I don't understand why a person goes to osteopathic (DO) school but then desperately wants to do an allopathic (MD) residency. There are plenty of osteopathic residency programs out there. Why would a DO applicant apply to IM or peds MD residency when lots of spots are available at DO programs for example? What is the advantage of doing an allopathic residency for them?
Why do DO students want to do allopathic residency?
- Thread starter duckie99
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Lets see, here are a couple that come to mind.
1) Location, the vast majority of DO residencies are in like 3 freakin states.
2) Quality of training, most DO residencies are in small community hospitals with much lower volumes. If you want to see any significant amount of relatively rare pathology, you are better off going MD.
3) Ridiculous CME requirements after finishing residency. Ask about this sometime. Trying to get special category AOA requirements can be a huge pain in the ass. Plus recertifying, relicensing, etc etc is generally more expensive on the DO side of things. Why? I have no freakin clue.
4) Being forced to be a member of the AOA after finishing or you can't be board certified. What better way to make people join your organization than essentially forcing them to?
5) Lac kof fellowship opportunities added to the fact that there is a change being put into effect that bars DOs who completed a DO residency from doing an MD fellowship. Those people who do a DO IM residency and are shooting for cardiology, may the force be with you.
6) Length of training, DO EM residencies are all 4 year, most MD EM residencies are 3.
etc etc etc. But, you get the point.
1) Location, the vast majority of DO residencies are in like 3 freakin states.
2) Quality of training, most DO residencies are in small community hospitals with much lower volumes. If you want to see any significant amount of relatively rare pathology, you are better off going MD.
3) Ridiculous CME requirements after finishing residency. Ask about this sometime. Trying to get special category AOA requirements can be a huge pain in the ass. Plus recertifying, relicensing, etc etc is generally more expensive on the DO side of things. Why? I have no freakin clue.
4) Being forced to be a member of the AOA after finishing or you can't be board certified. What better way to make people join your organization than essentially forcing them to?
5) Lac kof fellowship opportunities added to the fact that there is a change being put into effect that bars DOs who completed a DO residency from doing an MD fellowship. Those people who do a DO IM residency and are shooting for cardiology, may the force be with you.
6) Length of training, DO EM residencies are all 4 year, most MD EM residencies are 3.
etc etc etc. But, you get the point.
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There are not enough AOA spots to accommodate every DO grad
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Can't tell if sarcastic.....
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ACGME-accredited residency programs aren't really "allopathic" or "MD" residencies. They are open to US-trained MD, US-trained DO, IMG and FMG graduates. The confusion I think lies in the fact that AOA-accredited residencies are only open to US-trained DO grads, and therefore could reasonably be called "osteopathic" residencies.
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this is definitely a troll...
this isn't the 1950's, time to give DOs respect and treat them like peers
however, no DO should be talking **** to a MD not even FMGs
my buddy who is a DO brought a girl he was dating who was a DO as well (Western). she made a few comments about FMGs which rustled my jimmies because my parents are FMGs, so i had to remind her of her place in the medical hierarchy. she was pissed that my friend wouldn't defend her, but she didn't know his dad is a FMG too.
i can't remember the exact remarks but this was the general jist:
the reason people hate doctors today is because of FMGs
can u even consider them in the same level as us?
i always know its going to be a terrible experience when i see it is a FMG
CLIFFS: if ur a DO, don't call out FMGs because u might get called out by AMGs
this isn't the 1950's, time to give DOs respect and treat them like peers
however, no DO should be talking **** to a MD not even FMGs
my buddy who is a DO brought a girl he was dating who was a DO as well (Western). she made a few comments about FMGs which rustled my jimmies because my parents are FMGs, so i had to remind her of her place in the medical hierarchy. she was pissed that my friend wouldn't defend her, but she didn't know his dad is a FMG too.
i can't remember the exact remarks but this was the general jist:
the reason people hate doctors today is because of FMGs
can u even consider them in the same level as us?
i always know its going to be a terrible experience when i see it is a FMG
CLIFFS: if ur a DO, don't call out FMGs because u might get called out by AMGs
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if MD = DO as so many people say then why are there sections of the country which will not hire DO's?
You sir need to do some research.
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I don't understand why allopathic students want to do a residency at Harvard. I mean, there are plenty of other residency programs out there. Why would a person apply to Harvard when there are plenty of other spots out there.
but they are at allopathic schools often.
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There aren't, as far as I know. Some hospitals might have a preference, and those preferences might be more common in certain geographic areas, but the caliber of your residency program typically trumps where you went to medical school. And remember, you'll often not notice someone is a DO unless you're actually looking for it. My family doctor was one, but I never knew it until after I applied to medical school and I received a letter from the office.
Board certification through the American Osteopathic Association, however, might be a barrier, which is why people in specialties such as anesthesiology especially want to do an ACGME program.
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Hospitals want to make $ and hire whoever they feel like.
Thinking hospitals care about whether you are an MD or DO means you do not understand hospitals. Hospitals would gladly hire only nurses if they could legally figure out a way to do it and it meant more profit.
