Why are average stats increasing?

[Thego2guy]

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Hey guys,

What are the factors that are contributing to rising average MCATs and GPA's? The GPA thing has been going on all around the country for some time now..there is inflation everywhere, increasing amount of applicants (will it ever taper off?), etc.. but what about the MCAT? Are people just getting smarter, or is the test getting easier? What factors am I missing?

Thanks 🙂

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

SDN is creating more gunners.

 

[notbobtrustme]

more people taking the test means more potential for people to do better. there's only a finite number of seats, so people who score better push the median/mean up.

 

[Thego2guy]

SDN is creating more gunners.

LOL! Yeah. I think so too.

I am asking because I met a few physicians who made the claim that the MCAT is not what it used to be - hence the increasing average scores. Seems kind of arbitrary to me.. but idk.

 

[tenndoc]

Increasing # of ppl applying. Comes from the increased # of undergrads and ppl deciding to go back to school since their careers aren't working out

 

[sliceofbread136]

LOL! Yeah. I think so too.

I am asking because I met a few physicians who made the claim that the MCAT is not what it used to be - hence the increasing average scores. Seems kind of arbitrary to me.. but idk.

Doesn't the percentile based scoring make the actual difficultly of the test obsolete?

 

[Knocked Up]

Obama has destroyed Wall street. Business is very hard to break into these days.

Law is going under. While I'm not totally knowledgable of the current predicament, many will tell you that if you are not in the top 1/2 of a T14 school you are going to have it tough in years to come.

LSATs are down 20%.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, until Obama ruins healthcare (more politically correct: until he COMPLETELY ruins it, as it is not in the best of states right now), MD is a solid degree to have.

So more people switch to pursue medicine. More intelligent people take the MCAT more and more times (CBT makes it easier) and MCAT averages go up. The MCAT is ALL that matters in medical school admissions so it get harder to get into medical school.

At the end of the day, it's largely Obama's fault. Well and AAMc for making the MCAT in the first place (though it was much easier back in the day and just route memorization). Well and adcoms too for thinking they are high and noble and that they get to put everyone in MCAT categories because they are in positions of power. Well, kind of our faults too for letting it get to this point.

 

[Aerus]

Each generation is becoming more intelligent than the last. Better nutrition, better childhood environments, more resources for children to succeed, and more pressure TO succeed.

 

[macfan101]

Competition is increasing. Before people had lives and as such, scores were averagely low. Now, we got some kids studying day and night for years which will result in higher averages. As we know from stats, it only takes a few outliers to throw off the averages. You should look at the median scores as those are relatively still the same.


P.S. I ain't no Einstein, just a mathematician~

 

[arfc6]

Obama has destroyed Wall street. Business is very hard to break into these days.

Law is going under. While I'm not totally knowledgable of the current predicament, many will tell you that if you are not in the top 1/2 of a T14 school you are going to have it tough in years to come.

LSATs are down 20%.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, until Obama ruins healthcare (more politically correct: until he COMPLETELY ruins it, as it is not in the best of states right now), MD is a solid degree to have.

So more people switch to pursue medicine. More intelligent people take the MCAT more and more times (CBT makes it easier) and MCAT averages go up. The MCAT is ALL that matters in medical school admissions so it get harder to get into medical school.

At the end of the day, it's largely Obama's fault. Well and AAMc for making the MCAT in the first place (though it was much easier back in the day and just route memorization). Well and adcoms too for thinking they are high and noble and that they get to put everyone in MCAT categories because they are in positions of power. Well, kind of our faults too for letting it get to this point.

Also Obama gave my Grandma arthritis. Truth bomb.

 

[CopaceticOne]

Obama has destroyed Wall street. Business is very hard to break into these days.

Law is going under. While I'm not totally knowledgable of the current predicament, many will tell you that if you are not in the top 1/2 of a T14 school you are going to have it tough in years to come.

LSATs are down 20%.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, until Obama ruins healthcare (more politically correct: until he COMPLETELY ruins it, as it is not in the best of states right now), MD is a solid degree to have.

So more people switch to pursue medicine. More intelligent people take the MCAT more and more times (CBT makes it easier) and MCAT averages go up. The MCAT is ALL that matters in medical school admissions so it get harder to get into medical school.

At the end of the day, it's largely Obama's fault. Well and AAMc for making the MCAT in the first place (though it was much easier back in the day and just route memorization). Well and adcoms too for thinking they are high and noble and that they get to put everyone in MCAT categories because they are in positions of power. Well, kind of our faults too for letting it get to this point.

You're one of my favorite trolls Every time I'm about to add you to an ignore list, you post another moment of brilliance that makes me chuckle.

 

[circulus vitios]

Competition is increasing. Before people had lives and as such, scores were averagely low. Now, we got some kids studying day and night for years which will result in higher averages. As we know from stats, it only takes a few outliers to throw off the averages. You should look at the median scores as those are relatively still the same.


P.S. I ain't no Einstein, just a mathematician~

I think median scores are always higher?

Matriculant GPA data for Temple:

Average cGPA: 3.67
Average sGPA: 3.62
Median cGPA: 3.72
Median sGPA: 3.67

(Source: Temple's website & MSAR.)

 

[tenndoc]

i was wondering how long it would take to blame obama...

 

[sector9]

It's cyclical. It will go down eventually

 

[GeorgiadisMD]

Obama has destroyed Wall street. Business is very hard to break into these days.

