Why aren't there more seats in medical schools?

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btower12

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I have a question about the medical industry, especially for those representing medical schools.

Medical schools say that you shouldn't go into medicine for the money right? How can they explain why there are so few seats in medical schools? There is definitely much more qualified applicants than will be accepted. What would be the harm of adding more seats? There would be more doctors, which would mean faster and cheaper healthcare. The only harm would be their salaries.

As it seems to me, this is a money issue.
 
almost every problem is a money issue :O
 
Don't medical schools lose money by training students too?
 
You bring up a very valid point. Medical schools are actually scaling up in size fairly rapidly right now, and several new ones are opening, but the federal government has not kept pace with residency funding. Why we let the federal government finance residencies is beyond me. I'm guessing someone early on discovered the possibility of free money, and didn't predict that Congress may not allow funding to keep pace with demand.

But yes, there is an artificial doctor shortage. That's partially why the wages outside of primary care are so high. It's certainly a problem that needs to be solved.
 
There is also the concern that the quality of training can go down if there are too many medical schools/residencies.

There's a reason a lot of schools hesitate to expand their medical school classes. Some medical school's already have trouble finding slots for their medical students to rotate in, others are losing spots to Caribbean schools willing to pay for slots. Opening a new school is incredibly expensive and requires a very lengthy and difficult accreditation process.

The last thing the medical industry wants is to be oversaturated with graduates like what happened to law and what is happening to fields like vet/dental/pharm. I do think there is legitimate concern for that, but I also agree that there is still a bunch of wiggle room left.
 
There is also the concern that the quality of training can go down if there are too many medical schools/residencies.

There's a reason a lot of schools hesitate to expand their medical school classes. Some medical school's already have trouble finding slots for their medical students to rotate in, others are losing spots to Caribbean schools willing to pay for slots. Opening a new school is incredibly expensive and requires a very lengthy and difficult accreditation process.

The last thing the medical industry wants is to be oversaturated with graduates like what happened to law and what is happening to fields like vet/dental/pharm. I do think there is legitimate concern for that, but I also agree that there is still a bunch of wiggle room left.

I disagree as my detailed premed analysis has determined that there is solely a monetary aspect because doctors are avaricious and self-serving and as I am altruistic beyond the understanding of your typical doctor, there should be enough seats to guarantee a spot for my becoming a physician
 
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Here's how the feds ended up paying for residency slots. Teaching hospitals said, "it costs us more to provide patient care -- and the care is better-- because we have residents on the hospital payroll that provide round the clock care to patients. Ergo, our reimbursement for Medicare services should be higher than that of hospitals without residencies." And so it happened but eventually the amount was capped meaning that if a hospital adds more residents it won't get the money from the federal government to pay their salaries & benefits.
 
Medical Schools are free to expand but they have to spend a ton of money (more than you pay in Tuition, believe it or not) to train medical students. The same goes for residents. The hard cap on residency slots isn't really a deal with the devil. It is very expensive to train residents. If we want more doctors we need an expansion of residency slots and this would be very expensive. As it stands, the American people do not feel compelled to further fund medical education (or education in general, but the evidence I'm referring to is burgeoning medical school debt). If such an incentive from the government did not exist then hospitals would most likely charge tuition for residency as the hospital's incentive would be to try to equalize on their very expensive money pits (medical residents).

Once upon a time residents were paid close to nothing (even relative to the general population) and lived at the hospital, their living expenses covered by the hospital of course. Residency hour restrictions did not exist at the time. "No one complained about money as there was no time to spend it in. It was hard times but it was the best of times" writes one physician of this period, a long time ago. If we were to increase residency slots without an increase in funding for medical education (I.e Medicare reimbursements to pay for residents) then there would have to be a subsequent cut to residency pay, an increase to residency length, and a shortening of the resident work week.

Cut in pay is obvious, you mentioned it already.

