Why are DO schools promulgating the idea that the residency merger is of benefit to DO students?

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le_purrde

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I've interviewed at 4 DO schools so far. All of them have mentioned how great the upcoming merger is going to be for DO students. Why? Does anyone really know anything beyond speculation at this point? It seems like to me the only thing DO students might receive from this merger is additional competition into the competitive residencies that were formerly for DO students only.
 
le_purrde said:
I've interviewed at 4 DO schools so far. All of them have mentioned how great the upcoming merger is going to be for DO students. Why? Does anyone really know anything beyond speculation at this point? It seems like to me the only thing DO students might receive from this merger is additional competition into the competitive residencies that were formerly for DO students only.
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What would you say if you were trying to recruit a student into your school and something like the merger happened? You would try to spin it as a good thing. Which it is for those interested in noncompetative specialties, now they will be able to do one match. You are also correct that former specialties like Derm and Ortho that DO's used to get into with our own slots just got that much harder also.
 
JamesPotterMS-3 said:
oh jesus.
Question: Why are DO schools promulgating the idea that the residency merger is of benefit to DO students?
Answer: Because it is.
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Care to elaborate?

The only benefit I see is no longer having to rank AOA programs and thus forfeiting the ACGME match out of insecurity
 
Roxas said:
Care to elaborate?

The only benefit I see is no longer having to rank AOA programs and thus forfeiting the ACGME match out of insecurity
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There are many benefits but the main one, in my opinion, is better post-graduate training. The AOA has ridiculously low standards for programs. Tiny community hospitals with 100 beds were sponsoring institutions for giant residency programs in multiple fields. Residents rotated through a dozen hospitals during their training to get the case volume they needed to graduate. Little oversight over compliance with duty hour restrictions.
The ACGME will force programs to be shrink and raise standards.
Will certain fields become more competitive in the process? Absolutely yes. We are seeing that already. And that's OK by me. Medical education is a constantly evolving field.
 
Agree with a combination of the above comments. It's good that (competitive) DO applicants will no longer have to 'play the game' of being in two matches and potentially withdrawing from consideration at better NRMP programs due to uncertainty of matching. On the flip side, not so good for less competitive applicants who could have previously banked on having a DO program accept them.

It also will improve training by weeding out subpar DO programs (for example, a decent number of DO radiology programs shut down and I can certainly say that some of them are no big loss). Yes, it'll potentially increase competition but is better overall.
 
These schools and clueless students just don't understand or refuse to understand what is going on. My opinion is further reinforced by schools and students telling people that it means that you only need COMLEX because it will have to be accepted by residency programs. Lol just lol at this merger for those of us with any ambition. It is only bad news for us.
 
Neopolymath said:
These schools and clueless students just don't understand or refuse to understand what is going on. My opinion is further reinforced by schools and students telling people that it means that you only need COMLEX because it will have to be accepted by residency programs. Lol just lol at this merger for those of us with any ambition. It is only bad news for us.
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A big critique I have of my school is their inability to realize how important the USMLE is for students to take. If anything it's more important to take it now.
 
SpartanWolverine said:
A big critique I have of my school is their inability to realize how important the USMLE is for students to take. If anything it's more important to take it now.
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At mine they've always acknowledged the need to take both and have above average scores on USMLE so thats more school dependent I think than all DOs
 
JamesPotterMS-3 said:
There are many benefits but the main one, in my opinion, is better post-graduate training. The AOA has ridiculously low standards for programs. Tiny community hospitals with 100 beds were sponsoring institutions for giant residency programs in multiple fields. Residents rotated through a dozen hospitals during their training to get the case volume they needed to graduate. Little oversight over compliance with duty hour restrictions.
The ACGME will force programs to be shrink and raise standards.
Will certain fields become more competitive in the process? Absolutely yes. We are seeing that already. And that's OK by me. Medical education is a constantly evolving field.
Click to expand...

This is what I would like to see, but AOA programs that fit the bolded descriptions have already slipped through the cracks and achieved initial accreditation status.

OP, there is a huge advantage in DO students having a single match, but more likely the DO schools just don't want to admit that (from my understanding) the AOA's hand was forced with the merger.
 
I agree with the merger being great overall (standardization of GME = AWESOME) and that the competitive specialties are still competitive (whoa. shocker. wow.) Will DO's lose "reserved" seats at DO-specific programs? Sure. Whatever. But if you have a strong application I don't think you have anything to worry about.

If you planned on squeaking through with a mediocre application into a competitive specialty because the MD students can't apply to a certain subset of seats, then honestly you don't deserve that seat and you SHOULD be weeded out.