Law is going under. While I'm not totally knowledgable of the current predicament, many will tell you that if you are not in the top 1/2 of a T14 school you are going to have it tough in years to come.

LSATs are down 20%.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, until Obama ruins healthcare (more politically correct: until he COMPLETELY ruins it, as it is not in the best of states right now), MD is a solid degree to have.

So more people switch to pursue medicine. More intelligent people take the MCAT more and more times (CBT makes it easier) and MCAT averages go up. The MCAT is ALL that matters in medical school admissions so it get harder to get into medical school.

At the end of the day, it's largely Obama's fault. Well and AAMc for making the MCAT in the first place (though it was much easier back in the day and just route memorization). Well and adcoms too for thinking they are high and noble and that they get to put everyone in MCAT categories because they are in positions of power. Well, kind of our faults too for letting it get to this point.

My dog died because of Obama

 

[235788]

more people taking the test means more potential for people to do better. there's only a finite number of seats, so people who score better push the median/mean up.

exactly.

Increasing # of ppl applying. Comes from the increased # of undergrads and ppl deciding to go back to school since their careers aren't working out

agree.

Obama has destroyed Wall street. Business is very hard to break into these days.

Law is going under. While I'm not totally knowledgable of the current predicament, many will tell you that if you are not in the top 1/2 of a T14 school you are going to have it tough in years to come.

LSATs are down 20%.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, until Obama ruins healthcare (more politically correct: until he COMPLETELY ruins it, as it is not in the best of states right now), MD is a solid degree to have.

So more people switch to pursue medicine. More intelligent people take the MCAT more and more times (CBT makes it easier) and MCAT averages go up. The MCAT is ALL that matters in medical school admissions so it get harder to get into medical school.

At the end of the day, it's largely Obama's fault. Well and AAMc for making the MCAT in the first place (though it was much easier back in the day and just route memorization). Well and adcoms too for thinking they are high and noble and that they get to put everyone in MCAT categories because they are in positions of power. Well, kind of our faults too for letting it get to this point.

yeah law is f'ed.

Each generation is becoming more intelligent than the last. Better nutrition, better childhood environments, more resources for children to succeed, and more pressure TO succeed.

I blame the internets and how physician salaries are out of the bag (now more than ever). Any high school kid now knows exactly what specialist make ($300k+). Hence why it seems that every freshman pre-med wants to be aneth, ortho, or cardiothoraric surgeon. You'll never hear one say he's into family medicine.


Couldn't just google salaries 10-20 years ago.

 

[Thego2guy]

i was wondering how long it would take to blame obama...

Lol. 🙄

Each generation is becoming more intelligent than the last. Better nutrition, better childhood environments, more resources for children to succeed, and more pressure TO succeed.

Well, I don't think we are smarter than the people 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. The argument that my professors/docs make is that education standards have steadily been decreasing over the years (no child left behind, political correctness, no one should be a janitor and everyone should be a rocket scientist, screw vocational schools, etc...), so correspondingly, the material has been getting ever so slightly easier in subtle ways. HENCE, the percentiles have remained the same, because proportionally everything is the same.

I agree with how the standards have decreased - because even I have lived through enough of school to witness it from experience. I don't buy the rest of the argument though, hence I turned to you bright fellas. What do you guys think? Education standards have clearly went down... (not so much in colleges though)

 

[Aerus]

exactly.



agree.



yeah law is f'ed.



I blame the internets and how physician salaries are out of the bag (now more than ever). Any high school kid now knows exactly what specialist make ($300k+). Hence why it seems that every freshman pre-med wants to be aneth, ortho, or cardiothoraric surgeon. You'll never hear one say he's into family medicine.


Couldn't just google salaries 10-20 years ago.

I'm interested in going into Family Medicine/Pediatrics, actually. I couldn't picture myself as a surgeon, at least for now. Not enough patient interaction.

While you do make a point about kiddies being artificially driven by money, the kids with each generation ARE becoming smarter. Intelligence is both genetically and environmentally based. Because genetics are hard to actually change once the child is conceived, there is only the environment.

We have a lot stricter laws, making the household a more supportive, enriching environment to grow up in, no matter what neighborhood you live in. We have a lot more educational opportunities than decades ago and better nutrition/health for the kids. There's also a social/cultural pressure to perform well.

Notice how more and more kids are taking college level classes (AP's and IB's). My friend knows a junior taking multivariable calc and another knows a freshman taking linear algebra. This type of frequent "prodigy-ness" wouldn't be possible without the improved nutrition/household environment/learning opportunities today provides that wasn't available or as high quality as today.

Each generation, the average standard for the IQ test (100 being the average) is being pushed up. A 100 on the IQ test 30-40 years years ago is an 80 on today's IQ test. I'm not trying to say that people long ago are stupid, but rather, the environment is better and more supportive of intellectual growth. I would say I'm much smarter and think more critically than either of my parents because of the opportunities that I have that they didn't have, not because they weren't as driven as I am. I'm pretty sure they worked 10x harder than I do today.

 

[235788]

Lol. 🙄



Well, I don't think we are smarter than the people 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. The argument that my professors/docs make is that education standards have steadily been decreasing over the years (no child left behind, political correctness, no one should be a janitor and everyone should be a rocket scientist, screw vocational schools, etc...), so correspondingly, the material has been getting ever so slightly easier in subtle ways. HENCE, the percentiles have remained the same, because proportionally everything is the same.

