Why do DO students have a lower USMLE pass rate than MD students?

[yanky5]

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Members do not see this ad.

It's because NYCOM brings down the national average!

Hey, it's not our fault the NYCOM curriculum sucks! We pay 37K / yr.

 

[wook]

My response to the original OP, is who cares? Study for whichever exam you are going to take. Study hard and do well. The exams tell you nothing of your ability to practice medicine. They are just hoops to pass through to get your full medical license.

Wook

 

[RajMahal]

first of all, I would like to preface this by saying that I am an osteopathic student.
The USMLE is a more difficult test, plain and simple. If you had all allopathic students taket he comlex minus OMM, the pass rate would be VERY high. The USMLE tests your understanding, on a much more detailed level, of the basic sciences. Not just "what drug treats what bug?" (a la comlex) but instead, what is the mecahnism of action of the drug, what receptor mechanism is involved, how does the endotoxin that the big secretes work, etc."? I feel that one can pass comlex, and actually do very well, by only memorizing a whole bunch of buzzwords. That's what I did. Then, I took 6 weeks to dedicate myself to studying for the USMLE. My scores were comparable (and above the nat's avg.) on both exams. However, having taken them both, I daresay it is impossible to argue that the USMLE was a more difficult exam.
Osteopathic education is still mostly focused on educating us to be primary care physicians. As such, we don't need to know receptor mechanisms, yada yada. Therefore, it's not emphasized, and when we see it on a test, we're not going to know it.
That being said, it's only a test. It's a standardized test, which has no reflection on what kind of a physician you're going to be. If that's why you went into medicine, to be a good physician, then i wouldn't stress about it too much. If you're going to take the USMLE to open the door to more training opporunities, by all means do it, but be aware that the USMLE is more detail oriented.

RPM
DMU DO-07
just over a year till graduation

 

[wook]

That being said, it's only a test. It's a standardized test, which has no reflection on what kind of a physician you're going to be. If that's why you went into medicine, to be a good physician, then i wouldn't stress about it too much.

👍

 

[(nicedream)]

It's far easier to believe that more marginal students take both because: 1) they need more options, and 2) they mostly tend to be those students who used DO only because they couldn't get into an MD school.

 

[gerido]

Well the way i looked at it is that less DO students actually took the test. Therefore, if the number of students who took the test was comparable to MD students (which is impossible), then the actual number would be closer. One student failing the test would have a larger impact on the pass percent of all DO students as opposed to MD students due to the difference in the number of test takers. Hope this wasn't too confusing.

I agree; I think this may very well be your answer!

Maybe DO has lower passing rate because (i mean SOME) DO students can't do simple statistical calculation... I kid, I kid =). But in all seriousness, it takes 2 minutes to plug the data a calculator and show that the difference is significant. The number of students taking the exam does not explain the difference.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Maybe DO has lower passing rate because (i mean SOME) DO students can't do simple statistical calculation... I kid, I kid =). But in all seriousness, it takes 2 minutes to plug the data a calculator and show that the difference is significant. The number of students taking the exam does not explain the difference.

What do statistics have to do with anything?

 

[(nicedream)]

What do statistics have to do with anything?

He was referring to the statistics of pass rates, and the fact that they are in fact significant.

 

[Dr JPH]

I don't think there is one *good* answer as to the discrepancy in the test scores. There are probably several things that factor into it but simply saying its because fewer DOs take the test doesnt explain it at all.

When I took COMLEX and USMLE Step 1 they were one week apart.

COMLEX came first. Nearly 800 questions, 2 days, paper and pencil. I was drained after that exam. I took it on a Tuesday and Wednesday I believe.

USMLE came the following weekend. Fewer than 400 questions on the computer. Picture quality was superior because of being on screen and not printed on paper.

I passed both and I was within 2 percentile points difference from one exam to the other.

Which one was "harder"?

