Why D.O. instead of an MD

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At the risk of fanning the flames, every Osteopathic student that I know went to a D.O. school soley because they couldn't become a Medical student.

But that's not to say that there aren't some D.O.'s out there that would prefer an Osteopathic school to an Allopathic school. 😉

Originally posted by dr kevin40
y? cuz they can't get into md programs and weren't able to start their own md credited medical school.
 
Originally posted by Molybdenum
I think a logical question that we all need to answer here is: would you go to caribbean MD or American DO schools if you don't get into the U.S. MD programs?

No, I'd rather get a PhD, but I'm MSTP though. 🙂
 
I have read every word posted in this topic and have seen some intelligent responses and some not so intelligent responses as well.

I have also seen some questions raised by people who either do not have a good understanding of DO's, or rather they are ignorant as to the ideals of the osteopathic profession. Again, some of these comment/questions are intelligent and others are not.

I think one thing that we all should agree on is that the childish bickering is pointless and will not further the cause at all, and that cause is to have a rational conversation about this topic.

I disagree with pro-DO people using as their argument that MDs are somehow the thorn in the side of competent medicine because they are nothing but pill pushers who are ignorant to all other methodology of treatment. This is completely false.

I also disagree with anti-DO people condeming the DO education when few of them have actually looked through a curriculum or sat in on a class with DO's. And, the arguments of "I heard that DOs are incompetent when they get to their clinicals", can be matched with stories that I have heard where DO students outshine MD students. To follow up on this, you can use Michigan State U. as an example. They have both an MD and a DO school and their students share many of the same classes. I am sure you would hardly say that Mich. State MDs are incompetent because they sat next to a DO. So, you can see that THAT argument is flawed.


So...has the osteopathic community done a good job in promoting osteopathic medicine and teaching the public (including MDs) about osteopathy? Absolutely not. I don't blame people one bit for not understanding what a DO is. I don't blame people one bit for looking at "DO" at the end of a physicians name and being questionable.

But what does bother me are highly intelligent people, particularly medical school applicants, who are so condescending of osteopathic medicine. If you research DO schools and don't like what you see or think that it's not for you, that's fine. I looked at MD schools and was not impressed with what I saw.

Some say that they don't know why a person would go to a DO school other than for the fact that they didn't (or couldn't) get into an MD school. I applied to only DO schools. I also know of several DO schools whose MCAT and GPA averages meet or exceed those of some MD schools.

I have also heard people give the line "So...would you rather go to your DO school or go to Harvard?" Give me a break. Would YOU rather go to your state MD school or go to Harvard? How can that question give any sort of intelligent response?

I know several people who turned down MD schools for a DO school. I know several people who are in DO schools that would give anything to be at an MD school. I also know people who took a year off to research more about DO schools prior to applying to medical school at all.

I guess here is my main point.

Both MD school and DO school are a means to an end. Becoming a physician is a goal we all have. How we go about obtaining that goal is a personal decision. As an MD or a DO we can become great internists, pediatricians, surgeons, cardiologists, and anything else we want.

As a DO I will hopefully have the ability to treat a patient using more than my scalpel and prescription pad. Will this help every patient? No. Will I use this with every patient? No. Will I deny a patient surgery if they need it? No. Will I hesitate to give an antibiotic or pain medication if it is needed? No.

You have an infection, you take an antibiotic.
You have an inflamed appendix, you get it surgically removed.
You have a migraine...ahh...here is where I can maybe try something else along with or even before I reach for the medication. Again, will it work for everyone? Of course not.

Medicine is a very personal thing. Each patient respond differently to medicine, surgery, other treatments, and to the attitude of the physician. I, as a physician, will need to find the best way to take care of my patients. This can include different treatments or even referring them to a more qualified person. But I feel that as DO I may have more options.

I know amazing DOs and amazing MDs. I know incompetent members of both groups as well. My personal physician is an MD and upon learning of my choice to apply to only osteopathic schools he told me "You really think highly of osteopathic medicine. Good luck to you, you are going to do very well. You are doing God's work. Maybe you can take over my practice in a few years." Nothing but good things.

I have been talking enough. Whether a DO or an MD the options are limitless. Work hard and you can do whatever you want. Be careful what judgement you make on others, it may come back at you some day.
 