I agree with how the standards have decreased - because even I have lived through enough of school to witness it from experience. I don't buy the rest of the argument though, hence I turned to you bright fellas. What do you guys think? Education standards have clearly went down... (not so much in colleges though)

yeah everyone goes to college these days.... The brightest and most talented still get the (good) jobs, and the people who snuck by with a 2.0-3.0 at a state school work at places like home depot and blame the economy.

education standards have really declined and inflated GPA. Another reason I agree the MCAT should get buff'ed and made much harder.

 

[circulus vitios]

yeah everyone goes to college these days.... The brightest and most talented still get the (good) jobs, and the people who snuck by with a 2.0-3.0 at a state school work at places like home depot and blame the economy.

education standards have really declined and inflated GPA. Another reason I agree the MCAT should get buff'ed and made much harder.

Why? It's not like it's currently producing low quality medical students.

 

[Thego2guy]

I'm interested in going into Family Medicine/Pediatrics, actually. I couldn't picture myself as a surgeon, at least for now. Not enough patient interaction.

While you do make a point about kiddies being artificially driven by money, the kids with each generation ARE becoming smarter. Intelligence is both genetically and environmentally based. Because genetics are hard to actually change once the child is conceived, there is only the environment.

We have a lot stricter laws, making the household a more supportive, enriching environment to grow up in, no matter what neighborhood you live in. We have a lot more educational opportunities than decades ago and better nutrition/health for the kids. There's also a social/cultural pressure to perform well.

Notice how more and more kids are taking college level classes (AP's and IB's). My friend knows a junior taking multivariable calc and another knows a freshman taking linear algebra. This type of frequent "prodigy-ness" wouldn't be possible without the improved nutrition/household environment/learning opportunities today provides that wasn't available or as high quality as today.

Each generation, the average standard for the IQ test (100 being the average) is being pushed up. A 100 on the IQ test 30-40 years years ago is an 80 on today's IQ test. I'm not trying to say that people long ago are stupid, but rather, the environment is better and more supportive of intellectual growth. I would say I'm much smarter and think more critically than either of my parents because of the opportunities that I have that they didn't have, not because they weren't as driven as I am. I'm pretty sure they worked 10x harder than I do today.

While I think you have a very interesting thought here, for whatever reason, I am not buying it. I reallllllllllly don't think our new PhD's are smarter than the ones trained 20 or 30 years ago. Or that I am smarter than my older cousins when they were at this age. Environment/Genetics takes MANY generations to have even the slightest effect (evolution 101?), so that is definitely not the factor here. Nutrition just plays a role in our general health; so if people are healthy, they have less troubles to worry about, and more people survive to successfully finish school, and move on.

I do acknowledge that we have to learn much more than our moms and dads. Obviously our Intro Bio classes probably cover 90% more material than they covered in the 70's. Which makes me wonder.. wtf did they learn the entire semester? 🙄 ... oh wait... did I say the 70's? I wonder what they were all doing..

I agree with Franz, and I am leaning in toward the argument that my professors brought up, albeit, I am also reluctant about it. It would be really cool to get some insight from a resident or an older physician, without all of the "we had it way tougher than you" biased bullcrap.

 

[Aerus]

While I think you have a very interesting thought here, for whatever reason, I am not buying it. I reallllllllllly don't think our new PhD's are smarter than the ones trained 20 or 30 years ago. Or that I am smarter than my older cousins when they were at this age. Environment/Genetics takes MANY generations to have even the slightest effect (evolution 101?), so that is definitely not the factor here. Nutrition just plays a role in our general health; so if people are healthy, they have less troubles to worry about, and more people survive to successfully finish school, and move on.

I do acknowledge that we have to learn much more than our moms and dads. Obviously our Intro Bio classes probably cover 90% more material than they covered in the 70's. Which makes me wonder.. wtf did they learn the entire semester? 🙄 ... oh wait... did I say the 70's? I wonder what they were all doing..

I agree with Franz, and I am leaning in toward the argument that my professors brought up, albeit, I am also reluctant about it. It would be really cool to get some insight from a resident or an older physician, without all of the "we had it way tougher than you" biased bullcrap.

No, I'm not saying genetics has any factor at the increasing scores AT ALL. As I said, I consider myself to be smarter than both my parents (not KNOWING more stuff, although that's obviously true) but to think more critically and faster than they did at their age.

I'm not saying the PhD's today are of better quality than the ones of decades ago. I'm saying that the OVERALL population is getting smarter.

Nutrition DOES play a role in one's intelligence. If you grow up in a deprived childhood or one without any nutrition, you're not going to reach your full intellectual capacity/potential. For example, why do blacks/Mexicans have much lower test scores and are on the far end of the achievement gap? I'm sure there isn't a genetic difference between your average white/asian and your average black/mexican. It's because of ENVIRONMENT.

Now, I'm just applying this concept of environment to the environment our grandparents grew up in and ones teenagers now grow up in.

 

[link2swim06]

Grade Inflation:

And the job market blows for college grads...if you can't get a job some people will take their high MCAT and apply.

 

[235788]

Why? It's not like it's currently producing low quality medical students.

IMO, There isn't enough difference between scores. I would argue that the difference between a 28-30 is a couple of lucky guesses or an easy passage. And it gets even worst the higher you go. The averages have gotten too high and are starting to hit a point where the scoring bell curve doesn't distinguish people as well.

 

[Morsetlis]

Grade inflation is grade inflation.

80% for an A.

"Homework" and "Lab" points.

 

[western1]

Also Obama gave my Grandma arthritis. Truth bomb.

