Why do med schools give need based scholarships?

[NickNaylor]

I was making a point that in terms of social mobility, financial aid to medical students is ineffective because you are giving money to people who will be very successful regardless of whether or not that aid is given to them.

I think you're seriously underestimating how difficult it is to recruit potential lower SES applicants to medical school. Just look at the demographic data for matriculants. Despite all of these supposedly wonderful programs, a healthy majority of matriculants come from the top quintile of household income.

I suppose you're right in a sense, but these programs are not so much about broader social justice as they are recruiting certain segments of the population that have traditionally been excluded from this pathway. This is done in the belief that these individuals will be able to better serve those same segments of the population that have been traditionally failed by the medical establishment. Whether you agree that that is effective or not is another matter, but I think it's important that we understand what the goal of the programs is.


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[lmn]

What are you talking about?

"The ppl on the forum against need based aid are the ones whose parents are doctors, they take vacations abroad annually, and they backpack ppl"

This is such a hugely incorrect generalization. Because someone disagrees with how need-based aid is delivered in medical school they must be from richy richy doctor parents, spoiled rotten, and selfish?? Not only is it completely untrue that everyone who has issue with need-based aid has come from rich, doctor backgrounds, but just the premise that these people must be spoiled and selfish to disagree with the way need-based aid is handled for med schools is so childish. I doubt you will find any financial aid department at a medical school who thinks need-based aid is run or delivered perfectly, heck you could ask any med student and they would know of someone who is getting little to no need-based aid but doesn't even have the slightest possibility to borrow from their parents like schools assume.

You are literally calling groups such as non-trads who have absolutely no financial relationship with their parents and have been supporting themselves and their families for years, selfish and shallow for thinking that it is unfair that one of their younger classmates gets a full ride while they struggle to take on loans and support themselves and their families throughout school, residency, and fellowships. Need-based aid is hardly delivered in a completely fair way, and that's because it is absurdly hard for financial aid offices to guess everyone's situations unless they had interviews with them and their families in addition to all of their financial information. Need-based is really a best guess game based of some numbers on tax returns, etc. and some get lucky and get to become a physician with little to no debt, while others will have to work to pay of that debt for decades simply because their parents have a bit more wealth and the financial aid staff assumes that they can help the students which is clearly not always the case.

I am not against need-based aid in any way, I definitely agree it does great things for people, but I believe they delivery method is extremely flawed and would hope that financial aid departments around the country are constantly working on better ways to deliver aid more accurately and with more of a holistic methodology so that people get essentially screwed with debt for decades when others get to walk away completely debt free.

 

[waiting too long]

I find it interesting that other professional schools (law school) do NOT accept parental income on the FAFSA as the students are now independent! I think people who expect financial aid "grants" are perpetuating the entitlement mentality that someone else will pay for their school. Also, realize that the med students who have some help from their parents, no one can really afford to pay the entire cost of med school, so the bit parents give might be small after helping them with their undergrad. Remember if you have loans from med school, that the interest from the loans WILL NOT be tax deductible as you will be making too much money, and after paying off your own loans, you will have kids that go to med school that you will then be expected to pay for them because you "can afford it".

 

[Espadaleader]

"The ppl on the forum against need based aid are the ones whose parents are doctors, they take vacations abroad annually, and they backpack ppl"

This is such a hugely incorrect generalization. Because someone disagrees with how need-based aid is delivered in medical school they must be from richy richy doctor parents, spoiled rotten, and selfish?? Not only is it completely untrue that everyone who has issue with need-based aid has come from rich, doctor backgrounds, but just the premise that these people must be spoiled and selfish to disagree with the way need-based aid is handled for med schools is so childish. I doubt you will find any financial aid department at a medical school who thinks need-based aid is run or delivered perfectly, heck you could ask any med student and they would know of someone who is getting little to no need-based aid but doesn't even have the slightest possibility to borrow from their parents like schools assume.

