Which year is the hardest? M1, M2, M3, M4

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Belleza156

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I had always been told that 3rd and 4th year are when you get to take it easy. In fact I was kinda betting on this.

I'm not sure why I see post on SDN stating that there's lots of time in 1st and 2nd year to do everything. I sure don't have ample time! And it's not just me, not of my friends have lots of time to have hobbies, they can barely pull off having boyfriends. And granted they are at the top of the class which means that some have to study a lot to be there, while others are lucky enough to not have to put in as a great an effort. Point is, no one seems to have lots of time on their hands.

We have an exam like every 2 weeks, AT LEAST!!! Sometimes it's 2 a week. Plus they include other bullsh**T things like research classes and behavioral and preceptorship, and their favorite to put us with Problem Based Learning class. which in reality are just time consumers. I have to take time away for studying for important classes to get things done for these BS classes, it's really annoying.

So my questions is where are ppl finding all this time??? Are they at schools who give exams once a month? The 2nd years have warned us that it gets even worse come next year. Is M3 and M4 not a breath of fresh air to look forward to?

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I had always been told that 3rd and 4th year are when you get to take it easy. In fact I was kinda betting on this.

I'm not sure why I see post on SDN stating that there's lots of time in 1st and 2nd year to do everything. I sure don't have ample time! And it's not just me, not of my friends have lots of time to have hobbies, they can barely pull off having boyfriends. And granted they are at the top of the class which means that some have to study a lot to be there, while others are lucky enough to not have to put in as a great an effort. Point is, no one seems to have lots of time on their hands.

We have an exam like every 2 weeks, AT LEAST!!! Sometimes it's 2 a week. Plus they include other bullsh**T things like research classes and behavioral and preceptorship, and their favorite to put us with Problem Based Learning class. which in reality are just time consumers. I have to take time away for studying for important classes to get things done for these BS classes, it's really annoying.

So my questions is where are ppl finding all this time??? Are they at schools who give exams once a month? The 2nd years have warned us that it gets even worse come next year. Is M3 and M4 not a breath of fresh air to look forward to?

M3 is def more time consuming than M2. I had a lot of hobbies M1/M2. I had some M3. You don't take as many tests though so I guess thats nice in a way. M2 is my fav year by far. I'm always jealous of the M2s as I feel that I had a ton more time. 4th year is up and down. SubI's can be very time consuming. Apps are time consuming. Interviews time consuming. Lots of important decisions.

As for BS classes eh. I'm guessing the tests aren't hard so why are they a problem. They are part of required curriculum. I would guess problem based learning should be a good class as its probably about using labs and stuff to work up a patient.
 
M3 is def more time consuming than M2. I had a lot of hobbies M1/M2. I had some M3. You don't take as many tests though so I guess thats nice in a way. M2 is my fav year by far. I'm always jealous of the M2s as I feel that I had a ton more time. 4th year is up and down. SubI's can be very time consuming. Apps are time consuming. Interviews time consuming. Lots of important decisions.

As for BS classes eh. I'm guessing the tests aren't hard so why are they a problem. They are part of required curriculum. I would guess problem based learning should be a good class as its probably about using labs and stuff to work up a patient.

Classes aren't hard, they are pretty easy. But like I said time consuming. Have an assignment for every PBL class, takes up 2-3 hours, once a week. Preceptoring takes up 4 hours every other week having to go shadow, but at least it's much more than shadowing, I do learn a lot. It also includes community events and quizzes and research papers and presentations, most weeks I don't bother with it, but when things come up it's another 5-6 hours of work that week for a given project or studying for a quiz. Research, fact that they made it mandatory attendance! And it includes quizzes and projects. they classes seem like they are good ideas, but they always get in the way when you are middle of studying for neuroscience and physiology. When the countdown is on, and I have 1 week, 2 days to study for 2 systems, and then 5 days to study for a neuro exam, they last thing I want to do is have to go put on a health clinic in an impoverished community, sounds selfish but it really takes an entire day from studying. And with exams every 2 weeks, there isn't a lot of time because obviously we cover exam material until the Friday before a Monday exam.
 
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I think it's more dependent on the school and the individual. The first two years and the second two years are very different. I think people at your own school have the best insight---how hard the classes/rotations are, how busy your schedule is, etc. is not comparable between schools---as they KNOW exactly how things are and can compare between the years. If they think 2nd year is harder, you probably will too. Keep in mind that studying on clinical rotations is different than cramming for a test q2weeks; often you only have one exam (and maybe an OSCE) per rotation, so the tests are spaced further apart. There's always stuff to be reading about, though.

Some people thrive in the clinical years no matter how many hours they are putting in, and some people struggle with adjusting to the shift away from the classroom situation. Some people thrive in the preclinical years and don't need to put in as much time as others to prepare for exams....and then are a fish out of water as 3rd years trying to adjust to the wards.

I think the general consensus would be 4th year is the best year by far (despite the stress of the match).
 