Really? He did the same thing to my grandma after WWII. I thought I was the only one... now it looks to be true. What a schemer...

Too bad there aren't good lawyers out there since they're all switching to medicine or else we could really try to pursue legal jargon and such. 😎

 

[Thego2guy]

No, I'm not saying genetics has any factor at the increasing scores AT ALL. As I said, I consider myself to be smarter than both my parents (not KNOWING more stuff, although that's obviously true) but to think more critically and faster than they did at their age.

I'm not saying the PhD's today are of better quality than the ones of decades ago. I'm saying that the OVERALL population is getting smarter.

Nutrition DOES play a role in one's intelligence. If you grow up in a deprived childhood or one without any nutrition, you're not going to reach your full intellectual capacity/potential. For example, why do blacks/Mexicans have much lower test scores and are on the far end of the achievement gap? I'm sure there isn't a genetic difference between your average white/asian and your average black/mexican. It's because of ENVIRONMENT.

Now, I'm just applying this concept of environment to the environment our grandparents grew up in and ones teenagers now grow up in.

I think you are mixing up socioeconomic environmental factors, to biochemical environmental factors. I agreed with you on the nutrition part, but I noted a simple reason for why it is a factor. It doesn't make people smarter, it just makes them healthy. Healthy people can go to school, can LIVE, and can learn. As you said, they can reach their full potential. However that can hardly explain why test scores have been rising consistently over the past 10 years. If anything our nutrition has been getting WORSE over the past decade, as evidenced by the rising obesity rates. Nevertheless, obesity is not an 'acute' problem, so as long as the child is 'healthy', has normal cognitive function, and is not starving, then that shouldn't pay that much of a role. It was worth mentioning though.

I'm sure there isn't a genetic difference between your average white/asian and your average black/mexican.

Umm.. I think there are big differences generally lol... I don't know to what effect they influence the brain (if at all?), but they are definitely there. I don't think Asians are really smart because of genetics, I think it is because of their culture.

I really want to believe your argument, I really do. But this just throws me off:

As I said, I consider myself to be smarter than both my parents (not KNOWING more stuff, although that's obviously true) but to think more critically and faster than they did at their age.

I feel that way about my mom as well, but it is too subjective. How can we prove this? We always prefer to think that we are smarter than our elders but its not always true. I know that when I was 12, I thought I was the smartest kid in the world (figuratively speaking), and I frequently disagreed with the 18 year old imbeciles that I hung around with. Now, when I babysit this 12 year old girl, SHE clearly thinks I am an imbecile relative to her level, when I know that she is not any smarter than I was at the age of 12. Its a little bit hard to convey, but the point is that it is extremely subjective. I acknowledge how you feel on the matter, because I have similar feelings. Are they correct? Probably not.

 

[235788]

Grade Inflation:

And the job market blows for college grads...if you can't get a job some people will take their high MCAT and apply.

Oh wow!

No, I'm not saying genetics has any factor at the increasing scores AT ALL. As I said, I consider myself to be smarter than both my parents (not KNOWING more stuff, although that's obviously true) but to think more critically and faster than they did at their age.

I'm not saying the PhD's today are of better quality than the ones of decades ago. I'm saying that the OVERALL population is getting smarter.

Nutrition DOES play a role in one's intelligence. If you grow up in a deprived childhood or one without any nutrition, you're not going to reach your full intellectual capacity/potential. For example, why do blacks/Mexicans have much lower test scores and are on the far end of the achievement gap? I'm sure there isn't a genetic difference between your average white/asian and your average black/mexican. It's because of ENVIRONMENT.

Now, I'm just applying this concept of environment to the environment our grandparents grew up in and ones teenagers now grow up in.

For sure, along with a MAJOR cultural component. I got signed into a senior level sociology class (because I'm a boss) and one of the topics was a book about how young black kids police each-other by calling other black kids "white" (just as white males police each other by calling others gay). Caring about school is something that would definitely get you called "white" by your peers, which is very discouraging.

 

[Thego2guy]

Oh wow!



For sure, along with a MAJOR cultural component. I got signed into a senior level sociology class (because I'm a boss) and one of the topics was a book about how young black kids police each-other by calling other black kids "white" (just as white males police each other by calling others gay). Caring about school is something that would definitely get you called "white" by your peers, which is very discouraging.

Glad to see we are on the same page Franz.
This is all really good food for thought for a thesis paper ..

 

[Aerus]

I think you are mixing up socioeconomic environmental factors, to biochemical environmental factors. I agreed with you on the nutrition part, but I noted a simple reason for why it is a factor. It doesn't make people smarter, it just makes them healthy. Healthy people can go to school, can LIVE, and can learn. As you said, they can reach their full potential. However that can hardly explain why test scores have been rising consistently over the past 10 years. If anything our nutrition has been getting WORSE over the past decade, as evidenced by the rising obesity rates. Nevertheless, obesity is not an 'acute' problem, so as long as the child is 'healthy', has normal cognitive function, and is not starving, then that shouldn't pay that much of a role. It was worth mentioning though.

Biochemical environmental factors? Please explain. All I mean is the ENVIRONMENT you grow up in as a whole as an affect on your intelligence. It's how you grew up in.

And you are correct. Obesity isn't relevant to this. I'm not talking about healthy. I'm talking about being properly nourished. As long as you get your minimal amounts of food and water. If you look at a starving African boy and compare him with a healthy, fed African American in the US. Who is going to have a higher chance at success when put into a classroom?

