Who's DO/Phd?

[snowkhat]

Hey this is a thread for anyone applying DO/PhD. I am currently applying DO/PhD to only one school, TCOM-UNT. I would like to continue in Neuroscience or possibly Public Health.

If you want, list the schools you're applying to and your focus. If you want you can also add if you have interviewed or been accepted. Oh, yeah list any program attributes like how long the dual program takes and whether or not you get funding.

UNT-TCOM--6-7 years total; MSTP program provides tuition funding & stipend.

Best of luck (or why are we doing this to ourselves?)

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[Kuba]

I never fully understood the benefit of a md/phd or do/phd. Why not just get through school and then do a research fellowship. It saves a lot of time. I know that you get those 7 years for free, but in the long run isnt it all the same if you factor in 3 years worth of salary as a practicing DO?

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

no, you don't get the 7 years free in a DO/PhD program because they aren't NIH funded like the MSTP.

If you do get it free or at a discount, its because its coming out of the schools hide.

 

[Kuba]

hmm, then i really dont get it

 

[Hardbody]

hmm, then i really dont get it

That makes two of us. You had me going for a minute, thinking that DO/PhD & MD/PhD students got a free ride. Hell, I think many of us would consider going that route if it were free.

 

[Kuba]

That makes two of us. You had me going for a minute, thinking that DO/PhD & MD/PhD students got a free ride. Hell, I think many of us would consider going that route if it were free.

Most MD/PhD programs are free. They even pay for your interview expenses sometimes. They are ridiculously competitive though (again - i dont know why)

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

The MD/PhD students DO get a free ride if they are i the MSTP program.


The MSTP program is NIH funded.

 

[Instatewaiter]

At my school not only do they get a free ride but they also get living expenses paid for and a stipend.

If you factor in the interest for your loans, you could be paying over $300,000 for med school. Not too shabby to come out debt free. Plus, MD/PhD will help you get a better residencies and fellowship (generally). It's too long of a road for me, but I can see the perks.

 

[Kuba]

At my school not only do they get a free ride but they also get living expenses paid for and a stipend.

If you factor in the interest for your loans, you could be paying over $300,000 for med school. Not too shabby to come out debt free. Plus, MD/PhD will help you get a better residencies and fellowship (generally). It's too long of a road for me, but I can see the perks.

that's a MSTP program, no?

 

[snowkhat]

Dr.Kuba---Actually I am applying for the MSTP program. Tuition and stipend (1300-1800 month) are paid.

I am interested in academics and clinical research so the DO/Phd is good for me. I can get into the DO/PhD, however, without being MSTP (it is competitive as stated above). I can also decide later if I don't want to go through with the PhD part. I will have a Master's so I would kind of like to continue with that track (yet, I want to be a practicing physician more).

As far as the NIH thing goes, it is requirement to get grant funding during your research period.

Hope this cleared up things.

 

[mshheaddoc]

What's the difference between a DO/PhD and a research fellowship?

 

[Kuba]

What's the difference between a DO/PhD and a research fellowship?

you actually receive a PhD with the DO/PhD(I know its stupid for me to say that). I dont know what other doors that opens for you, but from my understanding you only need the fellowship to do research, not the PhD. I am planning on doing a research fellowship in order to be able to do research though since I don't have the patience for the DO/PhD. Snowkhat, which school has a MSTP program?

 

[dr.z]

What's the difference between a DO/PhD and a research fellowship?

Research fellowships are usually done after residency. Length depends on the speciality, but the first year is mostly clinical work. Then you get protected research time in the subsequent years.

 

[Kuba]

Research fellowships are usually done after residency. Length depends on the speciality, but the first year is mostly clinical work. Then you get protected research time in the subsequent years.

Is my understanding correct that that's different from the NSU fellowship you can do before your 3rd year?

 

[mshheaddoc]

I realize they are after residency, but they still get you the PhD? I'm assuming its more clinical rather than basic science?

What are other differences? I'm curious because I've thrown around the PhD route but I'm more interested in clinical application then basic applications.

 

[Kuba]

I realize they are after residency, but they still get you the PhD? I'm assuming its more clinical rather than basic science?