Why do I say an increase in length and shortening of the resident work week? Well think about having more residents. It is one thing to say that new hospitals open residencies all over the country but the realistic scenario is that existing teaching hospitals also increase their slots. Residents need a lot of exposure to medicine in order to reach attending-level expertise. If you have more residents in your program and they all need to work but you only have a finite amount of work time (learning time) in the week then you every resident works less hours but the overall training length is increased. That, or a number of beds is added to the hospital which will accommodate for more working bodies on the floor. I doubt every teaching hospital could afford such an arrangement so I imagine most would take the former route.

What I'm saying is not far fetched, I am describing something akin to the NHS training path way in the UK. "Residency" is much longer in the Uk because work hours are much shorter for every "resident" (junior doctor over there).

Thus if you have a finite amount of work to be done, no reimbursement from the government to increase residency slots, and you increase medical school seats:

- Residencies need to start charging tuition or cut resident pay (or both) to offset training costs.
- Medical Schools need to increase tuition to afford having more seats since no reimbursement is coming from the Fed for increased training.
- Residency work week shortens, training pathways lengthen.

There would also be another interesting consequence. With the supply of physicians on the rise, salaries would drop for those who are salaried. Current attendings would probably work more hours, depending on the cut in pay, to maintain their current lifestyle. Especially younger attendings with a lot of medical school debt. Taking on a bigger workload to maintain their pay reduces the need for more bodies to be hired, which is a bigger expense, and you have residents graduating without a job. Given that there is a maldistribution of physicians - and not a shortage - highly desirable work areas would become more competitive than they already are young, indebted attendings would most likely be forced to the boonies. Overall, bad things for those already out of the training pathway.


Tl;dr: If the American people don't want to pay for it then it sure as hell isn't happening (barring "it" is not funding for the military).


Someone please fact check me I wrote this very quickly on my phone but I think it's sound.
 
Medical Schools are free to expand but they have to spend a ton of money (more than you pay in Tuition, believe it or not) to train medical students. The same goes for residents. The hard cap on residency slots isn't really a deal with the devil. It is very expensive to train residents. If we want more doctors we need an expansion of residency slots and this would be very expensive. As it stands, the American people do not feel compelled to further fund medical education (or education in general, but the evidence I'm referring to is burgeoning medical school debt). If such an incentive from the government did not exist then hospitals would most likely charge tuition for residency as the hospital's incentive would be to try to equalize on their very expensive money pits (medical residents).

Once upon a time residents were paid close to nothing (even relative to the general population) and lived at the hospital, their living expenses covered by the hospital of course. Residency hour restrictions did not exist at the time. "No one complained about money as there was no time to spend it in. It was hard times but it was the best of times" writes one physician of this period, a long time ago. If we were to increase residency slots without an increase in funding for medical education (I.e Medicare reimbursements to pay for residents) then there would have to be a subsequent cut to residency pay, an increase to residency length, and a shortening of the resident work week.

Cut in pay is obvious, you mentioned it already.

Why do I say an increase in length and shortening of the resident work week? Well think about having more residents. It is one thing to say that new hospitals open residencies all over the country but the realistic scenario is that existing teaching hospitals also increase their slots. Residents need a lot of exposure to medicine in order to reach attending-level expertise. If you have more residents in your program and they all need to work but you only have a finite amount of work time (learning time) in the week then you every resident works less hours but the overall training length is increased. That, or a number of beds is added to the hospital which will accommodate for more working bodies on the floor. I doubt every teaching hospital could afford such an arrangement so I imagine most would take the former route.

What I'm saying is not far fetched, I am describing something akin to the NHS training path way in the UK. "Residency" is much longer in the Uk because work hours are much shorter for every "resident" (junior doctor over there).

Thus if you have a finite amount of work to be done, no reimbursement from the government to increase residency slots, and you increase medical school seats:

- Residencies need to start charging tuition or cut resident pay (or both) to offset training costs.
- Medical Schools need to increase tuition to afford having more seats since no reimbursement is coming from the Fed for increased training.
- Residency work week shortens, training pathways lengthen.