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It's no secret that the AOA doesn't have enough available residency positions to accommodate all DO graduates (which is ridiculous, but that's for another discussion I suppose). DO students apply to ACGME residencies because it increases our odds of matching into our specialty of choice. For example, let's say I wanted to match anesthesia. If I only applied to AOA-approved residencies, I would only have about 13 programs to potentially rank; however, if I applied to both AOA- and ACGME-approved residencies, that number jumps up to almost 150 programs. I like those odds a lot better.
Just one student's perspective.
Just one student's perspective.
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MD = DO is the party line we adhere to, like so many other things....what physicians (especially older ones) say in private is a whole 'nother bag of apples.
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This is a worse troll than the OP.
There were posts in the thread I was referenced that stated such (quoted in my post above).
btw: not sure how this is trolling. I posted it in the allopathic board and not osteopathic. Just looking for some discussion is all because I see lots of DO students applying and asking for advice on how to get accepted to MD residencies.
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Uhh there is totally areas of the US where you will not find a single DO in the hospital. Its not because DOs dont want to be there (although in some cases it could be true), but its because of silly old false assumptions by some MDs. For example I was looking at U of Chicago's residency programs a few days ago. Not a single DO in any of the programs that showed resident rosters (or the ones I looked at which the middle to low competitive ones) There is a DO school in chicago and there is NO way DOs have not been applying there as its a great school. Its the sad truth my friend. Not everywhere is like this, and its getting better....but the old timers and the occasional cocky MD student will discriminate.
OP: AOA is an absolute joke. For many reasons listed here.
- a DO student
As for the FMG..... thats a whole 'nother story and joke, but we will leave it at that
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Because there is a fundamental difference between realizing the difference between MD and DO residencies (the fact that MDs can't apply for DO residencies), and between various MD residencies.
I'm not saying that DOs shouldn't apply for MD residencies, infact it helps them just apply more broadly. However, it's silly to insinuate that DOs applying for MD residencies is the same as an MD from hospital X applying for a residency anywhere besides hospital Y.
the "mission of the ACGME is to improve health care by assessing and advancing the quality of resident physicians' education through exemplary accreditation. "
ACGME accredits RESIDENCIES for PHYSICIANS.. (nowhere on its website or anywhere specifically states it accredits "MD" residencies...)
since both MDs and DOs are considered as physicians.. i really don't see the problem of DO's applying to ACGME programs
It is up to the residency's discretion if they want to accept MDs, DOs, or both in their program.
It's similar to hospital accreditations.. there's no MD hospital accreditations nor DO hospital accreditations.. there's just hospital accreditations..
Does discrimination against DO exist? we'll be kidding ourselves to say there isn't.
But personally, the individual physician is far more important than the title behind their name. If a residency decide to pass on a qualified DO applicant simply because he/she does not have a MD behind his/her name will be the residency's lost.
just my 2 cents.
ACGME accredits RESIDENCIES for PHYSICIANS.. (nowhere on its website or anywhere specifically states it accredits "MD" residencies...)
since both MDs and DOs are considered as physicians.. i really don't see the problem of DO's applying to ACGME programs
It is up to the residency's discretion if they want to accept MDs, DOs, or both in their program.
It's similar to hospital accreditations.. there's no MD hospital accreditations nor DO hospital accreditations.. there's just hospital accreditations..
Does discrimination against DO exist? we'll be kidding ourselves to say there isn't.
But personally, the individual physician is far more important than the title behind their name. If a residency decide to pass on a qualified DO applicant simply because he/she does not have a MD behind his/her name will be the residency's lost.
just my 2 cents.
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Easy, killer; I doubt he meant his comments as any kind of personal cut-down.
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You sound pissed, but I have no idea why and where you got that information. I am an out of state student at West Virginia University SOM, which is a solid school, but far from being the most prestigious in the country. However, I would still love to do residency here, and many of my classmates feel the same way.
nice chip on your shoulder. and as others have already pointed out, there is no comparison.
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What an awesome logic....let's treat DOs like equals only so long as they nod their pretty little heads with everything big badass MDs say....if they dare disagree on anything, then let's "remind them of their place in medical heirarchy".
Ease off on the roids bro....
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Reading this, its all tongue in cheek to me. I don't see why everyone is getting upset?
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I think the point was that there was some pot and kettle syndrome going on
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One of my best friends, who is a DO btw, is an anesthesiology resident at UChicago, and he is not the only one. You're wrong my friend.
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I agree prejudice is still very, very high. However, it's slowly breaking down. I've heard varying stories on the quality of the program, but a CCOM student recently matched at U of Chicago's opthalmology program.
I agree about the AOA as well.
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Exactly. It's completely sarcastic.
I think people are getting confused because he said that he isn't trolling. However, people need to realize that trolling =/= sarcasm
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I'm gay for MD residencies because I was born this way.
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Lol your very right. On a daily basis I heard very snide comments about FMGs and oddly very few about DOs during my previous career and this was before I ever decided to go back to medical school.
But does it really matter because the noose is getting so tight for the FMGs that they will be lucky to get the residencies in the middle of nowhere USA anymore lol.
I am pretty liberal but I feel like those students that are AMGs(MD/DO) deserve first shot on the spots while the FMGs get our scraps.
