Why are bench research labs often such toxic work environments?

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

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There are countless posts here about PI's, postdocs, and grad students abusing, manipulating, or otherwise having aggressive/inappropriate behavior towards pre meds and/or others below them. I've had this experience myself. I was in a colon cancer bench research lab and my PI once had a full on screaming match with the senior postdoc. There were their actual words:

PI: I want you to collect the cells in the afternoon
Post-Doc: Tell *Insert my Name* to do it
PI: He's got a midterm today he can't
Post-Doc: Then tell someone else to do it
PI: Listen, you're in my lab so you'll do as I say
Post Doc: I don't care I'm senior postdoc
PI: Do it by the end of the day

This is where the screaming started

Post-Doc: YOU KNOW WHAT THIS IS WHY I'M TRYING TO LEAVE YOUR LAB
PI: YOU WORK FOR ME UNDERSTAND?
Post-Doc: I'M JUST WAITING FOR MY PAPER TO GET PUBLISHED SO I CAN GET OUT OF HERE
PI: Fine then don't bother showing up from now on

 

[Tom&Jerry]

I feel like you will get this regardless of where you work with large enough sample size and a forum to tell such stories.

On a side note, my lab research group were one of the nicest people I have ever met and I enjoyed working with all of them.

 

[Lucca]

I've never had this kind of experience in the 4 research groups I've been in (all basic science). I've met problematic personalities in science, people with short tempers, etc. but the environment overall has never been 'toxic'.

Picking your adviser/PI is the single most important decision you will make in the early stage of your research career. I feel this is not emphasized strongly enough to undergrads, although it is practically a cliche at the graduate level.

That being said, I think toxic lab environments stay toxic over long periods of time because junior people in science have much less 'power' both in the lab and inside the broader institution than senior members, especially the PI. A good department will have resources and people dedicated to helping junior people resolve problems in their group, even if that solution is ultimately that the junior person transfers to another group.

Most of the lab groups I have been a part of practice a kind of 'flat hierarchy' where everyone's opinion is taken seriously and everyone has an opportunity to contribute to group decisions from buying a new instrument, organizing cleaning rota, contributing ideas about new experiments, etc. No matter how 'flat' this hierarchy is in the everyday workings of the lab, at the end of the day the reality is that the PI can end your career with a wave of their hand while trying to hold them accountable for misconduct or wrongdoing could turn into a multi-year battle with your entire department, institution even. So, even if the individuals that you describe are rare (and, in my opinion, they certainly are), the way most labs are organized makes them very resistant to change.

 

[3toedsloth]

There was a lab manager who was like 1 year out of undergrad. She used to thrive off of yelling at undergrads and just generally being a b*tch.

It was so toxic.

I feel like a lot of people in bench research are like this. I don't know why it's that way though. You're not alone in being surrounded by toxic culture. Sorry you're going through it.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

People get treated like s**t when they started out and then carry on the tradition because they feel they've earned the right and because they have a group of letters after their name. This is no different than what happens on sports teams, in greek life and many other professional settings. You choose not to associate it with academia because many presume that we're above it. Problem is education and intelligence doesn't preclude you from being a d**k.

At some point, many of us will experience this from a PI, post-doc, resident, attending, etc. Power through it (unless they do something that is actually illegal) and decide to be the person who breaks the cycle.

 

[mimelim]

There are countless posts here about PI's, postdocs, and grad students abusing, manipulating, or otherwise having aggressive/inappropriate behavior towards pre meds and/or others below them. I've had this experience myself. I was in a colon cancer bench research lab and my PI once had a full on screaming match with the senior postdoc. There were their actual words:

PI: I want you to collect the cells in the afternoon
Post-Doc: Tell *Insert my Name* to do it
PI: He's got a midterm today he can't
Post-Doc: Then tell someone else to do it
PI: Listen, you're in my lab so you'll do as I say
Post Doc: I don't care I'm senior postdoc
PI: Do it by the end of the day

This is where the screaming started

Post-Doc: YOU KNOW WHAT THIS IS WHY I'M TRYING TO LEAVE YOUR LAB
PI: YOU WORK FOR ME UNDERSTAND?
Post-Doc: I'M JUST WAITING FOR MY PAPER TO GET PUBLISHED SO I CAN GET OUT OF HERE
PI: Fine then don't bother showing up from now on

I've never had this kind of experience in the 4 research groups I've been in (all basic science). I've met problematic personalities in science, people with short tempers, etc. but the environment overall has never been 'toxic'.