COMLEX was more difficult as far an endurance. It is hard to walk out of a test room after 8 hours and know you need to come back the next day and do it all over again. This is probably not the case anymore now that the exam is computerized like the USMLE. COMLEX had more clinical based questions and more "buzzword" and recognition questions. "Strawberry tongue" and "cafe au lait spots" type questions.

I felt the USMLE tested more basic sciences and epidemiology. Research oriented topics as well. I remember several questions from USMLE step 1 that involved a data set with experimental methods and then a series of questions about the information. There were also far more genetics questions.

My studying was identical for both.

Step Up, First Aid and Blueprints.

I skipped Savarese because of all the mistakes in the book, but OMM was my strong point anyway.

Overall I dont think taking the USMLE helped me in any way other than taking $400 from me that would otherwise have been spent irresponsibly. 😉

 

[Blank00]

deleted

 

[OSUdoc08]

Is that a DO school thing, that the focus is more on anatomy than biostat, or just for the exam?

I'm trying to pick between applying to more DO or MD schools. So far, I think the DO "whole-body" approach just makes a hulluva lot more sense...

Yeah, it's not just for COMLEX. We basically take a "hands-on" anatomy course for 4 semesters. Most people assume that we are just learning techniques to treat musculoskeletal disorders. While this is true, MORE time is spent palpating the normal anatomy and learning to diagnose abnormal anatomical function. There is quite a bit of anatomy in our OMM courses, and they expect you to remember your gross anatomy.

Even if you do not plan to use OMM in practice, you will still have highly refined diagnostic skills for any patient with musculoskeletal disorders.

 

[HoodyHoo]

Yeah, it's not just for COMLEX. We basically take a "hands-on" anatomy course for 4 semesters. Most people assume that we are just learning techniques to treat musculoskeletal disorders. While this is true, MORE time is spent palpating the normal anatomy and learning to diagnose abnormal anatomical function. There is quite a bit of anatomy in our OMM courses, and they expect you to remember your gross anatomy.

Even if you do not plan to use OMM in practice, you will still have highly refined diagnostic skills for any patient with musculoskeletal disorders.

It's a great skill to have anyway to treat your friends and family even if you don't use it in the office. My family, especially my mom, asks for manipulation everyday during vacations at home. My girlfriend also bugs me when she has headaches...and it works everytime.

 

[docbill]

It's a great skill to have anyway to treat your friends and family even if you don't use it in the office. My family, especially my mom, asks for manipulation everyday during vacations at home. My girlfriend also bugs me when she has headaches...and it works everytime.

HEYYYYYyy wait a sec.. if this cures girl friend so called "headaches".. hmmm there will never be a "Noooo Honeyyyy not tonight, I have a headache" line... sweeeeeeeeet!!!!!

 

[daelroy]

first of all, I would like to preface this by saying that I am an osteopathic student.
The USMLE is a more difficult test, plain and simple. If you had all allopathic students taket he comlex minus OMM, the pass rate would be VERY high. The USMLE tests your understanding, on a much more detailed level, of the basic sciences. Not just "what drug treats what bug?" (a la comlex) but instead, what is the mecahnism of action of the drug, what receptor mechanism is involved, how does the endotoxin that the big secretes work, etc."? I feel that one can pass comlex, and actually do very well, by only memorizing a whole bunch of buzzwords. That's what I did. Then, I took 6 weeks to dedicate myself to studying for the USMLE. My scores were comparable (and above the nat's avg.) on both exams. However, having taken them both, I daresay it is impossible to argue that the USMLE was a more difficult exam.
Osteopathic education is still mostly focused on educating us to be primary care physicians. As such, we don't need to know receptor mechanisms, yada yada. Therefore, it's not emphasized, and when we see it on a test, we're not going to know it.
That being said, it's only a test. It's a standardized test, which has no reflection on what kind of a physician you're going to be. If that's why you went into medicine, to be a good physician, then i wouldn't stress about it too much. If you're going to take the USMLE to open the door to more training opporunities, by all means do it, but be aware that the USMLE is more detail oriented.