Umm.. I think there are big differences generally lol... I don't know to what effect they influence the brain (if at all?), but they are definitely there. I don't think Asians are really smart because of genetics, I think it is because of their culture.

Two things about this that throws me off. BIG differences in the genetics between a black and an asian? Really? Do you have proof? We share over 97% of our DNA alone with Chimpanzees. There is such a minuscule, minimal difference in the DNA between a black and asian that it's ludicrous to even account DNA as a difference in achievement gap/test scores.

Second thing: Culture = environment. Why do Asians have the highest test scores/overall academic achievement in the US? Because they grew up in such a pressured, work hard in school type of environment when they were little. They were given the sufficient amount of things (including nutrition) to thrive intellectually. Now, people of different ethnicities are adapting "Asian Methods". You will see white/black/hispanic parents yelling at their kids for not getting good grades. You probably will see less of that a couple decades back.

Genetics is the only thing left to see what happens from there and we know genetics isn't the reason for increasing test scores. That leaves the environment.

I really want to believe your argument, I really do. But this just throws me off:

I feel that way about my mom as well, but it is too subjective. How can we prove this? We always prefer to think that we are smarter than our elders but its not always true. I know that when I was 12, I thought I was the smartest kid in the world (figuratively speaking), and I frequently disagreed with the 18 year old imbeciles that I hung around with. Now, when I babysit this 12 year old girl, SHE clearly thinks I am an imbecile relative to her level, when I know that she is not any smarter than I was at the age of 12. Its a little bit hard to convey, but the point is that it is extremely subjective. I acknowledge how you feel on the matter, because I have similar feelings. Are they correct? Probably not.

You're absolutely right about this. It's really hard to tell. We can only base this off of experiences. Still, at my age, I'm thinking at critical levels that they told me they have never ventured into before. If you compare how much critical thinking a kid in the 1940's does compared to a kid now, you'll probably see a difference.

Still, there isn't a need to compare how I'm thinking compared to my parents when they were my age. When you compare IQ tests, it's already sufficient to see increased achievement. (Hold the cultural factor constant)

Kids nowadays are given so much material and resources to strive. This environment fosters more learning.

 

[link2swim06]

Glad to see we are on the same page Franz.
This is all really good food for thought for a thesis paper ..

Aerus does have a point with nutrition though, but he omitted the name of the effect...its called the Flynn effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

 

[Aerus]

Aerus does have a point with nutrition though, but he omitted the name of the effect...its called the Flynn effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

YES. The Flynn effect. I studied that oh so long ago in AP Psychology. The name of it slipped my mind.

 

[Aerus]

Oh wow!



For sure, along with a MAJOR cultural component. I got signed into a senior level sociology class (because I'm a boss) and one of the topics was a book about how young black kids police each-other by calling other black kids "white" (just as white males police each other by calling others gay). Caring about school is something that would definitely get you called "white" by your peers, which is very discouraging.

Yeah, culture = environment. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Compare how many parents tell their kids to get good grades in school TODAY with 50 years ago. You'll notice a huge difference.

More and more whites/blacks/hispanics are adapting the "Asian School Method" (which isn't really Asian, but rather, is associated with being Asian). You see parents of all ethnicities yelling at their kids when they do poorly on a test. This is so much more prominent now.

What I'm trying to say is that the ENVIRONMENT the kids grow up in nowadays fosters intellectual and academic achievement. Kids have so many more resources and opportunities their parents didn't have. The fear of not living up to your parent's standards mainly exist in kids whose parents who already grew up in an educational environment and are properly educated.

 

[Thego2guy]

Biochemical environmental factors? Please explain. All I mean is the ENVIRONMENT you grow up in as a whole as an affect on your intelligence. It's how you grew up in.

Biochemical = food, medicine, hygiene, vitamins, etc... I was referring to socioeconomic discrepancies between African Americans, and Whites. Sorry I should have been more clear, its been a long day.

And you are correct. Obesity isn't relevant to this. I'm not talking about healthy. I'm talking about being properly nourished. As long as you get your minimal amounts of food and water. If you look at a starving African boy and compare him with a healthy, fed African American in the US. Who is going to have a higher chance at success when put into a classroom?

Agreed. I doubt that anyone who takes the MCAT is starving though, or starved a lot in the past. The body has incredible plasticity, and even if a 21 year old starved as a child, the fact that they made it through school, college, prereqs, and an exam, negates nutrition as a factor. People were well nourished in the 80's, so how can nutrition be a factor in increasing MCAT scores? You say that we got smarter as a society (lol, I really hope so!), then can you please pinpoint the things that we have now, which our moms and dads did not have 20 years ago? They had the nutrition. They had the educational opportunities. They had the science. They had the drive. They had the books.

Could it be that knowledge is more accessible than ever? The internet? ..



Two things about this that throws me off. BIG differences in the genetics between a black and an asian? Really? Do you have proof? We share over 97% of our DNA alone with Chimpanzees. There is such a minuscule, minimal difference in the DNA between a black and asian that it's ludicrous to even account DNA as a difference in achievement gap/test scores.

97% differences, yet, look how different we are. Everything from physical characteristics to the mental development could not be any more different. Last time I checked, Chimpanzees were not building bridges, speaking multiple languages, teaching in classrooms, or performing decompressive brain surgeries. Your reference to genetics is irrelavent here because the 97% similarity is a very superficial metric to look at. Everyday we are discovering new interactions and mechanisms in Eukaryotic genetics that help explain why even though we might have similar base-pair sequences as monkeys, we are NOT monkeys. I am sure you have heard of epigenetics.

