Why are DO schools median MCAT and GPA considerably lower than MD

[Kingsmen2018]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Just curious, because DO can basically do everything an MD can do and vice versa. They apply for the same residencies and the same jobs after. Because they are both physicians wouldn't you expect the competition to be about the same?

 

[efle]

Residency prospects are not the same coming from MD vs DO (on average)

 

[djtallahassee]

DOs have to jump through more hoops to get the competitive residency spots (aka take 2 sets of standardized test). I think this fact in large makes MD more competetive


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[mwsapphire]

So, what can DO's specialize in?
I've been wondering this for a while,
They typically do Peds and family med, but what about immunology, endocrinology, and oncology ( the specialties that stem from internal med).

 

[YayPudding]

So, what can DO's specialize in?
I've been wondering this for a while,
They typically do Peds and family med, but what about immunology, endocrinology, and oncology ( the specialties that stem from internal med).

DOs specialize in any and all fields of medicine and surgery

 

[gyngyn]

So, what can DO's specialize in?
I've been wondering this for a while,
They typically do Peds and family med, but what about immunology, endocrinology, and oncology ( the specialties that stem from internal med).

DO's are eligible for any specialty.

 

[YayPudding]

I think AACOMAS changing the grade replacement rule to mirror AMCAS is a step towards erasing differences as we approach merged residencies in 2021. My MCAT was above the 90th percentile and my GPA (undergrad and post-bacc) came out to 3.55 and I'm proud to be going to one of the originial DO schools

 

[mwsapphire]

^ That makes sense( that the ACOMAS change is reducing bias in residency), since you're competitive for both MD and DO with those stats ( especially w/ UW trend).

 

[djtallahassee]

Many allopathic residencies will take COMLEX (DO Board) and will not require USMLE (MD) score. Half of all Osteopathic graduates go to traditional MD residency programs

Ah didn't know that. I thought you had to do the USMLE for the allopathic residencies.

Still, a lot of DO students do take the USMLE Anyone know percentages?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Lawpy]

So, what can DO's specialize in?
I've been wondering this for a while,
They typically do Peds and family med, but what about immunology, endocrinology, and oncology ( the specialties that stem from internal med).

DOs specialize in any and all fields of medicine and surgery

DO's are eligible for any specialty.

But practically speaking, it is near impossible for DO's to get into the super competitive specialties like NSGY, derm and ortho.

 

[gyngyn]

But practically speaking, it is near impossible for DO's to get into the super competitive specialties like NSGY, derm and ortho.

They have had their own residencies in all of these.

 

[mwsapphire]

But practically speaking, it is near impossible for DO's to get into the super competitive specialties like NSGY, derm and ortho.

True, but I also think a DO with a 268 step and multiple pubs is still competitive, you know?

 

[Lawpy]

I think AACOMAS changing the grade replacement rule to mirror AMCAS is a step towards erasing differences as we approach merged residencies in 2021. My MCAT was above the 90th percentile and my GPA (undergrad and post-bacc) came out to 3.55 and I'm proud to be going to one of the originial DO schools

^ That makes sense( that the ACOMAS change is reducing bias in residency), since you're competitive for both MD and DO with those stats ( especially w/ UW trend).

Then what is the reason for keeping the two degrees separate? Why not just reintegrate DO into MD and add OMM as an elective for anyone interested?

 

[Lawpy]

They have had their own residencies which made it possible.

I actually never heard of AOA residencies in these specialties so that's news to me. Would they still be accessible to DO students after the merger?

 

[gyngyn]

I actually never heard of AOA residencies in these specialties so that's news to me. Would they still be accessible to DO students after the merger?

Time will tell.
A preference for DO's is predicted but some of them have already accepted MD students this cycle.

 

[mwsapphire]

They have had their own residencies in all of these.

That's really comforting.
It makes me feel like if I get DO and can't make it to MD I can still have the career I want.