What are other differences? I'm curious because I've thrown around the PhD route but I'm more interested in clinical application then basic applications.

no, you dont get a phd, and yes I believe it is more clinical. I had a convo with my PI about this and he basically said if you want to do clinical research then it is in your best interest not to do phd, but rather fellowship.

 

[dr.z]

no, you dont get a phd, and yes I believe it is more clinical. I had a convo with my PI about this and he basically said if you want to do clinical research then it is in your best interest not to do phd, but rather fellowship.

Depending on the lab that you choose, you could do basic science too. You also have option of doing translational work which is between clinical and basic science.

 

[mshheaddoc]

So then this is a medical route for doing research, but without the offical Ph.D. initials. There is no other difference?

There has to be something different about this. Maybe I should direct this in the MSTP forum where they'd have more experience to answer this question directly ...

 

[snowkhat]

Actually, it appears that UNT-TCOM's program has lots of clinical research not just basic science. PhD is great for furthering an academic career and getting noticed in the research community. As a graduate student, I can tell you that a PhD garners quite a bit more research logistics expertise and connections than the standard MD/DO.

From TCOM's website:

The health science center will provide financial support to those students selected into the M.S.T.P. by the dual program admissions committee to seek the D.O./Ph.D. This includes a fellowship in an amount sufficient to pay all graduate tuition costs during Block 2 and a graduate assistantship during this time. Support may be available during other blocks, as well.

Students who are not selected to participate in the M.S.T.P. often receive funding during Block 2 from other sources, including research grants, departmental assistantships, and other departmental funds.

 

[snowkhat]

Depending on the lab that you choose, you could do basic science too. You also have option of doing translational work which is between clinical and basic science.

You got it Doc Z. It totally depends what kind of work you want to do. I am interested in Neuroscience. Particularly, clinical neuroscience and public health.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Ok, seriously, DO/PhD programs, for the last time, are NOT MSTP.

http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Training/Mechanisms/NRSA/InstPredoc/PredocInst-MSTP.htm

 

[abcdefg]

Sorry buddy, but you're wrong...this is from TCOM's website....

D.O./M.S., D.O./Ph.D. and Medical Scientist Training Programs
Go To: Application Procedures |DO/PhD Format | DO/MS Format | Costs, Financial Obligations and Assistance

UNT Health Science Center offers several dual degree programs. The Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences participates in the D.O./Ph.D. and D.O./M.S. programs with the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine (TCOM). Typically, the D.O./Ph.D. program will be 6 to 7 years in length. The D.O./M.S. program is typically 5 years in length.

Students may pursue the D.O./Ph.D. through the Medical Scientist Training Program, which guarantees funding from the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences during Block 2 of the program, as well as payment of graduate tuition and fees. Support may be available during other blocks of the program through TCOM.

Students may choose from a wide range of disciplines including cell biology and genetics, biochemistry and molecular biology, microbiology and immunology, physiology, and pharmacology and neuroscience.

Application Procedures
An applicant to the M.S.T.P. program must first apply to the Texas Medical and Dental Schools Application Service. The applicant should indicate the dual degree program in which he or she is interested on the application. If invited for interview, the applicant will participate in three interviews, rather than the standard two for applicants to the DO program. The application is then processed through a dual program admissions committee.

Individuals who become interested in pursuing the D.O./Ph.D. after gaining acceptance into either TCOM or the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences must make formal application to the school in which he/she is not already enrolled. Procedures are in place to streamline this process by sharing information already in institutional records. Applicants who decide to pursue the D.O./Ph.D. after gaining acceptance to either TCOM or the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences may not be considered for the M.S.T.P.

Applicants to the D.O./M.S. program may apply either using the dual degree admissions process described above or by applying to each school separately. D.O./M.S. applicants are not considered for the M.S.T.P.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Sorry buddy, but you're wrong...this is from TCOM's website....

