Why do DO students have a lower USMLE pass rate than MD students?

[power ranger]

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Hi. I was just looking at

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2005perf.htm

Why is the USMLE pass rate of a DO around 70%, same as a Foreign medical graduate? MD students pass at around 90%. I was just curious, so I clicked on 2001. Same stats, virtually.

Are the DO students just pooped out after having taken the COMLEX, or ...well, I don't know what explains it.

I'm a DO student.

Anyone with input and experience would be appreciated.

I remember when I talked to a practicing DO friend of mine, he said he just knew he did worser on the USMLE, on the day of the test.

 

[mj1878]

I'm going for popcorn. BRB.


"WORSER???"

 

[Dr Trek 1]

People have endless theories about this.

I think a great way to test this would be to have allopathic students take the COMLEX exam minus the OMM content. I have a feeling that their pass rate would not be as high if they just studied for the USMLE. This is because the COMLEX and USMLE, although they cover much of the same material, stress different subjects more. It's kind of like taking the biology section of the MCAT after having studied for your general biology and organic cemistry college finals. Two similar tests in content, but very different in actuality.

I also feel that more DO students who take the USMLE take it without sufficient "USMLE-focused" studying, and figure that their COMLEX studying is sufficient. Some DOs may even take the USMLE "for the heck of it" or "just in case" they decide to apply to a competitive residency where a good USMLE score would make one more competitive.



If all DO students who took the USMLE studied for it in a USMLE-focused way, I'm sure the percentages would be close to equal for both allo and osteo students.

 

[tsdesai]

Well the way i looked at it is that less DO students actually took the test. Therefore, if the number of students who took the test was comparable to MD students (which is impossible), then the actual number would be closer. One student failing the test would have a larger impact on the pass percent of all DO students as opposed to MD students due to the difference in the number of test takers. Hope this wasn't too confusing.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Hi. I was just looking at

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2005perf.htm

Why is the USMLE pass rate of a DO around 70%, same as a Foreign medical graduate? MD students pass at around 90%. I was just curious, so I clicked on 2001. Same stats, virtually.

Are the DO students just pooped out after having taken the COMLEX, or ...well, I don't know what explains it.

I'm a DO student.

Anyone with input and experience would be appreciated.

I remember when I talked to a practicing DO friend of mine, he said he just knew he did worser on the USMLE, on the day of the test.

1. DO schools prepare students to take the COMLEX, and not the USMLE. Since the USMLE has more biostatistics and biochemistry, but the COMLEX has more anatomy and OMM, you'll find less training in the former and more training in the latter at DO schools.

2. Keep in mind that this is an average of ALL DO schools. Some schools perform above the national MD average on USMLE. Keep in mind that there are SOME DO schools with very low admissions standards.

 

[sophiejane]

TCOM c/o 2007 USMLE pass rate: 91% (COMLEX pass rate 99.4%)
National USMLE pass rate for Allopathic students: 92%

🙂

Granted, only 80% of the class took USMLE step I, and we probably self-selected to some degree, but that's not too shabby anyway.

What did we do differently? I think we all studied seperately for the two exams and started studying early. We used two different approaches for two pretty different exams and the results were favorable. It can't be that we were ONLY prepared to take the COMLEX by our school. We were taught good medicine and good science and we studied.

 

[OSUdoc08]

TCOM c/o 2007 USMLE pass rate: 91%
National USMLE pass rate for Allopathic students: 92%

🙂

Granted, only 80% of the class took USMLE step I, and we probably self-selected to some degree, but that's not too shabby anyway.

What did we do differently? I think we all studied seperately for the two exams and started studying early. We used two different approaches for two pretty different exams and the results were favorable.

OSU-COM c/o 2006 USMLE Pass rate = 100% (50% of the class took it.)

(Not just the top half of the class took it. People that ranked all over the class took it. The COMLEX pass rate was 100% that year as well.)

---> This information is per members of that class, and not myself.

 

[sophiejane]

.

 

[lama]

Let's be honest here people... all this BS about DO schools prepare for the COMLEX only is ridiculous. The two differences between the these exams are 1) OMM and biostatistics and 2) one is well-written and one is not. There is hardly any anatomy on the COMLEX and just as much biochem as the USMLE.

My opinion:
1. I agree that simple statistics tells you that with a lower overall DO count, one failure means more to our percentages.

