Who fails COMLEX?

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sabsaf123

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I've heard people say that low class rank = high chance of failing COMLEX. My question is, how low of a class rank are we talking about? If someone is going to a DO school with a ~93% COMLEX pass rate, and they are below avg do they still have a high chance of passing? For example, if someone is studying their absolute hardest and this lands them in the bottom ~20th percentile, I'm assuming that passing shouldn't be a concern? Is it more of a concern for those in the bottom 5-10%?

I also realize that other situations play large role and it's not just class rank. Obvi the top student can have a death in the family, health issues, etc. I'm more interested in discussing those students that can't pass due to academic issues.
 
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who told you that? i had a low class rank and had an above average comlex. i know of a top quartile student who barely passed both levels. the thing is that you don't get to the top of the class by just getting by and those people really understand the material, and you have some students that are barely getting by and end up failing because they don't understand the material well enough. But to say that having a low class rank gives you a good chance at failing is just plain wrong.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
who told you that? i had a low class rank and had an above average comlex. i know of a top quartile student who barely passed both levels. the thing is that you don't get to the top of the class by just getting by and those people really understand the material, and you have some students that are barely getting by and end up failing because they don't understand the material well enough. But to say that having a low class rank gives you a good chance at failing is just plain wrong.
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The lower the class rank the higher the chance of comlex failure. Im sure we can all point out exceptions. However, there are numerous statistics online regarding this.
 
gobigorgohome22 said:
Wait a minute! You're telling me the administration at almost all DO schools is wrong when they say studying for class = studying for boards?! How dare you!
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This part is absolutely right. You need the foundation before you start the board review. Hence why people with a high class rank/GPA tend to do better on COMLEX overall.
 
gobigorgohome22 said:
Wait a minute! You're telling me the administration at almost all DO schools is wrong when they say studying for class = studying for boards?! How dare you!
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:laugh:
OP, there are two types of low class rank students - the one who tries everything but still do meh and the one who only turns it up when it matters. The latter is less likely to fail on the board d/t most of them study for board and ignore class materials (usually in 2nd year).
Mad Jack said:
My school doesn't have a class rank. Does that mean we all succeed or we all fail? 😉
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I'm going to bet $100 that you're going to pass. Anyone wants to take that bet?
 
kenjixshadow said:
:laugh:
OP, there are two types of low class rank students - the one who tries everything but still do meh and the one who only turns it up when it matters. The latter is less likely to fail on the board d/t most of them study for board and ignore class materials (usually in 2nd year).

I'm going to bet $100 that you're going to pass. Anyone wants to take that bet?
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Oh I'll pass. I'm just hoping I can get a 230+ so I can do what I would like.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
who told you that? i had a low class rank and had an above average comlex. i know of a top quartile student who barely passed both levels. the thing is that you don't get to the top of the class by just getting by and those people really understand the material, and you have some students that are barely getting by and end up failing because they don't understand the material well enough. But to say that having a low class rank gives you a good chance at failing is just plain wrong.
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So at what point do you start feeling like you'll at least pass? I feel like from Day 1 of first year till the day I take COMLEX in 2nd year I'll be super anxious about passing that test. I mean if you don't pass, then you still have like ~100k in debt, and with residencies becoming more competitive, I'd question whether I should just cut my losses.
 
gobigorgohome22 said:
Wait a minute! You're telling me the administration at almost all DO schools is wrong when they say studying for class = studying for boards?! How dare you!
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Studying for class = studying for boards, and sitting in a poorly air conditioned, cramped lecture hall with hard-as-steel chairs watching a lecturers 200 ft away is a much better way to absorb information than listening to the recording thereof in my nice, quiet, well-lit home office with my pajamas on and pausing and taking notes as needed.
 
At my school, it's the people in the bottom 10% who are most at risk.

Of these, it's the people with the worst work ethics, and lack of thorough preparation.

Surprising failures from good students tend to be the result of some last minute life surprise.