One of the main points of this merger is leveling the playing field across the board; standardizing both GME and quality of physicians; demonstrating that DO's and MD's are different but equal. If you can't outcompete an MD applicant for a surgical/derm/NSG/*insert competitive specialty here* seat, then you don't deserve it.

Take the USMLE, score well, build a strong application, and apply for whatever residency you feel you'll be competitive for, JUST LIKE THE MD's DO. If that means you have to outscore an MD applicant because you're a DO and the residency director of your desired residency program has some kind of archaic, biased mindset, don't complain, just do it.

I cannot stand all these doomsday mentality individuals talking about the merger (in general; not referring to anyone on this thread.) Work hard and sacrifice; show residency programs you belong there, and you'll be alright. This merger is great for everyone.
 
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It is good for the profession overall for the reasons mentioned above, but it will be a rough go for those aiming for competitive fields that aren’t superstar applicants. I’m completely ok with that. Honestly I am far more concerned with the increase in competition overall due to the rapid increase of US medical students.
 
While as a whole most MD physicians recognize DOs as equals, but there are still the naysayers out there who believe that osteopathic physicians are inferior. The merger is essentially the first step in closing this gap and will more than likely lead to even greater changes in the next 20 years.
 
Always keep in mind that there are only some 3000 AOA residencies. And the most competitive ones are the uber-specialties like Optho, Uro, ENT and Derm, just like in the MD world.

I agree with most of the thoughts in this thread, and just keep in mind that the sky isn't falling. It's going to be easier to predict who will win the 2020 presidential election than predict what the outcome of the merger will be, but everything I'd heard from my well connected DO colleagues (including our Dean) is that it will be a good thing, and no, I don't think that they're whistling in the graveyard either.
 
Natural Killer Cell said:
Do you think it's because our school expects most of the students to say in-house in the SCS where COMLEX will still be considered seriously?
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Mine is like this, I think they just expect everyone to stay in the OMECO system where all the residencies have said they are really only still looking at COMLEX. I get that we have a bigger safety net than most school but it is still a disservice to not help students with the USMLE
 
le_purrde said:
I've interviewed at 4 DO schools so far. All of them have mentioned how great the upcoming merger is going to be for DO students. Why? Does anyone really know anything beyond speculation at this point? It seems like to me the only thing DO students might receive from this merger is additional competition into the competitive residencies that were formerly for DO students only.
Click to expand...

The whole beginning to the new ACGME was because DOs were going to be left out of any fellowship opportunities. It was either create the new ACGME, or be left out of fellowships opportunities.
 
le_purrde said:
I've interviewed at 4 DO schools so far. All of them have mentioned how great the upcoming merger is going to be for DO students. Why? Does anyone really know anything beyond speculation at this point? It seems like to me the only thing DO students might receive from this merger is additional competition into the competitive residencies that were formerly for DO students only.
Click to expand...

Are they gonna tell the truth?

"We just made a compromising concession to the obvious detriment of our students. And we're increasing seats by 20p per year until there are masses of unplaced. And effective yesterday, no grade replacement.

Please come to our school that is only 60k per year."
 
Natural Killer Cell said:
Do you think it's because our school expects most of the students to say in-house in the SCS where COMLEX will still be considered seriously?
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I don't think it's a purposeful attempt to mislead us but more that, historically, most students only took the COMLEX and were able to get matched into the specialty they wanted within the SCS. Now that a few of the competitive specialties (rads, neurosurg, etc.) have lost programs to the ACGME accreditation process - and more students are interested in competitive specialties - they just aren't quite up-to-date with the importance of the USMLE.
 
SpartanWolverine said:
Absolutely. I don't think it's a purposeful attempt to mislead us but more that, historically, most students only took the COMLEX and were able to get matched into the specialty they wanted within the SCS. Now that a few of the competitive specialties (rads, neurosurg, etc.) have lost programs to the ACGME accreditation process - and more students are interested in competitive specialties - they just aren't quite up-to-date with the importance of the USMLE.
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Which basically means they aren't doing their jobs, or at very least aren't very good at doing their jobs.

Good medical school admins generally have a good handle of what opportunities are available to their students and go the extra mile to maximise those opportunities. If a school's administration isn't even really cognisant of the importance of the USMLE they either really drank the kool-aid on this COMLEX bull****e or they are clueless.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
Which basically means they aren't doing their jobs, or at very least aren't very good at doing their jobs.

