Who else shows dogs?

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akitavet

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Are they your own dogs or do you co-own with your parents or someone else that will be taking care of them? How involved do you plan to be while in school? Would you consider doing a breeding while in school?
 
This is not my experience, but I do have a friend who is in medical school and shows Afghan Hounds. Her husband does a lot, since the shows are usually over weekends and he works from home, so a lot of times he'll drive out to the shows on Thursday or Friday and she will fly in on Saturday. She is definitely the expert on the dogs themselves though and makes a lot of the decisions regarding them.

One of their dogs is all theirs and the other is co-owned, but they are the primary caretakers. They are also very active in lure coursing. They'll have to do at least one breeding while she's in school since when the bitch is finished she has a date with a turkey baster for an already planned breeding. 😛 I don't think they will do any of their own breeding until she's done though, or at least until she's in a residency.

Some problems they've run into so far:

1) Because she's in med school they're sort of more restricted on how far away they can go to show. This results in it taking longer to finish a dog like the one they are currently showing - she is of a type that very specific judges will like, and going up against the same dogs for the same judges isn't working out well for her.

2) They can't afford a top-name professional handler who can finish her under those judges. Yay dog show politics!

So I've seen people be at least somewhat successful in that hobby while in professional school, but it takes a lot of outside support as well - I doubt she'd be able to do it on her own without her husband and his at-home engineering job.
 
I don't do conformation, but I actively train and trial my GSD in agility. We train every week and trial probably on average once or twice a month during the trial season. It's worked out fine for me. No pups for me, but if I were to have a litter I would have done it spring of last year (1st year) or this year (2nd year).
 
That's great news PAThbrd! I was hoping to hear responses like that! I dont intend to breed as of yet, but I wanted to make sure I will have time to show. I have a puppy that I will probably get started out at Canfield this summer. I hope to have a bunch of points on him before I start school. Im thinking I will have to miss our national though 🙁 Its in September in Utah. I was thinking that maybe I would take a bitch puppy back if someone had a bitch that I liked that wanted to use him, but he wouldnt be bred till he had clearances at 2 and then a bitch puppy wouldnt be bred until her clearances were done at 2 so by then, I am pretty much done with school (oh I hope!)
 
I don't do conformation, but I actively train and trial my GSD in agility. We train every week and trial probably on average once or twice a month during the trial season. It's worked out fine for me. No pups for me, but if I were to have a litter I would have done it spring of last year (1st year) or this year (2nd year).


That's really cool, PAThbrd. My GSD would love agility, and other things like search and rescue, obedience, even schutzhund which is just massive obedience training! I feel like I've done her wrong by not letting her utilize her immense intelligence. she's smarter than anyone else I've ever met. my hoo-dog.... 😍😍
 
I show Cardigan Welsh Corgis and my husband shows American Foxhounds. We are co-owners on all the dogs and as of now, we do all our showing ourselves as both our breeds are fairly non-political - easy for an owner-handler to finish a dog. And since my Cargi bitch had a litter last July and the pups with show potential are very nice (they started their show careers last month at the Florida circuit in Brooksville), they are being shown in bred-by only, so that means only my husband and I can show them in the classes. One of my puppy bitches won her first point at the Ocala shows last month.

I only applied to one school (University of Florida - instate), and I have an interview on March 8 (had an interview last year also, but didn't get in and did my file review with the dean and did exactly what the dean told me to do to increase my chances of getting accepted - hopefully it'll work😉). UF is 2 to 2 1/2 hours away (depending on how fast you drive!)from where my husband and I live. My 11 year old GSD is definitely coming up with me, and the Foxhound is staying with my husband,but we haven't decided yet how to split up the Corgis. Right now, we have 5 Corgis - the dam and 4 of her pups (we have already placed 3 in their new homes). Two of the pups we're definitely planning on keeping, and the other 2 we need to find the right homes for. Of the 2 we are keeping, one is a bitch and we are definitely breeding her in a couple years (she should be finished by then), so I will be having a litter while in vet school. The other one we are keeping is a male, and we plan on specialing him once he finishes as he appears to be specials material.

