Why do I not want to apply to top-tier MD schools?

[Fluidity of Movement]

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So I did the Wedgedoc ARS thing, and even a conservative score puts me at over 80. Everyone tells me I should apply to top-tier schools, and not even consider DO.

But I thought that I wanted to be a DO.

So I come here, and every thread points every person towards MD for one reason or another.

I've never cared about prestige or ego, and have no aspirations to be in some super-selective specialty. I'm not going to be but so involved in research, at least not for a while.

I very much see myself as Psych, FP, maybe EM or IM, and likely in rural or underserved areas, or possibly even a dual fp/psych, em/im or some variation.

Wouldn't having a MD from a fancy school hurt my ability to connect with patients (thinking psych here)? Wouldn't I miss out on being mentored by the ones who share my philosophy and goals? What about OMM? It can be a really good alternative.

What do I have to gain from going to a top tier / upper MD school that could outweigh the above? Or am I just over-fantasizing the DO ethos?


Thanks for reading.

 

[mathnerd88]

So I did the Wedgedoc ARS thing, and even a conservative score puts me at over 90. Everyone tells me I should apply to top-tier schools, and not even consider DO.

But I thought that I wanted to be a DO.

So I come here, and every thread points every person towards MD for one reason or another.

I've never cared about prestige or ego, and have no aspirations to be in some super-selective specialty. I'm not going to be but so involved in research, at least not for a while.

I very much see myself as Psych, FP, maybe EM or IM, and likely in rural or underserved areas, or possibly even a dual fp/psych, em/im or some variation.

Wouldn't having a MD from a fancy school hurt my ability to connect with patients (thinking psych here)? Wouldn't I miss out on being mentored by the ones who share my philosophy and goals? What about OMM? It can be a really good alternative.

What do I have to gain from going to a top tier / upper MD school that could outweigh the above? Or am I just over-fantasizing the DO ethos?


Thanks for reading.

You'll get into better residency programs as an MD. It is the path with the least resistance and you get more options. Why put yourself through more work? What if you change your mind later on and want to go to a better program?

If you care about OMM then you can take courses as an MD to get the training.

You might be the one in a million applicant who would prefer going to DO than a top tier MD school. Why would you short yourself from your potential?

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

You'll get into better residency programs as an MD. It is the path with the least resistance and you get more options. Why put yourself through more work? What if you change your mind later on and want to go to a better program?

If you care about OMM then you can take courses as an MD to get the training.

You might be the one in a million applicant who would prefer going to DO than a top tier MD school. Why would you short yourself from your potential?

That's just it, I'm questioning if whether MD would be decreasing my /personal/ potential, not financial / opportunity potential. If DO's are most what I align myself with philosophically, wouldn't I benefit more from my training by being surrounded by them? Wouldn't that make me a more effective physician?

 

[mathnerd88]

That's just it, I'm questioning if whether MD would be decreasing my /personal/ potential, not financial / opportunity potential. If DO's are most what I align myself with philosophically, wouldn't I benefit more from my training by being surrounded by them? Wouldn't that make me a more effective physician?

There's no difference philosophically between MD and DOs. The only difference in curriculum is that you learn OMM as a DO. DOs try to make it sound like they hone in more on prevention, but MDs do it too.

I've shadowed both, and they're all effective physicians. Also, know that everyone is different.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

There's no difference philosophically between MD and DOs. The only difference in curriculum is that you learn OMM as a DO. DOs try to make it sound like they hone in more on prevention, but MDs do it too.

I've shadowed both, and they're all effective physicians.

So everything I've heard about DO is just propoganda? Or marketing?

 

[mathnerd88]

So everything I've heard about DO is just propoganda?

Yes and no. The crucial difference is that you learn OMM, which can help patients and gives you an extra set of tools you can use. As MD, you can learn it too.

Otherwise, the material you learn is exactly the same as MD.

 

[22031 Alum]

That's just it, I'm questioning if whether MD would be decreasing my /personal/ potential, not financial / opportunity potential. If DO's are most what I align myself with philosophically, wouldn't I benefit more from my training by being surrounded by them? Wouldn't that make me a more effective physician?

I've yet to be convinced that there is any magical "philosophy" exclusive to DOs, such that allopathic school would put you at a disadvantage. Maybe when DOs first split, a case could be made that MDs had "forgotten the patient" in favor of nifty scientific techniques... or something. But nowadays, all the buzzwords you associate with DOs, can be applied to MDs as well. So you would not be giving yourself any advantage by choosing DO over MD.

