Which is more competitive OB vs Gen Surg?

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

I am trying to decide between the two. Thinking OB will be my back-up since I received a pass in GS.

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[Espressso]

From what I understand, OB is not an ideal backup. It's relatively competitive as a primary application, let alone having it as a backup.

 

[sab3156]

You have to dedicate yourself to one or the other. If you're not competitive for one, you're likely not competitive for the other. If you're competitive for both, go all-in. Ob/Gyn is not really that easy to match into (especially if you're using it as a backup), as DOs aren't getting interviews like the MD side. If you divide your time between both and if one specialty gets any hint that you're using them as a backup, you're going to have a rough time.

If you truly love surgery, I strongly suggest that you keep your mind open to considering Ob/Gyn over Gen Surg as your specialty of choice. Ob/Gyn has some of the most fascinating and difficult surgeries in the entire medical world, particularly if you do a fellowship in Female Pelvic Medicine and Reconstructive Surgery (also known as Urogynecology).

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Gen surg is more competitive, but OB isn't far behind it. OB is a poor backup for surgery.

 

[Rekt]

I agree that general surgery is more competitive, but I actually feel like obgyn is less friendly to DOs. Just from my anecdotal experience.

 

[risus_sardonicus]

I agree that general surgery is more competitive, but I actually feel like obgyn is less friendly to DOs. Just from my anecdotal experience.

Lol. This is why you shouldn’t post anecdotal experiences.

Check charting the outcomes, Gen surg is by far significantly tougher and exhibits a much stronger bias against DOs. In fact this might be the first time I’m hearing of a “DO bias” in OB. Unless your talking about top 20 programs which have a DO bias regardless of specialty, I don’t think there really is any bias at all.


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[BorntobeDO?]

Feels like this was discussed pretty extensively in a post about another poster. OB is not a great backup specialty unless your boards are a good bit above average (240+) and your school doesn’t put 4th year aways in your MSPE or transcript. If all the above is true, sure go ahead and dual apply. Remember both specialties see the same application, so you can’t be specific in that app. You get unique personal statements, but not applications.

 

[libertyyne]

General surgery is more competitive.

 

[zero0]

Lol. This is why you shouldn’t post anecdotal experiences.

Check charting the outcomes, Gen surg is by far significantly tougher and exhibits a much stronger bias against DOs. In fact this might be the first time I’m hearing of a “DO bias” in OB. Unless your talking about top 20 programs which have a DO bias regardless of specialty, I don’t think there really is any bias at all.


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The most recent charting outcomes we have are from 2018. A lot can change in 2 application cycles. Anecdotal data from applicants who recently went through the interview cycle may be far more accurate at this point.

Idk anything about OB but as someone who just applied to anesthesia I can tell you the current state of the specialty is nothing like the 2018 data would have you believe. It has become much more competitive out here.

 

[slowthai]

Idk anything about OB but as someone who just applied to anesthesia I can tell you the current state of the specialty is nothing like the 2018 data would have you believe. It has become much more competitive out here.

Surprising. Why do you think this is the case? Med school expansion? Perceived lifestyle of gas?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Surprising. Why do you think this is the case? Med school expansion? Perceived lifestyle of gas?

Let’s wait until we get some hard data with this next charting outcomes. I am very skeptical of this massive increase in anesthesia competitiveness.

 

[MrTaco92]

The most recent charting outcomes we have are from 2018. A lot can change in 2 application cycles. Anecdotal data from applicants who recently went through the interview cycle may be far more accurate at this point.

Idk anything about OB but as someone who just applied to anesthesia I can tell you the current state of the specialty is nothing like the 2018 data would have you believe. It has become much more competitive out here.

Are there numbers on how many applicants per spot there are this year so far compared to previous years? I really feel like everyone says this about their specialty of interest when they're going through the application process

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Surprising. Why do you think this is the case? Med school expansion? Perceived lifestyle of gas?

It’s pay combined with the expansion of students who don’t want primary care. It’s the same thing that bumped up psych. It doesn’t really matter about the specific reasons, but residencies that are not expanding quickly (PMR, rads, anesthesia, psych) are all getting a bump. I expect Nuero to do the same soon along with eventually peds. When there isn’t that many residency’s and you increase the number of students applying the competitiveness goes up. I would say pathology also, but they are just so down in the dumps, I don’t see that happening for awhile. The great majority of new programs (volume, not just percentage) are FM/IM and ER.