Look at an Asian and a white person, and then tell me that our genetics are so similar, that they may not account for differences in exam performance - that exam performance is purely environmental. How can you rule genes out? The biggest scientists with the biggest balls can't rule that out. Whether they play a role in the topic at question, is a different story. Probably not. Unless the influx of Asian immigrants and the shift in Black culture changed the average numbers. dunno.

Second thing: Culture = environment. Why do Asians have the highest test scores/overall academic achievement in the US? Because they grew up in such a pressured, work hard in school type of environment when they were little. They were given the sufficient amount of things (including nutrition) to thrive intellectually.

Agreed.

Genetics is the only thing left to see what happens from there and we know genetics isn't the reason for increasing test scores. That leaves the environment.

We know genetics isn't the reason for increasing test scores? Most likely.

You're absolutely right about this. It's really hard to tell. We can only base this off of experiences. Still, at my age, I'm thinking at critical levels that they told me they have never ventured into before. If you compare how much critical thinking a kid in the 1940's does compared to a kid now, you'll probably see a difference.

I agree dude. Using 1940 is not a good reference date. Nor are the 1910's, 20's, 30's, 50's, etc.. within every decade, I can come up with a substantial socioeconomic factor that can explain why something turned out the way that it did. I think more time needs to pass to draw any more concrete conclusions.

Kids nowadays are given so much material and resources to strive. This environment fosters more learning.[/QUOTE]

👍

 

[ccrone]

Chuck Norris doesn't believe in maternal inheritance. All his mitochondria are passed to his children.
Chuck Norris doesn't need clathrins, small GTPases, tethering complexes, or SNAREs. His vesicles bud off out of fear and are powered by his sheer rage.
Chuck Norris doesn't need caspases. He delivers cell death through his roundhouse.
All of Chuck Norris' genes are homozygous dominant..

Ghosts sit around campfires and tell Chuck Norris stories.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Grade Inflation:

And the job market blows for college grads...if you can't get a job some people will take their high MCAT and apply.

GPA didn't matter until like the '80s. Back in the '50s, you could get a great job straight out of high school, afford the two cars, house with the white fence, etc etc.

 

[theseeker4]

GPA didn't matter until like the '80s. Back in the '50s, you could get a great job straight out of high school, afford the two cars, house with the white fence, etc etc.

Very true. Also in the 50's, ANY bachelors degree from ANY university provided more certainty of having a job than a Masters degree or some Doctorate degrees do today.

 

[235788]

Very true. Also in the 50's, ANY bachelors degree from ANY university provided more certainty of having a job than a Masters degree or some Doctorate degrees do today.

supply/demand.


More college grads and technology making less jobs needed = today!


Plus, doctorate degrees are just silly unless you plan on teaching, becoming a physician, or are VERY talented at research.

 

[couldabeenadoc]

Obama has destroyed Wall street. Business is very hard to break into these days.

Law is going under. While I'm not totally knowledgable of the current predicament, many will tell you that if you are not in the top 1/2 of a T14 school you are going to have it tough in years to come.

LSATs are down 20%.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, until Obama ruins healthcare (more politically correct: until he COMPLETELY ruins it, as it is not in the best of states right now), MD is a solid degree to have.

So more people switch to pursue medicine. More intelligent people take the MCAT more and more times (CBT makes it easier) and MCAT averages go up. The MCAT is ALL that matters in medical school admissions so it get harder to get into medical school.

At the end of the day, it's largely Obama's fault. Well and AAMc for making the MCAT in the first place (though it was much easier back in the day and just route memorization). Well and adcoms too for thinking they are high and noble and that they get to put everyone in MCAT categories because they are in positions of power. Well, kind of our faults too for letting it get to this point.

Aside from the Obama blaming (who can resist nowadays? 😀) the Law comments are well taken.

According to LSAC, there was a 16.2% decrease for October 2011-2012. http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/lsats-administered.asp

I don't know if it's even possible in our country, but I believe we're approaching a saturation level with law degrees. I don't ever remember seeing as many law firm television advertisements (mostly "lawsuit" medical, auto accident, slip & fall, etc.) as I have in the last 2-3 years.

 

[Crim1]

OP: Competition.

I must say I am really surprised by the intellectual arrogance in this thread. People are more intelligent now than they were decades ago? You must be joking. I think you guys are confusing intelligence with the accumulation knowledge. Just because we have more facts to memorize and some people have improved on old inventions doesn't mean we are more intelligent than our grandparents. These statements prove we never lose our thick headed ignorance.

How many of you can cook from scratch, nit your own clothing, build your own cabin, install your own electricity using a gas powered generator, split wood and start a fire without matches or put a door on its hinges? I bet most of you struggle to replace a light bulb or change a tire. My grandparents and great grandparents could do all of these things. And oh by the way, they had a profession on the side. I'm sure you can tell me a lot of facts about the eukaryotic cell you memorized from a book, but that is no different than reciting lines from a religious text.

Don't hit your enormous heads on the way out of this thread. It's you guys that give doctors such a bad reputation.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Aside from the Obama blaming (who can resist nowadays? 😀) the Law comments are well taken.

According to LSAC, there was a 16.2% decrease for October 2011-2012. http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/lsats-administered.asp

I don't know if it's even possible in our country, but I believe we're approaching a saturation level with law degrees. I don't ever remember seeing as many law firm television advertisements (mostly "lawsuit" medical, auto accident, slip & fall, etc.) as I have in the last 2-3 years.