JPHazelton makes a strong point. There is a lot of gray area, and a lot of exceptions to the rules. We can't take a few isolated examples out of context, and objectively judge a many, based on the achievements of a few. So many variables have to be taken into consideration that this topic is too arduous an ordeal to argue pro/con assertions.
 
What is a good book (or other piece of literature) that discusses the theme, beliefs, spirit, and ideologies that DOs believe in? I'm looking to read up on what (proven or debatable) medical practices distinguish DOs from MDS.

Please provide the title and author of the book. If it is an article, please provide the source and date of publication.
 
hey Cats
DO school is medical school.
 
another question about DO's
are all D.O's created equal or do some have a better repuation than others - which are the top D.O schools? And also do people tend to apply only to the D.O's in their state - and what is tuition like??
thx
 
I am one of those fortunate medical student who has been accepted to two DO schools--(DMU, PCOM) as well as two MD schools--USUHS and MCV. I never thought that choosing one medical school would be this difficult. Reading many interesting comments on this forum did not help. When I told the recruitment director at USUHS about my decision to attend PCOM with military scholarship she congratulated on getting accepted to that medical school and wished me a good luck.
My decision was based on the "school" not by the type of degree. Some students make comments that only 5% DO doctors practice OMM to the patients. I hope to become that 5%. Having an additional tool will only help my patients.
I've worked very hard to get this far and I am not going to settle for mediocrity. Oh yes, only one school rejected me--KCOM, DO school.
 
To answer a few of the recently posted questions...

Norman Gevitz wrote a book entitled "The D.O.'s: Osteopathic Medicine in America".

This book is often talked about as one of the must-reads for anyone interested in applying to osteopathic medical schools. It gives a good history of osteopathic medicine from its early days in the late 1800s up to the erly 1980s when the book was published. It also talks about the struggle for DOs to establish themselves, but is fair in its assessment that much of the early bias was indeed justified based on the reluctancy of many DOs at the time to "get with the times."

Definately worth the read.

DO schools are similar to MD schools in that all schools are not created equal. There are currently 19, soon to be 20, Osteopathic schools in the United States. Because of the smaller number of DO schools you will not find a ranking system that ranks the DO schools. Those in the osteopathic community can easily pick out the schools which have the best reputation. These tend to be the older schools or the schools with larger university affiliation (PCOM, KCOM, MSUCOM, CCOM, OSUCOM).

Currently, a 20th school is being designed which will be affiliated with Virginia Tech. There are also talks of a 21st that will be in Utah somewhere.

Many of the Osteopathic schools are private schools, and even these somewhat favor in-state residents. For instance, UNECOM located in Maine favors New England students. PCOM, although private, has PA resident making up approximately 60% of the enrollment.

Tuitions are similar to MD schools as far as differences in out-of-state and in-state/public vs private tuitions. PCOM, for instance, costs approximately $27,000+ a year regardless of state residency.

There are many scholarships offered to future DO students, many of them from the state osteopathic associations. Federal money as far as Stafford loans and loan limits are exactly the same as for MD students. In fact, the government does not differentiate when it comes to MD or DO students as far as scholarship and loan money.

You will find many DO schools listed in the US News top 50 for primary care. Of the top 50, I think 3 or 4 are DO schools. DO schools also consistently rank well as far as rural medicine.

People have criticised DO schools for being weak on the basic science education and research money, but these accusations are no longer justified. In the 1950's and 1960's many DO schools did indeed lack the basic science education that was needed to become a good physician. Of course, DOs who graduated during this time are not and were not incompetent, their education simply had other focuses.

Now, DO schools do indeed have research and the basic science education rivals that of any MD school. A big argument is that DO schools don't get any money for research and therefore are not worthy of being more highly ranked. Well, last time I checked Harvard was still near the top due to the research money they get, and I know of several excellent MD schools that get overlooked because the "big dogs" get the money. DO schools do indeed get research money and there are several DO schools currently running research programs that are at the forefront of medicine.

Some of the DO schools have been around for a long time, KCOM being around 105 years old I believe, PCOM is at 103. Many of the DO schools are younger, with several being formed within the last 30 years. Some say that this contributes to the fact that DOs are looked upon unfavorably because the schools are looked at as diploma mill schools. However, these schools maintain the same standards as any US medical school regardless of the degree it awards, MD or DO.