RPM
DMU DO-07
just over a year till graduation

Your post is one that everyone is thinking but not saying. This is another SDN issue. SDN has its own reality. You know what I'm talking about. Everyone on SDN seemingly and easily crushes the MCAT and Step I as if it's nothing. In the SDN universe, DO students struggle to explain the discrepancy in scores and chalk up many reasons aside from the most obvious reason as to why DO students don't fare as well on the USMLE: the fact that the USMLE is a more difficult exam. If you step onto a DO campus, every DO will simply tell you the COMLEX is easier. We aren't afraid to admit that in person but I suppose on SDN, everyone becomes a little more defensive.

Even DO's who don't plan on taking the USMLE will purchase the USMLE prep course because they are aware the USMLE questions are much more difficult. And they are not practicing these just to have additional questions. It's well known among DO's that if you can do well on Step I questions, you will be more than prepared for the COMLEX because it's an easier test.

As to why we don't fare as well. I think there two parts to this answer. Yes, we are not as good at taking tests and the lower MCAT stats do play a role in that. It's also why IMG's do worse than us on the USMLE. The other part is our curriculum is not geared toward preparing us for the USMLE. Our curriculum involves too many classes and doesn't allow us to study classes like path, phys and biochem in as much detail as most allopathic schools.

I will admit that this shouldn't be an excuse. And any DO who wants to do well on the USMLE can succeed regardless of his or her MCAT score or medical school curriculum. There are many DO's who have excelled on both tests too.

 

[Taus]

Your post is one that everyone is thinking but not saying. This is another SDN issue. SDN has its own reality. You know what I'm talking about. Everyone on SDN seemingly and easily crushes the MCAT and Step I as if it's nothing. In the SDN universe, DO students struggle to explain the discrepancy in scores and chalk up many reasons aside from the most obvious reason as to why DO students don't fare as well on the USMLE: the fact that the USMLE is a more difficult exam. If you step onto a DO campus, every DO will simply tell you the COMLEX is easier. We aren't afraid to admit that in person but I suppose on SDN, everyone becomes a little more defensive.

Even DO's who don't plan on taking the USMLE will purchase the USMLE prep course because they are aware the USMLE questions are much more difficult. And they are not practicing these just to have additional questions. It's well known among DO's that if you can do well on Step I questions, you will be more than prepared for the COMLEX because it's an easier test.

As to why we don't fare as well. I think there two parts to this answer. Yes, we are not as good at taking tests and the lower MCAT stats do play a role in that. It's also why IMG's do worse than us on the USMLE. The other part is our curriculum is not geared toward preparing us for the USMLE. Our curriculum involves too many classes and doesn't allow us to study classes like path, phys and biochem in as much detail as most allopathic schools.

I will admit that this shouldn't be an excuse. And any DO who wants to do well on the USMLE can succeed regardless of his or her MCAT score or medical school curriculum. There are many DO's who have excelled on both tests too.

Just curious...but what other classes besides OMM do you have to study for that detract from the core sciences? I couldn't imagine the few hours of OMM a week taking that much away

 

[OSUdoc08]

Your post is one that everyone is thinking but not saying. This is another SDN issue. SDN has its own reality. You know what I'm talking about. Everyone on SDN seemingly and easily crushes the MCAT and Step I as if it's nothing. In the SDN universe, DO students struggle to explain the discrepancy in scores and chalk up many reasons aside from the most obvious reason as to why DO students don't fare as well on the USMLE: the fact that the USMLE is a more difficult exam. If you step onto a DO campus, every DO will simply tell you the COMLEX is easier. We aren't afraid to admit that in person but I suppose on SDN, everyone becomes a little more defensive.

Even DO's who don't plan on taking the USMLE will purchase the USMLE prep course because they are aware the USMLE questions are much more difficult. And they are not practicing these just to have additional questions. It's well known among DO's that if you can do well on Step I questions, you will be more than prepared for the COMLEX because it's an easier test.

