Who makes the initial decision to interview an applicant?

[Target2]

Is it the PD, PC, chief resident?

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[NotAProgDirector]

Each program is different. There is no one correct answer.

 

[viper930]

Just out of curiosity, are there programs at which the PC has the power to grant interviews without the prior approval of the PD or other faculty?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Just out of curiosity, are there programs at which the PC has the power to grant interviews without the prior approval of the PD or other faculty?

Yes.

Particularly at some larger programs; applicants are invited after a screening by the PC - basically just based on numbers.

As said above, every program is different in how it is handled.

 

[Quink]

Each program is different. There is no one correct answer.

aPD is correct. But please remember that some Program Coordinators are often highly experienced administrators with advanced degrees. The common expectation that most PCs are secretaries is no longer true. Another reason to be sure to treat the PC as well as the PD and faculty/residents.

 

[Olenadr]

Just out of curiosity, are there programs at which the PC has the power to grant interviews without the prior approval of the PD or other faculty?

some PCs have advanced degrees, masters, JD, among other degrees, and in some cases have been a PC longer than the PD has been a PD, so are actually more experienced.

 

[knockoutMice]

At what point does a program read the LORs & PS?

Before sending the interview or before the actual interview of the candidate?

I mean, does LORs & PS come into the process of decision making while granting an interview?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

At what point does a program read the LORs & PS?

Before sending the interview or before the actual interview of the candidate?

I mean, does LORs & PS come into the process of decision making while granting an interview?

Again this is going to vary from specialty to specialty, program to program. There is no one answer to this question.

 

[EMmotherhen]

We don't offer interviews if your application doesn't have SLORs or a PS. Some programs may beg to differ but overall most want a complete application to read before making offers. A wimpy SLOR can be the deciding factor - you might be the genius who kicked butt on the USMLE but if your attendings weren't impressed with your actual abilities then most programs are going to let your application go.

 

[shan564]

We don't offer interviews if your application doesn't have SLORs or a PS. Some programs may beg to differ but overall most want a complete application to read before making offers. A wimpy SLOR can be the deciding factor - you might be the genius who kicked butt on the USMLE but if your attendings weren't impressed with your actual abilities then most programs are going to let your application go.

Do you often see "wimpy" LORs? I'm surprised somebody would ask for LOR from a person who might not write a strong one...

 

[Gastrin]

We don't offer interviews if your application doesn't have SLORs or a PS. Some programs may beg to differ but overall most want a complete application to read before making offers. A wimpy SLOR can be the deciding factor - you might be the genius who kicked butt on the USMLE but if your attendings weren't impressed with your actual abilities then most programs are going to let your application go.

Forgive I am a FMG, it was my understanding that an attending would rather choose to decline writing a LOR if he/she didn't have anything good to say about the student.
So what exactly defines a wimpy LOR? Do you mean may be a neutral LOR?

So the situation as it stands - PDs set the ERAS program to screen out applicants with low step scores (many of whom might have excellent LORs) and for candidates who score highly on the steps, they can still get rejected if their LORs are not commensurate with their scores?

So can it happen that a student with 240 and an average LOR gets chosen over a candidate with 260 and an average LOR?

That would be a little frustrating.

 

[sunset823]

If you meant:

So can it happen that a student with 240 and an great LOR gets chosen over a candidate with 260 and an average LOR?

the answer is yes. Once you've reached a certain threshold (like 240), your step scores matter less than your actual clinical abilities, represented by your LORs (and MSPEs for US students). It is also specialty dependent, I've heard IM is more numbers oriented but EM is more into SLORs once you've reached the threshold of competence. But of course, this is coming from a fellow applicant, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[shan564]

Forgive I am a FMG, it was my understanding that an attending would rather choose to decline writing a LOR if he/she didn't have anything good to say about the student.

Everybody is different. You can't assume that every attending will respond to a LOR request in the exact same way.

So what exactly defines a wimpy LOR? Do you mean may be a neutral LOR?

"___ rotated through my department for 4 weeks between (date) and (date). He was always punctual and completed required tasks appropriately. I believe that his knowledge level is appropriate for a student at his level. His clinical demeanor was very professional. He is clearly interested in (specialty). I wish him the best of luck in his future endeavors. etc etc etc."

So the situation as it stands - PDs set the ERAS program to screen out applicants with low step scores (many of whom might have excellent LORs) and for candidates who score highly on the steps, they can still get rejected if their LORs are not commensurate with their scores?

So can it happen that a student with 240 and an average LOR gets chosen over a candidate with 260 and an average LOR?