I just went to a George Alston handling seminar this past weekend and am so eager to apply what I learned. When he told us he was going to be back in Florida in October, I was so excited, but then I remembered I might be in vet school then! Oh, well, I guess I can give up a weekend of studying vet school material🙂
 
I show vizslas! Have 2 boys; one was my juniors dog (just neutered for medical reasons); one i have 2 pts on and I plan to show as much as possible before starting school! He also has his JH. I would like to breed someday long in the future, but have so much more to learn!
 
I do agility and obedience, mainly, with a smattering of field stuff thrown in. I have a Golden Retriever...she's kind of a pain. 🙂 But very cute. I have my dog at college with me now and obviously plan to take her with me to vet school. They are planning on building a new Working Dog Center near Penn, I hear. I considered breeding her this summer, actually, but decided that due to her allergies (and my total lack of experience with actual breeding) that I wasn't going to go through with it. I just don't feel that I could be responsible for 5-10 dogs for the rest of their lives at this time, and that's what (among many other things) a good breeder is prepared for. Now I am freaking out about her getting spayed.
 
we have an exotics vet that we work with that was totally nervous about having her bitch spayed too, so she took her out to Cleveland to see Hutchinson where they are doing laproscopic spays.
 
Sadly, I can't afford to go to Cleveland or to get a laparoscopic spay. But my vet is really great (see the "most memorable case" thread for evidence!) and I'm sure she'll be fine...I'm just a worrier about my animals.
 
They are planning on building a new Working Dog Center near Penn, I hear.
do you know anything about this? I hadn't heard anything, just curious...

If you're coming to Penn, there are very few clubs to do agility, flyball, rally, etc. but I can give you info on the ones that I've been at.
 
do you know anything about this? I hadn't heard anything, just curious...

If you're coming to Penn, there are very few clubs to do agility, flyball, rally, etc. but I can give you info on the ones that I've been at.

i'm curious too.
 
do you know anything about this? I hadn't heard anything, just curious...

If you're coming to Penn, there are very few clubs to do agility, flyball, rally, etc. but I can give you info on the ones that I've been at.

I am not a member of any clubs at the moment but I am fairly sure there are at least trials in the Philly area? I actually have an info sheet on the Working Dog Center but I don't know where it went...will have to look for it after d. bio studying. I should get to that, haha.
 
There are plenty of trials for agility, flyball, rally, conformation, etc. within an hour or 2 drive, just not too many places to train that are close enough to go to class on a weeknight. I drive about 45 min to an hour each way to my agility class every week. Philly traffic doesn't help either. And my apartment doesnt have much room for my a-frame, dogwalk, weaves, etc. 😉

But for trialing, I could do an AKC, NADAC, CPE, USDAA, or DOCNA trial almost every weekend if I wanted to.
 
I'm going to step on a bunch of toes, but that's okay, I don't mind. 😀

If all you do with your dogs is show them in conformation and consider that good enough to breed them, especially if you are "showing" a dog that historically had a working function, you are part of the huge problem that is destroying many fine breeds.

Take the German shepherd. Developed as a breed a little over a hundred years ago by Captain Max von Stephanitz to be first and foremost a working breed. He is famous for saying "Beauty is what serves a useful purpose." Dogs like these are a disgrace to his original breed:

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This poor puppy at only 4 months of age:

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These dogs, with this grotesque exaggerated stance and structure, are the epitome of what happens when show breeders breed for trends in the breed ring and not for working ability, health, nerves and temperament. This is why the average American bred German shepherd is often nervy, fearful, too sharp in temperament, plagued with hip and elbow problems, and on and on and on. It's atrocious!

A REAL German shepherd is going to be able to track, herd, protect, AND have stable nerves and drives to live and love their families. You don't see them walking on their hocks like rabbits or the 45 degree angle on their top line in a REAL German shepherd.

Archer_Herding_5.jpg



Atajump.jpg



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Some may say, I like the little companion breed dogs. That's fine if you wish to show them, but if they were bred to be companions, get them temperament tested by the American Temperament Test Society. I want to see CGCs on them. I want to see therapy dog certifications. I like to see other fun sport titles, even on little toy dogs (lots of Papillons and Chihuahuas love agility!). I DON'T want to see grooming and brushing the dog for hours on end, prancing around a ring, and thinking that's what makes the dog worthy of being bred. That's like saying all models should breed just because they're pretty. Gimme a break. 🙄 In other words, PROVE they are good little companions.