You are literally calling groups such as non-trads who have absolutely no financial relationship with their parents and have been supporting themselves and their families for years, selfish and shallow for thinking that it is unfair that one of their younger classmates gets a full ride while they struggle to take on loans and support themselves and their families throughout school, residency, and fellowships. Need-based aid is hardly delivered in a completely fair way, and that's because it is absurdly hard for financial aid offices to guess everyone's situations unless they had interviews with them and their families in addition to all of their financial information. Need-based is really a best guess game based of some numbers on tax returns, etc. and some get lucky and get to become a physician with little to no debt, while others will have to work to pay of that debt for decades simply because their parents have a bit more wealth and the financial aid staff assumes that they can help the students which is clearly not always the case.

I am not against need-based aid in any way, I definitely agree it does great things for people, but I believe they delivery method is extremely flawed and would hope that financial aid departments around the country are constantly working on better ways to deliver aid more accurately and with more of a holistic methodology so that people get essentially screwed with debt for decades when others get to walk away completely debt free.

Yeah, if that person grew up in that parents household than they already have benefited from the resources of their parents. You're not getting that. The resources that a wealthy family is able to give their children is much more than the lack of need based aid generally. Yes, your parents may not pay for your medical school, but they paid to put you through private school K-12, fed you, brought you up in a safe environment etc. You're complaining? I would much rather be in their position.

 

[OrgasmicChemistry]

I suppose you're right in a sense, but these programs are not so much about broader social justice as they are recruiting certain segments of the population that have traditionally been excluded from this pathway.

You've made an interesting and relevant point here... kudos, you're the exception to the rule in this thread.

I'd add one caveat: it's about recruiting students to go to the medical schools, not necessarily that they're expected to go back and serve underpriveledged areas. I don't think it's a leap to presume that people who saw their parents take out a mountain of debt and come out the other side with a nice house, car, etc. are more inclined to be comfortable taking out that much debt than someone who saw their parents struggle to put food on the table. I just think medical school is an easier sale to people who have some experience with the financial benefits it can bring.

I find it interesting that other professional schools (law school) do NOT accept parental income on the FAFSA

They may not require it on the FAFSA.... But they do require it on needaccess if you're trying to get any institutional aid

This is the same policy as many, many medical schools

 

[OrgasmicChemistry]

Don't be jelly.

There needs to be more of this in the world... and much more of it in this thread

 

[moop]

 

[lmn]

Yeah, if that person grew up in that parents household than they already have benefited from the resources of their parents. You're not getting that. The resources that a wealthy family is able to give their children is much more than the lack of need based aid generally. Yes, your parents may not pay for your medical school, but they paid to put you through private school K-12, fed you, brought you up in a safe environment etc. You're complaining? I would much rather be in their position.

By what you're describing this is no longer need-based aid. This is some sort of sorry you had a tougher life donation in that case. Need-based aid is supposed to open opportunities for people that wouldn't otherwise be able to pursue them. Undergrad need-based aid for example let's students pursue higher education when they would otherwise not be able to afford it, but going to college doesn't guarantee you will make a nice salary once you graduate, so especially for private universities it is needed so that these students can go to school without worrying that they will never be able to pay off the loans.

Med school on the other hand, by the time they have made it to being admitted they have already undergone the majority of barriers that would have prevented them from becoming a physician, further they know once they graduate and complete residency that they are basically guaranteed a salary well over $100k for the rest of their life. As soon as you enter medical school (bar failing out or something rather absurd), you know that you will soon have a stable career and a large salary and be able to pay off any medical school loans, this is not the same case as undergrad. The exception maybe being primary care in rural areas, but that is an entirely different topic and need for financial support in the form of scholarships/etc. Again, this is not to say that need-based aid shouldn't exist, the prices of medical school are ridiculous high, paired with long residencies/fellowships that prevent you from paying off the loans in a quick fashion means that unassisted, students will generate enormous amounts of debt by the time they reach an attending level. But my view point is that many students need financial assistance, if you aren't already rich or if you don't have parents that are able/willing to assist you, you are going to be stuck in that situation of huge debt regardless of your upbringing. Currently need-based aid helps a lot of those people overcome the debt by minimizing it from the start, but there are still others that don't qualify for help by current standards and essentially get stuck with huge debt because they have parents that the school feels should be obligated to help them? That imo, is very flawed reasoning and justification that leads to flawed deliverance of aid in some cases.

I personally do not see need-based aid as some sort of compensation for having less than ideal upbringings, I don't believe it is the medical schools job to apologize in the form of financial assistance for this reason. If anything I think that should be more merit based for being qualified for medical school despite adverse conditions. I really believe that need-based aid should be to help people attend medical school without financially sinking their boat, and that more work could be done to help everyone that needs aid, not just ones that have less wealth parents.