Quite possibly the biggest argument is that you don't need to be as smart as someone going to an MD school to get into a DO school. Many people point out the GPA and MCAT differences. To that I ask, what exactly do GPA and MCAT show?

First of all, the fact that the numbers are drastically different is false. Many DO schools have GPA and MCAT averages/requirement that meet or exceeed some MD school. I hardly think that a 3.5 and a 29 MCAT are poor numbers.

Another thing that needs to be taken into consideration is the background of the people who make up first year DO classes. On average, the first year class at a DO schools has a higher average age than an MD school. Many older, non traditional students look more highly at DO schools based on several things. DO schools, as a general rule, are more open to these types of students. The admission process at DO schools is focused on an applicants past history, medical experience, desire to become a physician, and knowledge of osteopathic medicine...all secondary to excellent academic standings. In all fairness, can a non-traditional student several years out of college be held to the same standards as a 21 year old applying from his senior year? Will the non-trad perform as well on the MCAT if they are 10 or more years away from Organic and Biochemistry?

You can make your own conclusions. So, it is true that some DO schools have lower average MCATs that some MD schools, but this in no way means it is easier to gain acceptance. It simply means that the focus of an applicants profile lies elsewhere. And, just to give an example, the acceptance rate for most DO schools hovers around 7-12%...right around most MD schools.

Another argument often seen is that DO students do not perform as well on the USMLEs. Well, that's a no brainer. DO students are busy preparing for the COMLEX, the DO version of the USMLE, and can hardly be expected to complete one baord exam and go off and take another and be held to the same expectations. Many DO students do indeed take the USMLEs and score very well. Some argue that studying for the COMLEX is no different than studying for the USMLE, but each exam has different focuses and a different layout.

Anti-DO people also like to say that if DOs were so uch equal to MDs, why don't you see more DO neurosurgeons and cardiothoracic surgeons. There are several answers to this. First, there are 1/6 the number of DO schools as MD schools. Right there you can see that DOs are in the great minority, and therefore less likely to be seen in ANY area of medicine as compared to an MD. Secondly, DOs in general are more focused on primary care (IM, FP, PED, OB/GYN). This is a strong push in many DO schools to get their graduates interested in practicing in these areas. Many osteopathic schools send as much as 75% of their graduates into primary care specialties. Some DO schools, however send only 50% into primary care areas...and these numbers are not totally accurate because a good portion of the graduates going to internal medicine (a primary care residency) will end up completing a specialty fellowship in areas such as cardiology or pulmonary medicine. The third reason you see fewer DOs in these big-time specialties is the fact that people are still bias against DOs. How can you expect to get DOs into these programs when: #1. the program director is bias against DOs, #2. the program has never had a DO and therefore not fully aware of the scope of education of these graduates, and #3. there are few of these types of specialties associated with osteopathic institutions. You see, the biased MDs who keep saying "prove it...show me a DO neurosurgeon", are the very ones who are preventing that from happening as much as it could.

And, just to clarify, there are DO neurosurgeons. There are osteopathic neurogurgery residencies, osteopathic orthopedic surgery residencies, osteopathic head and neck surgery residencies, and others. DO's do become dermatologists and opthalmologists.

PCOM, for example, recently had more of its graduating class enter specialty fields than primary care fields. This seems to be the trend for many DO schools (unfortunately for the general public, this is the trend for most MD schools as well).

I hope that I have helped to clarify some gray areas. Please feel free to post more questions on this topic. Again, if your bias is because of personal experience with a DO, thats one thing...and remember, the person makes the doctor not the letters behind the name. But if your bias is based on what you heard or what you believe by looking at the numbers, remember this. The largest bias against DOs exists in the premedical community. In your 3rd and 4th years you will be doing rotations with DOs. In your residency, you will be working side by side with DOs. Residency programs thrive because of the teamwork that exists with all of the doctors. Your chief resident or program director may be a DO. They may be an MD who has a DO as a mentor.