Once again, beauty is what serves a USEFUL purpose. If you don't need a high powered working or working sport dog, get a shelter/rescue dog or find a high quality responsible breeder that has pups that don't quite have it as far as working drive but they are still well bred and would make nice pups.

For some more food for thought...

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm

http://leerburg.com/gsd-gate.htm
 
If you are just doing performance testing and not evaluating your purebred breeding stock for structure and type, then you are doing a disservice to your breed. The entire purpose of the conformation dog show is to evaluate breeding stock for structure and type. If your structure is only okay, but you have a breed that has a high pain threshold and/or high work ethic, you may have a wonderful performance dog that breaks down in middle age instead of old age. If you dont have enough type to look like the breed you represent, then what is the point of breeding purebred dogs! There are plenty of mutts out there who can excel in performance events, but if you are going to breed purebred dogs, this should not be the only thing you are interested in.

Any dog that is to be bred should be a good representative of their breed. To me (and many conformation folks) this means that they should be able to excel in the conformation ring as well as the performance ring. Conformation is not for nothing. Its like a cursory test of breeding fitness.

My example of this going the other way is the rhodesian ridgeback. They are supposed to be a utility hound (sight and scent). They are supposed to be a dog with bone and substance, but the recent focus on lure coursing has driven the breed toward a faster looking type. Consequently, the breed as a whole has lost substance and gained tons of size. They look more like salukis every day. The focus on one part of performance with leniency in conformation has lead to a change in the breed that detracts from their overall purpose. This dog is supposed to be a protector, and I dont know about you, but I would rather have a real RR working as a hunter/guardian than a saluki-esque one.

Now, that being said, I agree that GSDs have become very extreme and even conformation labradors have become so thick that they would be useless in the water and many many breeds have too much coat to be any good in the field.

Oh, and the truth of the matter is that nowadays, very very few dogs are used for the purpose they are originally bred for. I have akitas. I dont intend to go bear hunting any time soon, but I think they are beautiful and the sounder the better. I dont want to do Schutzhund with such an independent breed because they are not as biddable as other protection breeds and make decisions independently (much more so than a GSD or Malinois), so its not technically an appropriate test of performance. We do not have a performance test currently in our breed that we use to evaluate performance, and we dont use them for performance anyway. Conformation is therefore our best test of breeding stock. Since mine are companions, I do CGC on everyone and TDI on temperaments that are eager to approach strangers (not a "correct" or typical temperament in the breed, after all they are guard dogs). I do obedience with mine, but more for fun than anything. I would not breed to an akita with poor conformation who happens to be particularly good at obedience. If I want an obedience dog, I will get a golden or a border collie.

As far as akitas go, I think that they are absolutely stunning and have come a LONG way in temperament over the last 10 years or so (esp in show lines, dont hold the puppy mills against us). People are naturally attracted to extremes in type and that's why the breeds exist. The dog fancy is called a "fancy" for that very reason.

By acquiring a purebred dog, I know what health conditions I am dealing with, I have consistency in type, size, temperament, etc. Im not saying shelter dogs are bad, but I am saying that the dogs in the shelter probably should never have been bred in the first place.

That's why I show, and that's why I will breed. To preserve, protect, and promote the breed I love.
 
I don't disagree with the earlier post about GSDs... I think american german shepherds are often terribly sad. BUT! for all of you interested in german shepherds, it's actually quite easy to get GERMAN german shepherds - there are breeders all around the states who follow german breed protocols, show in german conformation shows and shutzhund, etc. We have two GSDs, both german, both getting elderly with NO hip problems, gorgeous, athletic, and brilliant. 👍👍

I strongly also believe, though, that the real place for most of us to get dogs is from the shelter and hospital. a bit of hybrid vigour and real need - a perfect combination! :hardy:
 
My GSD is German descent, and is not an AKC conformation dog. She is straight backed, has great hips, is level headed, intelligent, and has an incredible working drive, everything a GSD should be. She has her CGC, is therapy dog certified, has multiple agility titles, and has trained flyball.

There is, in my opinion, nothing wrong with getting a well-bred purebred, especially one that exemplifies what the breed is supposed to be. When I get another dog, it will be another GSD because I know that I am getting the high drive, intelligent, working, loyal dog that it is supposed to be. And, when I know the bloodlines and the breeder, I know what kind of genetics and potential problems (health, temperament, or otherwise) I am getting into.
 