2. But more importantly, call a spade a spade guys... DO's, in general, tend to have poorer test taking skills. Documented research bears out the MCAT discrepancy. (I already know MCAT scores dont make good doctors so save your breath.)

This is not meant to be a broad-brush statement, for I know several of my classmates that did very well on the USMLE. In fact, most of my classmates, including myself, did better on the USMLE than the COMLEX. I know of atleast 8 people that scored above 230 on the USMLE in my class. I also know of a few well-meaning students that worked very hard, but did not score well. Looking back, they did not score well on their SAT or MCAT. Some take tests better than others.

 

[sophiejane]

Let's be honest here people... all this BS about DO schools prepare for the COMLEX only is ridiculous. The two differences between the these exams are 1) OMM and biostatistics and 2) one is well-written and one is not. There is hardly any anatomy on the COMLEX and just as much biochem as the USMLE.

Those are pretty big differences...

 

[lama]

Those are pretty big differences...

Not at all. I varied very little in my study for each test. As I said before, one day was spent reviewing OMM and I took the COMLEX and did fine.

I felt the USMLE was more difficult, but better written, and by preparing for it, I knew I would be fine on the COMLEX. I was right. I mean come on... tell me you knew what the small pox vaccine looked like? How do you prepare for that BS?... You can't, so dont bother.

 

[medhacker]

Documented research bears out the MCAT discrepancy.

Which discrepancy are you exactly talking about?

 

[Vox Animo]

Hi. I was just looking at

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2005perf.htm

Why is the USMLE pass rate of a DO around 70%, same as a Foreign medical graduate? MD students pass at around 90%. I was just curious, so I clicked on 2001. Same stats, virtually.

Are the DO students just pooped out after having taken the COMLEX, or ...well, I don't know what explains it.

I'm a DO student.

Anyone with input and experience would be appreciated.

I remember when I talked to a practicing DO friend of mine, he said he just knew he did worser on the USMLE, on the day of the test.

Magic. Thats why.

 

[Raven Feather]

Let's be honest here people... all this BS about DO schools prepare for the COMLEX only is ridiculous. The two differences between the these exams are 1) OMM and biostatistics and 2) one is well-written and one is not. There is hardly any anatomy on the COMLEX and just as much biochem as the USMLE.

My opinion:
1. I agree that simple statistics tells you that with a lower overall DO count, one failure means more to our percentages.

2. But more importantly, call a spade a spade guys... DO's, in general, tend to have poorer test taking skills. Documented research bears out the MCAT discrepancy. (I already know MCAT scores dont make good doctors so save your breath.)

This is not meant to be a broad-brush statement, for I know several of my classmates that did very well on the USMLE. In fact, most of my classmates, including myself, did better on the USMLE than the COMLEX. I know of atleast 8 people that scored above 230 on the USMLE in my class. I also know of a few well-meaning students that worked very hard, but did not score well. Looking back, they did not score well on their SAT or MCAT. Some take tests better than others.

Then why do the vast majority of them achieve first time pass on the COMLEX, and still the majority of them do pass first time on USMLE?

 

[dawg44]

I honestly don't know why you would ever WANT to take an extra test like the USMLE. Give me the Comlex, my degree and I will make just as much money as the next guy.

 

[lama]

Which discrepancy are you exactly talking about?

Data for allopathic (MD) schools

OGPA MCAT Total
2004....... 3.62........ 29.9 P
2003....... 3.62........ 29.6 P
2002....... 3.61........ 29.7 P
2001....... 3.60........ 29.6 P
2000....... 3.60........ 29.7 P


Data for osteopathic (DO) schools
SGPA MCAT Total
2003....... 3.45........ 24.57
2002....... 3.44........ 24.53
2001....... 3.43........ 24.72
2000....... 3.43........ 24.98
1999....... 3.43........ 25.28

http://www.studentdoctor.net/ready/app/medstatistics.asp

 

[sophiejane]

Not at all. I varied very little in my study for each test. As I said before, one day was spent reviewing OMM and I took the COMLEX and did fine.

I felt the USMLE was more difficult, but better written, and by preparing for it, I knew I would be fine on the COMLEX. I was right. I mean come on... tell me you knew what the small pox vaccine looked like? How do you prepare for that BS?... You can't, so dont bother.

Lots more primary care type stuff and diagnosis Q's on COMLEX and also a lot more drugs and bugs. Much more clinically oriented. Took it first.