 

[IslandStyle808]

That's just it, I'm questioning if whether MD would be decreasing my /personal/ potential, not financial / opportunity potential. If DO's are most what I align myself with philosophically, wouldn't I benefit more from my training by being surrounded by them? Wouldn't that make me a more effective physician?

I don't believe the differences between DOs and MDs to be that large in which you would gain skills only known by going to a DO school. I am sure you could find MD schools with similar beliefs to your own. For instance if you like prevention, community service, creating strong bond with patients; then a primary care MD school could give those things as well.

You could also go to an MD school, take some OMM sessions/courses, and apply to a residency with osteopathic recognition. I believe you can find multiple paths that coincide with your believes and won't limit your matching potential, which will happen if you go to a DO school.

 

[MADD!!!]

OP-- one question. Why DO over MD for you? I see you said philosophy, but go in a little more detail. People are posting responses based on their own biases/experiences without knowing your circumstance.

First tell us why you want to be a DO specifically and we could give you a better response as to if your reasons are valid or not.

 

[Mad Jack]

So everything I've heard about DO is just propoganda? Or marketing?

It is and it isn't. DO schools tend to draw in more of the honest-to-God hippy types that are all puppies and rainbows and holistic and such. But that's something you bring with you- no curriculum is going to beat that sort of thinking into you, it is something you have or you don't. MD and DO schools probably devote a similar amount of time to the whole "holistic thinking" bit.

The quality of programs to which you can do your residency is substantially affected by whether you go MD or DO. Take it from someone else who felt just like you do and had a LizzyM under the old system of 73 (pretty decent) that could have gotten me into an MD school: the doors you close are bigger than you think, and you might change your mind about what you want to do and be forced to scramble for a way to reopen them. Some of them you'll never be able to reopen. Don't forget that when you're deciding.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

OP-- one question. Why DO over MD for you? I see you said philosophy, but go in a little more detail. People are posting responses based on their own biases/experiences without knowing your circumstance.

First tell us why you want to be a DO specifically and we could give you a better response as to if your reasons are valid or not.

I'm certianly one for nuance and wouldn't intentionally paint with broadstrokes, but as the Dr said the typical buzzwords are really at the core of who I am. It's not a matter of mutual exclusion, since I know that MD will be perfectly amazing in every way, it's just a matter of that small extra /something/, that goes beyond.

I mean, for example, there are some people that won't consider DO simply for the fact that it's not MD and the title recognition. I'm certain it's a minority and frowned upon, but it's /that much more/ that I'd have to deal with from classmates, etc.

I also think about the ratio of schools that will more be in line with my goals, and as mentioned above, there are certainly schools with focus on primary care / prevention / underserved, etc, but then I am limiting myself to those schools, whereas I imagine that most DO schools are like that.


But it is starting to appear to me now that these mantras are more of a coping mechanism for those that are relegated to DO due to poor scores, and not an actual difference. Which is kind of what I was hoping wasn't true, but am glad that it is.

 

[Azete]

I chose DO over an MD acceptance for family/location reasons. If you find a DO school with reputable rotation sites then the quality of training is almost indistinguishable, but there's only a limited number of programs that fit this criteria.

There are plenty of "top-tier" residency programs that are accepting DOs more frequently, but there are just as many that don't and probably won't in the near future. In the end there is no reason to specifically choose DO over MD (definitely do not buy into the "holistic" propaganda), but I also wouldn't choose an MD school over a DO school just for the letters. Weigh the pros and cons of the schools you're accepted to and make the decision based on that; I think far too many pre-meds make the mistake of not applying to any DO schools, even the students with top-tier stats. You don't have to apply to a bunch, but I think attending a DO school in a location you love is better than waiting another year for MD, or in my case attending an MD school in a location my family would have been miserable in.

Also, I think the obsession with top tier residencies on SDN is very over the top. Realistically only 1% of pre-meds should be concerning themselves with these programs, yet it dominates the daily discussion as if everybody here is going to score 250+ on their boards. There is no discernible difference in income post-residency, and the quality of physician you become has far more to do with your dedication to your craft than it does the program you train in.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Thanks all.

 

[mathnerd88]

I chose DO over an MD acceptance for family/location reasons. If you find a DO school with reputable rotation sites then the quality of training is almost indistinguishable, but there's only a limited number of programs that fit this criteria.

There are plenty of "top-tier" residency programs that are accepting DOs more frequently, but there are just as many that don't and probably won't in the near future. In the end there is no reason to specifically choose DO over MD (definitely do not buy into the "holistic" propaganda), but I also wouldn't choose an MD school over a DO school just for the letters. Weigh the pros and cons of the schools you're accepted to and make the decision based on that; I think far too many pre-meds make the mistake of not applying to any DO schools, even the students with top-tier stats. You don't have to apply to a bunch, but I think attending a DO school in a location you love is better than waiting another year for MD, or in my case attending an MD school in a location my family would have been miserable in.

