Why are pre-MD students applying DO?

[Clarus]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Why is this the case? I feel like students who have the most competitive GPA and scores should go for the precedent but they don't and puts others, like myself, at a disadvantage when it comes to apps?

 

[BoroPreMed92]

Why is this the case? I feel like students who have the most competitive GPA and scores should go for the precedent but they don't and puts others, like myself, at a disadvantage when it comes to apps?

Because these students want to go to an osteopathic school?

Sent from my SM-N920V using SDN mobile

 

[MeltingIceCube]

Why is this the case? I feel like students who have the most competitive GPA and scores should go for the precedent but they don't and puts others, like myself, at a disadvantage when it comes to apps?

I am applying to both and have ii's for both MD and DO. I understand where you are coming from, however...

1. I believe DO is making the push to not be thought of as 'sub par'. At my DO interviews, there were people there with incredible stats, advanced degrees, unique life stories, and wonderful achievements who were seriously in love with the osteopathic school we were interviewing at on that particular day. I.e. I believe DO schools are beginning to attract the right kind of applicants. Whether or not those applicants matriculate is another story I guess (but I hope all students who interview are serious about the school they are interviewing at). But I don't think that 'competitive' applicants should be viewed in the light you are viewing them and I don't believe that osteopathic schools should remain happy with the stigma of being a safe-haven for those with sub-par applications.

2. Contrary to popular SDN-mantra, much more goes into picking a medical school than simply MD vs. DO. Some examples? Proximity to family/friends, 'fit' (particularly with the mission statement/area), price tag, SO's desires (e.g. does he/she have a job in a particular area that would be hard to find somewhere else?), desired specialty, etc. More importantly, in life, nothing is a sure thing. I know people with great applications who were rejected DO and accepted MD, and vice versa. If your goal is to become a physician (for the RIGHT reasons), it shouldn't matter if it is an MD/DO school. Might a particular path be harder? Sure. But the same can be said for going to a lower tier MD school. If you aren't allergic to hard work, almost all things can be made possible with effort.

Those are my 2 cents.🙂

 

[AlteredScale]

Why is this the case? I feel like students who have the most competitive GPA and scores should go for the precedent but they don't and puts others, like myself, at a disadvantage when it comes to apps?

Applying to MD schools is extremely competitive. You can have a great MCAT and GPA with all the fixings and still get denied. A lot of md applicants will then apply DO as a backup.

There could also be the possibility that now that more students are applying DO and supposedly about 1/4 of med students are DO students that the popularity of going this route is increasing and the AOA is eating it all up by opening the most random DO schools in unnecessary locations (a town of a few thousand doesn't need 150+ med students there).


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[BoroPreMed92]

Applying to MD schools is extremely competitive. You can have a great MCAT and GPA with all the fixings and still get denied. A lot of md applicants will then apply DO as a backup.

There could also be the possibility that now that more students are applying DO and supposedly about 1/4 of med students are DO students that the popularity of going this route is increasing and the AOA is eating it all up by opening the most random DO schools in unnecessary locations (a town of a few thousand doesn't need 150+ med students there).


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

What does your second paragraph have to do with anything related to the question?

Sent from my SM-N920V using SDN mobile

 

[SurgDoc95]

Because "pre-med" is a broad term saying hey I want to be a physician not I only want to become and MD. In terms of putting you at a disadvantage, DO schools are getting more and more competitive each year with average GPAs and MCAT scores going up. Why is this? Because MD programs can be a bit ridiculous when it comes to the stats they require and because DO schools are MEDICAL SCHOOLS! They put physicians into the work place that become a whole variety of specialties and like it or not higher stats generally yield better board scores and competency. Now don't mistake me for saying you need excellent stats to be a physician because that's not always the case, but we are still talking about a profession where your knowledge and ability to think are vital as you have a persons LIFE in your hands. I applaud DO programs for raising their entrance bar and I'm very proud to have been accepted into one and can't wait to become an Osteopathic Physician.

 

[sdhere1234]

Grade. Replacement.

3.7 in AACOMAS =/= 3.7 in AMCAS (for the most part)

 

[DexterMorganSK]

.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[AlteredScale]

What does your second paragraph have to do with anything related to the question?