If you are a condescending person towards DOs, take care in where you tread. The osteopathic community is growing faster than ever before and faster than the allopathic community. Bias towards DOs will never become non-existant, but it will diminish greatly from where it is now. You can choose to alienate the entire profession or be smart and realize that these people are in every way competent, caring physicians who are just as good as any MD. In some situations, maybe even better.

Take care.
 
At the risk of fanning the flames, every Osteopathic student that I know went to a D.O. school soley because they couldn't become a Medical student.

But that's not to say that there aren't some D.O.'s out there that would prefer an Osteopathic school to an Allopathic school. 😉

Originally posted by Noeljan
hey Cats
DO school is medical school.

I think that was meant in the technical sense:

Meaning that if one gets a Doctor of Osteopathy degree (DO), then it?s from an osteopathic school.

An MD or a DO both have a doctorate degree, but they both don?t have the degree of Medical Doctor (nor do they both have a DO degree for that matter). In other words, if someone points out that one doesn?t have a Medical Doctor degree, then that shouldn?t be viewed as an automatic put-down. It seems that it was viewed that way because of the nature of the reply (...if it wasn't, then skip this whole post!😉 ).

I am one of those fortunate medical student who has been accepted to two DO schools--(DMU, PCOM) as well as two MD schools--USUHS and MCV. [...]Oh yes, only one school rejected me--KCOM
Congrats! Only applying to 5 schools was gutsy! And getting accepted to 4 out of those 5 is great! 😉
 
I thought MD stood for Doctor of Medicine, not Medical Doctor.
 
Off topic here, but I've always been curious about this. Do DOs have to take USMLE Steps 1-3 and COMLEX Steps 1-3 (total of 6 exams)? If so, why? If not, what do they have to take in order to practice in the U.S.?
 
DOs are required to take the COMLEX steps 1-3 for graduation and licensing.
 
i have a question for those in DO programs...
how did you do in undergrad, and how about your mcats? likewise- how about those that are in MD programs??
peter
 
Originally posted by poloace
i have a question for those in DO programs...
how did you do in undergrad, and how about your mcats? likewise- how about those that are in MD programs??
peter

what sort of question is that?! how one individual did in undergrad really doesn't say anything about DO schools or MD schools. a DO person may have gotten a 3.7 with a 30 MCAT, while the MD person got a 3.4 with a 27 MCAT. the information doesn't really mean anything.
 
lola-
nonetheless, i am still interested.
 
oh, ok. whatever floats your boat 😉
 
Originally posted by apple638
DOs are required to take the COMLEX steps 1-3 for graduation and licensing.

Thanks for answering my question. But, you didn't answer the first part. I have always heard that DOs also take the USMLE STEP 1. Why is this? Do they also have to take USMLE Step 2-3? 😕
 
hey polace
I have a 3.6 right now overall. Last I checked my science is between a 3.4and 3.5. I am a nursing/pre-med at SUNY Buffalo. I hope🙂 to get into NYCOM.
Oh and I have been on two varsity sports in college among a few other things(ie my sorority)
Hope that helps
 
CANES,
DO students don't have to take the USMLE, but a good percentage do. They choose to do this in case they desire to apply to the more competetive allopathic programs, also there are certain allopathic programs that "like" to see the USMLE scores because they are not as familiar with the COMLEX, or they want to put all applicants on an even scale for comparing them. However, most allopathic programs will be just as happy with COMLEX scores only. This is my understanding, but someone else might be able to shed more light.
 
npdoc hit the nail on the head.
 
Originally posted by CANES2006


Thanks for answering my question. But, you didn't answer the first part. I have always heard that DOs also take the USMLE STEP 1. Why is this? Do they also have to take USMLE Step 2-3? 😕

your original question was something like what did DOs have to take, the COMLEX or USMLE and I told you COMLEX. I didn't read in your original question why do DOs take the USMLE but npdoc28 did a great job answering that question.
 
Congress has ruled that the COMLEX and USMLE are equivalent licensure examinations and, as such, they are to be accepted at any residency program. However, loopholes always exist, so ill-informed directors of some programs may choose to find reasons to not accept D.O. applicants because he/she doesn't understand how to interpret the COMLEX scores and how to compare them to USMLE. As a result, it is much easier for the Osteopathic student to take both exams, since we are granted that privilege. This step allows us to avoid discrimination based on ignorance of board score comparisons.
 
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