Also, I think the obsession with top tier residencies on SDN is very over the top. Realistically only 1% of pre-meds should be concerning themselves with these programs, yet it dominates the daily discussion as if everybody here is going to score 250+ on their boards. There is no discernible difference in income post-residency, and the quality of physician you become has far more to do with your dedication to your craft than it does the program you train in.

The OP did say top tier MD schools....so I assumed he was going to choose DO over a 'top-tier' MD school. I feel like that's a huge mistake.

 

[WedgeDawg]

"Wedgedoc" really? 😕

I don't know why you think an MD from a top school would make it harder to connect your patients in a specialty like psych. Plenty of MD students all across the board go into psychiatry and are successful physicians in that specialty. You'll have plenty of people who share your goals amongst your fellow students and your faculty mentors alike at MD schools and you'll likely have them at DO schools. Plenty of MD schools, even top MD schools, have programs that work to bring healthcare to the underserved, and many major academic hospitals act as safety net hospitals for people who are un or underinsured.

The biggest reason to go MD over DO if you have the choice is that you're starting ahead in the residency game if you go MD. Doesn't matter if you do or don't do research, doesn't matter if you don't care about competitive specialties. There are programs (not even "top tier" programs whatever that means) that straight up won't interview you if you come from a DO school. Another reason is due to the MD/DO residency merger that is upcoming and has results that I'm not well-read enough to tell you about, but many opinions I've read have said that it will favor MDs in the match (if I'm wrong please correct me - I don't know too much about it).

The reason that is most commonly cited here that DO was chosen over MD when an applicant was accepted to both is location.

The "DO ethos" is a lie in that there is basically a 0% difference between how DOs and MDs practice medicine other than the fact that DO also may choose to incorporate OMM.

If you feel that for some reason DO "fits" your goals more than MD (or top tier MD or whatever), apply to both (all) and make the decision once you have your options, but saying you're going to be choosing between DO and top tier MD right now is a bit silly, regardless of how strong your application is.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Just go MD:

-They have better rotations for sure (top tier MD)
-research
-better residency programs or a greater ability to choose your residency program.

Those three would be my reasons. If you love OMM then do a fellowship afterwards, if you want to be holistic then that's on you personally (basically it's just good medicine).

Oh and the philosophy doesn't really exist anymore. (See above in parentheses)

 

[Dr. Death]

If it really doesnt matter to you, and it seems like it doesn't, then go to whichever school is cheaper

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

"Wedgedoc" really? 😕

The bane of humanity: none can pick their nicknames ^-^()


Thanks everyone again.

 

[Goro]

In a nutshell, your career options are greater as an MD, and you won't have to work as hard getting a good residency as many DO grads do.

After teaching at a DO school for > 15 years now (!) and listening to a good many sage MDs here (including the wise 22031 Alum), I'm more inclined to think if a DO states that they have something than MDs lack, my response is: "data please". And frankly, it's insulting to our MD colleagues that DOs are more holistic than MDs.

That said, if you haven't done so already, shadow some DOs and MDs, compare and contrast them and see what you think. If you're within driving distance of a DO school, go visit and chat up the DO faculty.

Then decide. I have had students who have turned down MD schools (including Northwestern, for one) for us.

So I did the Wedgedoc ARS thing, and even a conservative score puts me at over 80. Everyone tells me I should apply to top-tier schools, and not even consider DO.

But I thought that I wanted to be a DO.

So I come here, and every thread points every person towards MD for one reason or another.

I've never cared about prestige or ego, and have no aspirations to be in some super-selective specialty. I'm not going to be but so involved in research, at least not for a while.

I very much see myself as Psych, FP, maybe EM or IM, and likely in rural or underserved areas, or possibly even a dual fp/psych, em/im or some variation.

Wouldn't having a MD from a fancy school hurt my ability to connect with patients (thinking psych here)? Wouldn't I miss out on being mentored by the ones who share my philosophy and goals? What about OMM? It can be a really good alternative.

What do I have to gain from going to a top tier / upper MD school that could outweigh the above? Or am I just over-fantasizing the DO ethos?


Thanks for reading.

 

[DrMikeP]

As stated repeatedly, the big difference is opportunity is greater/easier with MD but DO's have OMM as a tool built into their training. Shadowing is an excellent recommendation. I personally find DO physicians to be a bit less focused on symptom management/treatment and more open to holistic patient care, but I know quite a few MD's who approach similarly.