 

[BamaNicole]

I'll just throw my two cents in.....

Need based aid helps students from low SES backgrounds even think that med school is a feasiable. Here's a personal example....I come from a single parent home where my mom never made above 20k. I always did well in school and wanted to be a doctor. I always second guessed even trying for med school because of the cost alone. I had no one to help me. Knowing that there is at least some need based aid out there helped me move forward with something I always wanted to do but thought it was impossible.
Not having money, not coming from
Money can change your outlook on education when you see the price tag.

 

[stupid9234]

As someone who receives a lot of aid (75% of nearly 60k tuition+fees), I have to agree. I'm lucky because my parents help me and are pretty poor. But think of someone who has parents that don't help them and are rich? They will have to not only pay a lot more, but take out loans for interest too. I personally think the money should be used to lower total costs for everyone, but hey.... it's the schools' decision.

 

[ridethecliche]

So I have a bit of a gripe! I'm not trying to act entitled or complain-y and yet I want to vent so here goes:

Why do med schools give need based scholarships?!? Except for maybe the VERY rich, nobody's parents are paying for their school anyway! Regardless if your parents make 10K or 100K you're going to be taking out loans for all of your med school expenses either way. They're not gonna just hand you 40 grand a year. I'm taking out loans for every expense. If my parents were making 10 dollars a year I would be getting aid but now I'm not. How exactly does that make sense??? Shouldn't all scholarships be merit based?

So basically you doing what you said you weren't trying to after all. Carry on then.

 

[ace12345]

As someone who receives a lot of aid (75% of nearly 60k tuition+fees), I have to agree. I'm lucky because my parents help me and are pretty poor. But think of someone who has parents that don't help them and are rich? They will have to not only pay a lot more, but take out loans for interest too. I personally think the money should be used to lower total costs for everyone, but hey.... it's the schools' decision.

I have to disagree and say it's the parents decision. Let's say one's parents have the money and a student makes a plan explaining to their parents, "Hey, loans are crazy right now. I'm going to be paying 6.75% interest on Grad Plus from year one plus a 4% entrance fee, and that sucks. It's going to be detrimental to family economics as a whole. How do you feel about loaning be X dollars and I will pay you back according to inflation later?"

If the parent's have the money, they could easily take this deal. They would probably be proud of their child for even being so financially conscious. If they say no, guess what that's the parent's decision. That is the family's decision, and medical school are distributing these loans based on the financial situations of families.

 

[Purplownz]

If nobody needed to submit parental information, everybody would look exactly the same (or very similarly) on paper (e.g no assets and necessitating a full need-based grant). How many people do you think would be honest and say, "yeah, my parents are willing to pay for my medical school tuition."

 

[BamaNicole]

If nobody needed to submit parental information, everybody would look exactly the same (or very similarly) on paper (e.g no assets and necessitating a full need-based grant). How many people do you think would be honest and say, "yeah, my parents are willing to pay for my medical school tuition."

But you see they would have the ability to help you. There are those who have families that literally cannot help them in any shape or form.

 

[lmn]

I have to disagree and say it's the parents decision. Let's say one's parents have the money and a student makes a plan explaining to their parents, "Hey, loans are crazy right now. I'm going to be paying 6.75% interest on Grad Plus from year one plus a 4% entrance fee, and that sucks. It's going to be detrimental to family economics as a whole. How do you feel about loaning be X dollars and I will pay you back according to inflation later?"

If the parent's have the money, they could easily take this deal. They would probably be proud of their child for even being so financially conscious. If they say no, guess what that's the parent's decision. That is the family's decision, and medical school are distributing these loans based on the financial situations of families.

Yet there are many, many cases where this ideal situation doesn't work. I have had schools tell our interview groups that they really needed to try to get the information from a divorced parent even if they have had absolutely no relationship with that parent all their life, some basically told us that short of extremely abusive situations they required everyone get parental information to be considered. Even if these people managed to convince these parents to give their information, do you really think that it is realistic to expect a student to call their rich father who has never been in their life and ask for a cheaper loan? Please. There are so many other situations as well where having this kind of conversation, much less having the parents agree, is completely unrealistic and yet the schools assume since the financial information says the parents have money - the student should be able to get it from them. Your idea (and the idea many schools operate on) works great for families with wealth and great relationships between the parents and children, but it is such an ideal situation that doesn't work or make sense for so many students.