D.O./M.S., D.O./Ph.D. and Medical Scientist Training Programs
Go To: Application Procedures |DO/PhD Format | DO/MS Format | Costs, Financial Obligations and Assistance

UNT Health Science Center offers several dual degree programs. The Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences participates in the D.O./Ph.D. and D.O./M.S. programs with the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine (TCOM). Typically, the D.O./Ph.D. program will be 6 to 7 years in length. The D.O./M.S. program is typically 5 years in length.

Students may pursue the D.O./Ph.D. through the Medical Scientist Training Program, which guarantees funding from the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences during Block 2 of the program, as well as payment of graduate tuition and fees. Support may be available during other blocks of the program through TCOM.

Students may choose from a wide range of disciplines including cell biology and genetics, biochemistry and molecular biology, microbiology and immunology, physiology, and pharmacology and neuroscience.

Application Procedures
An applicant to the M.S.T.P. program must first apply to the Texas Medical and Dental Schools Application Service. The applicant should indicate the dual degree program in which he or she is interested on the application. If invited for interview, the applicant will participate in three interviews, rather than the standard two for applicants to the DO program. The application is then processed through a dual program admissions committee.

Individuals who become interested in pursuing the D.O./Ph.D. after gaining acceptance into either TCOM or the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences must make formal application to the school in which he/she is not already enrolled. Procedures are in place to streamline this process by sharing information already in institutional records. Applicants who decide to pursue the D.O./Ph.D. after gaining acceptance to either TCOM or the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences may not be considered for the M.S.T.P.

Applicants to the D.O./M.S. program may apply either using the dual degree admissions process described above or by applying to each school separately. D.O./M.S. applicants are not considered for the M.S.T.P.

Dude, did you even read what you posted before you posted it?


Maybe you should do that. Than maybe you'd realize that the money is from the Graduate School of Bioscience. Additionally, the NIH MSTPs student's dont pay anything. Its a free ride. That isn't the case with TCOM's "MSTP"

So, apparently I have to repeat itself. The real MSTP program is for allopathic institutions funded by the NIH.

TCOM is just calling it MSTP.


Next time, try reading the whole page instead of just seeing what you want in an attempt to prove people wrong.

"Costs, Financial Obligations and Assistance
D.O./Ph.D. and D.O./M.S. students pay the standard medical school tuition and fees during each block that they are enrolled in TCOM. They also pay the hourly tuition rate and fees for all courses not required for the D.O. degree, i.e., the credit hours required for the graduate degree. Non-Texas residents pursuing the D.O./Ph.D. are assessed tuition at the in-state rate for both medical and graduate school.

The health science center will provide financial support to those students selected into the M.S.T.P. by the dual program admissions committee to seek the D.O./Ph.D. This includes a fellowship in an amount sufficient to pay all graduate tuition costs during Block 2 and a graduate assistantship during this time. Support may be available during other blocks, as well.

Students who are not selected to participate in the M.S.T.P. often receive funding during Block 2 from other sources, including research grants, departmental assistantships, and other departmental funds.

All dual degree program students are eligible to apply for financial aid."

 

[snowkhat]

Dude, did you even read what you posted before you posted it?


Maybe you should do that. Than maybe you'd realize that the money is from the Graduate School of Bioscience. Additionally, the NIH MSTPs student's dont pay anything. Its a free ride. That isn't the case with TCOM's "MSTP"

So, apparently I have to repeat itself. The real MSTP program is for allopathic institutions funded by the NIH.

TCOM is just calling it MSTP.


Next time, try reading the whole page instead of just seeing what you want in an attempt to prove people wrong.

"Costs, Financial Obligations and Assistance
D.O./Ph.D. and D.O./M.S. students pay the standard medical school tuition and fees during each block that they are enrolled in TCOM. They also pay the hourly tuition rate and fees for all courses not required for the D.O. degree, i.e., the credit hours required for the graduate degree. Non-Texas residents pursuing the D.O./Ph.D. are assessed tuition at the in-state rate for both medical and graduate school.

The health science center will provide financial support to those students selected into the M.S.T.P. by the dual program admissions committee to seek the D.O./Ph.D. This includes a fellowship in an amount sufficient to pay all graduate tuition costs during Block 2 and a graduate assistantship during this time. Support may be available during other blocks, as well.