Classes aren't hard, they are pretty easy. But like I said time consuming. Have an assignment for every PBL class, takes up 2-3 hours, once a week. Preceptoring takes up 4 hours every other week having to go shadow, but at least it's much more than shadowing, I do learn a lot. It also includes community events and quizzes and research papers and presentations, most weeks I don't bother with it, but when things come up it's another 5-6 hours of work that week for a given project or studying for a quiz. Research, fact that they made it mandatory attendance! And it includes quizzes and projects. they classes seem like they are good ideas, but they always get in the way when you are middle of studying for neuroscience and physiology. When the countdown is on, and I have 1 week, 2 days to study for 2 systems, and then 5 days to study for a neuro exam, they last thing I want to do is have to go put on a health clinic in an impoverished community, sounds selfish but it really takes an entire day from studying. And with exams every 2 weeks, there isn't a lot of time because obviously we cover exam material until the Friday before a Monday exam.

As the last poster said though some people thrive during M3. I liked it a lot but its def more time consuming. If your worried now about other responsibilities getting in the way of studying for exam though M3 will be worse because you have much more clinical responsibility and much less time to study.

- Pardon me for being harsh but you came to med school to learn to take care of patients.... and your med school actually requires you to WASTE YOUR TIME TAKING CARE OF PATIENTS when you could be studying! Heaven forbid. You need to check your priorities as your clearly focusing on the trees instead of the forest. Your exams are part of med school, its not ALL Of med school. I think its a shame that you look at these things as a waste of your time.

- I feel like your point of view is very entitled. Its as if you feel its unfair that they require you to do other things. Certainly worse things could happen than some five hour requirement. People get sick, people have kids, people have kids who get sick... It takes up time too, but people still have to take the tests.

-If you think that's better third year think again. Your going to be required to take care of patients all day. very little of what you do daily will help you on the exams. The days before exams you may be at the hospital late doing something that helps you not at all, but its part of your job.
I was on trauma nights the week of my surgery exam. It was 12 hour shifts of solid work, not studying and I still had to take the exam despite not having a whole day to do it before. I studied my days off. I knew I had trauma last so I studied earlier in my surg block. It's time management and accepting that you are here to learn to be a doc, not study for your shelf exams etc. You use the time you have to do your best.

- Every med school has most of the same basic requirements so your clearly not the only one struggling through the same things. I think these other classes they are requiring they are requiring for a reason and people didn't show up because they weren't being tested on. Professors and docs take time to lecture these important topics to you and a lot of times students don't pay attn as its not on the test. this doesn't make these things unimportant its part of being a doc.

-Last but not least if your actually having trouble and studying all the time maybe you aren't studying correctly or are burnt out. But from your second post it seems to me like your more irritated by the other responsibilities than actually having trouble. You really need to just accept that your requirements are your requirements; your going to have to get your grades despite them.

- I'm sorry if you were just complaining if you were frustrated or run down and I attacked you but I really feel that too many med students lose the big picture. If your really struggling with second year get help.Think of med school as a hurdle race instead of just a race or something, there are other things in your way but thats just the nature of the beast. Everyone in the race is doing the same thing. Sure a race w/o hurdles would be easier but thats not what med school is, if thats what you wanted you signed up for the wrong race!
 
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As the last poster said though some people thrive during M3. I liked it a lot but its def more time consuming. If your worried now about other responsibilities getting in the way of studying for exam though M3 will be worse because you have much more clinical responsibility and much less time to study.

- Pardon me for being harsh but you came to med school to learn to take care of patients.... and your med school actually requires you to WASTE YOUR TIME TAKING CARE OF PATIENTS when you could be studying! Heaven forbid. You need to check your priorities as your clearly focusing on the trees instead of the forest. Your exams are part of med school, its not ALL Of med school. I think its a shame that you look at these things as a waste of your time.

- I feel like your point of view is very entitled. Its as if you feel its unfair that they require you to do other things. Certainly worse things could happen than some five hour requirement. People get sick, people have kids, people have kids who get sick... It takes up time too, but people still have to take the tests.

-If you think that's better third year think again. Your going to be required to take care of patients all day. very little of what you do daily will help you on the exams. The days before exams you may be at the hospital late doing something that helps you not at all, but its part of your job.
I was on trauma nights the week of my surgery exam. It was 12 hour shifts of solid work, not studying and I still had to take the exam despite not having a whole day to do it before. I studied my days off. I knew I had trauma last so I studied earlier in my surg block. It's time management and accepting that you are here to learn to be a doc, not study for your shelf exams etc. You use the time you have to do your best.

- Every med school has most of the same basic requirements so your clearly not the only one struggling through the same things. I think these other classes they are requiring they are requiring for a reason and people didn't show up because they weren't being tested on. Professors and docs take time to lecture these important topics to you and a lot of times students don't pay attn as its not on the test. this doesn't make these things unimportant its part of being a doc.