Good medical school admins generally have a good handle of what opportunities are available to their students and go the extra mile to maximise those opportunities. If a school's administration isn't even really cognisant of the importance of the USMLE they either really drank the kool-aid on this COMLEX bull****e or they are clueless.
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To be fair, our school advisors explicitely suggest to prepare for and take the USMLE if they 1. Are historically good test takers/are doing well in class 2. Plan to apply to competitive programs and 3. Plan to apply outside of our OPTI system. Since the majority of our graduating classes do stay within the system, they arent doing a major disservice assuming that the majority of the class isnt within one of those groups. While I agree it would be more advantagious to teach the whole class that they will have to take the USMLE and be well prepared for it, our school advisors do have a good grip on what the students need to do to do what most of the classes have historically done and will most likely continue to do so (which is stay where they have a home team advantage)

(Just playing devils advocate, I do fully believe that we need to shift towards a more USMLE driven curriculum/prepring students to compete with everyone)
 
We had a member of one of the big national associations give a talk to our class about how they are starting to develop crash course training programs for MDs in OMM now that the merger is imminent. We spend four years and precious time in medical school learning techniques that MDs can now take a two week crash course in during/after residency. DO students are being hurt by the Osteopathic leaderships unwillingness to fully commit to the allopathic world (i.e. removing COMLEX). Without embracing the MD undergraduate medical education curriculum we are basically playing a game with our hands tied behind our back. Some of the more stellar DO students will benefit from the merger, but many of us are going to lose and lose big.
 
IsWhat said:
We had a member of one of the big national associations give a talk to our class about how they are starting to develop crash course training programs for MDs in OMM now that the merger is imminent. We spend four years and precious time in medical school learning techniques that MDs can now take a two week crash course in during/after residency. DO students are being hurt by the Osteopathic leaderships unwillingness to fully commit to the allopathic world (i.e. removing COMLEX). Without embracing the MD undergraduate medical education curriculum we are basically playing a game with our hands tied behind our back. Some of the more stellar DO students will benefit from the merger, but many of us are going to lose and lose big.
Click to expand...
Idk I don't think it's going to be this big doomsday. The ones that will be screwed are the IMGs/FMGs I'm thinking. A regular residency program will take a US graduate over an internation 8/10 times from what I've gathered. Sure there wont be DO only uber-competitive residencies but the merger goes a long way into eliminating some of the DO bias, which is important in the long run of the profession. You will still match and be a great doc, just maybe not in neurosurg/derm (which is pretty darn competitive anyway, regardless of the two tiny letters behind your name) Just bust your ass and let the chips fall where they may because worrying about the possibilities now doesn't do a whole lot for anybody. And in terms of average DO grads losing, there are still going to be plenty of IM, peds, etc slots. It just might not be in your #1 city
 
BorntobeDO? said:
What would you say if you were trying to recruit a student into your school and something like the merger happened? You would try to spin it as a good thing. Which it is for those interested in noncompetative specialties, now they will be able to do one match. You are also correct that former specialties like Derm and Ortho that DO's used to get into with our own slots just got that much harder also.
Click to expand...
Most of the people I know who are applying to non-competitive fields still skip out on “DO programs”. Do you know why? Because it’s non-competitive. :idea:
 
I think the logical next step with the imminent merger is eliminating the requirement to take the COMLEX. Is that a possibility? Something that has been discussed?
 
statlin98 said:
I think the logical next step with the imminent merger is eliminating the requirement to take the COMLEX. Is that a possibility? Something that has been discussed?
Click to expand...
From what I've heard it's possible but not in the near future; too many people making too much money off of it. Plus, that wonderful exam is what makes us different from them, right? The :bow:COMLEX:bow: is a representation of our identity as DOs. 😏:lame:...:laugh:
 
SpartanWolverine said:
A big critique I have of my school is their inability to realize how important the USMLE is for students to take. If anything it's more important to take it now.
Click to expand...
This is really the only glaring fault I've noticed with my school so far (haven't started rotations yet so we'll see). Smart kids in my class are passing on the USMLE and it's likely going to hurt them more than they can imagine. Far be it form me to push them though.
statlin98 said:
I think the logical next step with the imminent merger is eliminating the requirement to take the COMLEX. Is that a possibility? Something that has been discussed?
Click to expand...
Logical? Yes, but I haven't seen any signs of it happening. The NBOME seems to think they are the only ones qualified to test our knowledge of OMM. As long as OMM remains a mainstay in the DO curriculum, there will be a board exam for it. The real reason is money fyi but I think we all knew that.
 