My comments in bold, to make it easier.

If you are just doing performance testing and not evaluating your purebred breeding stock for structure and type, then you are doing a disservice to your breed. The entire purpose of the conformation dog show is to evaluate breeding stock for structure and type. If your structure is only okay, but you have a breed that has a high pain threshold and/or high work ethic, you may have a wonderful performance dog that breaks down in middle age instead of old age. If you dont have enough type to look like the breed you represent, then what is the point of breeding purebred dogs! There are plenty of mutts out there who can excel in performance events, but if you are going to breed purebred dogs, this should not be the only thing you are interested in.

Form follows function. A dog is not going to be able to do its job if it is structurally unsound, just like a truck wouldn't be able to haul anything or a race car would break down at the track if they were structurally unsound. The idea of "purebred" is a very new idea indeed in the very long partnership we've had with dogs. If it could herd sheep, it was a shepherd. If followed game visually, by scent, or down into the ground, it was a sight hound, scent hound, or terrier.

Where in the world did you get the idea that high drive dogs break down in middle age? That's completely counter intuitive. I know a LOT of working dog handlers and breeders from this country and worldwide. I don't know of a single one that randomly has dogs "break down" in middle age. The breeder of my 100% working lines 10 month old Belgian Malinois puppy has her dogs working at French Ring until their teens. I also know one of the breeders of some of the highest drive working dogs in the world who breeds Dutch shepherds for KNPV (the Dutch police dog trials). She likewise has her dogs working until their early teens. Working ability, by definition, must include longevity. It does no one any good for training police, SAR, military working, assistance dogs, etc if they go through years of training and can only do their job for a few short years.


Any dog that is to be bred should be a good representative of their breed. To me (and many conformation folks) this means that they should be able to excel in the conformation ring as well as the performance ring. Conformation is not for nothing. Its like a cursory test of breeding fitness.

So I guess super models are just the pinnacle of the human race, eh? The cursory test of breeding fitness is being washed, groomed, and run around a ring? Wow. That says little if anything to its temperament, health, intelligence, or working ability, the true character of the dog. And please read those articles I originally posted if you haven't done so. They are very illuminating as to the trends and fads in the show ring, breed standard be darned.

My example of this going the other way is the rhodesian ridgeback. They are supposed to be a utility hound (sight and scent). They are supposed to be a dog with bone and substance, but the recent focus on lure coursing has driven the breed toward a faster looking type. Consequently, the breed as a whole has lost substance and gained tons of size. They look more like salukis every day. The focus on one part of performance with leniency in conformation has lead to a change in the breed that detracts from their overall purpose. This dog is supposed to be a protector, and I dont know about you, but I would rather have a real RR working as a hunter/guardian than a saluki-esque one.

I'd rather have a Saluki-type dog to protect me that was actually challenged with some sort of work that requires more than sleeping in a kennel or on the couch except when it's time to get in the van for the dog show than the equivalent of a dog that looks like a Ferrari with the engine of a Volkswagen.

Now, that being said, I agree that GSDs have become very extreme and even conformation labradors have become so thick that they would be useless in the water and many many breeds have too much coat to be any good in the field.

Most conformation labs couldn't track or retrieve their way out of a paper bag. 🙄

Oh, and the truth of the matter is that nowadays, very very few dogs are used for the purpose they are originally bred for. I have akitas. I dont intend to go bear hunting any time soon, but I think they are beautiful and the sounder the better. I dont want to do Schutzhund with such an independent breed because they are not as biddable as other protection breeds and make decisions independently (much more so than a GSD or Malinois), so its not technically an appropriate test of performance. We do not have a performance test currently in our breed that we use to evaluate performance, and we dont use them for performance anyway. Conformation is therefore our best test of breeding stock. Since mine are companions, I do CGC on everyone and TDI on temperaments that are eager to approach strangers (not a "correct" or typical temperament in the breed, after all they are guard dogs). I do obedience with mine, but more for fun than anything. I would not breed to an akita with poor conformation who happens to be particularly good at obedience. If I want an obedience dog, I will get a golden or a border collie.