-Last but not least if your actually having trouble and studying all the time maybe you aren't studying correctly or are burnt out. But from your second post it seems to me like your more irritated by the other responsibilities than actually having trouble. You really need to just accept that your requirements are your requirements; your going to have to get your grades despite them.

- I'm sorry if you were just complaining if you were frustrated or run down and I attacked you but I really feel that too many med students lose the big picture. If your really struggling with second year get help.Think of med school as a hurdle race instead of just a race or something, there are other things in your way but thats just the nature of the beast. Everyone in the race is doing the same thing. Sure a race w/o hurdles would be easier but thats not what med school is, if thats what you wanted you signed up for the wrong race!



I hear this argument all the time from the more starry eyed, naive members of my medical school. A few points:

1) I'm paying to be here. Not the reverse.
2) I'm a medical student, not a doctor. How much difference do you really think I can make?
3) There will be an entire career of service following these few years. Very shortly.
4) Any time that I spend that detracts from graduating with the scores I need to do with what I want with my life is unconditionally a bad move. It hurts me, and it hurts my future patients. I owe it to them to make the best of my medical education at the proper time, and the time to study books is now. Furthermore, while I deeply feel for her, it's not my fault that nobody else is holding 80 year old Mrs. Brown's hand and asking her about her grandkids while she's on dialysis.
5) Avoiding burnout is paramount.
A) You can't help everyone.

In conclusion, I feel that students like you get too caught up in playing doctor (nurse, really) and lose sight of why you are really here. Too often people like you in residency are the ones who have no idea what to do because they were too busy focusing on looking good, telling their folks back home how gosh darn important they are, and chastising others rather than preparing for tomorrow.

And look at that, I made my point without talking down or bolding for emphasis.
 
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As the last poster said though some people thrive during M3. I liked it a lot but its def more time consuming. If your worried now about other responsibilities getting in the way of studying for exam though M3 will be worse because you have much more clinical responsibility and much less time to study.

- Pardon me for being harsh but you came to med school to learn to take care of patients.... and your med school actually requires you to WASTE YOUR TIME TAKING CARE OF PATIENTS when you could be studying! Heaven forbid. You need to check your priorities as your clearly focusing on the trees instead of the forest. Your exams are part of med school, its not ALL Of med school. I think its a shame that you look at these things as a waste of your time.

- I feel like your point of view is very entitled. Its as if you feel its unfair that they require you to do other things. Certainly worse things could happen than some five hour requirement. People get sick, people have kids, people have kids who get sick... It takes up time too, but people still have to take the tests.

-If you think that's better third year think again. Your going to be required to take care of patients all day. very little of what you do daily will help you on the exams. The days before exams you may be at the hospital late doing something that helps you not at all, but its part of your job.
I was on trauma nights the week of my surgery exam. It was 12 hour shifts of solid work, not studying and I still had to take the exam despite not having a whole day to do it before. I studied my days off. I knew I had trauma last so I studied earlier in my surg block. It's time management and accepting that you are here to learn to be a doc, not study for your shelf exams etc. You use the time you have to do your best.

- Every med school has most of the same basic requirements so your clearly not the only one struggling through the same things. I think these other classes they are requiring they are requiring for a reason and people didn't show up because they weren't being tested on. Professors and docs take time to lecture these important topics to you and a lot of times students don't pay attn as its not on the test. this doesn't make these things unimportant its part of being a doc.

-Last but not least if your actually having trouble and studying all the time maybe you aren't studying correctly or are burnt out. But from your second post it seems to me like your more irritated by the other responsibilities than actually having trouble. You really need to just accept that your requirements are your requirements; your going to have to get your grades despite them.

- I'm sorry if you were just complaining if you were frustrated or run down and I attacked you but I really feel that too many med students lose the big picture. If your really struggling with second year get help.Think of med school as a hurdle race instead of just a race or something, there are other things in your way but thats just the nature of the beast. Everyone in the race is doing the same thing. Sure a race w/o hurdles would be easier but thats not what med school is, if thats what you wanted you signed up for the wrong race!

Excuse me while I knock you down from your high horse...

The first two years of med school are made so that you learn the hard science behind diagnosing patients and understanding disease. That's why we have a pretty important exam at the end of it known as Step 1 which tests your understanding of the basic science material and how it pertains to the human body. The second two years (and residency for that matter) are created to show you how to be a doctor and how to use the info you have learned from the first two years to help patients. Don't get this confused.

I honestly think that one of the main reasons med schools include (somewhat) clinical activities in the first two years is so that they can continue to tell students that they get "hands on" earlier than other schools. While it may be technically true, for all useful purposes the closest most schools get to dealing with real patients is trial by fire when you're thrown on the wards.

I agree with the OP, we have exams every Friday with Case-Based Learning every week and more surveys, evaluations, and other time-wasting BS then I can even fathom. I would say he deserves a pass if he's a little pissed that he's paying 10's of thousands of dollars to have his time wasted because someone thinks that adding an extra course on research will look good when credentialing is up again for his school.