A smart move can be apply to both and after interviews pick the best fit.

 

[Azete]

The OP did say top tier MD schools....so I assumed he was going to choose DO over a 'top-tier' MD school. I feel like that's a huge mistake.

Yeah most likely, but different people value different things. For example, UPenn is a far better school than the DO school I'm attending -- it's not even close in any category. Even if I was accepted there, though, I would have made the same decision because I've lived in Philadelphia before and I don't think it's an ideal environment to raise a family. Maybe an MD school would have opened more doors, but as long as I receive adequate training, prestige means very little to me (especially when there's no pay gap).

 

[22031 Alum]

The quality of programs to which you can do your residency is substantially affected by whether you go MD or DO. Take it from someone else who felt just like you do and had a LizzyM under the old system of 73 (pretty decent) that could have gotten me into an MD school: the doors you close are bigger than you think, and you might change your mind about what you want to do and be forced to scramble for a way to reopen them. Some of them you'll never be able to reopen. Don't forget that when you're deciding.

Quoted for truth. I'd hate to see someone close doors for themselves without a good reason.

The "DO ethos" is a lie in that there is basically a 0% difference between how DOs and MDs practice medicine other than the fact that DO also may choose to incorporate OMM.

I recently caught up with a med school friend (MD) who is a PCP. She uses OMM in her practice after doing some sort of course. I can't comment on how "legit" her OMM is compared to a DO's, but she says it has increased her draw in the area, and of course helps her patients. So even the choice/ability to use this extra tool is not a DO exclusive.

 

[Mad Jack]

Quoted for truth. I'd hate to see someone close doors for themselves without a good reason.



I recently caught up with a med school friend (MD) who is a PCP. She uses OMM in her practice after doing some sort of course. I can't comment on how "legit" her OMM is compared to a DO's, but she says it has increased her draw in the area, and of course helps her patients. So even the choice/ability to use this extra tool is not a DO exclusive.

OMM isn't that hard- we offer one year fellowships to MDs and DOs that teach you everything you need. You can learn the major stuff in a 2,000 hour fellowship easily.

 

[Medschoolornah]

edit

 

[DrMikeP]

How are you smart enough to get into a top tier med school but dumb enough to make this thread?

We're assuming op is truly accurate in having the choice vs just being told by "everyone." Without detailed stats, LORs, ecs, etc we could be chasing another DO vs MD thread. Just a consideration.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[mathnerd88]

Yeah most likely, but different people value different things. For example, UPenn is a far better school than the DO school I'm attending -- it's not even close in any category. Even if I was accepted there, though, I would have made the same decision because I've lived in Philadelphia before and I don't think it's an ideal environment to raise a family. Maybe an MD school would have opened more doors, but as long as I receive adequate training, prestige means very little to me (especially when there's no pay gap).

You know, these prestigious MD schools allow you to have a better shot at better residency programs.

This translates to working anywhere you really want, even the most desirable locations when it comes to finding a job. This is just my honest opinion though.

 

[JW2020]

OP I also think you'd be kicking yourself when you choose DO and you realize you'll have to take two board exams instead of just Step. Also, as someone who goes to a DO school I'll be the first to tell you the training in terms of learning to interact with patients, being respectful and empathetic, the "treating the patient not the symptoms" tagline, etc is no different than what you will get at an MD school. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy at my school so far and am thankful to be here. But an MD school, especially upper tier, is a no brainer if you have the stats. At the end of the day, it's up to you to decide the type of physician you want to be, and whether you went MD vs DO will be irrelevant.

 

[235009]

Shadowing to try and figure this out is a terrible suggestion. Doctors are individuals regardless of the letters behind their name. You can't pigeonhole all MDs or DOs. I have worked with MDs who approach patients very differently. There is no one correct approach and you get to mold your style. Not to mention that as a pre-med you don't really know how to put the patient interactions you are seeing in context.

Other than family/location obligations there is no reason for you to even consider applying to DO schools. Don't waste your time and money. If you don't want to go to a "top tier" MD school then go to your state school or look closely at schools' missions to decide which is the best fit.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[FrkyBgStok]

you can read threads all you want, but nobody knows you like you do. Many people choose DO over MD that get accepted to both for one reason or another. One of my good friends applied to med school with the sole purpose of doing an OMM fellowship and applying to PM&R to have all the tools in his bag that he can. For him, I would say DO over MD. But this is an n=1. If you are so set on doing something, and that something involves OMM in some way, definitely go to a DO school over an MD school. But understand that every decision has consequences. If you change your mind, how are you going to feel? MD keeps options open, there is no doubt about that, but at some level that doesn't matter.