 

[zero0]

Surprising. Why do you think this is the case? Med school expansion? Perceived lifestyle of gas?

Likely a combination of things. Merger, more interest, increased competitiveness of surgical subs and more people applying gas as backup, etc. Anyone going into anesthesiology for lifestyle will either be severely disappointed or making under 300k.

Are there numbers on how many applicants per spot there are this year so far compared to previous years? I really feel like everyone says this about their specialty of interest when they're going through the application process

The raw data for 2019 is out and shows a record number of applicants per spot. Tough to gauge cuz surgical sub applicants using it for backup throw off the numbers but even with that factored in competitiveness has likely gone up.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Are there numbers on how many applicants per spot there are this year so far compared to previous years? I really feel like everyone says this about their specialty of interest when they're going through the application process

There’s some truth to this. But people are getting crazy out here. I have met multiple students who are going to 20+ interviews. On the flip side there are students with pitiful amounts of interviews. It’s a feast or famine kind of thing.

 

[libertyyne]

Likely a combination of things. Merger, more interest, increased competitiveness of surgical subs and more people applying gas as backup, etc. Anyone going into anesthesiology for lifestyle will either be severely disappointed or making under 300k.

The raw data for 2019 is out and shows a record number of applicants per spot. Tough to gauge cuz surgical sub applicants using it for backup throw off the numbers but even with that factored in competitiveness has likely gone up.

yes a record number of applicants with a record number of spots in anasthesia as well. The ratio of applicant to spot remained the same at .9 from 2018 and in 2019.

 

[Neopolymath]

One must also consider that anesthesiology, like most average specialties, has some terrible programs so when people say it's more competitive they are generally speaking of matching into a non-dumpster fire program not matching the specialty in general. In anesthesiology, this definitely matters more due to the nature of the skillset compared to any primary care specialty for example.

 

[slowthai]

Anyone going into anesthesiology for lifestyle will either be severely disappointed or making under 300k.

Yeah, that's exactly why I said "perceived" lifestyle haha. I think it's been ingrained in most that gas is a lifestyle specialty secondary to the ROAD phenomenon. That may have been the case in the past, but it's just not true anymore. The only one that still makes serious bank right out of the gate AND has a chill lifestyle seems to be derm. You can maybe make an argument for ophtho too, depending. What do you think, @sab3156? I've seen a lot of low salaries for fresh ophtho grads. Granted, that's the case in more saturated areas; but that's in like every big city. Like it appears to be saturated everywhere, lol.

 

[sab3156]

Yeah, that's exactly why I said "perceived" lifestyle haha. I think it's been ingrained in most that gas is a lifestyle specialty secondary to the ROAD phenomenon. That may have been the case in the past, but it's just not true anymore. The only one that still makes serious bank right out of the gate AND has a chill lifestyle seems to be derm. You can maybe make an argument for ophtho too, depending. What do you think, @sab3156? I've seen a lot of low salaries for fresh ophtho grads. Granted, that's the case in more saturated areas; but that's in like every big city. Like it appears to be saturated everywhere, lol.

You're right - starting salaries for ophthalmology can be low. The starting salaries post-fellowship are usually much higher than post-residency. I think people who are going into ophthalmology for the lifestyle may be fine not doing a fellowship and they are fine with starting salaries that are lower, and those who are going into it for academic or salary purposes definitely do fellowships.

However, the ceiling for ophthalmology can be huge, for even non-fellowship trained ophthalmologist. High income ceilings are more likely for subspecialties like Retina (both medical and surgical) and Cornea. Starting salaries are also great in these subspecialties. It's not unusual to find Retina doctors pulling in salaries of well above $1mill per year at busy practices, and it remains one of the highest paying specialties in medicine. These are the factors that let people ignore low starting salary if they're actually going into this for the money.

 

[Sardonix]

yes a record number of applicants with a record number of spots in anasthesia as well. The ratio of applicant to spot remained the same at .9 from 2018 and in 2019.

For real, like half of my class and their mothers are applying gas this year.