I agree with him and the poster above. Anything that detracts away from me doing the absolute best I can on Step 1 and therefore giving me the best opportunity to care for patients in the way I see fit is a waste of time and a waste of money and I don't need it.

If I wanted to care for patients without understanding why they are sick I would have saved a lot of time and money and became a nurse. Fact is the science interests me and I want to know WHY my parents are diseased so that I CAN FIX IT. That's what med school is for. Not for self-righteous pr*cks like you who tell me that I don't see the big picture because I'm frustrated that my money is going towards making the school look good and not making me a better doctor.

EDIT: I don't have as much tact as the poster before me. I apologize.
 
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Getting back to the OP's question, MS3 is definitely harder than the preclinical years, at least most of the time. The hard rotations (im, surg, ob, etc) are much more time consuming, and have nearly as much studying requirements as preclinical. However, the easier rotations are much, much easier--certain blocks will have hours like 8-12 4 days a week w/o any outside studying required.

In general though, even the hard rotations are better than 1st/2nd year--at least you're not sitting in lecture all day or memorizing biochemical pathways. That said, rounding for six hours straight can make you want to claw your eyes out.
 
I had always been told that 3rd and 4th year are when you get to take it easy. In fact I was kinda betting on this.

I'm not sure why I see post on SDN stating that there's lots of time in 1st and 2nd year to do everything. I sure don't have ample time! And it's not just me, not of my friends have lots of time to have hobbies, they can barely pull off having boyfriends. And granted they are at the top of the class which means that some have to study a lot to be there, while others are lucky enough to not have to put in as a great an effort. Point is, no one seems to have lots of time on their hands.

We have an exam like every 2 weeks, AT LEAST!!! Sometimes it's 2 a week. Plus they include other bullsh**T things like research classes and behavioral and preceptorship, and their favorite to put us with Problem Based Learning class. which in reality are just time consumers. I have to take time away for studying for important classes to get things done for these BS classes, it's really annoying.

So my questions is where are ppl finding all this time??? Are they at schools who give exams once a month? The 2nd years have warned us that it gets even worse come next year. Is M3 and M4 not a breath of fresh air to look forward to?

Also, I feel you OP. As I said above we have exams every week and it requires us to pump and dump the info. Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever learning anything at all but then I notice that I remember a hell of a lot more from anatomy that I thought and that makes me feel good about some of it. Keep your head up. I, too, agree that 3rd and 4th year will be way better if for nothing else than not having exams every week. Keep your head up. I don't have time for anything either and my gf gets lonely a lot. I often wonder why I'm here but then I'll run into a lecture that I find insanely interesting and makes me want to learn more and keep goin. Keep it up. Good luck.
 
I had always been told that 3rd and 4th year are when you get to take it easy. In fact I was kinda betting on this.

I'm not sure why I see post on SDN stating that there's lots of time in 1st and 2nd year to do everything. I sure don't have ample time! And it's not just me, not of my friends have lots of time to have hobbies, they can barely pull off having boyfriends. And granted they are at the top of the class which means that some have to study a lot to be there, while others are lucky enough to not have to put in as a great an effort. Point is, no one seems to have lots of time on their hands.

We have an exam like every 2 weeks, AT LEAST!!! Sometimes it's 2 a week. Plus they include other bullsh**T things like research classes and behavioral and preceptorship, and their favorite to put us with Problem Based Learning class. which in reality are just time consumers. I have to take time away for studying for important classes to get things done for these BS classes, it's really annoying.

So my questions is where are ppl finding all this time??? Are they at schools who give exams once a month? The 2nd years have warned us that it gets even worse come next year. Is M3 and M4 not a breath of fresh air to look forward to?

Each year is hard in its own right, and balance is not an easy thing to accomplish. Oftentimes the "I had so much time 1st and 2nd year" are written by upper level med students reflecting on their own experience with the understanding of how they maximize their study time. When you're in the middle of it, it's hard to see it that way. Don't get down on yourself.

I never had tests every two weeks, and I imagine that would make it harder to have time to play. However, it should keep material to a manageable enough level that you should be able to find some (not necessarily a lot) of time for something other than study, eat, sleep, repeat. Pick something and make it a priority to spend 30 mins to an hour on it each day of the week, no matter what your studying situation is. Do this preferably when you don't have a test the next week. You will train yourself to adjust to this. It doesn't matter if it's exercise, some other hobby, reading, tv, whatever, just pick something.

1st year is tough exactly because you spend a significant amount of it developing proper study habits for med school. 2nd year (at least where I am) is tough because the material gets more important and is more voluminous.

3rd year is hard because you spend lots of time in the hospital and lose a lot of time to study. You have to figure out how to make use of the time you have, including down time in the hospital, to prepare for your shelf exams. 4th year is hard because you start out doing sub-Is, applying for residency, doing interviews. Really it's the second half of 4th year that is sweet, once all of that is over and things don't really matter anymore.