 

[familyaerospace]

My family is on SNAP. My father is retired (no income at all). My mother makes 30K a year. All I know is with both my parents, my income, and my spouse's income, 12K is what the feds think my family based contribution should be. I have to wonder how on earth they calculate that.

And I already have 95K in debt from college.

I hope if some school actually accepts me, that there is some need based aid as I actually want to serve in an underserved area ideally primary care.

I don't believe anyone who says medical schools are actually trying to recruit SES students. I haven't seen it in my three years of applying.

 

[Purplownz]

But you see they would have the ability to help you. There are those who have families that literally cannot help them in any shape or form.

I agree. That's my point. Although the current system isn't perfect, it allows for schools to get a general idea of who has at least SOME financial support to lean on. In any alternate distribution process everybody would throw their hands up and say they can't pay, thus making it very challenging to target your limited funds towards students who wouldn't be able to attend without help. In regards to estranged parents, if they haven't been in your life you can get a waiver:

http://hms.harvard.edu/sites/defaul...on for Waiver of Noncustodial Parent Info.pdf

 

[ace12345]

Yet there are many, many cases where this ideal situation doesn't work. I have had schools tell our interview groups that they really needed to try to get the information from a divorced parent even if they have had absolutely no relationship with that parent all their life, some basically told us that short of extremely abusive situations they required everyone get parental information to be considered. Even if these people managed to convince these parents to give their information, do you really think that it is realistic to expect a student to call their rich father who has never been in their life and ask for a cheaper loan? Please. There are so many other situations as well where having this kind of conversation, much less having the parents agree, is completely unrealistic and yet the schools assume since the financial information says the parents have money - the student should be able to get it from them. Your idea (and the idea many schools operate on) works great for families with wealth and great relationships between the parents and children, but it is such an ideal situation that doesn't work or make sense for so many students.

Oh come on now. You're saying that there are many, many situations in which a wealthy, divorced, biological parent is completely outside of the acceptable range of contact for a medical student? And that since this wealthy, biological parent is divorced they would therefore break off their relationship with their child and not be willing to contribute. First, I think this situation is less common than you think. Second, that's the family's decision! Does this happen sometimes? Sure. I highly doubt, though, that this is a frequent occurrence. Better question: How often do you think do think this situation happens to students from underserved areas? I don't mean a divorced, wealthy parent, I mean one of lesser means that may be incarcerated/dead/completely disappeared? Which do you think is more common? Should this student and the former be viewed the same? Maybe medical school don't get it right every time, but I think they succeed more than they fail here.

Anyway, you're missing the point BamaNicole made earlier (Or at least my own reading of it based on my experiences). Being from a low socioeconomic completely changes your vision of everything. Students from middle-to-upper class backgrounds think that everyone dreams the same dreams, but it isn't like that at all. The whole concept of life and money and survival is so completely different. Maybe the kid you're describing can call up their parents, ask for help, and get turned down. That is completely different than hearing your mom cry, saying she wishes she could help but she can't. Seeing that need-based aid is the world too them. They don't feel like they need to feel bad anymore. It provides a sense of gratification and safety to the family that others simply cannot understand. As weird as it sounds, students that are turned down on loans from their parents are privileged enough to be turned down. They know and the student knows that if things hit the fan it will be okay. Not everyone has that.

 

[db1210]

I come from a low income family and I have my tuition waived because of it. The idea behind some need-based aid is that by helping these future physicians out, they will help those that are from lower income communities like they were. I think there is some truth to this. However, the average family income of medical students is rising, with most coming from families making more than 100k a year.

https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf

Also, here is an article from Quebec (if you read French or prefer to translate).

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/e...-4764245-elitistes-les-etudes-en-medecine.php

The article makes a point that trying to entice low income students into medical school is not working. Low income children need to be reached earlier if they are to be competitive and be admitted to medical school. Medical school students do not reflect the population. How to really address this though...