I 100% agree that your average owner should not be owning a working lines Malinois. :laugh: However, even from the finest bred working litter, some of the pups are just not going to have it. Just like some show line pups, even if their pedigree is peppered with "champions," are not (fill in the blank) enough for the show ring. Make sense? That's perfect for folks who want a well bred dog with solid temperament and health from appropriate health testing, but who would like a fun active companion and not a world class military working dog or search and rescue dog.

Akitas were bear hunting and fighting dogs, yes? Why not have them do tracking or agility or carting or rally, for instance? Most people don't have a flock of sheep to herd with their border collie and Aussies, so they do agility. Most people don't hunt rabbits or badgers in holes, so they do Earth Dog. Most don't need to do live coursing with their sight hounds, so they do lure coursing. Most people don't want to fight their pit bulls, so they do weight pull to test gameness. For most dogs and their original job, there is some kind of sport or working sport that can substitute for their original purpose to test that they have more than just fluff between their ears. And certainly, like you said, definitely get those CGCs and TDIs. That's certainly a good start. 👍

As far as akitas go, I think that they are absolutely stunning and have come a LONG way in temperament over the last 10 years or so (esp in show lines, dont hold the puppy mills against us). People are naturally attracted to extremes in type and that's why the breeds exist. The dog fancy is called a "fancy" for that very reason.

By acquiring a purebred dog, I know what health conditions I am dealing with, I have consistency in type, size, temperament, etc. Im not saying shelter dogs are bad, but I am saying that the dogs in the shelter probably should never have been bred in the first place.

I'm saying that the majority of purebred dogs shouldn't have been bred in the first place. With breeding only with conformation in mind (which is what many show people only do!), that's precisely what you get. Trends and fads in looks that sorely lack in character, temperament, health, and working ability. Once again, is a Ferrari still a Ferrari if it has a VW engine in it, even though it looks like a Ferrari? NO WAY.

That's why I show, and that's why I will breed. To preserve, protect, and promote the breed I love.

Least you get the wrong idea, if people wish to show along with doing some kind of work, working sport, or sport or other activity with their dog, by all means do so (I personally find it boring), but let us have no illusions that the conformation ring is some sort of end all be all to what makes a dog even remotely worthy of breeding. It's no more a true test of the character of a dog than a beauty pageant is a test of the character of the girls who compete. Heck, they even to have some sort of talent competition at beauty pageants, right?
 
Electrophile, I think you have some misconceptions about conformation showing. The dogs are evaluated for how well they conform to the breed standard in form and structure, not how "pretty" they are. Don't get me wrong, I think that proving that your dog can do what it's bred to do is very important, but I also think that conformation showing has its place in ensuring that a breed retains the qualities that make it what it is.
 
Electrophile, I think you have some misconceptions about conformation showing. The dogs are evaluated for how well they conform to the breed standard in form and structure, not how "pretty" they are. Don't get me wrong, I think that proving that your dog can do what it's bred to do is very important, but I also think that conformation showing has its place in ensuring that a breed retains the qualities that make it what it is.

You 100% missed the point of both my posts. The qualities of a breed is in its temperament, working ability, loyalty, and intelligence. Not if it has an extra white spot on its chest or if it doesn't happen to have the trendy head piece that's currently sought after. I know perfectly well the nature of conformation shows. I've seen numerous conformation shows in person (in fact, there's one next weekend here in town) and who can forget Westminster and Crufts. Anyone who thinks that dog shows in the least bit honor the origins and character of the breed and doesn't pander to trends and fads is naive. Go back and look at the photos of the show versus working German shepherds again and tell me that the quality of the German shepherd (or any other dog that was designed with a job in mind) is preserved in those animals.
 
Electrophile, I think you have some misconceptions about conformation showing. The dogs are evaluated for how well they conform to the breed standard in form and structure, not how "pretty" they are. Don't get me wrong, I think that proving that your dog can do what it's bred to do is very important, but I also think that conformation showing has its place in ensuring that a breed retains the qualities that make it what it is.

Honestly, what wins in the breed ring often does NOT conform to the breed standard. Golden Retrievers, and Labs, for instance, as to be shown "in hard working condition". If your Golden or Lab is winning in the breed ring, you can assume it is 15-20 lb overweight. Goldens are bred with hugely heavy bone, not medium as the standard says. And many of them could not complete a hunt test to save their lives. They are too big, bulky, and hairy. That is not the point of a Golden.

