which stethoscope to gift

Started by Alioth
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Alioth

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hi all 🙂

I am new, and from Italy

I am reading the forum from about a month, cause i viewed some interesting topic concerning stethoscopes (and cause it's nice to see how universities work outside)

ok so, this is the question: I am a 2nd year medicine student, and my girlfriend is too :laugh:
my idea is to gift her a stetho for christmas…. 😍

but I don't know which one :\

here the possibilities..

-littmann classic 2SE for 106$ comprehensive engranving and shipment

-welch allyn tycos harvey elite for 222$ " " " " "

the cardio 3 costs more or less like the welch, and i prefer the welch one

ok we (students) have auscultation skills like a leaf, i know..but it's a gift and it should be a nice gift, so i can't buy the famous "cup with a string in it" 😛 (i own the cheap omron sprague 👍)
 
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I'm a fan of Littmann. Cardio is fab, but Classic is good enough for med students.

hi all 🙂

I am new, and from Italy

I am reading the forum from about a month, cause i viewed some interesting topic concerning stethoscopes (and cause it's nice to see how universities work outside)

ok so, this is the question: I am a 2nd year medicine student, and my girlfriend is too :laugh:
my idea is to gift her a stetho for christmas…. 😍

but I don't know which one :\

here the possibilities..

-littmann classic 2SE for 106$ comprehensive engranving and shipment

-welch allyn tycos harvey elite for 222$ " " " " "

the cardio 3 costs more or less like the welch, and i prefer the welch one

ok we (students) have auscultation skills like a leaf, i know..but it's a gift and it should be a nice gift, so i can't buy the famous "cup with a string in it" 😛 (i own the cheap omron sprague 👍)
 
essentially it depends on how many years she can own the stetho..
in italy we study for 6 years, so probably the life span (of the stethoscope hehe) could be an hint..

I mean, if I purchase the welch, and she has to trash it after 6, 8 years it's a nonsense… Should be better to buy the cheaper one for university and at the end we will see…

Whether the welch is…lol, like "a diamond is …forever", I could make an higher effort to buy the best now
 
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Unless you leave it in the car or it gets stolen most stethoscopes last quite some time. You may need to replace the tubing though, especially if you wear it around your neck a lot.
 
well eventually it's a question of money and what kind of gift want to make

boh.. 😕
 
Do a search. There are a couple threads that go really in depth with stethoscopes. I have a Littman Cardiology III and am getting Welch-Allyn Harvey Elite (for free).
 
I recommend this website: http://steeles.com/catalog/cata_stetho.html

they also do engraving. Make sure that you click on the student package.

I really like the welch allyn harvey elite. Many people like the Littmann Cardiology III ( I don't like the tunable diaphragm that much, but it is a good stethoscope.) Many people like the old Littmann Cardiology II's (they are very hard to find). You cannot go wrong with any of those. I personally would recommend the welch allyn harvey elite, but it doesn't really matter. I like the cardiology stethoscope much better than the cheaper ones; I would recommend the ones above.
 
I recommend this website: http://steeles.com/catalog/cata_stetho.html

they also do engraving. Make sure that you click on the student package.

I really like the welch allyn harvey elite. Many people like the Littmann Cardiology III ( I don't like the tunable diaphragm that much, but it is a good stethoscope.) Many people like the old Littmann Cardiology II's (they are very hard to find). You cannot go wrong with any of those. I personally would recommend the welch allyn harvey elite, but it doesn't really matter. I like the cardiology stethoscope much better than the cheaper ones; I would recommend the ones above.

You can take the pediatric diaphragm off of the cardiology III and make it the standard diaphragm/bell combo. That is what I did for the sake of OSCE stuff.
 
uhm..i am wondering…how is made the 2 lumen tube of cardiology 3 and welch allyn harvey?

there is a single cavity in the chestpiece, a single exit from the chestpiece (the stem) where the tube is fixed in.

So the sound splits in the tube, after the stem, when it reaches the separation?
 