I think we've soared past saturation levels. Something like 45,000 law grads a year for 20,000 jobs. It's pretty ridiculous.

 

[Bro Dude]

OP: Competition.

I must say I am really surprised by the intellectual arrogance in this thread. People are more intelligent now than they were decades ago? You must be joking. I think you guys are confusing intelligence with the accumulation knowledge. Just because we have more facts to memorize and some people have improved on old inventions doesn't mean we are more intelligent than our grandparents. These statements prove we never lose our thick headed ignorance.

How many of you can cook from scratch, nit your own clothing, build your own cabin, install your own electricity using a gas powered generator, split wood and start a fire without matches or put a door on its hinges? I bet most of you struggle to replace a light bulb or change a tire. My grandparents and great grandparents could do all of these things. And oh by the way, they had a profession on the side. I'm sure you can tell me a lot of facts about the eukaryotic cell you memorized from a book, but that is no different than reciting lines from a religious text.

Don't hit your enormous heads on the way out of this thread. It's you guys that give doctors such a bad reputation.

In b4 Burnett's Law

Oh yes! 😀

 

[RedSox10]

People are retaking the test a lot more. In the past it was a paper version which took months and months to be scored and was only offered once or twice per year. Now someone can easily take it at least twice in one application period if not more......More attempts = better scores.

..also more people taking it, and probably more time spent studying.

 

[Frazier]

I don't think our society is "smarter" than generations of yore... our technology is, but that's another story.

I mean without spellchecker my writing looks as if it was composed by a dyslexic forest gump...hell, my 90 year old grandma can beat me at scrabble sometimes.

Without a calculator, it takes me an embarrassing amount of time to do mental math (i.e. calculating tips... er, uh, deuh).... my mother never thinks of pulling out a smart phone to help her with dumb math.

...basic stuff.

That said, I scored over 90th percentile on the mcat, lsat and gre. So where is the discrepancy coming from?

Society's new test prep companies + new tendencies to prep months + new gunner philosophy = contribution to higher scores more than "people are getting smarter".

 

[Gamechanger]

SDN is creating more gunners.

Maybe more true than you know.

Today we have a HUGE advantage over past students studying for the MCAT.

We have the internet, professional companies, pre-tests, test engines, audio books, etc. etc.

I don't think we are any smarter per say but we are smarter where it counts. We have the ability to focus our studying in a way that probably wasnt happening 5/10 years ago.

 

[Thego2guy]

OP: Competition.

I must say I am really surprised by the intellectual arrogance in this thread. People are more intelligent now than they were decades ago? You must be joking. I think you guys are confusing intelligence with the accumulation knowledge. Just because we have more facts to memorize and some people have improved on old inventions doesn't mean we are more intelligent than our grandparents. These statements prove we never lose our thick headed ignorance.

How many of you can cook from scratch, nit your own clothing, build your own cabin, install your own electricity using a gas powered generator, split wood and start a fire without matches or put a door on its hinges? I bet most of you struggle to replace a light bulb or change a tire. My grandparents and great grandparents could do all of these things. And oh by the way, they had a profession on the side. I'm sure you can tell me a lot of facts about the eukaryotic cell you memorized from a book, but that is no different than reciting lines from a religious text.

Don't hit your enormous heads on the way out of this thread. It's you guys that give doctors such a bad reputation.

That is why his argument didn't make sense. 'I am much smarter than my mom'.. I know sometimes I feel infinitely smarter than MY mom, but I am sure she felt the same way about her mother when she was my age. His argument had no merit, and he couldn't provide any unbiased evidence.
My apologies for this thread, didn't want it to become hostile.

People are retaking the test a lot more. In the past it was a paper version which took months and months to be scored and was only offered once or twice per year. Now someone can easily take it at least twice in one application period if not more......More attempts = better scores.

..also more people taking it, and probably more time spent studying.

Thanks! I didn't think of that. More practice = better results. Very good point.

I don't think our society is "smarter" than generations of yore... our technology is, but that's another story.

I mean without spellchecker my writing looks as if it was composed by a dyslexic forest gump...hell, my 90 year old grandma can beat me at scrabble sometimes.

Without a calculator, it takes me an embarrassing amount of time to do mental math (i.e. calculating tips... er, uh, deuh).... my mother never thinks of pulling out a smart phone to help her with dumb math.

...basic stuff.

That said, I scored over 90th percentile on the mcat, lsat and gre. So where is the discrepancy coming from?

Society's new test prep companies + new tendencies to prep months + new gunner philosophy = contribution to higher scores more than "people are getting smarter".

Agree!

 

[Aerus]

We know genetics isn't the reason for increasing test scores? Most likely.

You're absolutely right about this. It's really hard to tell. We can only base this off of experiences. Still, at my age, I'm thinking at critical levels that they told me they have never ventured into before. If you compare how much critical thinking a kid in the 1940's does compared to a kid now, you'll probably see a difference.

I agree dude. Using 1940 is not a good reference date. Nor are the 1910's, 20's, 30's, 50's, etc.. within every decade, I can come up with a substantial socioeconomic factor that can explain why something turned out the way that it did. I think more time needs to pass to draw any more concrete conclusions.

Kids nowadays are given so much material and resources to strive. This environment fosters more learning.