As to why we don't fare as well. I think there two parts to this answer. Yes, we are not as good at taking tests and the lower MCAT stats do play a role in that. It's also why IMG's do worse than us on the USMLE. The other part is our curriculum is not geared toward preparing us for the USMLE. Our curriculum involves too many classes and doesn't allow us to study classes like path, phys and biochem in as much detail as most allopathic schools.

I will admit that this shouldn't be an excuse. And any DO who wants to do well on the USMLE can succeed regardless of his or her MCAT score or medical school curriculum. There are many DO's who have excelled on both tests too.

This is completely backwards. The COMLEX questions are more difficult. This has been consistently echoed by those who have taken both exams, and the Kaplan USMLE/COMLEX instructors themselves.

 

[the1doc]

This is completely backwards. The COMLEX questions are more difficult. This has been consistently echoed by those who have taken both exams, and the Kaplan USMLE/COMLEX instructors themselves.

Are these the same instructors who integrated OMT into "EVERY" course at OSU? The imaginary ones?

The people I've spoken to don't seem to "consisently echo" anything regarding the COMLEX/USMLE debate. If you've been awake and literate while reading these boards, you'd realize that there are many individuals who feel that the USMLE is more difficult, and they support those feelings with good arguments.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

This is completely backwards. The COMLEX questions are more difficult. This has been consistently echoed by those who have taken both exams, and the Kaplan USMLE/COMLEX instructors themselves.

This is ridiculous, just like the rest of your posts. I would take everything on this thread with a grain of salt, ESPECIALLY from those who HAVE NOT even taken both tests. I have taken the first two parts of the COMLEX and all 3 steps of the USMLE. I elected not to take COMLEX 3 because I didn't need it to get my unrestricted license in the state in which I am doing my residency and plan to practice. USMLE Step I is flat out a harder test. No way around it. I did very well on the COMLEX, yet only managed a 200 on Step I. The other 2 DO students I took it with that day failed. COMLEX was difficult in that the questions were frequently poorly written. USMLE was difficult because the questions were difficult. I also had a lot of biochem, which was basically nonexistent on COMLEX I. USMLE frequently requires you to deduce the correct answer after you have reasoned through 3 or 4 pieces of information you needed to get to that answer. COMLEX frequently required you to narrow it down to the two "most right" answers and then guess. DO's can make a lot of excuses like OMM blah blah blah, which may hold a little bit of truth or the fact that certain things on the USMLE may not be as heavily emphasized in DO school but the bottom line is that USMLE is harder. Things kind of evened out on me for step/level II in that I did equally well on both exams (240+ and 85%+). Take my opinion for what it's worth, but I have taken both exams.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Are these the same instructors who integrated OMT into "EVERY" course at OSU? The imaginary ones?

The people I've spoken to don't seem to "consisently echo" anything regarding the COMLEX/USMLE debate. If you've been awake and literate while reading these boards, you'd realize that there are many individuals who feel that the USMLE is more difficult, and they support those feelings with good arguments.

The Kaplan instructor who told us about this is Dr. Edward Goljan.

Most of the students I have spoken to who have taken both have echoed his sentiments.

 

[OSUdoc08]

This is ridiculous, just like the rest of your posts. I would take everything on this thread with a grain of salt, ESPECIALLY from those who HAVE NOT even taken both tests. I have taken the first two parts of the COMLEX and all 3 steps of the USMLE. I elected not to take COMLEX 3 because I didn't need it to get my unrestricted license in the state in which I am doing my residency and plan to practice. USMLE Step I is flat out a harder test. No way around it. I did very well on the COMLEX, yet only managed a 200 on Step I. The other 2 DO students I took it with that day failed. COMLEX was difficult in that the questions were frequently poorly written. USMLE was difficult because the questions were difficult. I also had a lot of biochem, which was basically nonexistent on COMLEX I. USMLE frequently requires you to deduce the correct answer after you have reasoned through 3 or 4 pieces of information you needed to get to that answer. COMLEX frequently required you to narrow it down to the two "most right" answers and then guess. DO's can make a lot of excuses like OMM blah blah blah, which may hold a little bit of truth or the fact that certain things on the USMLE may not be as heavily emphasized in DO school but the bottom line is that USMLE is harder. Things kind of evened out on me for step/level II in that I did equally well on both exams (240+ and 85%+). Take my opinion for what it's worth, but I have taken both exams.