Students who are not selected to participate in the M.S.T.P. often receive funding during Block 2 from other sources, including research grants, departmental assistantships, and other departmental funds.

All dual degree program students are eligible to apply for financial aid."

Why do you even care? You aren't applying for the program anyway? TCOM calls it MSTP therefore it is a MSTP program. Who gives a crap who funds it ("real" MSTP program, I guess TCOM is the "Fake" MSTP program?). Anyway, If anyone actually wants to post something useful about a DO/PhD program please feel free. Enough of this ego enflated crap.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Why do you even care? You aren't applying for the program anyway? TCOM calls it MSTP therefore it is a MSTP program. Who gives a crap who funds it ("real" MSTP program, I guess TCOM is the "Fake" MSTP program?). Anyway, If anyone actually wants to post something useful about a DO/PhD program please feel free. Enough of this ego enflated crap.

Yeah dude. Ego inflated crap.


Im not an MSTP nor did I apply to be in one. Im just a regular DO student. Im not sure how ego is involved.


If someone wants to post facts that are helpful fine. But dont post bull**** half-ass stories.



Im curious as to why you dont find the difference between zero payment for NIH MSTPs versus some block 2 stipend for TCOMs *MSTPs* peculiar.



Yes, TCOM is the fake MSTP. Do you even know anything about MSTP or are you just babbling? Since you are babbling, I refer you to the following link:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-39685.html



Oh, I see why your feelings are hurt. This is your program.

 

[Kuba]

wow, this turned a lil ugly among some respected SDNers... I think there is just a lil bit of miscommunication going on. When you say MSTP, it usually refers to the national NIH-funded program. The TCOM MSTP is just a regular DO/PhD that jsut happens to call itself MSTP. It doesn't make it any worse, it's just not a MSTP.

 

[It'sElectric]

wow, this turned a lil ugly among some respected SDNers... I think there is just a lil bit of miscommunication going on. When you say MSTP, it usually refers to the national NIH-funded program. The TCOM MSTP is just a regular DO/PhD that jsut happens to call itself MSTP. It doesn't make it any worse, it's just not a MSTP.

I gotta completely agree with Buckeye here. I think everyone is missing the BIG picture. It's not about whether the TCOM program is a legitimate MSTP program or not. It is the FACT that they can only guarantee you money for Block 2 (whatever that is). The rest of your program has no guaranteed money.

Thus, it's nothing close to an MSTP program, which does guarantee a free ride each and every year.

I think this is a huge, huge difference, and Buckeye has a right and responsibility to point it out.

 

[dr.z]

wow, this turned a lil ugly among some respected SDNers... I think there is just a lil bit of miscommunication going on. When you say MSTP, it usually refers to the national NIH-funded program. The TCOM MSTP is just a regular DO/PhD that jsut happens to call itself MSTP. It doesn't make it any worse, it's just not a MSTP.

Yeah, when one says MSTP program people generally think of NIH funded programs.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Ok, seriously, DO/PhD programs, for the last time, are NOT MSTP.

http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Training/Mechanisms/NRSA/InstPredoc/PredocInst-MSTP.htm

I see your point but why is it NIH is the only one that "COINED" the world MSTP? I don't really see that as fair. I see your point about funding but I think you all need to just relax a little bit as some still see it as a training program. But remember your audience, pre-meds and med students. They may not use the term MSTP in the same fashion as those in the "industry". ANd I think that is why some users on this thread are trying to explain to them how to use the term in the "politically correct sense of NIH".

As for TCOM's use of MSTP when its not a true "NIH" program, that's for the NIH to decide. As I said, its just a turn of a phrase not their copyrighted word. So arguing over who is right really isn't going to matter in most cases.


I also posted a thread in MSTP forum about differences between med/PhD and fellowships if anyone is interested.

 

[snowkhat]

So this forum was supposed to be about DO/PhD programs. Apparently it has gotten way out of control and turned into a pissing contest.

I will put my last two cents of this discussion. Firstly, I think it is unfair and considerably disrespectful to disparage anyone's program on SDN. Criticism is welcome if well meant.