Sent from my SM-N920V using SDN mobile

It's an alternative answer to the question beyond just saying MD applicants want to apply to DO for back up. Is that alright? Do I have permission to say that?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[AlteredScale]

I was under the impression that schools that are opening in "random locations" is part of a larger plan to draw in future doctors to that particular area. For example, Dothan (ACOM), Lillington (CUSOM), and Cumberland Gap (DeBusk) are all in kinda rural areas. But they also have their mission statements reflect that they wish to keep their future doctors in those areas (at least the state in general). And that's part of the reason that I would love to go to those schools.

However, I do also wish they would open up some more new DO schools in larger cities as well as there are huge pros for doing such.

Many of these schools that are private DO programs have no real incentive to keep their grads in the area. Obviously they do in fact keep a good amount but you would think having a smaller state funded DO program that is truly dedicated to keeping their grads in the area would be a better idea. I'm thinking more the likes of OUHCOM which has done a marvelous job of that service.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[MarshMedic]

Many of these schools that are private DO programs have no real incentive to keep their grads in the area. Obviously they do in fact keep a good amount but you would think having a smaller state funded DO program that is truly dedicated to keeping their grads in the area would be a better idea. I'm thinking more the likes of OUHCOM which has done a marvelous job of that service.

I do find it odd that some school's whole focus is on PCP/rural PCP and they don't offer anything like tuition remission, 3-yr PCP programs, or scholarships while simultaneously charging the highest tuition rates in medicine.

 

[rossatron7]

I do find it odd that some school's whole focus is on PCP/rural PCP and they don't offer anything like tuition remission, 3-yr PCP programs, or scholarships while simultaneously charging the highest tuition rates in medicine.

There's already the National Health Service Corps Loan Repayment Program for those interested in primary care in underserved populations.

 

[Wjldenver]

I think you can make an inference here based upon what Altered Scale originally posted. More students are applying to DO schools since there is more name recognition based upon all of the new schools which are opening in various states. (Besides the fact that DO schools are a recognized backup plan if you don't have the stats to get into a MD program.) But you also need to look at things from a supply and demand perspective. Accelerated DO school openings in various random locations will eventually lead to a plethora of DO grads competing for residencies with MD grads in a static residency market. Refer to the "Whoot Whoot" threads in the osteopathic forum to keep up with all of the new DO school openings. Sometimes it seems to be never ending.

 

[AlteredScale]

Ahh, that is true. I didn't think about them not being publicly funded. However for ACOM, I do know that they worked with local government and hospitals for around 10+ years trying to establish new clinical sites and residency programs in Alabama. It was kinda confusing to me when I heard the presentation, but basically some of the guys who started ACOM were working behind the scenes at other schools/hospitals and pushing health politics trying to attract future physicians into the area.

However, you're totally right about them being private entities, and therefore the state has no official ties/incentive for them to be there. Excellent point.

Oh yeah for sure. I think acom has done an excellent job. At the end of the day I don't mean to just bash DOs I just think that there are facets that can be improved upon of course!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[redsox93]

I'm applying to both DO and MD and consider my self a relatively average MD applicant. Your question states you're worried that people with better stats have a better chance at acceptance and puts you at a disadvantage? That's just the way the process works. With how competitive MD admission is I'm not risking taking a year off just so other applicants get a better chance...

 

[laurenlee3]

Going the osteopathic route is not simply the easier, lesser option. Some people truly prefer the DO philosophy/mentality. If someone with high stats applies DO, it's probably not because they think it will be easier or that they can't get into MD, but rather they sincerely want to go to osteopathic school.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

What kind of people actually think about stuff like this and in this way lol?

 

[Ho0v-man]

Because they want to be doctors...

To add to the rest of the conversation, I don't think anyone is a fan of most of these new DO schools. Two DO schools in Alabama with a grand total of 4-5 community based residencies between them isn't helping rural Alabama one bit. People stay where they do residency, not where they study for two years and move away from. Especially when half the class is probably from the west coast in the first place.