Then I hit biostats and biochem pretty hard and memorized lots of inane details about the shapes of viruses, etc, for the USMLE.

I'm no genius, but it worked for me and I passed both comfortably. Doesn't work for everyone. I just felt like there were bigger differences between the two tests. It's okay that we disagree.

BTW, by the time I got to that smallpox Q at the end of day 2 I was pretty much hysterical with fatigue....I think I actually laughed out loud...

 

[lama]

edit... duplicate post

 

[lama]

Then why do the vast majority of them achieve first time pass on the COMLEX, and still the majority of them do pass first time on USMLE?

Maybe because only those who are motivated enough to take the USMLE are the same people who have done well in school and believe they will pass the USMLE before they take it. This is the very definition of a skewed sample. If all DO students were made to take the test, our average would be much lower.

 

[lama]

Lots more primary care type stuff and diagnosis Q's on COMLEX and also a lot more drugs and bugs. Much more clinically oriented. Took it first.

Then I hit biostats and biochem pretty hard and memorized lots of inane details about the shapes of viruses, etc, for the USMLE.

I'm no genius, but it worked for me and I passed both comfortably. Doesn't work for everyone. I just felt like there were bigger differences between the two tests. It's okay that we disagree.

BTW, by the time I got to that smallpox Q at the end of day 2 I was pretty much hysterical with fatigue....I think I actually laughed out loud...

I'll give you the Microbiology discrepancy. Isn't it ironic that an establishment that places so much emphasis on 'treating the patient, not symptoms' also writes an exam with disproportionate micro and pharm questions on their exam?

But I still hold that medicine is medicine. If you learn it, it doesn't matter what test you take, you will do well. Trying to focus on certain subjects because a test is percieved to have unequal representation of subject matter is not only futile, it's ridiculous. Learn all the material and you will be fine with whatever test you take, or both, for that matter.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Let's be honest here people... all this BS about DO schools prepare for the COMLEX only is ridiculous. The two differences between the these exams are 1) OMM and biostatistics and 2) one is well-written and one is not. There is hardly any anatomy on the COMLEX and just as much biochem as the USMLE.

My opinion:
1. I agree that simple statistics tells you that with a lower overall DO count, one failure means more to our percentages.

2. But more importantly, call a spade a spade guys... DO's, in general, tend to have poorer test taking skills. Documented research bears out the MCAT discrepancy. (I already know MCAT scores dont make good doctors so save your breath.)

This is not meant to be a broad-brush statement, for I know several of my classmates that did very well on the USMLE. In fact, most of my classmates, including myself, did better on the USMLE than the COMLEX. I know of atleast 8 people that scored above 230 on the USMLE in my class. I also know of a few well-meaning students that worked very hard, but did not score well. Looking back, they did not score well on their SAT or MCAT. Some take tests better than others.

OMM is all anatomy.

 

[lama]

OMM is all anatomy.

If your studying anatomy(OMM), your'e studying the wrong stuff.

Tenderpoints, cranial and sacrum my friend...

 

[OSUdoc08]

If your studying anatomy(OMM), your'e studying the wrong stuff.

Tenderpoints, cranial and sacrum my friend...

You must be forgetting about the sympathetic innervation and dermatomes, which is always on every COMLEX step I.

I have been told that I must memorize this information. (Especially sympathetic levels.)

 

[lama]

You must be forgetting about the sympathetic innervation and dermatomes, which is always one every COMLEX step I.

Im not going to split hairs, if you want to study that stuff... fine. Bottom line: It's not emphasized. Again, I reviewed this stuff for all of one day.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Im not going to split hairs, if you want to study that stuff... fine. Bottom line: It's not emphasized. Again, I reviewed this stuff for all of one day.

According to people who just took the COMLEX, it is necessary to memorize the items I mentioned above. Perhaps you just already knew this information without studying it or recieved a different version.

Since my school has exceptional pass rates on both USMLE and COMLEX, I believe I will follow the advice of my upperclassmen.

It also makes this thread a moot point, since the OP cannot generalize his comment to all DO schools, as evidenced by representatives of both TCOM and OSU-COM.

It is less of a "DO" thing and more of a "school" thing.

 

[lama]

According to people who just took the COMLEX, it is necessary to memorize the items I mentioned above. Perhaps you just already knew this information without studying it or recieved a different version.

T4 derm- nipples, T7- scapular angle.... It take minutes.