Picking your adviser/PI is the single most important decision you will make in the early stage of your research career. I feel this is not emphasized strongly enough to undergrads, although it is practically a cliche at the graduate level.

That being said, I think toxic lab environments stay toxic over long periods of time because junior people in science have much less 'power' both in the lab and inside the broader institution than senior members, especially the PI. A good department will have resources and people dedicated to helping junior people resolve problems in their group, even if that solution is ultimately that the junior person transfers to another group.

Most of the lab groups I have been a part of practice a kind of 'flat hierarchy' where everyone's opinion is taken seriously and everyone has an opportunity to contribute to group decisions from buying a new instrument, organizing cleaning rota, contributing ideas about new experiments, etc. No matter how 'flat' this hierarchy is in the everyday workings of the lab, at the end of the day the reality is that the PI can end your career with a wave of their hand while trying to hold them accountable for misconduct or wrongdoing could turn into a multi-year battle with your entire department, institution even. So, even if the individuals that you describe are rare (and, in my opinion, they certainly are), the way most labs are organized makes them very resistant to change.

People get treated like s**t when they started out and then carry on the tradition because they feel they've earned the right and because they have a group of letters after their name. This is no different than what happens on sports teams, in greek life and many other professional settings. You choose not to associate it with academia because many presume that we're above it. Problem is education and intelligence doesn't preclude you from being a d**k.

At some point, many of us will experience this from a PI, post-doc, resident, attending, etc. Power through it (unless they do something that is actually illegal) and decide to be the person who breaks the cycle.

What you are describing is not outside of the norm in virtually every field. I never experienced this in several basic science labs I've been associated with over the years, but certainly have seen it in surgical residency. But, I can also say that I've seen this between employees at a hardware store, heard about it at the legal firm my wife worked at, between a waiter and their employer, etc. This has nothing to do with academics. This is what humans are like. Maybe it is slightly more common in different fields because certain people collect in them, but for the most part it is field independent.

 

[Microbug]

I would agree with @mimelim above that this is not an isolated phenomenon in academic science. It just all depends on individual cases and the lab dynamic. You have to talk to people before joining a lab and each lab have their own personality, it might work for some and not for others. For example, some lab have workaholic personalities and if you’re about work-life balance, you might be miserable. Or if a lab has a personality of giving each other s*** and not being political correct, you should not join if you are a snowflake. I would say for the most part, it is rare to truly have a toxic and unprofessional environment (rate but still exist), but due to current political climate and generation turnover, a lot of these things are changing and not being tolerated/swept under the rug anymore. You just have to do some digging and find a lab where you enjoy not only the work but also like the people. And when you do find it, it is like finding another family. Also like family, it won’t be perfect, you will fight occasionally and be petty, but you love them enough to deal with it, just like all adult relationships.

 

[TheBiologist]

Glad to know that bench research is the only career where conversations like that happen

 

[Goro]

There are countless posts here about PI's, postdocs, and grad students abusing, manipulating, or otherwise having aggressive/inappropriate behavior towards pre meds and/or others below them. I've had this experience myself. I was in a colon cancer bench research lab and my PI once had a full on screaming match with the senior postdoc. There were their actual words:

PI: I want you to collect the cells in the afternoon
Post-Doc: Tell *Insert my Name* to do it
PI: He's got a midterm today he can't
Post-Doc: Then tell someone else to do it
PI: Listen, you're in my lab so you'll do as I say
Post Doc: I don't care I'm senior postdoc
PI: Do it by the end of the day

This is where the screaming started

Post-Doc: YOU KNOW WHAT THIS IS WHY I'M TRYING TO LEAVE YOUR LAB
PI: YOU WORK FOR ME UNDERSTAND?
Post-Doc: I'M JUST WAITING FOR MY PAPER TO GET PUBLISHED SO I CAN GET OUT OF HERE
PI: Fine then don't bother showing up from now on

Confirmation bias, much?
What you're describing is out of the ordinary, but will occur in ANY work environment.

 

[PreMedTexan]

My first research position was in a lab that was in a very toxic environment. Some of my coworkers went out of there way to sabotage others' work. After about four months of daily drama and other crap, I found myself another research gig.

 

[Robin-jay]

I've never had this kind of experience in the 4 research groups I've been in (all basic science). I've met problematic personalities in science, people with short tempers, etc. but the environment overall has never been 'toxic'.