According to Dr. Goljan, most students tell him that the COMLEX is more difficult.

I'm sorry if you don't think so.

 

[luckystar]

Maybe some people perceive the COMLEX as "more difficult" because of the syntax used in the questions. Some of them were worded totally @ss-backwards, and some of them were so obvious it made you wonder if it was one of those questions that didn't count. In terms of material, the USMLE was hands-down the more in-depth, detailed, and thought-provoking exam.

I know some people in my class who did not take the USMLE seriously, and thought it would somehow benefit them to take it anyway. If you choose to take an optional exam, it's your responsibility to prepare adequately for it, whatever your goal may be. Take those NBME practice forms online. They are a great example of how the questions on the USMLE are going to be like, and will give you a good idea of how to approach them.

 

[ImNoSuperman]

😱
You ladies are unbelievable the way you get your bras all bunched up about this! COMLEX... NO... USMLE... NO... COMLEX! My God it sounds like a retirement home in here: everyone squaking about pointless crap and p!ssing their pants for no apparent reason. I don't start for another couple of months and the way I hear it from EVERYONE I've talked to is that everyone learns differently... period! Everyone on here has said this in one way or another but has been too blindly enraged to stop and realize this. There is always an exception to YOUR rule or the way you learn, and everyone else is that exception.

 

[PhDtoDO]

I honestly don't know why you would ever WANT to take an extra test like the USMLE. Give me the Comlex, my degree and I will make just as much money as the next guy.

Not everyone is solely concerned with their potential income. I want to do an academic residency, and one that, to my knowledge isnt' even offered at DO hospitals. Any info on WHY Do students might not do as well on the USMLE could help me better design my studying. Trust me, I don't want to take two tests, but the USMLE is more important to me in the end.

Just My Opinion,

PhDtoDO

 

[MD2b20004]

Hi. I was just looking at

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2005perf.htm

Why is the USMLE pass rate of a DO around 70%, same as a Foreign medical graduate? MD students pass at around 90%. I was just curious, so I clicked on 2001. Same stats, virtually.

Are the DO students just pooped out after having taken the COMLEX, or ...well, I don't know what explains it.

I'm a DO student.

Anyone with input and experience would be appreciated.

I remember when I talked to a practicing DO friend of mine, he said he just knew he did worser on the USMLE, on the day of the test.

Simply because for MD schools they tailor there coursework to pass USMLE I and II. Pretty much a 2 year kaplan for the exam, schools want the highest passing rate to look the best. DO schools (which I dont have any experience with to speak for), but I assume they prepare you more towards your COMPLEX. Now if MDs were to take Complex I and II, I bet DO passing rates will be MUCHHHHHH higher than that of MD students. Simple as that...

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Simply because for MD schools they tailor there coursework to pass USMLE I and II. Pretty much a 2 year kaplan for the exam, schools want the highest passing rate to look the best. DO schools (which I dont have any experience with to speak for), but I assume they prepare you more towards your COMPLEX. Now if MDs were to take Complex I and II, I bet DO passing rates will be MUCHHHHHH higher than that of MD students. Simple as that...

COMLEX, boss, not "COMPLEX."

Anyways, as someone who's been to grad school twice at allopathic institutions and is now attending a DO school, I see the following reasons why DO students, generally, don't do as well on the USMLE Step 1:

1) Our Biochem, Mol. bio, Physio (at least at PCOM) is no where near the level of depth taught at the MD schools. And I had Dr.Constanzo as my Physio prof in grad school!