There would also be another interesting consequence. With the supply of physicians on the rise, salaries would drop for those who are salaried. Current attendings would probably work more hours, depending on the cut in pay, to maintain their current lifestyle. Especially younger attendings with a lot of medical school debt. Taking on a bigger workload to maintain their pay reduces the need for more bodies to be hired, which is a bigger expense, and you have residents graduating without a job. Given that there is a maldistribution of physicians - and not a shortage - highly desirable work areas would become more competitive than they already are young, indebted attendings would most likely be forced to the boonies. Overall, bad things for those already out of the training pathway.


Tl;dr: If the American people don't want to pay for it then it sure as hell isn't happening (barring "it" is not funding for the military).


Someone please fact check me I wrote this very quickly on my phone but I think it's sound.

Overall a very good summary.

The only two criticisms I would have:

1) Residencies have continued to expand, in spite of the funding cap. They do so without a concomitant increase in funding:

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This suggests that the economics are not quite as simple, since programs are adding un/under-funded positions.

2.) The argument over how much residents "cost" the hospital is a tough one. There are two lines of funding - direct GME funds, intended to support the resident's salary and direct costs of training (like support staff, PD salary, etc). DME funds are probably actually shorting programs a good amount as the administrative costs have ballooned significantly over time and the cost estimates are outdated. But it is also probably reasonable that they are shorting hospitals somewhat on this...because I don't think the intent was ever for residents to be a "free" 100% government paid-for workforce.

The other line of funding is indirect GME funds. This is administered by adjusting the hospital's DRG payments for each Medicare patient. The rationale for this is that resident care is less efficient - they order more labs, order more tests, etc. So if Medicare didn't reimburse more for this, the hospital would lose money by not being reimbursed for tests and whatnot that cost them money to administer. There have been a number of policy papers suggesting that IME over-compensates hospitals by a significant degree. Therefore hospitals use the IME funding to supplement their financial bottom line rather than purely offset the costs of training.

This is why hospitals can afford to add more slots over cap - because they are already being over-subsidized for the residents they do have, and residents are a subsidized labor force that work a lot of hours.

The other problem is that all the funds (direct and indirect) just go to the hospital directly, and how they get spread around the institution is kind of a nebulous black box. It's not like my surgery department gets the money directly from medicare and then uses it for my salary. The institution gets XXX dollars from medicare and decides how they want to parcel it out.
 
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Medical Schools are free to expand but they have to spend a ton of money (more than you pay in Tuition, believe it or not) to train medical students. The same goes for residents. The hard cap on residency slots isn't really a deal with the devil. It is very expensive to train residents. If we want more doctors we need an expansion of residency slots and this would be very expensive. As it stands, the American people do not feel compelled to further fund medical education (or education in general, but the evidence I'm referring to is burgeoning medical school debt). If such an incentive from the government did not exist then hospitals would most likely charge tuition for residency as the hospital's incentive would be to try to equalize on their very expensive money pits (medical residents).

Once upon a time residents were paid close to nothing (even relative to the general population) and lived at the hospital, their living expenses covered by the hospital of course. Residency hour restrictions did not exist at the time. "No one complained about money as there was no time to spend it in. It was hard times but it was the best of times" writes one physician of this period, a long time ago. If we were to increase residency slots without an increase in funding for medical education (I.e Medicare reimbursements to pay for residents) then there would have to be a subsequent cut to residency pay, an increase to residency length, and a shortening of the resident work week.

Cut in pay is obvious, you mentioned it already.

Why do I say an increase in length and shortening of the resident work week? Well think about having more residents. It is one thing to say that new hospitals open residencies all over the country but the realistic scenario is that existing teaching hospitals also increase their slots. Residents need a lot of exposure to medicine in order to reach attending-level expertise. If you have more residents in your program and they all need to work but you only have a finite amount of work time (learning time) in the week then you every resident works less hours but the overall training length is increased. That, or a number of beds is added to the hospital which will accommodate for more working bodies on the floor. I doubt every teaching hospital could afford such an arrangement so I imagine most would take the former route.