While I was in chemistry graduate school, one of the PhD's who shared lab space with our group from time to time was scary af. Seriously, his temper was unreal. He was a good guy "when" he was nice, but he sure was rough to be around when his temper shot off. Smart guy, but just because he was the most senior of all the graduate students didn't give him the right to act like his head was going to explode.

Whatever happened to patience being a virtue? This guy had none.

However, my own lab group was very kind, and definitely not toxic.

 

[Lannister]

I did some ecology research in undergrad, and the people I worked with told me about this very well-known PI in the field who, every time one of his students or post-docs made a mistake, got a manuscript rejected, etc., would write a poem about what a loser they were and read it in front of the whole lab.

 

[Microbug]

I did some ecology research in undergrad, and the people I worked with told me about this very well-known PI in the field who, every time one of his students or post-docs made a mistake, got a manuscript rejected, etc., would write a poem about what a loser they were and read it in front of the whole lab.

that is kind of hilarious, honestly, I would get a kick out of the poems and think it’s funny. But again, not for everyone

 

[Lannister]

that is kind of hilarious, honestly, I would get a kick out of the poems and think it’s funny. But again, not for everyone

I thought it sounded hilarious too, but the way they were talking about it made it sound like the poems were not meant to be funny. And I guess he just had a general reputation of being an dingus.

 

[Microbug]

I thought it sounded hilarious too, but the way they were talking about it made it sound like the poems were not meant to be funny. And I guess he just had a general reputation of being an dingus.

A+++ for creativity, seems like a lot of effort on the PI’s part.

 

[getdown]

The problem with graduate school is that the PIs are trying to make a name of themselves on the graduate students and post-docs back. It all stems on trying to get tenure and to get tenure you have to produce hence the production pressure. Combine production pressure with limited funding and you end up with angry/stressed out PI and it trickles into the rest of the lab.

 

[seren1051]

hot damn what kind of greenhouse am I living in? All my bench research labs Ive been through had been filled with da most wonderful people ive ever met. Guess i should toughen up before I move on.

 

[mistafab]

Sane reason for all drama - people are bored.

 

[altblue]

There's a high stakes environment (PI has to keep getting grants, postdoc desperate for a permanent position, grad student wants to finish their dissertations). Post-docs want to be "the productive one", PIs are concerned with competition within their field too or department

Academic research is intrinsically prestigious as well and fosters all the positives, and negatives, associated with that prestige too. Some negatives like condescension come to mind

And I'll be frank, the vast majority people in lab are socially competent, but research tends to attract a few with poor social skills that wouldn't have been able to make it past the gate in other fields. Then they find out that poor management skills, pettiness, sexism etc. won't take them far in lab. Helps pollute the work environment

 

[MedicalDoge]

My first lab was horrible. They called the undergrads "minions" and just made us wash dishes and blamed us for everything wrong in the lab. The PI was not the kindest person either. He always gave his post docs the lowest ratings on their presentations lol. N=1 but it seems like research labs in the Pharmacy School were toxic in general, probably because they had the most money at my undergrad and therefore the most pressure?

Anyway, left that place and researched in an amazing lab in the Veterinary School at my institution with a brilliant PI. Everything happens for a reason!

 

[Jdp00921]

Some of these stories are so unfortunate!! Both my PI and the other students I worked with in lab were seriously awesome. I actually enjoyed going to my lab every week! It's really awful that some undergrads had such awful experiences.

 

[•Syzygy•]

again though, everything said in this thread can be applied to any job ever...

some will be great, some will suck.

my current lab group is very collaborative and we get a ton of stuff done / are very efficient. we all constantly joke around too. i definitely got lucky

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

that is kind of hilarious, honestly, I would get a kick out of the poems and think it’s funny. But again, not for everyone

Yeah, that's awesome. We did similar stuff at my first command just to make new guys feel welcome (like finding hilarious pictures on their Facebooks and printing them out as mousepads).

 

[deleted804295]

There are countless posts here about PI's, postdocs, and grad students abusing, manipulating, or otherwise having aggressive/inappropriate behavior towards pre meds and/or others below them. I've had this experience myself. I was in a colon cancer bench research lab and my PI once had a full on screaming match with the senior postdoc. There were their actual words:

PI: I want you to collect the cells in the afternoon
Post-Doc: Tell *Insert my Name* to do it
PI: He's got a midterm today he can't
Post-Doc: Then tell someone else to do it
PI: Listen, you're in my lab so you'll do as I say
Post Doc: I don't care I'm senior postdoc
PI: Do it by the end of the day

This is where the screaming started

Post-Doc: YOU KNOW WHAT THIS IS WHY I'M TRYING TO LEAVE YOUR LAB
PI: YOU WORK FOR ME UNDERSTAND?
Post-Doc: I'M JUST WAITING FOR MY PAPER TO GET PUBLISHED SO I CAN GET OUT OF HERE
PI: Fine then don't bother showing up from now on

Just join a research lab like one in plant biology and everyone is chill.