2) MCAT averages tend to be lower at DO schools. It's really difficult to go from mid-20 MCAT scores to 250+/260+ USMLE Step 1. It can/does happen but it's the exception, not the rule (unless you go to OSU where Dr.Goljan teaches..🙂

3) Generally speaking, there isn't as much "support" from the administration when it comes to taking the boards at DO schools (at least at PCOM). You're given a certain amount of time off (4-8 weeks) and you basically are left on your own to figure out what books to use, what practice questions are available, and how to formulate a realistic study plan. And if you're not on SDN, you're basically clueless! MD schools either pay for a Kaplan course for every student (although NYCOM does this too), sits down with each and every student and comes up with an individualized study plan (VCU), and/or administers NBME subject/practice tests towards the end of 2nd year to gauge student's performance BEFORE they even start studying for boards. THIS IS CRUCIAL!!!

4) DO students walk into the USMLE Step 1 without ever taking at least one of the NBME online practice tests! For the love of God, can someone announce to DO students to PLEASE TAKE AT LEAST ONE NBME PRACTICE TEST BEFORE TAKING THE USMLE! There is absolutely no reason why anyone should take the USMLE if their predicted score is < 200. What's the point of taking it if you're going to bomb it?

Personally, I think numbers 2-4 are the BIGGEST reasons why DO students don't do as well on the USMLE Step 1. Alright, I'm done rambling...

 

[MD2b20004]

COMLEX, boss, not "COMPLEX."

Anyways, as someone who's been to grad school twice at allopathic institutions and is now attending a DO school, I see the following reasons why DO students, generally, don't do as well on the USMLE Step 1:

1) Our Biochem, Mol. bio, Physio (at least at PCOM) is no where near the level of depth taught at the MD schools. And I had Dr.Constanzo as my Physio prof in grad school!

2) MCAT averages tend to be lower at DO schools. It's really difficult to go from mid-20 MCAT scores to 250+/260+ USMLE Step 1. It can/does happen but it's the exception, not the rule (unless you go to OSU where Dr.Goljan teaches..🙂

3) Generally speaking, there isn't as much "support" from the administration when it comes to taking the boards at DO schools (at least at PCOM). You're given a certain amount of time off (4-8 weeks) and you basically are left on your own to figure out what books to use, what practice questions are available, and how to formulate a realistic study plan. And if you're not on SDN, you're basically clueless! MD schools either pay for a Kaplan course for every student (although NYCOM does this too), sits down with each and every student and comes up with an individualized study plan (VCU), and/or administers NBME subject/practice tests towards the end of 2nd year to gauge student's performance BEFORE they even start studying for boards. THIS IS CRUCIAL!!!

4) DO students walk into the USMLE Step 1 without ever taking at least one of the NBME online practice tests! For the love of God, can someone announce to DO students to PLEASE TAKE AT LEAST ONE NBME PRACTICE TEST BEFORE TAKING THE USMLE! There is absolutely no reason why anyone should take the USMLE if their predicted score is < 200. What's the point of taking it if you're going to bomb it?

Personally, I think numbers 2-4 are the BIGGEST reasons why DO students don't do as well on the USMLE Step 1. Alright, I'm done rambling...

Sorry about not spelling right, I do not spelling checks on Microsoft Word for my threads. Anyhow I just wanted to disagree about the link/correlation between MCAT scores and board scores, I personally know of PLENTY medical students who did not do so hott on the MCAT and ROCKED, I MEAN above 250 rock the boards. And this is not just a few rare occurances, the MCAT tests you on VERY different material than the USMLE. If you have a good grip of MSI and MSII you should have NO problem doing great on the USMLE, even if your MCAT was a 20.
Just my 2 cents.
Thanks...