It's a hard road, but just keep trying.
 
One must not link their Step 1 performance with their ability to care for patients. There is far more to being a doctor than what is represented on that test and truth be told, with or without those clinical activities and other mandatory things during the first 2 years, there is plenty of time to study for Step 1 and the materials you need to know. Step 1 is a checkpoint to make sure you have the base knowledge to survive the next 2 years. It isn't a test that decides your proficiency as a physician. Just because one doesn't sense instant returns in something, doesn't mean it doesn't have any value.

Every year of medical school has its unique challenges. First year was boring, but at least I worked out a lot. Second year is a grind and I don't have much free time, unlike other people but that was a personal choice because I tag in extra Step 1 study time and other things.

From an educational standpoint, third year is about integrating all the crap you jammed in your head for those first 2 years and making it somewhat useful. I find the people who complain most about how awful third year is tend to be people in the more traditional pathway where they may have had a job, but it wasn't something all consuming. They tend to be people who enjoy the lecture/studying aspect. The people who love third year tend to be the learn by doing type and oftentimes had some really crappy jobs that make going to the hospital and playing doctor much more appealing. (Of course there are variations in this)

4th year is more of the same, but with the stress really being on residency stuff and perhaps getting exposure to things you may never see again.

I feel like the second half puts much of the responsability on you to get the most out of it, which some people like and some people don't.
 
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This is very common. People at the top of the class are not going to waste their time on extracurricular activities and relationships. M1 is the hardest only because you have to get used to it. After that, each subsequent year, you will look back and say, "It was easier back then". Things that you previously learned will always be easier. Then eventually, people get used to it. In actuality, in terms of difficulty, the M3 should be the hardest.
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I had always been told that 3rd and 4th year are when you get to take it easy. In fact I was kinda betting on this. ....

Is M3 and M4 not a breath of fresh air to look forward to?
Don't know where you got these ideas. M3 is much more time-consuming than M1/M2, and you have to study when you finish a long day at the hospital, because you still have a shelf exam. I liked it a lot more, but it has a lot less free time.

M4 was a breath of fresh air, but only after I finished interviewing for residency. You still have interviews, sub-Is, Step 2 CS and CK, and some electives that might not be cake.
 
As the last poster said though some people thrive during M3. I liked it a lot but its def more time consuming. If your worried now about other responsibilities getting in the way of studying for exam though M3 will be worse because you have much more clinical responsibility and much less time to study.

- Pardon me for being harsh but you came to med school to learn to take care of patients.... and your med school actually requires you to WASTE YOUR TIME TAKING CARE OF PATIENTS when you could be studying! Heaven forbid. You need to check your priorities as your clearly focusing on the trees instead of the forest. Your exams are part of med school, its not ALL Of med school. I think its a shame that you look at these things as a waste of your time.

This is stupid 'cuz as a 1st year (or even early on as a 2nd year), you simply don't know enough to make a DDx or "take care of patients".

I also found many of the required "clinical" shadowing opportunities earlier on in the pre-clinical years to be a waste of time. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true.

What compounded the stress & also contributed to this perception was our FREQUENT tests (especially 1st year). When I'm busy trying not to fail a test on the Kreb's cycle, I'm not interested in hanging around for 4 hrs in a clinic the day before basically "playing doctor".

I know a lot of people really and truly enjoyed each & every opportunity they got to "play doctor". But I frickin' hated it when I had no clue what I was doing.

Yeah, as a 2nd year, I had a lot more knowledge so it was much more fun (& useful) to be in a clinic, see patients, form a DDx. But first months of med school? COME ON.

What was also stupid was how we'd "play doctor" and do "play exams", wasting hrs & hrs of time... but then 2nd year, we learn the exams again, and only this time is it for real. For example-- why are we playing with listening to heart sounds or looking at the retina when we haven't even studied the relevant anatomy or any pathology of the relevant organs?

So actually this early clinical "exposure" STRESSED me out so much during 1st year. 'Cuz I had no idea what I was supposed to be hearing/seeing... but my classmates were all BSing and pretending they were hearing grade 1 diastolic murmurs or palpating the kidneys... lol.

Then comes 2nd year, when I've actually learned what are the causes of diastolic murmurs, and... btw, the kidneys aren't actually palpable. Now, we learn the physical exam AGAIN.

I mean, what a waste of time those earlier "play sessions" were! Yeah. I have some strong opinions on this. :rolleyes:
 
My theory:

M1 and M2 you are given a finite amount of information to learn. The amount of work that entais depends on your academic ability and the grrade you want.

In M3 most of your responsibilites are clinical. It's an oversimplification (since there is still some studying), but for the sake of argument you can regard the amount of work as a constant.