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uhm..i am wondering…how is made the 2 lumen tube of cardiology 3 and welch allyn harvey?

there is a single cavity in the chestpiece, a single exit from the chestpiece (the stem) where the tube is fixed in.

So the sound splits in the tube, after the stem, when it reaches the separation?

Yes.
 
mmm so if i would buy the tubing for welch allyn or cardio III, i would close one of the 2 stems of my sprague rappaport like this:
13kM

and would connect the tubing to the remaining stem i would solve the artifacts problem? could be nice
 
What? Why would you do that?

Youre connecting the Welch Allyn or Littmann tubing to one of the stems of a R-S that you have? Are you simply trying to avoid the artifact of the tubes of the R-S rubbing together?

No, you'd never create and airtight seal with that extra stem dangling in the wind. An airtight seal is essential.

1. The headset/tubing isnt much cheaper than a brand new scope. Just get a new Welch Allyn, the rigging job youre trying isnt worth it.

2. If you want to stay with the R-S, you can tape the tubes together in a few places, or buy a nametag for the R-S (with a figure of 8 shaped clip) for $3 which would keep the tubes together.
 
i heard it should be to buy some wire shrink, i was only thinking it should be a better solution (i pay 30€ for welch tube, 180€ for the stethoscope adding custom taxes and shipping)

anyway i know i can't leave an open stem 🙂 i would have close airtight it
i'll try taping
 
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I think that if you are going to buy a stethoscope, don't listen to a medical student. Instead, listen to the doctors that use them all the time.

This is a good place to start.

Blue Dog said:
OK, here's my opinion regarding stethoscopes.

If all you're doing is checking blood pressures and making sure somebody's got blood going 'round and 'round and air going in and out, any old stethoscope will do. However, if you're truly interested in hearing subtle cardiac murmurs and other elusive biological sounds, you should only consider stethoscopes that have a floating (not "tunable") diaphragm, a traditional bell, and dual-lumen tubing.

Interestingly, this excludes all stethoscopes currently manufactured by 3M Littmann, the market leader. 3M has gradually incorporated the tunable diaphragm (originally offered only on the Master Cardiology) into all of its stethoscopes except the single-lumen pediatric and infant models, resulting in one of the most uniformly mediocre and overrated product lines in the industry.

Why do I dislike tunable diaphragms so much? In short, because they muffle sounds, and because most people don't know how to use them properly. In order to use a tunable diaphragm as a diaphragm (which is what you'll want to do most of the time), you have to press firmly and evenly on the chestpiece. Uneven pressure will result in muffled sounds. Firm, even pressure is the only way to clearly hear higher-pitched sounds. This is best accomplished on a flat surface. However, most patients' bodies are not flat, making it virtually impossible to maintain firm, even pressure as you move your stethoscope around. Unfortunately, if you only apply light pressure (which is what most people do most of the time), all you'll hear are boomy, muffled sounds. Contrary to 3M's advertising, it's nothing like what you'll hear using a traditional bell, where the low-pitched sounds are crisp and distinct. To further confuse things, correct use of a traditional bell demands light pressure, as firm pressure essentially turns the skin into a diaphragm. In short, tunable diaphragms are a recipe for disaster when you're trying to learn how to listen, and (IMHO) are partly to blame for the poor auscultation skills of modern doctors.

If you can find an older (pre-tunable diaphragm) Littmann Cardiology or Cardiology II (not SE) model, grab it...they're among the best stethoscopes ever made (Abella M, Formolo J, Penney DG. Comparison of the acoustic properties of six popular stethoscopes. J Acoust Soc Am 1992 Apr;91(4 Pt 1):2224-8). 3M discontinued the Cardiology II in 1994. However, with a little patience, you should be able to find one on eBay. If it's worn, you can send it to 3M for refurbishing, and it'll come back looking like new.

The original Hewlett-Packard (later Philips) Rappaport-Sprague is an old favorite with excellent acoustics. It's a little bulky, but the sound quality is superb. Unfortunately, it's been discontinued as well. These occasionally turn up on eBay, and replacement parts are still available. The cheap Spragues offered by other vendors simply don't compare, and are to be avoided at all costs.