Secondly, I don't believe that TCOM's MSTP has any less merit than NIH MSTP listed programs. In the grand scheme of things Medical Scientists=Medical Scientists. NIH funding probably corresponds to the amount of research a school produces and/or how much NIH grant funds the school currently receives. Therefore, the bigger schools like UTSW, Stanford, etc.will certainly have more money to dole out to their MSTP students. For instance, the UTSW program funds their students via NIH and Perot Foundation (as in Ross Perot). TCOM is a bit newer but is doing its best to provide funding to their graduate students. From what I was told at the interview, they do their best to ensure their graduate students receive as much money as possible.

Thirdly and finally, it was never intended for this forum to be a heated discussion. More simply, it was my intention to have current DO/PhD applicants discuss their programs and future goals.

Best of luck to those who are applying and have great insight into the future of medical research.


2006 UNT NIH grants.

UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 1K23AT003304-01A1 7144495 Pim, Kendi Hensel Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine in Pregnancy: Physiologic and Clinical Effects MANIPULATIVE MEDICINE PHYSICAL MEDICINE & REHAB SCHOOLS OF OSTEOPATHY $127,267 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 1R01AA015982-01A1 7147620 Jung, Marianna Effects of Age on Ethanol Withdrawal Toxicity: Mechanisms and Therapy PHARMACOLOGY & NEUROSCIENCE PHARMACOLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $278,100 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 1R01AG027353-01A1 7145264 Forster, Michael J Brain aging and antioxidant supplementation PHARMACOLOGY & NEUROSCIENCE PHARMACOLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $285,935 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 1R21AG026672-01A1 7103918 Singh, Meharvan Membrane Androgen Receptors in Neuroprotection PHARMACOLOGY & NEUROSCIENCE PHARMACOLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $181,050 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 1R21AT002303-01A2 7030525 Stoll, Scott T Treatment Efficacy of OMT for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome MANIPULATIVE MEDICINE PHYSICAL MEDICINE & REHAB SCHOOLS OF OSTEOPATHY $177,500 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 1R25GM078398-01 7136604 Vishwanatha, Jamboor K PREPARE: Post-Baccalaureate Research Education Program and Retention Enhancement INSTITUTE FOR CANCER RESEARCH OTHER BASIC SCIENCES GRADUATE SCHOOLS $269,890 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
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UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 1S10RR022570-01 7046976 Koulen, Peter Confocal Microscope for Campus Expansion in the CBH building PHARMACOLOGY & NEUROSCIENCE PHARMACOLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $356,051 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 2R01AI042075-06A1 7037332 Simecka, Jerry W T cell subsets in murine mycoplasma respiratory disease MOLECULAR BIOLOGY AND IMMUNOLOGY MICROBIOLOGY/IMMUN/VIROLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $213,000 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
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UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 3P01AG022550-04S1 7286180 Simpkins, James W Mechanisms of Cognitive Decline During Aging PHARMACOLOGY & NEUROSCIENCE PHARMACOLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $48,381 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 3R01HL069431-03S1 7207836 Simecka, Jerry W Dendritic cells & immunity in mycoplasma pneumonia MOLECULAR BIOLOGY AND IMMUNOLOGY MICROBIOLOGY/IMMUN/VIROLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $42,202 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 5K22AI064592-02 7078547 Berg, Rance E Role of CD8+ T Cells in Innate Immune Responses MOLECULAR BIOLOGY AND IMMUNOLOGY MICROBIOLOGY/IMMUN/VIROLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $108,000 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 5K24AT002422-02 7115405 Licciardone, John C Midcareer Investigator Award in CAM-Osteopathic Medicine FAMILY MEDICINE FAMILY MEDICINE SCHOOLS OF OSTEOPATHY $152,359 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 5P01AG010485-15 7020637 Simpkins, James W Discovery of Novel Drugs for Alzheimer's Disease PHARMACOLOGY & NEUROSCIENCE PHARMACOLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $1,234,178 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 5P01AG022550-04 7118151 Simpkins, James W Mechanisms of Cognitive Decline During Aging PHARMACOLOGY & NEUROSCIENCE PHARMACOLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $1,571,520 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 5P20MD001633-02 7126059 Vishwanatha, Jamboor K Texas Center for Minority Health, Education, Research a* INSTITUTE FOR CANCER RESEARCH OTHER BASIC SCIENCES GRADUATE SCHOOLS $1,406,043 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
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UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 5R01HL067152-05 6970898 Grant, Stephen R Cytoplasmic Cam KIIRegulates Cardiomyocyte Transcription INTEGRATIVE PHYSIOLOGY PHYSIOLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $277,326 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS HLTH SCI CTR 5R01HL069431-03 7007280 Simecka, Jerry W Dendritic cells & immunity in mycoplasma pneumonia MOLECULAR BIOLOGY AND IMMUNOLOGY MICROBIOLOGY/IMMUN/VIROLOGY GRADUATE SCHOOLS $277,326 FORT WORTH TEXAS 76107-2699 Domestic Higher Education
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[jkhamlin]