 

[235009]

Very few people choose DO over MD that get accepted to both for one reason or another.

Fixed that for you

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[AlteredScale]

Despite the fact that the ACGME has "accepted" an osteopathic committee on their governing body, there will be a point where those leaders will question "why are we approving a method of treatment that has very weak to essentially no evidence backing it's efficacy?" and that "let me go DO to pursue PMNR" route will be absolutely meaningless.

 

[DrMikeP]

As expected this has become MD vs DO

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[Azete]

Despite the fact that the ACGME has "accepted" an osteopathic committee on their governing body, there will be a point where those leaders will question "why are we approving a method of treatment that has very weak to essentially no evidence backing it's efficacy?" and that "let me go DO to pursue PMNR" route will be absolutely meaningless.

I agree with you 100%, and a lot of OMM is straight bull****. That said, I think some treatments with a lot of anecdotal evidence are too easily dismissed because nobody has found the time/funding to prove the efficacy. Lack-of-evidence has become synonymous with voodoo and in some cases people are being a little too close-minded, in my opinion.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I agree with you 100%, and a lot of OMM is straight bull****. That said, I think some treatments with a lot of anecdotal evidence are too easily dismissed because nobody has found the time/funding to prove the efficacy. Lack-of-evidence has become synonymous with voodoo and in some cases people are being a little too close-minded, in my opinion.

I think it is better to say they don't want to test it rigorously, because they don't want to be wrong. There are doctors out there who either believe in certain treatments so much they don't care if the evidence is weak or they see it as a cash cow.

 

[Hopefuldoc100]

That's just it, I'm questioning if whether MD would be decreasing my /personal/ potential, not financial / opportunity potential. If DO's are most what I align myself with philosophically, wouldn't I benefit more from my training by being surrounded by them? Wouldn't that make me a more effective physician?

Stop. Just stop.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

.

 

[MADD!!!]

I'm certianly one for nuance and wouldn't intentionally paint with broadstrokes, but as the Dr said the typical buzzwords are really at the core of who I am. It's not a matter of mutual exclusion, since I know that MD will be perfectly amazing in every way, it's just a matter of that small extra /something/, that goes beyond.

I mean, for example, there are some people that won't consider DO simply for the fact that it's not MD and the title recognition. I'm certain it's a minority and frowned upon, but it's /that much more/ that I'd have to deal with from classmates, etc.

I also think about the ratio of schools that will more be in line with my goals, and as mentioned above, there are certainly schools with focus on primary care / prevention / underserved, etc, but then I am limiting myself to those schools, whereas I imagine that most DO schools are like that.


But it is starting to appear to me now that these mantras are more of a coping mechanism for those that are relegated to DO due to poor scores, and not an actual difference. Which is kind of what I was hoping wasn't true, but am glad that it is.

I concur. Take the MD acceptance, mainly because you have nothing to lose going the MD route, BUT you MAY have something to lose going the DO route.

 

[GrapesofRath]

When people say weigh the pro's and con's for choosing MD vs DO sit back and think first what are the pro's of a decision for choosing a DO over an MD? Significant family obligations and that like can be one. Beyond that realm/general area, what else is there? That's really what you have to think about and the more you do the more youll realize that's where it starts coming up empty. Like others have said the idea you gain something going DO you cant MD is just a false narrative. So really framing this discussion as a "decision" to make can be a disingenuous way of doing things as if there is a choice that needs to be made.

One quick thing Ill bring up is people like to make this MD vs DO discussion about "Well a DO will just make it hard to gun for certain specialities". Youll hear people start then using the logic "Well I wasnt interested in a top speciality or dont think Id be competitive anyway so DO vs MD doesnt really matter". It does though. The quality of the program you match into is significantly affected by DO vs MD. You name a field, youll find many programs that wont even look at a DO. And these are hardly just neurosurg, plastics etc. Even in primary care, youll hear those who have a career in that area tell you even the more "middle" tier programs that will consider a DO are more the exception to the rule than the norm.

We can often talk ourselves into to doing many things in the name of "being happy" "living life" "feeling free" etc. As long as we feel happy, we can always find a way to try and justify a decision to ourselves. There are people who will justify forking over 250+k extra to turn down their state school just to leave state and go to a similar quality med school every single year as an example.

At some point though you simply have to evaluate what is practical and what isnt. There are somethings that are truly a "decision". When the differences between MD and DO are what they are, this shouldnt be one of them. Rather it should be about doing what will be best for your long term aspirations and your career over the next 40 years.