Generally, the students who are only to happy to barely pass with a 72% do the worst in COMLEX. If your GPA is 3.0 or better, you're fine.




sabsaf123 said:
I've heard people say that low class rank = high chance of failing COMLEX. My question is, how low of a class rank are we talking about? If someone is going to a DO school with a ~93% COMLEX pass rate, and they are below avg do they still have a high chance of passing? For example, if someone is studying their absolute hardest and this lands them in the bottom ~20th percentile, I'm assuming that passing shouldn't be a concern? Is it more of a concern for those in the bottom 5-10%?

I also realize that other situations play large role and it's not just class rank. Obvi the top student can have a death in the family, health issues, etc. I'm more interested in discussing those students that can't pass due to academic issues.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
At my school, it's the people in the bottom 10% who are most at risk.

Of these, it's the people with the worst work ethics, and lack of thorough preparation.

Surprising failures from good students tend to be the result of some last minute life surprise.

Generally, the students who are only to happy to barely pass with a 72% do the worst in COMLEX. If your GPA is 3.0 or better, you're fine.
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Thanks Goro! Also do you have any info on whether or not USMLE Step 1 will be nearly required in the coming years? I've read you're previous posts, and you always say that the weakest students should not take Step 1. What do you mean by the weakest? Bottom 10%? With the merger, will even these students have to take Step 1?
 
sabsaf123 said:
Thanks Goro! Also do you have any info on whether or not USMLE Step 1 will be nearly required in the coming years? I've read you're previous posts, and you always say that the weakest students should not take Step 1. What do you mean by the weakest? Bottom 10%? With the merger, will even these students have to take Step 1?
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You can swing the match without Step 1, but you're going to close a lot of doors. More places, rather than less, are currently accepting COMLEX though, for the record. It's just that the percentile many programs want COMLEX-wise is usually in the 50th-60th (into the 500s) percentile for a minimum cutoff, while their cutoffs for the USMLE are often in the 30th percentile or even lower for some community IM and better FM programs (210-220). I'll dig up some examples from FREIDA later.
 
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Nope.
Also do you have any info on whether or not USMLE Step 1 will be nearly required in the coming years?

Students with a GPA < 2.5 or 75%.
I've read you're previous posts, and you always say that the weakest students should not take Step 1. What do you mean by the weakest?

Haven't a clue. I don't COMLEX is going away for awhile.
With the merger, will even these students have to take Step 1?
 
Mad Jack said:
My school doesn't have a class rank. Does that mean we all succeed or we all fail? 😉
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I have some news for you. 100% of medical schools have a class rank. Yes, including your's. Also-they will send it out to residency programs in your MSPE.

I dont know why, but for some reason a lot of DO schools insist that they "have no class rank", but be assured that you (and everyone else reading this) have a very real class rank.
 
WeeBay said:
I have some news for you. 100% of medical schools have a class rank. Yes, including your's. Also-they will send it out to residency programs in your MSPE.

I dont know why, but for some reason a lot of DO schools insist that they "have no class rank", but be assured that you (and everyone else reading this) have a very real class rank.
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I've been assured by both the school and by program directors that review the applications that this is not the case. Due to the way our grades are set up (it's a competency-based system in MS1 and MS2) even calculating a class rank in preclinical would be virtually impossible. A clinical grade would be more manageable, but would essentially be meaningless since our shelves are pass/fail and do not contribute to our grades, thus making our entire evaluation our preceptor's subjective eval, and 80-90% of them just give students straight "Meets Expectations" which nets a high pass. The AACOM actually has a list of schools which do not collect or report quartiles and class ranks- there are 8 osteopathic schools which do not collect a rank or report one for clinical or preclinical. I'll dig up the list for you later.

Seriously though, talk to any PD that's ever reviewed a UNECOM applicant. There's no code words, no rank, no nothing. That's just how we roll.
 
Mad Jack said:
I've been assured by both the school and by program directors that review the applications that this is not the case. Due to the way our grades are set up (it's a competency-based system in MS1 and MS2) even calculating a class rank in preclinical would be virtually impossible. A clinical grade would be more manageable, but would essentially be meaningless since our shelves are pass/fail and do not contribute to our grades, thus making our entire evaluation our preceptor's subjective eval, and 80-90% of them just give students straight "Meets Expectations" which nets a high pass. The AACOM actually has a list of schools which do not collect or report quartiles and class ranks- there are 8 osteopathic schools which do not collect a rank or report one for clinical or preclinical. I'll dig up the list for you later.