FYI: NIH MSTP actively discriminates against DO/PhD programs. I called them a couple of years ago to ask them why they didn't have any DO/PhD programs and the answer I got was that serious premedical students only apply to MD programs whereas those that apply to DO programs will not be good doctors.

Here is the letter of complaint I emailed that guy's boss:

Dr. Berg:​

I am a biology student interested in medical scientist training programs and I linked to your program's website through my university's website. I am interested only in Osteopathic Medicine as the professional side of the dual degree. I noticed that your programs are strangely and unfortunately lacking in DO/PhD programs. I thought that maybe this was because these were relatively new programs, so I called to find out. I talked to Dr. Bert Shapiro, and found that through talking about it with him it is because he, and perhaps others in your organization, are willfully ignorant towards Osteopathic Medicine due to antiquated negative attitudes. Dr. Shapiro stated some vague things that qualify a MSTP for funding, and he stated that none have applied and none to his knowledge are eligible. His criteria and the criteria on your website are very broad and vague. I believe that at least two (specifically Michigan State University and Oklahoma State University) meet these vague criteria. Whether or not they have or will apply is up in the air; however, I intend to matriculate at Oklahoma State University and I will do everything I can to make sure they do apply. I do feel that however qualified an Osteopathic medical school is, people with obsolete attitudes like Dr. Shapiro's will bend over backwards not to help them.

This is in the great disinterest of the public who funds your programs, and in the disinterest of qualified students who want to pursue a career as a medical scientist. Therefore I wish to file complaint against your organization for general academic discrimination and failure to properly use public funds and would hope that you would give this matter your
full attention.​

Here is the reply I got from him:

Mr. Hamlin: Please feel free to encourage individuals from the programs that you are interested in applying to or attending to contact me regarding the possibility of applying for support for a medical scientist training program.

Sincerely yours,

Jeremy M. Berg
Director
National Institute of General Medical Sciences
45 Center Drive, 2AN.12G
Bethesda, MD 20892
[email protected]
(301)594-2172
www.nigms.nih.gov​

I don't blame TCOM for starting their own program since obviously in the current political climate they cannot get funding from NIH. I think we should all support them and others who take this kind of initiative instead of tearing them down with semantic games.

You are either part of the solution or you are part of the precipitate. 😀

 

[snowkhat]

Wow. That's really cool that you called them out. Your right it's an old boys club of sorts and it's purely political. But some of the best doctors I know are DO's and conduct research at UTSW and Stanford.

 

[It'sElectric]

So this forum was supposed to be about DO/PhD programs. Apparently it has gotten way out of control and turned into a pissing contest.

I will put my last two cents of this discussion. Firstly, I think it is unfair and considerably disrespectful to disparage anyone's program on SDN. Criticism is welcome if well meant.