I'm all about there being a medical degree that focuses on rural medicine and helping underserved communities and I think it's great that there's a focus on it. But without school affiliated gme, there's legitimately no reason to think that these students will practice in these areas. Heck, they probably set up shop where they do because the cost to build the school is cheap.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Goro]

o/10 trolling job. In my day, trolls were trolls. You actually had to work at being a troll!

Why is this the case? I feel like students who have the most competitive GPA and scores should go for the precedent but they don't and puts others, like myself, at a disadvantage when it comes to apps?

 

[Goro]

It's OK. We know that people do this and don't take it personally.

It's an alternative answer to the question beyond just saying MD applicants want to apply to DO for back up. Is that alright? Do I have permission to say that?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[SurgDoc95]

In all honesty OP this kind of a post is either 1) a troll post or 2) a post that you really shouldn't make

 

[Clarus]

o/10 trolling job. In my day, trolls were trolls. You actually had to work at being a troll!

What happened to "There's no such thing as a stupid question?" My apologies if I offended any of you but that's not reason to try and **** on me or just that mindset in general. I was just curious to as to why someone would pick one thing over the other. There just two different types of apples, but ultimately apples at the end of the day.

 

[Clarus]

In all honesty OP this kind of a post is either 1) a troll post or 2) a post that you really shouldn't make

So SDN is basically a place for no one outside the "popular voice" to have an opinion? I can see why a fair amount of people don't use this website, but I'm not trying to start a flame war on here. Just was curious about different opinions and was just blurting a random thought I had.

 

[deleted610572]

Because they want to be doctors...

To add to the rest of the conversation, I don't think anyone is a fan of most of these new DO schools. Two DO schools in Alabama with a grand total of 4-5 community based residencies between them isn't helping rural Alabama one bit. People stay where they do residency, not where they study for two years and move away from. Especially when half the class is probably from the west coast in the first place.

I'm all about there being a medical degree that focuses on rural medicine and helping underserved communities and I think it's great that there's a focus on it. But without school affiliated gme, there's legitimately no reason to think that these students will practice in these areas. Heck, they probably set up shop where they do because the cost to build the school is cheap.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

ACOM is working on those rural PC residencies. They're starting up 11 general internal and family's med residencies across the state. I agree that they should do other specialties but they are trying to get rural pcp in alabama.

 

[Ho0v-man]

ACOM is working on those rural PC residencies. They're starting up 11 general internal and family's med residencies across the state. I agree that they should do other specialties but they are trying to get rural pcp in alabama.

And that's great. Not trying to crap on acom. I just think students should at least have the option to do all of their mandatory core rotations through a school affiliated residency and that those should be available for the first third years. There should be some standardization in the stuff you are required to do. I could keep ranting, but this is already way off topic.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Goro]

Sometimes, stupid questions DO exist, and we at SDN do not suffer fools lightly, either.

What happened to "There's no such thing as a stupid question?" My apologies if I offended any of you but that's not reason to try and **** on me or just that mindset in general. I was just curious to as to why someone would pick one thing over the other. There just two different types of apples, but ultimately apples at the end of the day.

 

[BeachBlondie]

I'd like to just weigh in here to answer OP's question, even though this thread seems to be singing its death knell...

*leans into mic* Because it's hard to get into medical school.

Based on your post history, I think it's safe to say that you haven't been through an application cycle yet. And that's fine -- we were all making posts based on theoretics at some point in our journey. But, when you go through the gauntlet, you'll begin to quickly realize that there are 10,000 applicants applying for a school with 100-200 seats... at osteopathic schools -- allo schools often boast even steeper differentials. And let me tell you something right now: we. all. look. exactly. the same.

Really? The only people concerned with "DO" vs. "MD" are pre-meds. The patients don't care, your colleagues don't care, the allied staff doesn't care. You're a doctor -- do you know your stuff? Yes? Great. If not, it doesn't matter what the initials on your coat are, people will hate working with you.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. If you get in ANYWHERE you should be praising the merciful heavens because there are 8,000+ people who may not have even interviewed at that particular school.

You'll see..... oh, you'll see.

 

[SurgDoc95]

I'd like to just weigh in here to answer OP's question, even though this thread seems to be singing its death knell....

*leans into mic* Because it's hard to get into medical school..