So the difficulty of preclinicals, relative to M3, increasses as students get more ambitious and less intelligent
 
The OP said they were forcing her to work in an underserved area, I don't think that's really a waste of anyone's time. Additionally while first and second years can't do a differential diagnosis they can learn about a lab or any number of other things. I still use things I learned from my preceptors 1st and 2nd year. i taught a first year struggling with something the same thing yesterday.

I'm quite removed from trying to look good in med school as people said. I think the people who are too focused on grades are those people. Maybe if the OP's school was on the pass/fail system he/she could focus on all parts of med school and not getting honors or an A or whatever. If you knew you could either pass or fail, would you think that all these activities were a waste? I just get irritated when med students focus so much on grades and not on what they are learning. I'm far from an overzealous or suck up med student. I do whats required of me.I do it as well as I can, and then I do what I want with the rest of my time. If in the end as well as I can reflects to a good grade than great. I also didn't "play doctor" first or second year. I agree that would be dumb. I went to physical diagnosis and listened to heart sounds and looked at the retina as required but continued to shadow my first year preceptor which is the clinical stuff I enjoy doing. I learned all that other stuff, and its useful to know for residency, but I plan on throwing it all out the door when I get to fellowship. 1st and 2nd year med students can learn to stitch in the ED, thats really helpful in busy eds. I learned to put in IVs. These are all skills that you can use later.

Can you do any clinical activities in something you actually want to do for the rest of your life? I guess if you enjoyed it that would help also.

I think people can still do great on step 1 while balancing things. Some schools have only 1.5 years of preclinicals. My school is planning on switching to even shorter than that. So are you going to tell me you can't do stellar on step 1 if you have some clinical requirements in your preclinical years.... I don't think thats the case at all. My step 1 and 2 scores were fine.

Getting all bent out of shape about requirements you can't change is certainly not going to get better test grades! Every school has other requirements first and second year and I doubt it will hurt anyone's step 1 score.
 
The OP said they were forcing her to work in an underserved area, I don't think that's really a waste of anyone's time. Additionally while first and second years can't do a differential diagnosis they can learn about a lab or any number of other things. I still use things I learned from my preceptors 1st and 2nd year. i taught a first year struggling with something the same thing yesterday.

I'm quite removed from trying to look good in med school as people said. I think the people who are too focused on grades are those people. Maybe if the OP's school was on the pass/fail system he/she could focus on all parts of med school and not getting honors or an A or whatever. If you knew you could either pass or fail, would you think that all these activities were a waste? I just get irritated when med students focus so much on grades and not on what they are learning. I'm far from an overzealous or suck up med student. I do whats required of me.I do it as well as I can, and then I do what I want with the rest of my time. If in the end as well as I can reflects to a good grade than great. I also didn't "play doctor" first or second year. I agree that would be dumb. I went to physical diagnosis and listened to heart sounds and looked at the retina as required but continued to shadow my first year preceptor which is the clinical stuff I enjoy doing. I learned all that other stuff, and its useful to know for residency, but I plan on throwing it all out the door when I get to fellowship. 1st and 2nd year med students can learn to stitch in the ED, thats really helpful in busy eds. I learned to put in IVs. These are all skills that you can use later.

Can you do any clinical activities in something you actually want to do for the rest of your life? I guess if you enjoyed it that would help also.

I think people can still do great on step 1 while balancing things. Some schools have only 1.5 years of preclinicals. My school is planning on switching to even shorter than that. So are you going to tell me you can't do stellar on step 1 if you have some clinical requirements in your preclinical years.... I don't think thats the case at all. My step 1 and 2 scores were fine.

Getting all bent out of shape about requirements you can't change is certainly not going to get better test grades! Every school has other requirements first and second year and I doubt it will hurt anyone's step 1 score.

Really no need to jump to the conclusions about the OP that you did here, though. If you had a wonderful experience at your preceptorship and you found it to be enlightening and fruitful, that's great. But don't assume that the OP is "entitled" and forgetting why he/she came to medical school just because he isn't having the same experience as you did. The fact of the matter is that a lot of these experiences sound much better on paper and do a better job of impressing applicants than actually being useful for the people involved. So, less high horse, please.
 
My only point is that there are things you're going to not want to do throughout med school. I don't like working with adults, but the experiences are part of med school. I want to go into a very specialized small field, a lot of my residency training I'll never use again. Med school is a means to an end, these aren't wasteful they are just learning.

I'm not really talking about her not liking her preceptorship she said she had to go work at the free clinic and it was a waste of time. I mean all throughout third year you'll do things that aren't contributing to your learning. You'll get things from closets. Do skut work. It is part of the process.

To me thats saying I don't want to do these other classes as I don't see the benefit in them for my grade. I was talking to some other med professionals about this yesterday afternoon so I guess maybe I jumped to the fact that she's saying that, as it was fresh on my mind but thats how i read it. I really don't have a high horse just realize that your learning things for a reason. Most 3rd and 4th years I know always have some part of the physical exam they are embarassed not to know how to do. So take the time to ask while a first and second year and your more allowed to be stupid.
 