 

[stupid9234]

I have to disagree and say it's the parents decision. Let's say one's parents have the money and a student makes a plan explaining to their parents, "Hey, loans are crazy right now. I'm going to be paying 6.75% interest on Grad Plus from year one plus a 4% entrance fee, and that sucks. It's going to be detrimental to family economics as a whole. How do you feel about loaning be X dollars and I will pay you back according to inflation later?"

If the parent's have the money, they could easily take this deal. They would probably be proud of their child for even being so financially conscious. If they say no, guess what that's the parent's decision. That is the family's decision, and medical school are distributing these loans based on the financial situations of families.

So me, a poor student, would have to pay back 12k, whereas a rich kid would have to pay back 60k. Yikes.

 

[chenzt]

My family is on SNAP. My father is retired (no income at all). My mother makes 30K a year. All I know is with both my parents, my income, and my spouse's income, 12K is what the feds think my family based contribution should be. I have to wonder how on earth they calculate that.

And I already have 95K in debt from college.

I hope if some school actually accepts me, that there is some need based aid as I actually want to serve in an underserved area ideally primary care.

I don't believe anyone who says medical schools are actually trying to recruit SES students. I haven't seen it in my three years of applying.

You have a spouse who will make an income that you can rely on while in medical school... (Unless she will also matriculate to med school within the next year or two) No wonder they calculated to 12k. If you are really worried about cost and want to go into primary care, then apply NHSC.

 

[ace12345]

So me, a poor student, would have to pay back 12k, whereas a rich kid would have to pay back 60k. Yikes.

Haha I didn't say I agreed with the federal government's treatment of graduate medical education and interest rates overall. That's part of what I don't understand. People shouldn't be getting mad at schools for providing need-based aid, they should be getting mad at the loan system that is taking them for a ride.

 

[familyaerospace]

You have a spouse who will make an income that you can rely on while in medical school... (Unless she will also matriculate to med school within the next year or two) No wonder they calculated to 12k. If you are really worried about cost and want to go into primary care, then apply NHSC.

My spouse does not make that much money and is nearing retirement age. We make so little that we are on the full amount of food stamps one can get. We were living out of a van for a year and a half.

Not everyone gets into NHSC which I have already looked into every one of the past three years.

 

[lmn]

Oh come on now. You're saying that there are many, many situations in which a wealthy, divorced, biological parent is completely outside of the acceptable range of contact for a medical student? And that since this wealthy, biological parent is divorced they would therefore break off their relationship with their child and not be willing to contribute. First, I think this situation is less common than you think. Second, that's the family's decision! Does this happen sometimes? Sure. I highly doubt, though, that this is a frequent occurrence. Better question: How often do you think do think this situation happens to students from underserved areas? I don't mean a divorced, wealthy parent, I mean one of lesser means that may be incarcerated/dead/completely disappeared? Which do you think is more common? Should this student and the former be viewed the same? Maybe medical school don't get it right every time, but I think they succeed more than they fail here.

Anyway, you're missing the point BamaNicole made earlier (Or at least my own reading of it based on my experiences). Being from a low socioeconomic completely changes your vision of everything. Students from middle-to-upper class backgrounds think that everyone dreams the same dreams, but it isn't like that at all. The whole concept of life and money and survival is so completely different. Maybe the kid you're describing can call up their parents, ask for help, and get turned down. That is completely different than hearing your mom cry, saying she wishes she could help but she can't. Seeing that need-based aid is the world too them. They don't feel like they need to feel bad anymore. It provides a sense of gratification and safety to the family that others simply cannot understand. As weird as it sounds, students that are turned down on loans from their parents are privileged enough to be turned down. They know and the student knows that if things hit the fan it will be okay. Not everyone has that.

I said OTHER situations, not something like 10% of students are facing this exact situation. There are a myriad of other situations, and of course it never is a huge proportion of people who have each of these situations, but why should they receive no aid and have to suffer when someone else receives something like full COA aid? You can say it's a family decision till your face turns blue, but does that even slightly change the fact that these people are getting the extremely raw end of the deal and that in many cases will now graduate with >$300k in loans and ending up paying much, much more after all the interest and taxes?