Based on your post history, I think it's safe to say that you haven't been through an application cycle yet. And that's fine -- we were all making posts based on theoretics at some point in our journey. But, when you go through the gauntlet, you'll begin to quickly realize that there are 10,000 applicants applying for a school with 100-200 seats... at osteopathic schools -- allo schools often boast even steeper differentials. And let me tell you something right now: we. all. look. exactly. the same.

Really? The only people concerned with "DO" vs. "MD" are pre-meds. The patients don't care, your colleagues don't care, the allied staff doesn't care. You're a doctor -- do you know your stuff? Yes? Great. If not, it doesn't matter what the initials on your coat are, people will hate working with you.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. If you get in ANYWHERE you should be praising the merciful heavens because there are 8,000+ people who may not have even interviewed at that particular school.

You'll see..... oh, you'll see..

Couldn't agree more! Bravo[emoji1376]

 

[Scrubs101]

As you can tell OP the application cycle has broken all of us, youre probably gonna get a bunch of responses from pissed off current applicants because at this point in the cycle most of us are just waiting around going between checking our emails and checking SDN 24/7.

Applying to med school is no fun, applying broadly is important. Nobody wants to have to go through this more than they have to, so ultimately we're all happy to get into ANY school


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Petrichor1]

Because at the end of the day, both md/do create physicians? And not everyone has a wad of money lying around in case the first cycle doesn't work out applying all MD. Sorry not sorry, this process is muy expensivo, not to mention the trouble of asking again for your recommenders to change the dates to their letters to seem more updated! We can't deny that this process isn't wholly merit and a lot of your luck is dependent on chance after your stats check out.

 

[Clarus]

I'd like to just weigh in here to answer OP's question, even though this thread seems to be singing its death knell....

*leans into mic* Because it's hard to get into medical school..

Based on your post history, I think it's safe to say that you haven't been through an application cycle yet. And that's fine -- we were all making posts based on theoretics at some point in our journey. But, when you go through the gauntlet, you'll begin to quickly realize that there are 10,000 applicants applying for a school with 100-200 seats... at osteopathic schools -- allo schools often boast even steeper differentials. And let me tell you something right now: we. all. look. exactly. the same.

Really? The only people concerned with "DO" vs. "MD" are pre-meds. The patients don't care, your colleagues don't care, the allied staff doesn't care. You're a doctor -- do you know your stuff? Yes? Great. If not, it doesn't matter what the initials on your coat are, people will hate working with you.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. If you get in ANYWHERE you should be praising the merciful heavens because there are 8,000+ people who may not have even interviewed at that particular school.

You'll see..... oh, you'll see..

I totally agree with you on this but there's one thing that crosses my mind. So is there a stigma in being a foreign medical grad? It seems like a double standard because I've been hearing all sorts of things from people.

 

[Clarus]

Because at the end of the day, both md/do create physicians? And not everyone has a wad of money lying around in case the first cycle doesn't work out applying all MD. Sorry not sorry, this process is muy expensivo, not to mention the trouble of asking again for your recommenders to change the dates to their letters to seem more updated! We can't deny that this process isn't wholly merit and a lot of your luck is dependent on chance after your stats check out.

Is it true that being a DO "limits" you on what specialty you want to be? Especially the most competitive? I'm sure it's just a myth but there is probably some reality and ground truth to the situation, not that I'd like to believe it.

 

[AlteredScale]

Is it true that being a DO "limits" you on what specialty you want to be? Especially the most competitive? I'm sure it's just a myth but there is probably some reality and ground truth to the situation, not that I'd like to believe it.

Yes, especially the surgical subspecialties and academic IM.


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app

 

[Goro]

Successful med school candidates need to learn how to use "search" functions.

Is it true that being a DO "limits" you on what specialty you want to be? Especially the most competitive? I'm sure it's just a myth but there is probably some reality and ground truth to the situation, not that I'd like to believe it.

 

[BeachBlondie]

I totally agree with you on this but there's one thing that crosses my mind. So is there a stigma in being a foreign medical grad? It seems like a double standard because I've been hearing all sorts of things from people. ...