What's the ant. Chapmans for the kidneys? Deep R sulcus, Posterior L ILA, positive R standing flexion, negative Spring test, what's happening at L5? All about flexion and extension of the SBS...

This is the stuff.

 

[OSUdoc08]

T4 derm- nipples, T7- scapular angle.... It take minutes.

What's the ant. Chapmans for the kidneys? Deep R sulcus, Posterior L ILA, positive R standing flexion, negative Spring test, what's happening at L5? All about flexion and extension of the SBS...

This is the stuff.

 

[(nicedream)]

Saying "it's a school thing, not a DO thing" is silly. There's obviously a disproportionate number of DOs failing the USMLE. That is how these percentages work, they include everything in a group. If there are some MD schools with lower or higher percentages, does that negate the value of the statistical pass rate for all MDs? Every time something bad is said about DO schools, someone chimes in with "at OSU this and that..." or "at TCOM this and that...." Congrats, but you're still at DO schools, and you're painted with the same brush like it or not.

As lama said, lets call a spade a spade. DO students OVERALL test lower than MD students OVERALL on MCAT and USMLE. Exceptions are just that - exceptions. I plan on being one of them.

Why do they test lower? If you believe in the power of standardized testing, because they're not, as a whole, as intelligent/knowledgable. If you don't, then it's because they're not as good at taking tests.

 

[lama]

Right back at ya

 

[OSUdoc08]

Saying "it's a school thing, not a DO thing" is silly. There's obviously a disproportionate number of DOs failing the USMLE. That is how these percentages work, they include everything in a group. If there are some MD schools with lower or higher percentages, does that negate the value of the statistical pass rate for all MDs? Every time something bad is said about DO schools, someone chimes in with "at OSU this and that..." or "at TCOM this and that...." Congrats, but you're still at DO schools, and you're painted with the same brush like it or not.

As lama said, lets call a spade a spade. DO students OVERALL test lower than MD students OVERALL on MCAT and USMLE. Exceptions are just that - exceptions. I plan on being one of them.

Why do they test lower? If you believe in the power of standardized testing, because they're not, as a whole, as intelligent/knowledgable. If you don't, then it's because they're not as good at taking tests.

Perhaps, but if you attend one of the DO schools that is performing above the national MD average, then it doesn't really matter anyway, now does it?

 

[(nicedream)]

Perhaps, but if you attend one of the DO schools that is performing above the national MD average, then it doesn't really matter anyway, now does it?

All that matters is what you do. Or, more precisely, what I do 😀. No need to deny the broader questions though. I don't spend much time on it though... 🙄

 

[lama]

Saying "it's a school thing, not a DO thing" is silly. There's obviously a disproportionate number of DOs failing the USMLE. That is how these percentages work, they include everything in a group. If there are some MD schools with lower or higher percentages, does that negate the value of the statistical pass rate for all MDs? Every time something bad is said about DO schools, someone chimes in with "at OSU this and that..." or "at TCOM this and that...." Congrats, but you're still at DO schools, and you're painted with the same brush like it or not.

As lama said, lets call a spade a spade. DO students OVERALL test lower than MD students OVERALL on MCAT and USMLE. Exceptions are just that - exceptions. I plan on being one of them.

Why do they test lower? If you believe in the power of standardized testing, because they're not, as a whole, as intelligent/knowledgable. If you don't, then it's because they're not as good at taking tests.

Well said 👍

 

[OSUdoc08]

Right back at ya

Good. That looks like it would come in handy as a reservoir for long road trips.

 

[lama]

Good. That looks like it would come in handy as a reservoir for long road trips.

yeah... you could probably just put beer in it for that long road trip and sip from the straw...

 

[ham_happy]

Perhaps, but if you attend one of the DO schools that is performing above the national MD average, then it doesn't really matter anyway, now does it?

👎

 

[AwesomeO-DO]

i was about to say something to defend my fellow DO students, but then I remembered, WHAT THE HELL DO I CARE. I passed both tests with above average scores, and that's all that matters to me, and that is what should matter to the rest of you, HOW YOU DO, not how everyone else does.

 

[uacharya]

Well the way i looked at it is that less DO students actually took the test. Therefore, if the number of students who took the test was comparable to MD students (which is impossible), then the actual number would be closer. One student failing the test would have a larger impact on the pass percent of all DO students as opposed to MD students due to the difference in the number of test takers. Hope this wasn't too confusing.