I have never stated that the system doesn't work for many, but your reasoning is that it works a good enough amount of time and what? Sorry for people that it fails, sucks to be you? My argument is that although it may work great for a majority of cases, it still greatly fails for a number of students who really deserve and need aid. It is completely unfair that they are missing out on need-based aid if they don't fit the ideal situation of parents/relatives lending them money/paying their tuition. I really believe schools should be more proactive in finding out how to identify these types of people and deliver them aid to ease their debt - especially since we are experiencing a huge primary care doctor shortage in many areas and not giving aid to these types of people essential bars them from choosing primary care due to the fact that it would take many decades for them to pay off the debt (if they can), and severely restricts their ability to have any kind of a family or life due to the pressure of a huge debt.

I am definitely not arguing that absolutely everyone should receive need-based aid, nor that it is wrong for some to receive more aid than others, but wouldn't you agree that it would better to reduce a bit of the aid from some receiving full scholarships so that additional aid could be giving to those who wouldn't receive anything originally - despite their untraditional need? Although the necessary methods to identify this need may not be currently in place, it is my opinion that this should be an extremely high priority of schools to put into action, and that the students that fall through the cracks currently (no matter how small the overall number) deserve to not be just written off as an unfortunate case.

 

[shiftingmirage]

Yeah, if that person grew up in that parents household than they already have benefited from the resources of their parents. You're not getting that. The resources that a wealthy family is able to give their children is much more than the lack of need based aid generally. Yes, your parents may not pay for your medical school, but they paid to put you through private school K-12, fed you, brought you up in a safe environment etc. You're complaining? I would much rather be in their position.

Having wealthy parents doesn't make one immune from bad things. Children of wealthy parents are emotionally, physically, and sexually abused. They suffer from debilitating medical conditions. They are susceptible to tragic accidents. They are bullied because they are fat, ugly, LGBQT, less rich than the other rich kids, have a different religion. They have unplanned pregnancies. They have family problems - death, divorce, infidelity, addiction, mental disease. Turn on a TV. What would it be like to be Chelsea Clinton as her father's affairs are publicly investigated? How about Charlie Sheen's children? North West? Her mother is most famous for a sex tape.

I'm not trying to rally sympathy for the wealthy, I'm just saying that this default position that anyone from money has a perfect life is often false.

 

[speedyxx626]

My household family income was 40k last year. When I first started college my family was making 26k a year. You're telling me that you don't see a good reason for a student coming from my economic background to receive any kind of need based money? Yes, we're all going to end up owing money in the end and we'll make more than enough to pay it off, but I know that I had to put in a bit of extra work than some (if not most students) who's parents make a decent living.
I'm sure you would agree that someone coming from a family that's a little more well off also probably knows a couple physicians (or the parents themselves are physicians) so they were better able to familiarize themselves with the entire process of building your way up to a medical student, had better/more shadowing opportunities and had more time to buff up their application (since they didn't have to maintain a job while going to school full time). I'm not saying that I'm entitled to any money but I'm a bit offended when somebody else that was a bit luckier than I am in terms of finances doesn't like that after all I've gone through to end up where I am I shouldn't get a little money to help me out.

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[chenzt]

I said OTHER situations, not something like 10% of students are facing this exact situation. There are a myriad of other situations, and of course it never is a huge proportion of people who have each of these situations, but why should they receive no aid and have to suffer when someone else receives something like full COA aid? You can say it's a family decision till your face turns blue, but does that even slightly change the fact that these people are getting the extremely raw end of the deal and that in many cases will now graduate with >$300k in loans and ending up paying much, much more after all the interest and taxes?

I have never stated that the system doesn't work for many, but your reasoning is that it works a good enough amount of time and what? Sorry for people that it fails, sucks to be you? My argument is that although it may work great for a majority of cases, it still greatly fails for a number of students who really deserve and need aid. It is completely unfair that they are missing out on need-based aid if they don't fit the ideal situation of parents/relatives lending them money/paying their tuition. I really believe schools should be more proactive in finding out how to identify these types of people and deliver them aid to ease their debt - especially since we are experiencing a huge primary care doctor shortage in many areas and not giving aid to these types of people essential bars them from choosing primary care due to the fact that it would take many decades for them to pay off the debt (if they can), and severely restricts their ability to have any kind of a family or life due to the pressure of a huge debt.