 

[Microbug]

Just join a research lab like one in plant biology and everyone is chill.

But plant biology, although I guess you can try to be the next McClintock

 

[aldol16]

To be fair, post-docs are employees of the PI. They go through the same type of hiring process anybody else goes through for any job. If your boss tells you to stack the shelves, you stack the shelves. You might not like, but they're your boss.

 

[PreMedStudent55555]

Another opinion here: Worked for a postdoc who was a complete **** to me over q summer research program. Expected me to know how to perform a 4 day lab protocol with techniques I have never done or had little experience with(dissect, plate, culture, centrifuge, western blot) after observing him once and was always criticizing/ insulting/ hounding me since week 2 whenever I made a tiny mistake or forgot something. Promised me a publication etc. It was toxic and I really hated it. It was my first time in a very serious lab (or toxic) but I was just an undergrad getting into his work and I was cut zero slack. Told me he was worried on how I would ever become a doctor as doctors are supposed to be able to "perform surgery after just observing it once". Honestly have been doubting my surgeon aspirations since and have just been working on being the best student I can be (MCAT, GPA, other ECs).

However, I'd like to echo what others have said. This is not only specific to research. I've worked in soup kitchens and hospitals that have had just as much toxicity. It's part of getting a job tbh and trying to find a good work environment and if you don't get one, then trying to compromise with toxic employees. Also, be aware of other's backgrounds. The **** postdoc I had to work with literally ranted to me about how much he hated being a postdoc and research sometimes.

Also, side note and me late night ranting, sometimes these environments can have a positive to them. I feel that after that experience I got to see the "dark side" to research and how hard it can be to succeed in such a field. The guy I worked with was on his 4th postdoc and it kinda showed me how hard it can be to be successful in research. I guess it helped because I don't see research in this naiive "I'm gonna cure cancer in a year" perspective but rather realize that people can dedicate decades to a project that can fail and that's how hard it can be.

Tl;dr This is common in a lot of workplaces. Just gotta get used to it and try to compromise. Try to take what you can from the experience.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Another opinion here: Worked for a postdoc who was a complete **** to me over q summer research program. Expected me to know how to perform a 4 day lab protocol with techniques I have never done or had little experience with(dissect, plate, culture, centrifuge, western blot) after observing him once and was always criticizing/ insulting/ hounding me since week 2 whenever I made a tiny mistake or forgot something. Promised me a publication etc. It was toxic and I really hated it. It was my first time in a very serious lab (or toxic) but I was just an undergrad getting into his work and I was cut zero slack. Told me he was worried on how I would ever become a doctor as doctors are supposed to be able to "perform surgery after just observing it once". Honestly have been doubting my surgeon aspirations since and have just been working on being the best student I can be (MCAT, GPA, other ECs).

However, I'd like to echo what others have said. This is not only specific to research. I've worked in soup kitchens and hospitals that have had just as much toxicity. It's part of getting a job tbh and trying to find a good work environment and if you don't get one, then trying to compromise with toxic employees. Also, be aware of other's backgrounds. The **** postdoc I had to work with literally ranted to me about how much he hated being a postdoc and research sometimes.

Also, side note and me late night ranting, sometimes these environments can have a positive to them. I feel that after that experience I got to see the "dark side" to research and how hard it can be to succeed in such a field. The guy I worked with was on his 4th postdoc and it kinda showed me how hard it can be to be successful in research. I guess it helped because I don't see research in this naiive "I'm gonna cure cancer in a year" perspective but rather realize that people can dedicate decades to a project that can fail and that's how hard it can be.

Tl;dr This is common in a lot of workplaces. Just gotta get used to it and try to compromise. Try to take what you can from the experience.

4th postdoc? Sounds like his attitude is causing his lack of success more than anything

 

[PreMedStudent55555]

4th postdoc? Sounds like his attitude is causing his lack of success more than anything

Idk. I don't like to judge but he said it's quite normal. I don't really care tbh though. I'm just happy to be back in school and don't have to deal with it anymore.