Look at Rottweilers, half of the breed dogs have microophthalmia. Chihuahuas are prone to hydrocephalus (congenital, obviously). Bostons and Bulldogs, among others, have major breathing problems to the point of being at significant risk for heat stroke. Do you think a Bulldog who collapses in the heat could really fight a bull? Norwich Terriers all have everted laryngeal saccules. GSDs have developed narrow chests and very east-west feet because the focus of the breeding has been on extreme rear angulation, plus their hocks are so destabilized that they waver obviously when the dogs trot.

I think breed showing and conforming to the breed standard IS very important, and I place emphasis on that as well as on performance, but the fact is that many or most of the dogs in the breed ring cannot perform! Many are bizarre mutants of what they used to be. That's very unfortunate, and I don't want a dog who can only trot around a ring.

FYI, there have been only two American Dual Champion Golden Retrievers since the 1960s. Currently there is ONE living DC in North America, and he is a Canadian DC (amazing dog, too).
 
Personally I mostly agree with both of your points. I myself would never buy a dog from a breeder who did not compete in field trials or somehow work their dogs, even if their dog won BIS at Westminster last year. I do see where there is a point to conformation showing as an idea though. The implementation may be screwy and rife with politics and extreme phenotypes (GSD, bulldog, etc) but the idea is a good one, to me.
 
this thread isn't worth my time, and i certainly won't revisit it, but i feel strongly enough about electrophiles comments to say that i am THRILLED i don't go to missouri.

edit: i'm sorry, i take that back; i will revisit it if it turns from the unsubstantiated breed bashing to the OP's original topic.
 
Im sorry, but you must have totally misunderstood my post. The point was not that we should be breeding Ferrari's with VW engines. The point was that we should not be breeding VWs with Ferrari engines. We should be breeding Ferrari's with Ferrari engines! Its not about pretty, its about correct.
 
this thread isn't worth my time, and i certainly won't revisit it, but i feel strongly enough about electrophiles comments to say that i am THRILLED i don't go to missouri.

edit: i'm sorry, i take that back; i will revisit it if it turns from the unsubstantiated breed bashing to the OP's original topic.

Ah yes, I love it when people can't defend their opinion (does the truth hurt?) and so just storm out of a thread. 🙄 Breed bashing? Um, what breed bashing? I don't fault the breed nor the animals themselves for the silly whims of their humans. I just feel sorry for the poor dogs, who probably would sorely rather wish to be participating in much more interesting dog sports like tracking, rally, flyball, Schutzhund, Earthdog, lure coursing, carting, weight pulling, sledding, ring sport, field trials, dock diving, agility, disc sport, etc rather than being pranced around a ring. If you want to show, that's your business, but like I said, let us have no naive assumptions that it's the end all be all of what should or should not be bred.

Here are this year's world class Westminster competitors in the Malinois breed ring. Almost all of them look under exercised and over weight and quite a handful look fearful and nervous with their ears back and tails between their legs. And these are the best of the best?

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=216646

Here are some world class Malinois competing and participating in Schutzhund, KNPV, ring sport, and other protections sports.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m9R8Uh2GFg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-LI7f1YuBw

Which is a better test of character of a dog bred to work? Which looks like more fun? 😀 Go show your little toy/companion breed dogs. They were indeed meant to look pretty. But for goodness sakes, at least get them temperament and health tested first! Because we all need more toy poodles with luxating patellas and that snap at everyone but their owner. 🙄 And stay away from the working dogs!!!

Did you or anyone actually go to the links I posted earlier? See this link in particular:

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm
 
Im sorry, but you must have totally misunderstood my post. The point was not that we should be breeding Ferrari's with VW engines. The point was that we should not be breeding VWs with Ferrari engines. We should be breeding Ferrari's with Ferrari engines! Its not about pretty, its about correct.

My point is that when you breed for "correct" conformation and not for working ability, you end up with Ferraris with VW engines! I don't believe I ever said we should breed VWs with Ferrari engines as that makes no sense. And as far as "correct" goes, to once again mention the noble German shepherd, Max von Stephanitz pretty much came up with the breed standard. Here's a few examples from about 100 years ago of his dogs:


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So which ones are more "correct" to the original standard? These dogs? Or those train wrecks I had pictures from up above? But which one wins the dog shows in the US? Hmmm...

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PS...CanadianGolden, you are right on. 👍👍👍
 
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