Seriously though, talk to any PD that's ever reviewed a UNECOM applicant. There's no code words, no rank, no nothing. That's just how we roll.
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In 4 the list
 
Here - there is probably more recent data:

PbYugFv.jpg


Edit: I've located the original paper:
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...y-indicators-to-predict-success-on-comlex.pdf
 
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People fail for one of two reasons, either they didn't study enough or they are particularly bad at standardized tests. I think the most recent report with the MCAT said that 1/6 the people with <24 on the MCAT had issues passing boards on their first try. There is also absolutely a correlation between pre-clinical grades and boards.

Study, do tons of questions, and take lots of practice tests. Most people will be absolutely fine.
 
sylvanthus said:
This part is absolutely right. You need the foundation before you start the board review. Hence why people with a high class rank/GPA tend to do better on COMLEX overall.
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This isn't the case at my school at all, mainly because they do a poor job at teaching the foundation. It's largely up to the individual how they're going to do on boards.
 
WeeBay said:
I have some news for you. 100% of medical schools have a class rank. Yes, including your's. Also-they will send it out to residency programs in your MSPE.

I dont know why, but for some reason a lot of DO schools insist that they "have no class rank", but be assured that you (and everyone else reading this) have a very real class rank.
Click to expand...

Not true actually.

I interviewed multiple 4th year students for our residency program this year and there are definitely schools who have no class rank.
 
NontradCA said:
This isn't the case at my school at all, mainly because they do a poor job at teaching the foundation. It's largely up to the individual how they're going to do on boards.
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I agree with this.

My school liked to teach lots and lots (and lots) of supplemental stuff that wasn't going to be on boards. (Not that this stuff wasn't useful - on the contrary, some of that knowledge comes into play rather frequently when I'm on the job as a resident.) On the other hand, COMLEX (and especially the USMLE) featured plenty of things that were not ever taught in class.

The strong correlations we see above have more to do with other factors - namely work ethic.
 
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costales said:
Here - there is probably more recent data:

PbYugFv.jpg
Click to expand...

unless I'm reading the graph incorrectly, it looks like A LOT of ppl get sub 400 (aka failing) complex scores. If you just draw a horizontal line at 400, there's definitely a bunch of failures even among 3.0+ gpa's

edit: lol cell autocorrect for me as well
 
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sabsaf123 said:
unless I'm reading the graph incorrectly, it looks like A LOT of ppl get sub 400 (aka failing) complex scores. If you just draw a horizontal line at 400, there's definitely a bunch of failures even among 3.0+ gpa's

edit: lol cell autocorrect for me as well
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That was my thought as well. Something seems odd.
 
ortnakas said:
That was my thought as well. Something seems odd.
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Based on some of the questions I've seen, it may be the test itself. Lots of, "here's a sentence. What answer am I thinking of?" Questions. And typos. Because $560 doesn't include proof reading your own questions.

But I'm not bitter. 😉
 
the COMLEX's poor quality has been criticized for years and years-- almost universally so. yet no one seems to have ever wanted to do anything to improve it.
 
GimpGenius said:
Based on some of the questions I've seen, it may be the test itself. Lots of, "here's a sentence. What answer am I thinking of?" Questions. And typos. Because $560 doesn't include proof reading your own questions.

But I'm not bitter. 😉
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Haven't taken it yet, but based on Combank I'm inclined to agree with you. However, I'm still confused because these graphs don't really correspond to most schools' 90%+ pass rates.
 
ortnakas said:
Haven't taken it yet, but based on Combank I'm inclined to agree with you. However, I'm still confused because these graphs don't really correspond to most schools' 90%+ pass rates.
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By the looks of the graph, it seems like 1/3 failed. Is it really possible, that in reality, only 70% pass COMLEX?
 
user3 said:
the COMLEX's poor quality has been criticized for years and years-- almost universally so. yet no one seems to have ever wanted to do anything to improve it.
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My path professor basically said it's erratic, poorly funded, and not anywhere as clinical valid as the USMLE. But I guess putting up with random poorly written OS questions is what we have to put up with as DO students.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
My path professor basically said it's erratic, poorly funded, and not anywhere as clinical valid as the USMLE. But I guess putting up with random poorly written OS questions is what we have to put up with as DO students.
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That's what happens when an exam is formed by having random professors from random schools submit questions to the NBOME.
 