 

[gyngyn]

That's really comforting.
It makes me feel like if I get DO and can't make it to MD I can still have the career I want.

All residencies will be ACGME accredited long before you Match!

 

[Lawpy]

Time will tell.

It's difficult to imagine though. These specialties are very hard to get into for US MD graduates despite strong Step scores, clinical grades, letters and research. That's why many have to downgrade their interests by pursuing less competitive alternatives. If the AOA counterparts are accessible, the MD graduates who would've downgraded can apply here and outcompete their DO peers.

I think the effective solution is to unify the two degrees under a single pathway.

 

[cactusman]

So, what can DO's specialize in?
I've been wondering this for a while,
They typically do Peds and family med, but what about immunology, endocrinology, and oncology ( the specialties that stem from internal med).

I believe most IM subspecialties are very DO friendly (cardiology and some others may be less so), although I'd guess that elite academic residencies have significant bias.

 

[Lawpy]

Many allopathic residencies will take COMLEX (DO Board) and will not require USMLE (MD) score. Half of all Osteopathic graduates go to traditional MD residency programs

I wonder how these residencies would respond if a DO student barely passed the COMLEX and destroyed the USMLE.

 

[cactusman]

It's difficult to imagine though. These specialties are very hard to get into for US MD graduates despite strong Step scores, clinical grades, letters and research. That's why many have to downgrade their interests by pursuing less competitive alternatives. If the AOA counterparts are accessible, the MD graduates who would've downgraded can apply here and outcompete their DO peers.

I think the effective solution is to unify the two degrees under a single pathway.

With the historical DO ties and more competitive DOs, I suspect osteopathic med students will still dominate AOA residencies. A lot of DOs have strong scores and resumés even if they're passed over for competitive programs.

 

[Lawpy]

With historical bias for DO students and more competitive DOs, I suspect osteopathic med students will still dominate AOA residencies.

All residencies will be ACGME accredited long before you Match!

Wait confused. If all AOA residencies convert to ACGME residencies because of the merger, how would the historical trends still apply to favor DO students? Are all the AOA PDs/aPDs still keeping their jobs despite now working under the new ACGME rules and guidelines?

Does the residency accreditation agency have an impact on the resident selection process?

 

[cactusman]

Wait confused. If all AOA residencies convert to ACGME residencies because of the merger, how would the historical trends still apply to favor DO students? Are all the AOA PDs/aPDs still keeping their jobs despite now working under the new ACGME rules and guidelines?

Does the residency accreditation agency have an impact on the resident selection process?

I'm sure residencies won't have any space formally reserved for DO or anything, but that doesn't mean there can't be biases and networking connections.

 

[Lawpy]

And I wonder if my grandmother had wheels if she would be a wagon.... hypothetical that seems unlikely

lol but actually it can be pretty realistic since most effort is given to USMLE exams and not so much for COMLEX.

I'm sure residencies won't have any space formally reserved for DO or anything, but that doesn't mean there can't be biases and networking connections.

Biases/networking exist but could they be overcome by MD counterparts with equally if not stronger credentials? Which is possible given that MD schools do have access to better resources and networking opportunities?

 

[gyngyn]

Wait confused. If all AOA residencies convert to ACGME residencies because of the merger, how would the historical trends still apply to favor DO students? Are all the AOA PDs/aPDs still keeping their jobs despite now working under the new ACGME rules and guidelines?

Does the residency accreditation agency have an impact on the resident selection process?

You can use the example of the mission-based schools.
A preference for a particular quality can have a powerful effect.

DO PD's were not removed as part of the transition. Programs and positions have closed and are predicted to close, though.

 

[Lawpy]

You can use the example of the mission-based schools.
A preference for a particular quality can have a powerful effect.

No DO PD's were harmed in the transition (to my knowledge). Programs have closed, though.

But mission-based schools have long term goals they want to pursue (like providing primary care physicians for their state and local communities). Not sure how this applies to DO students applying to former AOA residencies since osteopathic medicine isn't a long term focus?