I guess for the record I was talking to an attending physician who took the time out to do a group topic for a course. Some of the students decided that it wasn't worth their time as they had more important things to do and while being required its not really graded.

He's a great teacher and the topic was very broad so it could be worthwhile for anyone. It was the most popular lecture group (everyone had to do one / twenty or so lectures) and a lot of people who wanted in couldn't get it in. I guess he felt it was rude and I was talking to him about it when I saw him at the gym the day this was posted. I think as a rule med students sometimes think anything they aren't grade on is a waste. It frustrates me and I wasn't proud of my schoolmates who did it. It doesn't reflect well.

I had a similar discussion with other med students (who were fed up with the cut throats in my med school) about how being a great med student and getting the highest grades probably very poorly reflects on being a good resident or doctor. Being a good doctor is about advocating for your patients, its not about the rewards for yourself in terms of something equivalent to a grade. this got extrapolated to would you take your family member to the classmates who were junior aoa. the ones who got the best grades 1st and 2nd year. a lot of people said no as they were all pretentious. Sure they got great grades, but they talked down to everyone. Their status messages on facebook show the only person they love is really themselves, not their patients.

Perhaps I overly extrapolated from the second post that the OP was like that: caring more about her grades than being a good doctor and for that I apologize. It's one of the most frustrating things about med school students though. I really believe in doing med school for the knowledge you need in residency not a grade. Sorry for attacking, but I still think the OP would benefit from just taking the curriculum given and learning something from everything she does. Curriculum's tend to be well thought out and try to glean the reason for why you they want you to do x. You don't have to want to do something for the rest of your life for it to be a beneficial experience either.
 
As the last poster said though some people thrive during M3. I liked it a lot but its def more time consuming. If your worried now about other responsibilities getting in the way of studying for exam though M3 will be worse because you have much more clinical responsibility and much less time to study.

- Pardon me for being harsh but you came to med school to learn to take care of patients.... and your med school actually requires you to WASTE YOUR TIME TAKING CARE OF PATIENTS when you could be studying! Heaven forbid. You need to check your priorities as your clearly focusing on the trees instead of the forest. Your exams are part of med school, its not ALL Of med school. I think its a shame that you look at these things as a waste of your time.

- I feel like your point of view is very entitled. Its as if you feel its unfair that they require you to do other things. Certainly worse things could happen than some five hour requirement. People get sick, people have kids, people have kids who get sick... It takes up time too, but people still have to take the tests.

-If you think that's better third year think again. Your going to be required to take care of patients all day. very little of what you do daily will help you on the exams. The days before exams you may be at the hospital late doing something that helps you not at all, but its part of your job.
I was on trauma nights the week of my surgery exam. It was 12 hour shifts of solid work, not studying and I still had to take the exam despite not having a whole day to do it before. I studied my days off. I knew I had trauma last so I studied earlier in my surg block. It's time management and accepting that you are here to learn to be a doc, not study for your shelf exams etc. You use the time you have to do your best.

- Every med school has most of the same basic requirements so your clearly not the only one struggling through the same things. I think these other classes they are requiring they are requiring for a reason and people didn't show up because they weren't being tested on. Professors and docs take time to lecture these important topics to you and a lot of times students don't pay attn as its not on the test. this doesn't make these things unimportant its part of being a doc.

-Last but not least if your actually having trouble and studying all the time maybe you aren't studying correctly or are burnt out. But from your second post it seems to me like your more irritated by the other responsibilities than actually having trouble. You really need to just accept that your requirements are your requirements; your going to have to get your grades despite them.

- I'm sorry if you were just complaining if you were frustrated or run down and I attacked you but I really feel that too many med students lose the big picture. If your really struggling with second year get help.Think of med school as a hurdle race instead of just a race or something, there are other things in your way but thats just the nature of the beast. Everyone in the race is doing the same thing. Sure a race w/o hurdles would be easier but thats not what med school is, if thats what you wanted you signed up for the wrong race!

You have NO clinical responsibility in 3rd year lol. If we did, people might not be alive. It's more of a learning thing then work, since I probably do a max of 30 minutes of work a day, which is basically interviewing one patient. Everything else is rounds, and watching others.
 
I had a similar discussion with other med students (who were fed up with the cut throats in my med school) about how being a great med student and getting the highest grades probably very poorly reflects on being a good resident or doctor. Being a good doctor is about advocating for your patients, its not about the rewards for yourself in terms of something equivalent to a grade. this got extrapolated to would you take your family member to the classmates who were junior aoa. the ones who got the best grades 1st and 2nd year. a lot of people said no as they were all pretentious. Sure they got great grades, but they talked down to everyone. Their status messages on facebook show the only person they love is really themselves, not their patients.