Chibucks15 said:
Idk I don't think it's going to be this big doomsday. The ones that will be screwed are the IMGs/FMGs I'm thinking. A regular residency program will take a US graduate over an internation 8/10 times from what I've gathered. Sure there wont be DO only uber-competitive residencies but the merger goes a long way into eliminating some of the DO bias, which is important in the long run of the profession. You will still match and be a great doc, just maybe not in neurosurg/derm (which is pretty darn competitive anyway, regardless of the two tiny letters behind your name) Just bust your ass and let the chips fall where they may because worrying about the possibilities now doesn't do a whole lot for anybody. And in terms of average DO grads losing, there are still going to be plenty of IM, peds, etc slots. It just might not be in your #1 city
Click to expand...

The anti-DO bias is largely rooted in lower admission standards for matriculating students and lower accreditation standards for new institutions. The merger doesn't address that at all.

Furthermore I don't see how it's going to screw IMGs/FMGs any more than the match already does. They're gonna match into the same low-tier ACGME residency slots they always have, nothing new here.

IsWhat said:
We had a member of one of the big national associations give a talk to our class about how they are starting to develop crash course training programs for MDs in OMM now that the merger is imminent. We spend four years and precious time in medical school learning techniques that MDs can now take a two week crash course in during/after residency. DO students are being hurt by the Osteopathic leaderships unwillingness to fully commit to the allopathic world (i.e. removing COMLEX). Without embracing the MD undergraduate medical education curriculum we are basically playing a game with our hands tied behind our back. Some of the more stellar DO students will benefit from the merger, but many of us are going to lose and lose big.
Click to expand...

That guy is delusional. We aren't learning OMM and the merger isn't going to change that.
 
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Lexdiamondz said:
The anti-DO bias is largely rooted in lower admission standards for matriculating students and lower accreditation standards for new institutions. The merger doesn't address that at all.

Furthermore I don't see how it's going to screw IMGs/FMGs any more than the match already does. They're gonna match into the same low-tier ACGME residency slots they always have, nothing new here.
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Yeah but I just feel like that may skew more towards USMGs and they might get squeezed still just because of the amount of DOs that only don't go for the ACGME matching because of the inherent risk involved for them. Plus now that DOs are (should be at least) taking the USMLE, if I was a PD I would feel much better about a USMG then an IMG, unless that person is stellar. The lower admission standards are moving upward, especially at the established schools they're already as high if not higher as some of the lower MDs. With the merger, in order to have their students compete standards will rise (at least ideally) at these schools because there isn't the safety net of the AOA match to cite as to why change isn't needed in rotations and curriculum. It's by no means going to be an overnight change but long term I think it helps to lessen the bias because at least in one large facet of the training there will no longer be a difference. It's a step in the direction towards it all being the same with an elective in OMM which at this point it should be because everything else is the same
 
Chibucks15 said:
Idk I don't think it's going to be this big doomsday. The ones that will be screwed are the IMGs/FMGs I'm thinking. A regular residency program will take a US graduate over an internation 8/10 times from what I've gathered. Sure there wont be DO only uber-competitive residencies but the merger goes a long way into eliminating some of the DO bias, which is important in the long run of the profession. You will still match and be a great doc, just maybe not in neurosurg/derm (which is pretty darn competitive anyway, regardless of the two tiny letters behind your name) Just bust your ass and let the chips fall where they may because worrying about the possibilities now doesn't do a whole lot for anybody. And in terms of average DO grads losing, there are still going to be plenty of IM, peds, etc slots. It just might not be in your #1 city
Click to expand...

It's a math problem

When there are 28k residencies and 24k domestic grads, everyone places

When there are 30k residencies and 35k domestic grads, a lot aren't going to place.
 
MMS: Error

This doesn't seems to agree with that math

EDIT: I don't know if it shows up but its an NEJM perspective on the growing number of graduates vs slots. It's from 2015 but it isn't that far off
 
Chibucks15 said:
Yeah but I just feel like that may skew more towards USMGs and they might get squeezed still just because of the amount of DOs that only don't go for the ACGME matching because of the inherent risk involved for them. Plus now that DOs are (should be at least) taking the USMLE, if I was a PD I would feel much better about a USMG then an IMG, unless that person is stellar. The lower admission standards are moving upward, especially at the established schools they're already as high if not higher as some of the lower MDs. With the merger, in order to have their students compete standards will rise (at least ideally) at these schools because there isn't the safety net of the AOA match to cite as to why change isn't needed in rotations and curriculum. It's by no means going to be an overnight change but long term I think it helps to lessen the bias because at least in one large facet of the training there will no longer be a difference. It's a step in the direction towards it all being the same with an elective in OMM which at this point it should be because everything else is the same
Click to expand...

Also grade replacement is now over.
 