Secondly, I don't believe that TCOM's MSTP has any less merit than NIH MSTP listed programs. In the grand scheme of things Medical Scientists=Medical Scientists. NIH funding probably corresponds to the amount of research a school produces and/or how much NIH grant funds the school currently receives. Therefore, the bigger schools like UTSW, Stanford, etc.will certainly have more money to dole out to their MSTP students. For instance, the UTSW program funds their students via NIH and Perot Foundation (as in Ross Perot). TCOM is a bit newer but is doing its best to provide funding to their graduate students. From what I was told at the interview, they do their best to ensure their graduate students receive as much money as possible.

Thirdly and finally, it was never intended for this forum to be a heated discussion. More simply, it was my intention to have current DO/PhD applicants discuss their programs and future goals.

Best of luck to those who are applying and have great insight into the future of medical research.

I think you're being just a little bit overly sensitive. I was simply commenting in regards to the funding. I think pre-meds should know that the program will likely NOT be fully funded. I believe that if you're going to dedicate yourself to something like a DO/PhD for several years, then you should truly understand what you're getting into. The wording that came from the TCOM website really seemed to "beat around the bush" in regards to how the program was funded.

That's all I'm saying. No disparaging remarks.

 

[drusso]

NIH-funded MSTP programs are competitively awarded grants to an institution by the NIH. The institution then turns around and funds the students.

To my knowledge, no osteopathic school has ever applied for federal funding of its MSTP program. I could be wrong. (BTW: MSTP is just a generic term indicating a specific training model/philosophy of medical education). You can call your program an MSTP program even if it is not federally funded if the goals and rationale for training are the same---producing biomedically-oriented physician-scientists.

I know that several of the more established osteopathic schools have been moving toward a federally funded MSTP program. I also know that some osteopathic schools have considered forming research consortiums in order to improve their competitiveness in the MSTP process. I can tell you can that TCOM's MSTP program is very good and very well-respected despite not being federally funded. Several graduates have gone onto top residencies, research fellowships, and institutions.

 

[snowkhat]

Dr. Russo....yeah that makes perfect sense.

Yes, TCOM does have a great program. They are really working hard to get funding for their PhD students (MSTP or not) and are turning out leaders in medicine.

 

[snowkhat]

I think you're being just a little bit overly sensitive. I was simply commenting in regards to the funding. I think pre-meds should know that the program will likely NOT be fully funded. I believe that if you're going to dedicate yourself to something like a DO/PhD for several years, then you should truly understand what you're getting into. The wording that came from the TCOM website really seemed to "beat around the bush" in regards to how the program was funded.

That's all I'm saying. No disparaging remarks.

I'm not sure they were beating around the bush. The deal is if you are admitted to their MSTP you get full-scholarship for your graduate tuition and stipend. Your DO years you are funding either departmentally or you go at it alone. I am fully aware of these aspects as I am a graduate student now and have already interviewed with them. They make it pretty clear what financial obligations the student will have.

 

[It'sElectric]

I'm not sure they were beating around the bush. The deal is if you are admitted to their MSTP you get full-scholarship for your graduate tuition and stipend. Your DO years you are funding either departmentally or you go at it alone. I am fully aware of these aspects as I am a graduate student now and have already interviewed with them. They make it pretty clear what financial obligations the student will have.

I'm very confident that they have made it clear to you in person or via email/phone, but the website is not as definitive and clear. That's all I was saying.

 

[Kuba]

Reading back over the thread I realized it sounded a lil MD vs DOish..just wanted to point out that this isnt a DO/PhD versus MD/PhD thing. Many allopathic MD/PhD are not NIH-funded either, Dartmouth comes to mind first. Some of us here were just making sure the semantics were correct, since MSTP is usually thought to imply NIH-funding🙂

 

[dr.z]

Reading back over the thread I realized it sounded a lil MD vs DOish..just wanted to point out that this isnt a DO/PhD versus MD/PhD thing. Many allopathic MD/PhD are not NIH-funded either, Dartmouth comes to mind first. Some of us here were just making sure the semantics were correct, since MSTP is usually thought to imply NIH-funding🙂

I agree. Most MD/PhD programs are not NIH funded. There are fewer number of schools that have NIH supported MD/PhD programs.

 

[snowkhat]

So is anyone here applying DO/PhD? If so, what area of concentration?