I agree; I think this may very well be your answer!

 

[OSUdoc08]

yeah... you could probably just put beer in it for that long road trip and sip from the straw...

Nice. Once it was empty, you could fill it back up, if you know what I mean.

 

[Dr Trek 1]

I agree; I think this may very well be your answer!

Indeed. Statistics can very very easily lie and be misleading.

 

[OSUdoc08]

👎

😕

Is that wrist drop?

You might want to get that radial nerve checked.

 

[Ifellinapothole]

It's because NYCOM brings down the national average!

 

[niceguydoc]

its very simple. comlex is a piece of **** exam w/ random, repeated, vague, q's that do not test your knowledge of anything. ie - "patient comes into the physician's office w/ chief complaint of cough...diagnosis?" people in the top of the class at my school didn't do as well as they should have, and conversely, people at the bottom of the class did fairly well. path, anatomy, physiology, and biochem is virtually nonexistent on the exam. most of the folks that took both comlex and usmle actually did better on the latter.

 

[ham_happy]

😕

Is that wrist drop?

You might want to get that radial nerve checked.

The more **** you talk to protect DO against MD, the more **** will come up ... let MD and DO stay peacefully,you shud go check yourself 😴

 

[homeboy]

The more **** you talk to protect DO against MD, the more **** will come up ... let MD and DO stay peacefully,you shud go check yourself 😴

What? Learn English.
All I know is that I'm studying for the USMLE and a few days before the COMLEX I'll run through OMM. I haven't taken them yet (comin' up in June), but as far as Qbank goes, USMLE is hands-down more difficult. Every 3rd yr I've talked to who took both dittos what everyone else says: COMLEX = repitition, vague, random, bugs-n-drugs, repitition...not that great of a test; USMLE = more difficult, maybe more mundane facts, but more applicable to core sciences.

 

[OSUdoc08]

The more **** you talk to protect DO against MD, the more **** will come up ... let MD and DO stay peacefully,you shud go check yourself 😴

I have no idea what you just said.

 

[OSUdoc08]

What? Learn English.
All I know is that I'm studying for the USMLE and a few days before the COMLEX I'll run through OMM. I haven't taken them yet (comin' up in June), but as far as Qbank goes, USMLE is hands-down more difficult. Every 3rd yr I've talked to who took both dittos what everyone else says: COMLEX = repitition, vague, random, bugs-n-drugs, repitition...not that great of a test; USMLE = more difficult, maybe more mundane facts, but more applicable to core sciences.

From people who have taken the COMLEX and USMLE, I have always heard that COMLEX is the more difficult test.

 

[scpod]

DO students OVERALL test lower than MD students OVERALL on MCAT and USMLE. Exceptions are just that - exceptions. I plan on being one of them.

Statistically, it is impossible to compare because the samples are not the same. ALL MD students take the USMLE, but NOT all DO students do. It's also not fair to believe that only the best DO students take the test. It's far easier to believe that more marginal students take both because: 1) they need more options, and 2) they mostly tend to be those students who used DO only because they couldn't get into an MD school.

 

[Cowboy DO]

I took both the USMLE and the COMLEX and did very well on both. I feel a lot of it has to do with test exhaustion especially since up to this year the comlex was a two day 16 hour endurance fest. Its hard to study after that.

Also I believe that since we need to pass the comlex to graduate most students focus on studying for that. Buying COMLEX kaplan Qbank(a waste, get the usmle version), not focusing on biochem or stats, etc. I think this hurts. In my opinion you can study for the usmle and do well on the comlex, but not visa versa.

My advice to those taking both tests is to focus on usmle and throw a few days of omm in right before the comlex.

 

[docbill]

It is funny how everyone has their own explination.

I would take the simplest explinations. DO students are not being prepared for the USMLEs since they concentrate on the COMLEX.

Also, not all DO students are exceptional students. There are a few, on the bottom end of the smart scale (look at the range of GPA and MCAT scores... yes this is a measure of how well one does on exams, that is why I will do poorly.. duhhh).

 

[Old_Mil]

18% of the COMLEX (or so I've heard) is OMT. That's a chunk of study time (I'll leave it to you to determine if it is 18% of your board prep time, less, or more) that is diverted from studying actual science content for the boards. It also accounts for a lot of time during the year that is diverted from learning the basic science curriculum.

Either way, it would seem that MD students have more time to spend learning the science curriculum tested on step I.