What I'm saying is not far fetched, I am describing something akin to the NHS training path way in the UK. "Residency" is much longer in the Uk because work hours are much shorter for every "resident" (junior doctor over there).

Thus if you have a finite amount of work to be done, no reimbursement from the government to increase residency slots, and you increase medical school seats:

- Residencies need to start charging tuition or cut resident pay (or both) to offset training costs.
- Medical Schools need to increase tuition to afford having more seats since no reimbursement is coming from the Fed for increased training.
- Residency work week shortens, training pathways lengthen.

There would also be another interesting consequence. With the supply of physicians on the rise, salaries would drop for those who are salaried. Current attendings would probably work more hours, depending on the cut in pay, to maintain their current lifestyle. Especially younger attendings with a lot of medical school debt. Taking on a bigger workload to maintain their pay reduces the need for more bodies to be hired, which is a bigger expense, and you have residents graduating without a job. Given that there is a maldistribution of physicians - and not a shortage - highly desirable work areas would become more competitive than they already are young, indebted attendings would most likely be forced to the boonies. Overall, bad things for those already out of the training pathway.


Tl;dr: If the American people don't want to pay for it then it sure as hell isn't happening (barring "it" is not funding for the military).


Someone please fact check me I wrote this very quickly on my phone but I think it's sound.

The "cost" of resident training is somewhat dubious, especially at large academic centers that have a huge house staff. I'm too lazy to dig it up, but there's a great NEJM article that discusses the economics of resident training, and in their analysis the tl;dr is that it's the academic centers that need the residents to continue their level of operations more than anything. It's difficult to appreciate, but at many centers, it's residents that are running the day-to-day business of managing patients (surgical specialties are a different thing altogether, but even then having interns managing patients on the floor frees up attendings to focus on doing cases rather than managing relatively simple issues pre- or post-op). Obviously attendings still come in and teach, correct mistakes, etc., but if all residents were to simply not show up one day to a big academic center one day, the **** would hit the fan. Residents can't bill for services since they're trainees, but make no mistake - depending on the resident's seniority and their skill level, attending interactions on more "mediciney" services can be little more than cosigning the note for billing purposes.

I'm not sure if this is limited just to psychiatry - I doubt that it is - but in the last year of residency, most programs offer as an elective or require a month or two on service as a junior attending. In that role, you ARE running the service - there is no attending above you, though obviously you can consult with attendings as needed. I simply don't buy that residents "cost" hospitals money in the aggregate. Interns, PGY-2s, sure. But more experienced residents? Doubtful. Take away the labor of the house staff and see what the productivity of the hospital would be without that labor or what the cost would be if they had to replace those positions at the cost of attending physicians. Sure, they wouldn't have to hire as many attendings, but the cost difference in salaries is substantial; one attending salary may be the equivalent of 2-4 (or more) residents, depending upon experience and field. Even PAs/NPs will cost nearly double that of a resident. And by the way, in the hospital setting PAs/NPs essentially operate at the level of a more senior resident. And yet hospitals are hiring those advanced midlevel practitioners like they're going out of style.
 
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There would also be another interesting consequence. With the supply of physicians on the rise, salaries would drop for those who are salaried. Current attendings would probably work more hours, depending on the cut in pay, to maintain their current lifestyle. Especially younger attendings with a lot of medical school debt. Taking on a bigger workload to maintain their pay reduces the need for more bodies to be hired, which is a bigger expense, and you have residents graduating without a job. Given that there is a maldistribution of physicians - and not a shortage - highly desirable work areas would become more competitive than they already are young, indebted attendings would most likely be forced to the boonies. Overall, bad things for those already out of the training pathway.

we already have that to somewhat of an extent, though not this extreme. Keep in mind it's possible to have both a physician oversupply and a physician shortage. No one is forced to the boonies, but as someone who has been looking at jobs in multiple cities, working downtown Boston or Chicago doesn't come close to paying what I'd get at a (admittedly very nice) surburban hospital in both markets, in some cases by a factor of nearly 2.
 
