-mail Dean Krueger.

In other news, I just heard from Paula Watkins. I got an interview! I am so excited!

Paula answered several of my questions about the new curriculum and gave me a couple of names of potential OMT preceptors. I told her how much the UMDNJ students I've "met" online rock.

 

[timtye78]

or you can earn the degree, and never pick up a book on 'bouncing the cranial impulses off the ventricles to increase the nutrient exchange btw the csf and the tissues' or 'correcting the sacral nutations'...and become an anesthesiologist. hehe.

 

[yanky5]

NYCOM does a lot of OMM stuff. They give you a written test and a separate OMM hands on practical (ouch) every month. Plus, OMM stuff is included on the written tests.

Personally, I think the OMM stuff is cool but I am fed up with it because a lot of the tecniques require a lot of practice to do, and you will be lacking the time to do all the practice you really need to master them.