Mad Jack said:
the number of failures was downright horrifying.
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Can any 3rd years pleasseeeeee clarify? Either this graph is wrong or the data schools send out is wrong. According to this graph ~30%+ fail while other sources say only 7% fail. What gives?

Did you 3rd/4th years really notice 30% of your fellow classmates failing COMLEX? Is this graph not reliable?
 
Mad Jack said:
Shocking to me how many people score <500 on the COMLEX. That's the cutoff score for the majority of ACGME programs in my area that accept the COMLEX, it's kind of crazy that damn near half of DOs would be ineligible. And the number of failures was downright horrifying.
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The average nationally is usually around a 520 ( My school apparently gets on average 15 points higher so I guess it's probably a bit deflated by newer schools). But I heard they redid the scoring in 2015 and it's become harder so the average is closer to 500 probably. So yah...

Honestly, I'm terrified of all the COMLEX steps. My school started giving us comlex style OS questions and they're awful and give no time to think them through ( As if I'm going to genuinely remember what side of the table I'm on when I'm doing a technique).
 
Mad Jack said:
Shocking to me how many people score <500 on the COMLEX. That's the cutoff score for the majority of ACGME programs in my area that accept the COMLEX, it's kind of crazy that damn near half of DOs would be ineligible. And the number of failures was downright horrifying.
Click to expand...

Class of 2011-2014. Entrance stats have risen since then and USMLE pass rates for DOs have gotten better too.

I remember back in 2005 I had a family friend who got into CCOM with a ~21 MCAT.
 
chizledfrmstone said:
Class of 2011-2014. Entrance stats have risen since then and USMLE pass rates for DOs have gotten better too.

I remember back in 2005 I had a family friend who got into CCOM with a ~21 MCAT.
Click to expand...


Idk, it's still an 6-8% failure rate.
 
chizledfrmstone said:
Class of 2011-2014. Entrance stats have risen since then and USMLE pass rates for DOs have gotten better too.

I remember back in 2005 I had a family friend who got into CCOM with a ~21 MCAT.
Click to expand...
Unlike the USMLE, they re-scale the COMLEX every 4-5 years so that a 500 is the new average. So if you keep getting smarter students, the COMLEX keeps getting harder, unlike the USMLE, where scores keep slowly ticking up and the bar to fail moves with it.

The problem with this is that many residencies set their COMLEX score at the 50th-75th percentile, while their USMLE scores are at the 15th percentile- I was looking at one program that had a minimum 200 for the USMLE and a 540 for the COMLEX, for instance. Depending on how they set their cutoffs, that means we have to hit both, which really hurts us given the recent recalibration- a 200 on the USMLE is easy AF to get, but a 540 COMLEX means I'm going to have to spend way more time with Savarese than I'd like, which detracts from my USMLE.
 
Mad Jack said:
Unlike the USMLE, they re-scale the COMLEX every 4-5 years so that a 500 is the new average. So if you keep getting smarter students, the COMLEX keeps getting harder, unlike the USMLE, where scores keep slowly ticking up and the bar to fail moves with it.
Click to expand...

Been on this site for years and still learning something new everyday.
 
chizledfrmstone said:
Been on this site for years and still learning something new everyday.
Click to expand...
http://www.nbome.org/standardsetting_faq.asp

Unlike the USMLE, where they increase the cut score (188 to 192, for instance), on the COMLEX, they rescale the pass bar to match the percent correct (so a 400 would have been 67% before, but now it's a 70%, for instance), thus making the scale reset every few years and become more difficult.
 
500 used to be the mean and now it's 520 with an SD of 85 according to my transcript from a summer 2015 COMLEX 1. So it shouldn't be surprising that so many students score under 500.
 
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