I don't know what you mean by "double standard" -- you're comparing US medical school to off-shore (read: Caribbean), ITT Tech medical school. The lines demarcating DO vs. MD will be further blurred in 2020 when residency merges. But, I'm going to go ahead and refer to @Goro on this point.

But, if you want to know why off-shore schools are a bad decision, there are plenty of blogs from IMG students, threads, and warnings on the internets.

 

[BeachBlondie]

Is it true that being a DO "limits" you on what specialty you want to be? Especially the most competitive? I'm sure it's just a myth but there is probably some reality and ground truth to the situation, not that I'd like to believe it.

Does it make it more difficult? Sure. But do I know DOs who are orthopaedic surgeons (having done their fellowships at MGH, even), neurosurgeons, and rads? Yes. A stand-out applicant is a stand-out applicant.

 

[SilveoDante]

Does it make it more difficult? Sure. But do I know DOs who are orthopaedic surgeons (having done their fellowships at MGH, even), neurosurgeons, and rads? Yes. A stand-out applicant is a stand-out applicant.

I love your posts!

And to add to that...it's not exactly 'easy' for MD's.

Since we are going down this road, I was wondering if any of you would be willing to answer a few questions for me?
1. What is the difference between a doctor and a nurse?
2. Why is water clear when it really looks blue when I'm looking at it from the beach?
3. Why do I want to go to medical school?
4. How many resigns = too many resigns?
5. Is a tree stump still a tree stump if you sit on it? Or does it become a chair once one's rear-end caresses the bark? No offense, but I would appreciate it if only metaphysicians answered this particular question. (*noise in the background of keyboards being pounded*) "What is a metaphysician? I've never heard of that. How long is the residency? Salary? Is it better than PM&R in terms of lifestyle?"

 

[BeachBlondie]

I love your posts!

And to add to that...it's not exactly 'easy' for MD's.

Since we are going down this road, I was wondering if any of you would be willing to answer a few questions for me?
1. What is the difference between a doctor and a nurse?
2. Why is water clear when it really looks blue when I'm looking at it from the beach?
3. Why do I want to go to medical school?
4. How many resigns = too many resigns?
5. Is a tree stump still a tree stump if you sit on it? Or does it become a chair once one's rear-end caresses the bark? No offense, but I would appreciate it if only metaphysicians answered this particular question. (*noise in the background of keyboards being pounded*) "What is a metaphysician? I've never heard of that. How long is the residency? Salary? Is it better than PM&R in terms of lifestyle?"

BAHAAHAHHAHAHA!

 

[Petrichor1]

Is it true that being a DO "limits" you on what specialty you want to be? Especially the most competitive? I'm sure it's just a myth but there is probably some reality and ground truth to the situation, not that I'd like to believe it.

Yes this is true but what is more important and something noone thinks as premed is pick schools that have their own residencies in these specialized fields. This way you have much higher chance of getting into these fields esp from the DO side. I have myself deliberated this but I feel that if you go into primary care, your chances of subspecialty are still there to make you feel adequate. Surgery is still too far away to be set on for sure in my opinion and if you are too concerned then try going into more established DO programs like PCOM that basically match you into every field across the board. Beyond that even if you attend an up and coming school, as long as faculty and administration are top notch and you do really well on boards, you are bound to have opportunities that will lead you towards your ultimate destination. That's just my opinion. A learned administration can weigh in.

 

[SilveoDante]

Yes this is true but what is more important and something noone thinks as premed is pick schools that have their own residencies in these specialized fields. This way you have much higher chance of getting into these fields esp from the DO side. I have myself deliberated this but I feel that if you go into primary care, your chances of subspecialty are still there to make you feel adequate. Surgery is still too far away to be set on for sure in my opinion and if you are too concerned then try going into more established DO programs like PCOM that basically match you into every field across the board. Beyond that even if you attend an up and coming school, as long as faculty and administration are top notch and you do really well on boards, you are bound to have opportunities that will lead you towards your ultimate destination. That's just my opinion. A learned administration can weigh in.

There are DO's who "outmatch" MD's every year, and vice versa. For some reason, everyone wants what's easiest. Hard truth: you are going to have to bust tail either way. My old roommate, before starting medical school, was set on becoming a neurosurgeon. He is now in FM residency in the boonies down south (horrible board scores). Just because he went MD didn't mean automatic success.