I guess that would be the sour grapes barely-passing club. My preclinical grades are not that hot, but luckily I haven't convinced myself that I'll be a great doctor because of it. Sheesh.
 
I didn't know how much free time I had during first and second year until I hit third year... and then I understood what a luxury having every single weekend off was-- I never went to class, my schedule was flexible, I had very few responsibilities aside from trying to keep up, etc.

Each year is difficult but in a different way. First year was hard because it took me time to adjust to the volume of information I had to memorize, the material tended to be pretty dry, and I had very few friends. Second year was difficult because the pace of the coursework increased and in the spring the boards were constantly looming in the back of my mind. Third year was hard because as a third year you're literally at the bottom of the pile, you don't know anything, everyone is yelling at you, your role is often not very well-defined and after you're done at work, you're supposed to go home and study for the shelf. Fourth year isn't hard at all aside from fretting over where you're going to match and trying to pull your application together in a semi-timely manner.

It's been said before: if it's important to you, then you'll find time for it. Having a personal life with a significant was important to me, but I didn't really make it a top priority until third year during my surgery clerkship. I spent a lot of time dating and started running again, and I did just fine during this rotation. Same with fourth year-- relationships and exercise remained a top priority for me and I did great on my sub-i's and nailed step II CK. I actually think living a more balanced life helped my performance.
 
I guess that would be the sour grapes barely-passing club. My preclinical grades are not that hot, but luckily I haven't convinced myself that I'll be a great doctor because of it. Sheesh.

I'd say hardly the case: there wasn't a single individual in this conversation who didn't have a residency interview at a U Penn affiliated residency program, Hopkins, or a Harvard affiliated program. (Disclaimer those are examples of the ones we had there are clearly other great name programs). I don't usually consider that a requirement of doing well in med school as many people chose a residency program for location or liking the program. No one was barely passing.
 
A month ago I would have said M3 hands down.

Looking at the beginning of M4 though, with Sub-Is, Aways, personal statements, getting LORs, ERAS, etc. I think that July until September of M4 is going to be the hardest I will work in med school.
 
MS3, hands down. MS1-2 were basically undergrad redux.. Study for things, do some extracurriculars, take some tests. MS3 was tough for a few reasons, one major one being shelf exams and the fact that you might be learning in an area not pertinent to your shelf. Worst was OBGYN when new cervical CA screening guidelines came out and we had to know the new ones for clinic/real life and the old ones for the shelf....ugh. Clerks are also in this bizarre limbo where they know a lot of pathophys but some nurse is going to look at you like you're a ***** because you don't know which of 3 information systems has the patient's blood glucose values. Weird issues come up which you've never thought of before [medicolegal, psych

Anyway I know some of those "soft" courses sound like a waste but they can give good residency interview fodder.
 
A month ago I would have said M3 hands down.

Looking at the beginning of M4 though, with Sub-Is, Aways, personal statements, getting LORs, ERAS, etc. I think that July until September of M4 is going to be the hardest I will work in med school.

It might be harder work (depending on how intense 3rd year was), but it is much more straight forward. You have a knowledge base, your sub-i is in an area you know something about, you've written personal statements etc before, you've already taken Step 1 so you'll already have a system for Step 2. The biggest difference, is that you can do so much more in less time than before because you actually know what you're doing. Then again, my thoughts might be skewed because I didn't realize that most schools don't have students take regular call until sub-i, so that might be a change.
 
Looking back, I definitely miss the freedom of 1st and 2nd year where all you had to do was learn...

MS-1 was tough because you had to learn how to study efficiently and effectively.

MS-2 was a little easier for me because I developed a pattern and had a social life, but definitely a lot more reading.

MS-3 is the start of a transition where you have to learn how to work and still find time to study.... you are the lowest life form in the hospital but yet you still have to show up and participate in rounds.... but at least you can get the chance to work with patients and experience life as a doctor.

MS-4... by far the best year!

-R
 
I hear this argument all the time from the more starry eyed, naive members of my medical school. A few points:

1) I'm paying to be here. Not the reverse.
2) I'm a medical student, not a doctor. How much difference do you really think I can make?
3) There will be an entire career of service following these few years. Very shortly.
4) Any time that I spend that detracts from graduating with the scores I need to do with what I want with my life is unconditionally a bad move. It hurts me, and it hurts my future patients. I owe it to them to make the best of my medical education at the proper time, and the time to study books is now. Furthermore, while I deeply feel for her, it's not my fault that nobody else is holding 80 year old Mrs. Brown's hand and asking her about her grandkids while she's on dialysis.
5) Avoiding burnout is paramount.
A) You can't help everyone.

In conclusion, I feel that students like you get too caught up in playing doctor (nurse, really) and lose sight of why you are really here. Too often people like you in residency are the ones who have no idea what to do because they were too busy focusing on looking good, telling their folks back home how gosh darn important they are, and chastising others rather than preparing for tomorrow.

And look at that, I made my point without talking down or bolding for emphasis.

This.
 
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