I think if you took away all government subsidization, they definitely would cost hospitals money. There are real costs of training on top of salaries, and I think any attending on this forum would tell you that supervising residents is usually additional work and if they "just" had to take care of the patients themselves it would take less time and effort. After all, private/non-teaching hospitals somehow survive without all this resident labor.

But given the heavy subsidization, and the fact that so many big academic centers are willing to go "over-cap" - I agree in aggregate they can't be costing hospitals.

Don't disagree with you there, but I think the distinction between non-teaching hospitals and teaching hospitals is that the former has setup with the understanding that that additional labor will be accessible and in place. And I agree that supervising residents is additional work even if that amount of clinical work that might have to be done above and beyond the work of the residents is minimal.

Not trying to badger, but just curious - what are these costs? Things related to residency administration? Travel funding? Research costs?
 
we already have that to somewhat of an extent, though not this extreme. Keep in mind it's possible to have both a physician oversupply and a physician shortage. No one is forced to the boonies, but as someone who has been looking at jobs in multiple cities, working downtown Boston or Chicago doesn't come close to paying what I'd get at a (admittedly very nice) surburban hospital in both markets, in some cases by a factor of nearly 2.

This to me is the real problem with the "physician shortage." More than anything it seems to me to be a distribution problem rather than a true supply problem. That said, the US does have lower per capita physician numbers than the holy grail of many European countries, but that's assuming that you accept that more is always better and those numbers are something to strive for. I simply don't know.
 
Here is an article I read a while back that tries to do a department level accounting of the cost:

http://www.jsurged.org/article/S1931-7204(10)00176-5/abstract

Basically personnel (Program coordinator and other office staff), administration overhead (books, computers, sim lab supplies, etc), recruitment costs (interview days and interview dinners), educational conference costs, and yes research travel funding was a big one.

Awesome, thanks for the link - will definitely look this over.
 
My question is this: If residency funding is capped and available positions are increasing slowly, why has the AAMC called for an increase in medical student training via new schools and larger class sizes? Do they expect the number of residencies available to increase commensurately? Is it a tactic to pressure for higher GME funding? If not, why would they intentionally worsen a bottleneck?
 
My question is this: If residency funding is capped and available positions are increasing slowly, why has the AAMC called for an increase in medical student training via new schools and larger class sizes? Do they expect the number of residencies available to increase commensurately? Is it a tactic to pressure for higher GME funding? If not, why would they intentionally worsen a bottleneck?
There are still more residencies than US med school graduates but the gap is narrowing. The excess residency slots go to graduates of off-shore schools and to physicians trained abroad, many of whom were licenced physicians in their home countries before immigrating to the US. A US (or Canandian) residency is needed to be licenced in the US.
 
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I think if you took away all government subsidization, they definitely would cost hospitals money. There are real costs of training on top of salaries, and I think any attending on this forum would tell you that supervising residents is usually additional work and if they "just" had to take care of the patients themselves it would take less time and effort. After all, private/non-teaching hospitals somehow survive without all this resident labor.

But given the heavy subsidization, and the fact that so many big academic centers are willing to go "over-cap" - I agree in aggregate they can't be costing hospitals.

I certainly won't pretend to be able to talk about all residencies, but at least at our institution...

We save the hospital money. Our labor is directly replaceable by PAs/NPs. So much so that when there is a shortage of man-power, they hire PAs/NPs and when we have added residency spots the PAs/NPs drop in number. They function somewhat like permanent junior level residents on most of the services. Except that they are paid ~4 times as much. (Average starting PA/NP is ~100k, working 40 hrs/week, resident: ~50k, working 80hrs/week) Yes, we are more costly overall because we are being taught and time/resources have to be dedicated toward our education, but there is a major service component to the hospital that is never going to be made up for.
 
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