No, I think you're overanalyzing the previous comment. Your letters don't have to be "commensurate" with your scores, they just have to be decent. You get a lot of people with 260+ on Step 1 who know everything about biochemistry, but can't put together a coherent sentence. And you get lots of people with 260+ who are all-around rock stars. But if you have weak LORs, then your high score may not save you.

 

[EMmotherhen]

Yes, we get SLORS that are very generic and bland. As Shan564 said, the whole "we wish him well" can often mean you're not ranking top tier at that school! Also, I've read letters stating things like a structured curriculum environment could help his/her study habits. Ummmm...yeah. Some faculty are going to honest - brutally honest - if they feel you need the help.

 

[darksideone]

Do you often see "wimpy" LORs? I'm surprised somebody would ask for LOR from a person who might not write a strong one...

No applicant asks an attending to write a LOR if they don't think it will be strong. We all think our LORs are strong letters. The issue is whether they are strong or not. Since you sign the release form, you have no idea. Unless on the interview trail those interviewing you comment how they were impressed by your LORs. Otherwise, you have no idea what kind of a letter has preceded your arrival for an interview.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Do you often see "wimpy" LORs? I'm surprised somebody would ask for LOR from a person who might not write a strong one...

Remember students and attendings are people too.

The student might not be savvy enough to realize that just because an attending is nice, doesn't mean that they have no reservations about their performance.

And attendings might feel uncomfortable turning down a request for a letter or being brutally honest about what they will write. I think that's unfair, but I'd rather be transparent than shaft someone with the deadly "we wish them well" (implying that we are not highly recruiting them for our own program) or "feel free to contact me to discuss this applicant further" (implying that I am not going to put my concerns in writing).

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Part of the issue here is we're talking about a "SLOR". This is similar to the IM Department letter, but for EM. If you apply to EM, most programs require a SLOR. It's not written by a single person, but instead an overall aggregate of your performance assessed by everyone, compared with everyone else who rotated in the ED. If you were in the bottom 1/4 of ED rotators, that's exactly what it will say. It's much easier for a group letter to be "weak" than an individual letter.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Part of the issue here is we're talking about a "SLOR". This is similar to the IM Department letter, but for EM. If you apply to EM, most programs require a SLOR. It's not written by a single person, but instead an overall aggregate of your performance assessed by everyone, compared with everyone else who rotated in the ED. If you were in the bottom 1/4 of ED rotators, that's exactly what it will say. It's much easier for a group letter to be "weak" than an individual letter.

Gotcha...I missed that part.

 

[gutonc]

No applicant asks an attending to write a LOR if they don't think it will be strong. We all think our LORs are strong letters. The issue is whether they are strong or not. Since you sign the release form, you have no idea. Unless on the interview trail those interviewing you comment how they were impressed by your LORs. Otherwise, you have no idea what kind of a letter has preceded your arrival for an interview.

An otherwise remarkably useless (although very bright, and fun at parties) attending at my med school used to say "never ask someone if they will write you a LOR. Ask them if they will write you an excellent LOR. If they say "no" thank them for their time and move on."

Moral of the story is that you need to be proactive. Med school faculty get asked to write dozens of letters each year. Believe me when I say they would be more than happy to not write ones that they think will be a waste of paper. Take responsibility for yourself and ask if they'll write you a strong/excellent letter. If they can't say "yes" to that, it's not a letter you want to have.

 

[EMmotherhen]

An otherwise remarkably useless (although very bright, and fun at parties) attending at my med school used to say "never ask someone if they will write you a LOR. Ask them if they will write you an excellent LOR. If they say "no" thank them for their time and move on."

Moral of the story is that you need to be proactive. Med school faculty get asked to write dozens of letters each year. Believe me when I say they would be more than happy to not write ones that they think will be a waste of paper. Take responsibility for yourself and ask if they'll write you a strong/excellent letter. If they can't say "yes" to that, it's not a letter you want to have.

VERY well said and excellent advice. Thank you!

 

[shan564]

An otherwise remarkably useless (although very bright, and fun at parties) attending at my med school used to say "never ask someone if they will write you a LOR. Ask them if they will write you an excellent LOR. If they say "no" thank them for their time and move on."

Moral of the story is that you need to be proactive. Med school faculty get asked to write dozens of letters each year. Believe me when I say they would be more than happy to not write ones that they think will be a waste of paper. Take responsibility for yourself and ask if they'll write you a strong/excellent letter. If they can't say "yes" to that, it's not a letter you want to have.

FWIW, somebody did say "yes" to that question for me, and then never got around to writing the letter...