*If you want it, you will get it if you work hard enough*. It's that simple.

I can't believe the bickering that goes on over a profession that is supposed to be about helping people. MD/DO:
-Same pay
-Same privileges
-Same specialties
-Same outfit
-Same title (DOCTOR)

"Well, the average MCAT score and GPA is lower on the DO-side of the table!". Grow up. I forget the exact statistics, but 2/3 of MD student's parents make over 150K and nearly the same quantity have at least one parent as a physician. A lot more goes into becoming a doctor than MCAT and GPA, and both of the aforementioned have lots to do with SES and accompanying opportunities. I know FAR too many knuckleheads who got an MD acceptance for reasons other than merit to consider MD>DO (especially since Caribbean gets an MD).

That is my rant for the day. I apologize. But for those of you going the DO route either by choice or by force, just know that this 'stigma' doesn't exist in the real world (i.e. in the clinic or the hospital). You are a physician and your colleagues, patients, and fellow staff members will treat you as such. You will find DO's as presidents, chiefs, etc. People may be willing to be elitists behind their computer screens, but that's usually as far as it goes. And if it doesn't stop there, that person isn't worth your time to begin with.

Be thankful that you have an opportunity to become a doctor and run with it.

 

[LutGholein]

OP because in all honesty the way things are going-- the way admissions is going-- 5-10 years down the line it'll all probably mesh... the rise in quality of applicants and the competition associated with this will give rise to what we are beginning to see-- it's indistingiusble.

Outside of these forum nobody more or less cares what initials you have attached to your badge-- what will be of importance is how you treat patients-- how you connect with patients-- can you bridge that trust? As someone who applied and got into both MD/DO programs....I sense this debate become more and more inconsequential throughout the years. The crucibles you have to go through to just get here-- in the application phase-- is tremendous. This explains why most of us think applying to ANY US medical school is a shot in the dark.

 

[Petrichor1]

Half a decade ago I chose to go to my alma mater because of the name brand and prestige over my state school that didn't have all the nicer badges as I supposed at that wee little age. By the time I graduated, I had a respectable gpa but nowhere near what was in my potential because I had a very difficult path in attending the uni (ie., financial, atmosphere). I also didn't get to enjoy my time so much. In the circumstances, I kept giving myself empty promises that the prestige will make up. I love my alma but looking back, by time I had graduated the state school had turned upside down. The resources are now far far better. Students are more prepared and competitive. Yea they might have some ways to mature but the stats are stellar due to excellent teaching.
No matter how I dress my degree at the end of the day, I am only as smart as I am prepared through the system. My point is that you should pick places for potential and not the name. Having the foresight based on my experience I am not hesitant as much now as opposed to my past in choosing a place with less established names solely because I trust the accrediting body that makes these medical schools work hard in maintaining their accreditation. Additionally, academia is a long road. If you're itching for the name brand, eventually even after residency you are welcome to try your chance at them. Half of life is about knowing ppl and you will continue to have ppl that will recommend you when your time comes.

 

[Goro]

OP needs to learn how to use the search function, so I don't want to enable him any further.

I don't know what you mean by "double standard" -- you're comparing US medical school to off-shore (read: Caribbean), ITT Tech medical school. The lines demarcating DO vs. MD will be further blurred in 2020 when residency merges. But, I'm going to go ahead and refer to @Goro on this point.

But, if you want to know why off-shore schools are a bad decision, there are plenty of blogs from IMG students, threads, and warnings on the internets.

 

[lnguyen1412]

Imagine DO schools and AOA started first before MD back in history... Probably the question of OP will be reversed to. : "Why Pre-Med going to MD rather DO?" Haha

@Ho0v-man I think ACOM also started new IM residency this year. They plan to open more Primary care residency. Also. They got sponsored by blue cross/ blue shield to give students 3rd/4th year free tuition if they committed to practice primary care in Alabama.

 

[BeachBlondie]

OP needs to learn how to use the search function, so I don't want to enable him any further.

Goro, with all due respect, you know very well that is something adult people do. We, on SDN, are but a gaggle of children...