👍[/QUOTE]

Oh, well biochemical environment/socio-economic = still my point 👍

We can't say genetics = physical appearances. Physical appearances are but a scratch on the genes. Are you saying that Asians score higher than blacks or whites because they're smarter genetically? Blacks score lower than whites because blacks are genetically inferior in terms of intelligence? I don't think that's it at all. I know incredibly bright black people. The difference is those black people grew up in such an enriching environment.

It's all about the environment. Genetics DOES contribute A LOT to intelligence; don't get me wrong. But between each race, there isn't a huge genetic difference between intelligence. It's just the environment these people grow up in may or may not be optimal for maximizing intellectual growth.

I used the 1940's BECAUSE they support my point and I'm glad you agree that they do. Socioeconomic background is STILL AN ENVIRONMENT THING. I'm saying that our kids are smarter now because they don't live in such a time, like during the Great Depression.

That is why his argument didn't make sense. 'I am much smarter than my mom'.. I know sometimes I feel infinitely smarter than MY mom, but I am sure she felt the same way about her mother when she was my age. His argument had no merit, and he couldn't provide any unbiased evidence.
My apologies for this thread, didn't want it to become hostile.

I agree that that probably wasn't the best statement, since there isn't a way I could support it. Still, you're one to talk about arguments that don't make sense. See the statement above. Black people are genetically inferior in intelligence to others? I don't think that's correct. If you're not saying this, then your argument doesn't make sense. But if you are, it doesn't make sense anyways.

OP: Competition.

I must say I am really surprised by the intellectual arrogance in this thread. People are more intelligent now than they were decades ago? You must be joking. I think you guys are confusing intelligence with the accumulation knowledge. Just because we have more facts to memorize and some people have improved on old inventions doesn't mean we are more intelligent than our grandparents. These statements prove we never lose our thick headed ignorance.

How many of you can cook from scratch, nit your own clothing, build your own cabin, install your own electricity using a gas powered generator, split wood and start a fire without matches or put a door on its hinges? I bet most of you struggle to replace a light bulb or change a tire. My grandparents and great grandparents could do all of these things. And oh by the way, they had a profession on the side. I'm sure you can tell me a lot of facts about the eukaryotic cell you memorized from a book, but that is no different than reciting lines from a religious text.

Don't hit your enormous heads on the way out of this thread. It's you guys that give doctors such a bad reputation.

You're the one giving doctors a bad name. Your rudeness and attitude aren't going to give doctors a better reputation.

Nope, not accumulative knowledge. I'm talking about thinking capacities and overall intelligence. Intelligence is, first determined by genetics, then the rest is played out by the environment you grow up in.

If kids these days weren't going to school and weren't raised in such a cushy environment, they could do that too. Your assumptions that just because they did that and we didn't is unsupportable by evidence.

I'm saying that the kids now are smarter because they are fed better, grow up in less abusive/more supportive environments, and have A LOT more opportunities and resources to succeed and be mentally challenged.

If we take your grandparents, make them young again, do you think they could handle the classroom environment of today if they were still fed the way they were and grew up with the laws back then? If your grand parents were rich and had a lot of resources back then, then sure. If not and they grew up in a crappy childhood with little to eat and if they were even abused, it's unlikely they could handle it, if they're of average intelligence, genetically.

Throughout the years, the IQ average had to be adjusted upward to fit the mean, which is ever rising.

I don't think our society is "smarter" than generations of yore... our technology is, but that's another story.

I mean without spellchecker my writing looks as if it was composed by a dyslexic forest gump...hell, my 90 year old grandma can beat me at scrabble sometimes.

Without a calculator, it takes me an embarrassing amount of time to do mental math (i.e. calculating tips... er, uh, deuh).... my mother never thinks of pulling out a smart phone to help her with dumb math.

...basic stuff.

That said, I scored over 90th percentile on the mcat, lsat and gre. So where is the discrepancy coming from?

Society's new test prep companies + new tendencies to prep months + new gunner philosophy = contribution to higher scores more than "people are getting smarter".

Yes, but compare the overall intelligence of today's generation with the generation of years and years ago. Do you think people are dumb now? Yes, there are many dumb people now, still. What about back then? There were a lot more dumb people back then.. I'm not saying it's their fault. They probably weren't fed right, or grew up in a harsh environment/had a crappy socioeconomic status.

Spellcheck/calculator thing is.....relative. Back then, very few could spell correctly. Back then, few could read. Back then, few could do more than simple arithmetic.

 

[235788]

OP: Competition.

I must say I am really surprised by the intellectual arrogance in this thread. People are more intelligent now than they were decades ago? You must be joking. I think you guys are confusing intelligence with the accumulation knowledge. Just because we have more facts to memorize and some people have improved on old inventions doesn't mean we are more intelligent than our grandparents. These statements prove we never lose our thick headed ignorance.

How many of you can cook from scratch, nit your own clothing, build your own cabin, install your own electricity using a gas powered generator, split wood and start a fire without matches or put a door on its hinges? I bet most of you struggle to replace a light bulb or change a tire. My grandparents and great grandparents could do all of these things. And oh by the way, they had a profession on the side. I'm sure you can tell me a lot of facts about the eukaryotic cell you memorized from a book, but that is no different than reciting lines from a religious text.

Don't hit your enormous heads on the way out of this thread. It's you guys that give doctors such a bad reputation.

No, its the proletariat bottom 70% who think we make too much and are all crooks. Any "successful" career has a bad reputation; doctors, politicians, lawyers, CEOs, professional afaleets, celebrities, and so on...


People hate money, because money is viewed by many as proportional to self-worth/abilities. Another cool thing I learned in my upper div soc class!