 

[jkhamlin]

Reading back over the thread I realized it sounded a lil MD vs DOish..just wanted to point out that this isnt a DO/PhD versus MD/PhD thing. Many allopathic MD/PhD are not NIH-funded either, Dartmouth comes to mind first. Some of us here were just making sure the semantics were correct, since MSTP is usually thought to imply NIH-funding🙂

Just keep in mind that the problem is that to the NIH, this subject is MD vs DOish. They seem to be the last bastion of discrimination against Osteopathic medicine holding on to an archaic position.

 

[jkhamlin]

So is anyone here applying DO/PhD? If so, what area of concentration?

I am applying DO/PhD to TCOM and OSU-COM (unfortunately the other two schools I am applying to do not have the DO/PhD route). I am hoping to continue in epidemiology since that is my master's degree focus, although biochem interests me as well.

 

[Kuba]

Just keep in mind that the problem is that to the NIH, this subject is MD vs DOish. They seem to be the last bastion of discrimination against Osteopathic medicine holding on to an archaic position.

i dont think this is a bias issue as much as DO/PhD programs not meeting the stringent criteria yet since DO schools have not been research-minded historically. I bet we see one of the more research oriented DO schools get NIH funded MSTP within the next coule of decades.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I am applying DO/PhD to TCOM and OSU-COM (unfortunately the other two schools I am applying to do not have the DO/PhD route). I am hoping to continue in epidemiology since that is my master's degree focus, although biochem interests me as well.

Does OSU-COM have a curriculum in epidemiology? I wasn't aware that they did.

 

[jkhamlin]

Does OSU-COM have a curriculum in epidemiology? I wasn't aware that they did.

I don't think they do, but it may be doable as a sub discipline of microbiology.

 

[jkhamlin]

i dont think this is a bias issue as much as DO/PhD programs not meeting the stringent criteria yet since DO schools have not been research-minded historically. I bet we see one of the more research oriented DO schools get NIH funded MSTP within the next coule of decades.

You don't think this is a bias issue despite the clearly biased response I got from Dr. Shapiro who was in charge of the program criteria (at least at the time I contacted them, I don't know if he still is)?

 

[mshheaddoc]

I don't think they do, but it may be doable as a sub discipline of microbiology.

I wonder how though as they don't have any classes specifically in that field and to my knowledge minimal faculty support in that area? That would be interesting though if you were able to work it out. I am hoping they work on expanding their health sciences programs ... (MPH concentration would be nice!!!)

 

[jkhamlin]

I wonder how though as they don't have any classes specifically in that field and to my knowledge minimal faculty support in that area? That would be interesting though if you were able to work it out. I am hoping they work on expanding their health sciences programs ... (MPH concentration would be nice!!!)

My current master's program doesn't have epidemiology as a focus, either. I found a micro professor who was willing to think outside the box and be creative enough to help me put a curriculum together with what is available to accomplish a basic science master's degree in biology with an epidemiology focus. I am the first one to do this at Missouri State University. For a PhD, what will be most important is the research, anyway, so if I put together a project that has a disease surveillance or biostatistics focus, that should be sufficient.

 

[mshheaddoc]

My current master's program doesn't have epidemiology as a focus, either. I found a micro professor who was willing to think outside the box and be creative enough to help me put a curriculum together with what is available to accomplish a basic science master's degree in biology with an epidemiology focus. I am the first one to do this at Missouri State University. For a PhD, what will be most important is the research, anyway, so if I put together a project that has a disease surveillance or biostatistics focus, that should be sufficient.

Oh cool! Good luck with that!!

 

[snowkhat]

JKH--Yeah, just get in touch with one of the Micro or Cellular faculty. You might be able to find a mentor in that field (they have some excellent, highly regarded researchers). Best of luck!

So, I had my third and final PhD/DO interview at TCOM today (the first two were in July). I spoke with a professor-department head/chair from the Neuroscience/Pharmacology department. Anyway, it was very reassuring and they have brand new labs. The program is about 3 years in addition to your 4 years in medical school. The three years are right smack dab in the middle (after year 2). I could find out as early as October 15th or as late as February 15th (yuck!).