Here's a list of currently-manufactured stethoscopes that are worth checking out. If you can, try them out before you buy. Everyone's ears are different, and what sounds good to me might not sound good to you.

ADC 602 Cardiology (www.adctoday.com)
Allen Series 5 (www.allenstethoscopes.com)
DRG PureTone Cardiology (www.doctorsresearchgroup.com)
GRx CD-25 Advanced Cardiology (www.grxmedical.com)
Heine Gamma C (www.heine.com)
Magna Fortis Metacardia LT (www.magnafortis.com)
MDF 797 Classic Cardiology (www.mdfdirect.com)
W.A. Baum Cardiology (www.wabaum.com)
Welch-Allyn Harvey Elite (www.welchallyn.com)
Welch-Allyn Harvey Double Head (www.welchallyn.com)

The old saying, "The most important part of the stethoscope is what's between your ears" is certainly true. Unless you know what you're listening to, the best stethoscope in the world isn't going to help you. However, if the sounds don't make it to your brain in the first place, your knowledge is wasted. So, if you really want to master cardiology, ditch the Master Cardiology and get yourself a proper stethoscope. You'll be glad you did.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=253778

This too:
HowellJolly said:
Seeing as you've resuscitated this thread, I'll add what I had posted on another forum a few weeks ago (edited for clarity, and with additions), Hope it helps:

Do NOT jump on the Littmann bandwagon at this point in your training. The "tunable diaphragm" is old technology that was pulled out of the trash, and marketed successfully to first year med students. Just look at the timeline of the R&D of Littmann scopes

Master Cardio > Cardio2 (had a non-tunable diaphragm) > discontinued Cardio2 and released Cardio3 (added the Patented tunable technology) > Added tunable technology to all Littmann scopes besides Lightweight.

I'd argue that it's only a matter of utilizing the patent, and ranking the product line to follow the manufacturing costs. Littmann's website ranks the Master Cardio as #1. Does this mean that every Littmann Cardiology model developed in the 20 years since 1987 has been a step down? Why did they disown the CardioII, their child prodigy?

So anyway, whats was wrong with a tunable diaphragm that the separate bell/diaphragm improvement had fixed, before it was abandoned?

The tunable diaphragm will miss sounds at the extremes of the frequency, ie. very low, and very high, and will not filter out unwanted frequencies.

Based on the research by Rappaport and Sprague in the '50s A tight diaphragm is needed to detect high frequencies, and a deep bell with a sharp edge is needed to detect low ones. Other findings included dual lumen tubing at specific lengths of 14", 18", or 25" (if memory serves)
The purpose of each chestpiece is not only to pick up those frequencies, but to attenuate part of the spectrum, making the rest of the spectrum more easily audible . The tunable diaphragm seems to pick up everything besides the extremes, because it is not tight, or sharp edged, or deep. Ergo, you don't get the extreme frequencies or the attenuation. You hear everything, and nothing at the same time.

I think this may be why sounds are not sharply distinct from each other with a tunable diaphragm. Its harder to detect S2 splitting, for example. If you have not been able to detect the normal physiological S2 splitting in all your patients (or your roommate) with the Littmann, this may be why!

Once you know what a diastolic murmur or a midsystolic click sounds like, you can "tune in" to it. Otherwise you need a stethoscope thats sensitive and specific and pre-set to those frequencies. Also keep in mind that Amplitude and Frequency are different things. Louder does not mean better.

Note that for learning purposes, many schools require a separate Bell and Diaphragm, and all the textbooks suggest it. Some schools require a Welch Allyn stethoscope so that you have a separate non-tunable diaphragm and bell.