 

[exmike]

Sorry about not spelling right, I do not spelling checks on Microsoft Word for my threads. Anyhow I just wanted to disagree about the link/correlation between MCAT scores and board scores, I personally know of PLENTY medical students who did not do so hott on the MCAT and ROCKED, I MEAN above 250 rock the boards. And this is not just a few rare occurances, the MCAT tests you on VERY different material than the USMLE. If you have a good grip of MSI and MSII you should have NO problem doing great on the USMLE, even if your MCAT was a 20.
Just my 2 cents.
Thanks...

Your anecdotal evidence is pretty irrelevant. There is a proven relationship between MCAT and UMSLE. Look it up on pubmed. That probably accounts for much of the gap in pass rates, along with subject emphasis.

 

[Tiki]

3) Generally speaking, there isn't as much "support" from the administration when it comes to taking the boards at DO schools (at least at PCOM). You're given a certain amount of time off (4-8 weeks) and you basically are left on your own to figure out what books to use, what practice questions are available, and how to formulate a realistic study plan. And if you're not on SDN, you're basically clueless! MD schools either pay for a Kaplan course for every student (although NYCOM does this too), sits down with each and every student and comes up with an individualized study plan (VCU), and/or administers NBME subject/practice tests towards the end of 2nd year to gauge student's performance BEFORE they even start studying for boards. THIS IS CRUCIAL!!!

That is not true. I didn't have a course, individual study plan or an NBME practice test and I go to a MD school. In fact, most schools that I know of had none of the above either.

 

[MD2b20004]

Your anecdotal evidence is pretty irrelevant. There is a proven relationship between MCAT and UMSLE. Look it up on pubmed. That probably accounts for much of the gap in pass rates, along with subject emphasis.

Whats irrelevant is your useless response, as I said in my post FROM PERSONAL FRIENDS EXPERIENCES, I HAVE TONS OF FRIENDS IN MED SCHOOL/DOCTORS, alot bombed the MCAT and did GREAT on the USMLE, and you can find a site to prove anything, reality is different, if you went to med school based on a website ranking or what a website says then u must be ******ed, there is alot more than just STATISTICS someone decides to come with, with god knows what criteria.

No disrespect, my 2 cents, and keep your comments to yourself if they are not contributing, if you want to individually tell me something PM me instead of wasting space on the thread with useless info.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Your anecdotal evidence is pretty irrelevant. There is a proven relationship between MCAT and UMSLE. Look it up on pubmed. That probably accounts for much of the gap in pass rates, along with subject emphasis.

That's about as valid as the relationship between a

and an anorexic.

 

[exmike]

That's about as valid as the relationship between a

and an anorexic.

say what you will, there is enough published peer-reviewed journal articles finding a significant correlation between MCAT and Step 1 scores (especially the Bio section). You're a med student, I'm sure you've used pubmed before. Try it before you knock it.

 

[exmike]

Whats irrelevant is your useless response, as I said in my post FROM PERSONAL FRIENDS EXPERIENCES, I HAVE TONS OF FRIENDS IN MED SCHOOL/DOCTORS, alot bombed the MCAT and did GREAT on the USMLE, and you can find a site to prove anything, reality is different, if you went to med school based on a website ranking or what a website says then u must be ******ed, there is alot more than just STATISTICS someone decides to come with, with god knows what criteria.

No disrespect, my 2 cents, and keep your comments to yourself if they are not contributing, if you want to individually tell me something PM me instead of wasting space on the thread with useless info.

This isn't personal. It simply isnt true that there is no correlation between MCAT and Step 1. All things equal, there is a correlation. Of course you can ace your MCAT, be a lousy bum in your first two years, and you will bomb the Step 1. Likewise you could have studied your ass off your first two years and destroyed the Step 1 despite an average MCAT. However we're talking about trends here, and there trends correlate MCAT and Step 1. Comon, just think about it, both are tests of memorization and deductive reasoning. Both are tests in which you can improve your score if you study more. Doesn't it make sense that someone with a higher MCAT score would have the same qualities that might make them score well on the Step 1? This isn't rocket science statistical analysis here.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

That is not true. I didn't have a course, individual study plan or an NBME practice test and I go to a MD school. In fact, most schools that I know of had none of the above either.