 

[alprazoslam]

If you wanna get rich move to bfe and do cardio, open up 500 macdonalds $$$$& profit

 

[deleted859689]

Dang, was thinking of going gas -> CCM. Guess I'll go IM -> CCM/Pulm

 

[deleted898021]

Dang, was thinking of going gas -> CCM. Guess I'll go IM -> CCM/Pulm

I honestly think it will be easier overall if you apply broadly to match Gas then trying to match Pulm/CC fellowship as that fellowship is one of the more competitive IM sub specialties.

 

[deleted859689]

I honestly think it will be easier overall if you apply broadly to match Gas then trying to match Pulm/CC fellowship as that fellowship is one of the more competitive IM sub specialties.

Is it less competitive to match CCM from Gas?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Dang, was thinking of going gas -> CCM. Guess I'll go IM -> CCM/Pulm

Why on earth would you make any sort of judgement of what you want to do based on this thread?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Is it less competitive to match CCM from Gas?

Yes, but most people don’t do it cause it’s a pay cut. And at the big places the IM/CC/Pulm guys will try and give some trouble about privileges as well.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Yes, but most people don’t do it cause it’s a pay cut. And at the big places the IM/CC/Pulm guys will try and give some trouble about privileges as well.

The university I used to work at used anesthesia ccm to run all of their ICUs except for transplants. Pay is low and burnout is high. Look at CCM very carefully before applying.

 

[alprazoslam]

If you want to do pulm cc go the IM route. Why would you spend 3 years passing gas then to switch to a medicine specialty

 

[Angus Avagadro]

If you want to do pulm cc go the IM route. Why would you spend 3 years passing gas then to switch to a medicine specialty

Because anesthesia is very much about critical care. Most everything in the PACU and ICU ,came from the OR. Ekg monitoring, invasive monitoring, end tidal gas monitoring, mixed venous O2, etc. The intensivist doesnt come with the patient to the OR and manage them. The anesthesiologist does.

 

[deleted859689]

Why on earth would you make any sort of judgement of what you want to do based on this thread?

Not making any solid judgement, just thinking about the future.

If you want to do pulm cc go the IM route. Why would you spend 3 years passing gas then to switch to a medicine specialty

Spend non CCM in the OR instead of the clinic I guess.

 

[libertyyne]

For real, like half of my class and their mothers are applying gas this year.

the point was, that even with increase in the number of applicants the seats have also increased proportionally. Anasthesia is no more competitive than it was in say 2014. This is the reason anecdotes are problematic , because it is possible for it to seem like things have gotten harder, but I always take that with a grain of salt because its not like these applicants have been applying to the same residency for the past 5 years.

 

[alprazoslam]

Not making any solid judgement, just thinking about the future.



Spend non CCM in the OR instead of the clinic I guess.

I feel it would be better used learning ddx than passing gas but that’s just me (ms4) so I may be wrong

 

[BorntobeDO?]

the point was, that even with increase in the number of applicants the seats have also increased proportionally. Anasthesia is no more competitive than it was in say 2014. This is the reason anecdotes are problematic , because it is possible for it to seem like things have gotten harder, but I always take that with a grain of salt because its not like these applicants have been applying to the same residency for the past 5 years.

Same amount of applicants per spots isn’t the same thing as being just as non competitive as before. Sure you could go to UCF/HCA’s new anesthesia residency in Ocala which has 1/3rd of its rotations 2 hours away in orlando fairly easily. But that program isn’t the type of thing people where matching ten years ago.

Also you have to look at the mix of applicants. Psych had similar amounts of people apply this year as last, but the number of USMDs and DOs went up while IMGs went down. That doesn’t make it easier.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

The university I used to work at used anesthesia ccm to run all of their ICUs except for transplants. Pay is low and burnout is high. Look at CCM very carefully before applying.

I agree that if anything anesthesia is well equipped to handle a crashing patient better than IM. However, if we are trying to get to the root cause of the crashing, I suspect IM might be better.

 

[zero0]

yes a record number of applicants with a record number of spots in anasthesia as well. The ratio of applicant to spot remained the same at .9 from 2018 and in 2019.

As others pointed out I wouldn't read into that. Numbers are tricky. I'd rather go on what dozens of PDs have told me. Anyway this thread has been derailed enough.