In the spirit of Evidence Based medicine, here are some articles about various stethoscopes:

http://cardinal.com/mps/focus/respir...0corrected.asp

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Since the Allen, Littmann Cardiology II and HP Rappaport-Sprague are no longer available, based on the articles, the ideal scope is the Welch Allyn, which has the best bell, and a good diaphragm. Note, from the first article, that "least negative", or closer to zero, is good. Meaning, the Welch Allyn bell has the least difference between input (heart) and output (ears). And from the second article, significant differences in frequency response between bell and diaphragm, (which we want), was present in the Welch Allyn. And though clinical significance can not be determined by these studies, that is where the most important part of the stethoscope comes in -- the part between the ear pieces.

So, go for the Welch Allyn -- Elite, or DLX. There are pros and cons to each (PM me if you want details, Ive got both of them, and a Littmann Master Cardio). The summary is: While the DLX has slightly better acoustics, the Elite is slightly more user and patient friendly.

If you have a stethoscope that is sensitive and specific to physiologic sounds, and a have physical diagnosis text chapter or two in your brain, you can more easily and reliably make a clinical diagnosis
 
mm thank you, just read the first quote, not the second 😉

anyway the problem is that..here in italy i could pay a littman classic 2SE 70€ (from a uk seller) with engraving and spedition cost..

the welch allyn, from italian sellers (the best thieves 😛) minimum 220€ O_O

ok i tryed to contact an USA seller..the welch allyn for 146 dollars (97&#8364😉 + spedition, taxes ecc = minimum 180 €..

too expensive :\
 
You may want to consider a second hand or refurbished one. You could probably get one of those, and get it serviced for less than the price of a new one. Coincidentally I happen to be trying to sell my Harvey to free up money for christmas.

I'm afraid I don't know of any retailers in Italy though. Good luck with the stethoscope hunt though!
 
i heard it should be to buy some wire shrink, i was only thinking it should be a better solution (i pay 30€ for welch tube, 180€ for the stethoscope adding custom taxes and shipping)

anyway i know i can't leave an open stem 🙂 i would have close airtight it
i'll try taping


you people are whacked talking about scopes like this all I got to say,,,go take a vacation or something sheesh👎thumbdown👎thumbdown
 
As an electrical engineering student after taking biomedical instrumentation classes, I've always wondered why doctors don't use electronic stethoscopes more often. Is it just money? The frequency response on an electronic stethoscope is flat (meaning all sound frequencies have the same amplitude), while it is curvy and drops off quickly on the frequency extremes on non-electronic stethoscopes. Is there something I am missing?

My professor said it was because doctors are so accustomed to traditional stethoscopes that it's too hard to switch.. so why wouldn't you, as a med student, start with an electronic one and never have to get used to an inferior scope?
 
As an electrical engineering student after taking biomedical instrumentation classes, I've always wondered why doctors don't use electronic stethoscopes more often. Is it just money? The frequency response on an electronic stethoscope is flat (meaning all sound frequencies have the same amplitude), while it is curvy and drops off quickly on the frequency extremes on non-electronic stethoscopes. Is there something I am missing?

My professor said it was because doctors are so accustomed to traditional stethoscopes that it's too hard to switch.. so why wouldn't you, as a med student, start with an electronic one and never have to get used to an inferior scope?

Thats actually very interesting. Low frequencies are very quiet on a non-electronic scope.

I suppose price has a lot to do with it. Most people probably don't want to carry a computer in their pocket, because of the cost, size, and breakability. Lastly, many people don't know what to do with all the information they get from a stethoscope, so why go all out? It's like why high resolution chest CTs are not done on every patient in every hospital. Most radiologists don't know what to make of the extra information on the HR-CT, so it doesn't help them, or the patient in any way.
 
like every technology, it needs time to diffuse…

it's the same matter that anatomy professors doesn't yet work with images from volume rendenring, or maximum intensity projection. They can easily meet an hospital internist in radiology, and make efforts to get a group of pic of the entire body…it would be awesome but it's too early for almost all professors (here in italy)

i said also that the cost is….really too expensive for a student 🙂 if i will be a specialist, i'll probably more motivated to spend >300€ and to complete appreciate the item...