Lexdiamondz said:
Furthermore I don't see how it's going to screw IMGs/FMGs any more than the match already does. They're gonna match into the same low-tier ACGME residency slots they always have, nothing new here.
Click to expand...

Honestly if I were an IMG I would be far more concerned with the fact that in 4 years there will be an additional 2000 AMGs in the match than I would be about the merger. Hell I’m a DO student and that fact worries me a lot more than the merger.
 
Chibucks15 said:
MMS: Error

This doesn't seems to agree with that math

EDIT: I don't know if it shows up but its an NEJM perspective on the growing number of graduates vs slots. It's from 2015 but it isn't that far off
Click to expand...
Nice to read, thanks.
 
Of course its safest to say that nobody really knows what'll happen, but no school would ever say that the merger is a bad thing in front of a group of people who are potentially gonna give them hundreds of thousands of dollars for the next 4 years.
 
NontradCA said:
Most of the people I know who are applying to non-competitive fields still skip out on “DO programs”. Do you know why? Because it’s non-competitive. :idea:
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Now they don't have to make that choice. And they have even less chance of SOAPing. Hard to not call the merger a net benefit for those intested in non-competative specialties. Now you don't have to throw out a good chunk of programs, you can compare apples to apples so to speak.
Chibucks15 said:
MMS: Error

This doesn't seems to agree with that math

EDIT: I don't know if it shows up but its an NEJM perspective on the growing number of graduates vs slots. It's from 2015 but it isn't that far off
Click to expand...
In a different thread @hallowmann posted numbers that lead to a similar conclusion (i.e. that the matching slots thing will not be an issue till 2028-2030 for US Grads). But it does feel like COCA has accelerated opening new programs so maybe it will be earlier. Either way, it won't be an issue for people today, but it will become harder and harder to match specialties in general, as basically only primary care is being expanded.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
Now they don't have to make that choice. And they have even less chance of SOAPing. Hard to not call the merger a net benefit for those intested in non-competative specialties. Now you don't have to throw out a good chunk of programs, you can compare apples to apples so to speak.

In a different thread @hallowmann posted numbers that lead to a similar conclusion (i.e. that the matching slots thing will not be an issue till 2028-2030 for US Grads). But it does feel like COCA has accelerated opening new programs so maybe it will be earlier. Either way, it won't be an issue for people today, but it will become harder and harder to match specialties in general, as basically only primary care is being expanded.
Click to expand...
I’m talking about people this cycle not even adding AOA programs, and cancelling DO interviews. Actually, the only people who the merger does benefit are those going into competitive specialties. It’s common sense.
 
NontradCA said:
I’m talking about people this cycle not even adding AOA programs, and cancelling DO interviews. Actually, the only people who the merger does benefit are those going into competitive specialties. It’s common sense.
Click to expand...

How exactly does opening AOA residencies to MD candidates benefit competitive speicialties that DO candidates weren't really placing in anyways? It most obviously benefits the first decile of MD students who were going to struggle to place in a wanted specialty.
 
I’m a DO applying for a fairly competitive specialty this year and I am still a fan of the merger, and wish it would have taken place before this match cycle. There are a ton of logistical nightmares with deciding to drop the DO match, which wont be necessary next year
 
jrlob91 said:
I’m a DO applying for a fairly competitive specialty this year and I am still a fan of the merger, and wish it would have taken place before this match cycle. There are a ton of logistical nightmares with deciding to drop the DO match, which wont be necessary next year
Click to expand...

I can’t even imagine the nightmare of having enough total interviews to match but having hem split between the matches
 
le_purrde said:
I've interviewed at 4 DO schools so far. All of them have mentioned how great the upcoming merger is going to be for DO students. Why? Does anyone really know anything beyond speculation at this point? It seems like to me the only thing DO students might receive from this merger is additional competition into the competitive residencies that were formerly for DO students only.
Click to expand...
Have any of you seen this?

Collaboration Between ACGME and AOA Programs to Enhance Success in the Single Accreditation System: A Process Paper | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association
 
68PGunner said:
There's would a nationwide mutiny among DO students once they realize how badly their class curriculum prepares them for the USMLE. Henceforth, you see these smokes blowing up these applicants' a$$e$.
Click to expand...
 
I'm really tired of all of this complaining about the merger.

If you don't want to go to a DO program based off the insecurity instilled because of the merger... don't go.

Seriously.

Go to the caribbean. Go do nursing or PA or something else.

There's nothing you or anybody can do about it. The merger is well underway and has been.

Or...

You can ... ya know... work hard and try to do your best with what you got available.
 
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