Unless the bias/preference is short-term (for a few years or so).

 

[gyngyn]

But mission-based schools have long term goals they want to pursue (like providing primary care physicians for their state and local communities). Not sure how this applies to DO students applying to former AOA residencies since osteopathic medicine isn't a long term focus?

Unless the bias/preference is short-term (for a few years or so).

Many in the DO leadership do view the distinction and preservation of the degree as a long term goal.

 

[Lawpy]

Many in the DO leadership do view the distinction and preservation of the degree as a mission.

Okay so that's the key issue that currently maintains the separation between the two degrees even after the residency merger.

 

[Lawpy]

Politics and turf.

The much larger allopathic medical establishment had been at odds with Osteopaths since the turn of the 20th century. DOs had developed their own hospital systems that were prominent in certain states and cities as they couldnt get privileges in allopathic institutions. This started to change in the 1960s, partly due to the influence of Nelson Rockefeller, governor of New York and for a short time, Vice President of the United States under Gerald Ford. However, it took some 20-30 years for this to be widely accepted. Podiatrists had a similar timeline in their fight to gain admitting and hospital privileges. In the early and mid 1990s, there was much talk of merging the two, ultimately leading to a project in about 1995 called "Physician 2015." This was an attempt in a grand unification of MD, DO, and DPM.

It was mired in politics and turf from the start. Why? Their is the entire medical establishment of the AMA, LCME, ACGME, AAMC, for MDs, AOA, COCA, AACOM, for DO, and similar groups for DPM. Every state has their own medical board and many had a separate board for Osteopaths and Podiatrists. Every specialty across MD and DO, and in every state, county, city, has a society with its own turf to protect. It was a mess. The podiatrists got no respect and pulled out quickly, the medical and osteopathic colleges pulled out soon after, but the national groups kept talking, and talking, and talking for years about combining residencies.

What I think finally pushed them to act was the constraint on residency slots. Even though residency programs are educationally run often by a school, the actual employee slot belongs to the hospital and is paid primarily by medicare. And once a hospital gets a slot, it never gives it up. So as the traditionally osteopathic hospitals starting losing essentially losing market share to the ever merging and growing MD hospital corporations and losing potential doctors who as DO choose to attend MD residency and work in traditional MD slots, they had lots of open residency slots. Over a thousand slots a year not being filled in Osteopathic programs . The Allopathic side saw these as potential growth and finally "Physician 2015" led to the merger of residencies

Thanks for the essential history! Going to save this as useful reference.

 

[efle]

Same book will cover Caribbean too right?

 

[mwsapphire]

Same book will cover Caribbean too right?

Nooo, that book is just gonna be one page that says
"Don't"
But it costs a thousand dollars and says it will give you valued insight and all the answers you're looking for.

 

[mwsapphire]

I was trying to make a joke....

 

[jcorpsmanMD]

It was a bad joke.

 

[mwsapphire]

I thought it fit with Gonnif's puns,you should try it sometime 🙂 🙂 🙂


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[libertyyne]

There are some residencies that have been for all realistic purposes closed off for DO students.this is unlikely to change in the near term and the AOA residencies in the Uber specialties have been available in lower proportions per us senior.

There is a great fear on the osteo board that program directors for Uber aoa programs will be inundated with competitive MD apps making it even more difficult for DO students to get into those fields.

This inequality is further exacerbated due to differences in qualities of CVs at residency application time. The conversation surrounding that was that even when you take high step score osteopathic students the rest of their CV is lacking compared to MD counterparts. The reasons for these are likely due to systemic issues in DO schools in providing quality research opportunities and lack of home programs at a majority of these schools. Maybe population differences between he two as well.

MD schools are more competitive for
1. Opportunities they provide./ Research/ home programs/
2. More often than not better clinical rotations.
3. Persistent stigma/bias against DOs.
4. I do think do schools are on average more expensive than their MD counterparts but I don't have data to back this up.