I didn't say that was the ONLY reason. It is ONE reason why I think USMLE scores tend to be lower for DO students.

Otherwise, I agree with you 100%.

 

[Shinken]

Given the fact that the USMLE is not required for DO grads to obtain licensure, and also that the USMLE is not an indication of clinical skill, I don't see the relevance of this thread.

Besides, DOs have outperformed MDs in the USMLE Steps 1, 2 and 3 on a consistent basis (look at IMG MD scores...aren't those MDs?).

Perhaps the questions should be, "Why do a portion of DO students that choose to take a test that isn't required for them to pass have a lower score than US MD students whose graduation and licensure hinge on passing it."

 

[scpod]

This isn't personal. It simply isnt true that there is no correlation between MCAT and Step 1. All things equal, there is a correlation.

We already went through this on another thread and relevent citations were shown. There are several studies that show a correlation between MCAT scores and USMLE scores. Some of them attempted to study several factors (MCAT, GPA, method of instruction, etc.), and there were obviously anomolies indicated, but MCAT was the greatest predictor overall. There are no studies so far that present the opposite opinion. Take it as you will.

 

[exmike]

Given the fact that the USMLE is not required for DO grads to obtain licensure, and also that the USMLE is not an indication of clinical skill, I don't see the relevance of this thread.

Besides, DOs have outperformed MDs in the USMLE Steps 1, 2 and 3 on a consistent basis (look at IMG MD scores...aren't those MDs?).

Perhaps the questions should be, "Why do a portion of DO students that choose to take a test that isn't required for them to pass have a lower score than US MD students whose graduation and licensure hinge on passing it."

Uh, thats pretty simple, so they can apply to allopathic resdiencies.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Uh, thats pretty simple, so they can apply to allopathic resdiencies.

Mike,

The COMLEX is accepted at a vast majority of ACGME (allopathic) residencies. The USMLE is not required.

 

[LastDance]

this was an interesting thread, i guess the moral of the story is to start preparing early and often, but thats easier said than done...

 

[PlasticMan]

Hey, it's not our fault the NYCOM curriculum sucks! We pay 37K / yr.

Supposedly they increased the difficulty in the curriculum for us 1st years this year. Comparing our tests to last year's exams, so far all my friends agree last year's were easier. It seems NYCOM is taking steps in the right direction.

 

[bonesawz]

Statistically, it is impossible to compare because the samples are not the same. ALL MD students take the USMLE, but NOT all DO students do. It's also not fair to believe that only the best DO students take the test. It's far easier to believe that more marginal students take both because: 1) they need more options, and 2) they mostly tend to be those students who used DO only because they couldn't get into an MD school.

Or they WANT more options and have the drive to take another test to have more possibilities open for them.

 

[toothless rufus]

I 'm a bit curious to know if there are indeed notable curricular differences in emphasis of level of difficulty of courses like biochem, molecular bio, etc. in osteopathic schools versus allopathic.

And its so funny how often "COMLEX" becomes "COMPLEX!" Freudian slip?

 

[Dr JPH]

I 'm a bit curious to know if there are indeed notable curricular differences in emphasis of level of difficulty of courses like biochem, molecular bio, etc. in osteopathic schools versus allopathic.

I dont think so.

I passed the USMLE and got nearly the same percentile as I did on COMLEX.

The people I know who took USMLE to strengthen an application for a competitive specialty did very well.

The people I know who took USMLE to strengthen a poor application or to draw attention away from lower COMLEX and grades didnt do very well at all.

Who brings the USMLE curve down for DOs? DOs who take it hoping they will somehow do well on it and therefore help their case for the Allo residency they want. Often backfires.

If you cant do well in school and on COMLEX you wont do well on USMLE.

 

[toothless rufus]

I dont think so.

Good! I wouldn't think so, but what do I know?