I am definitely not arguing that absolutely everyone should receive need-based aid, nor that it is wrong for some to receive more aid than others, but wouldn't you agree that it would better to reduce a bit of the aid from some receiving full scholarships so that additional aid could be giving to those who wouldn't receive anything originally - despite their untraditional need? Although the necessary methods to identify this need may not be currently in place, it is my opinion that this should be an extremely high priority of schools to put into action, and that the students that fall through the cracks currently (no matter how small the overall number) deserve to not be just written off as an unfortunate case.

What do you propose instead that can help those that are getting screwed while at the same time not screw over any new set of people?

 

[lmn]

What do you propose instead that can help those that are getting screwed while at the same time not screw over any new set of people?

Quite frankly, a revamp on the way they evaluate and assess students needs in a more holistic way than here is what they and their parents make. Surely this isn't an absolutely simple, fill out an extra line on your application or else everywhere would have already have implemented this. I stated this should be the responsibility of the school and their financial aid departments because they have the insight, information, experience, and knowledge to effectively develop potential ways to better assess students than people without this insight - like us - could do. I'm sure things like needaccess and extra information packets are attempts to help get a better picture than just the FASFA, and may even have had success at extending aid to some people who would have been passed over by just the FASFA, but methods can always be improved, and should be continuously reviewed and revised to better serve their students.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Having wealthy parents doesn't make one immune from bad things. Children of wealthy parents are emotionally, physically, and sexually abused. They suffer from debilitating medical conditions. They are susceptible to tragic accidents. They are bullied because they are fat, ugly, LGBQT, less rich than the other rich kids, have a different religion. They have unplanned pregnancies. They have family problems - death, divorce, infidelity, addiction, mental disease. Turn on a TV. What would it be like to be Chelsea Clinton as her father's affairs are publicly investigated? How about Charlie Sheen's children? North West? Her mother is most famous for a sex tape.

I'm not trying to rally sympathy for the wealthy, I'm just saying that this default position that anyone from money has a perfect life is often false.

Everything listed here, especially physical and mental abuse, being ostracized, severe medical conditions, neglect, susceptibility to trauma and accidents, broken homes, teen pregnancies, substance abuse and mental disease are significantly higher for children of low income families. So not sure this is the best argument.

Lol @ "less rich than other rich kids". I can just imagine the playground trash talk.. Psssh your daddy only drives a C-class! Hahaha


I'm very important. I have many leather bound books, and my apartment smells of rich mahogany...

 

[eliteeli]

Because all "need" isn't equal.

OP, let's say you absolutely had to raise $50,000 by next month, as in, your very life depended on you getting that money. Could you do it? Well, you don't have $50,000 sitting around in your bank account, but you don't want to die, right? So what do you do? First, you take the few thousand dollars you do have out of the bank. Then, you go to your parents, and they give you a few thousand dollars more. Maybe a few other relatives pitch in as well. So far, so good. Next, you call your credit card company and get a cash advancement for a few thousand dollars. Then, you start looking at other ways to raise money, such as by working extra hours for the next month to get more cash flow coming in. Maybe you also sell your car and some of your other possessions on Craig's List. Ultimately, by doing a combination of all these things, you raise your $50,000, and your life is saved. Hooray!

Now, let's say you were in a situation where you needed that $50,000, but you didn't have any resources to raise it. No parents or relatives to contribute a few thousand each, no car to sell, no bank that you can convince to give you a personal loan. Remember, you're going to die if you don't get this money. But you don't have any way to get it. These are the people who qualify for need-based aid.

I understand that many people's families do not help them pay for school. My family did not pay for my education either. But the point is, if you have a family, and they have an income or any assets, and your very life depended on it, you *do* theoretically have them as a fallback in terms of getting those life-saving resources. And if your family has the means but chooses to use it in other ways rather than invest in your medical education, you can still go to medical school. That is why we have a system of educational loans. But not contributing to your med school tuition is a choice that you and your family have made; their not contributing to your education is not your inherent life situation like it is for some people, where their family has no ability to choose whether or not to help them with their education. Does that make sense?

That doesn't mean they need to give out scholarships. How often does that kind of scenario happen exactly? SO firstly you could increase the amount of loans you borrow, seeing as the max is way higher than tuition+expenses. Also, they could have a reserve fund of the amount of 1 person's tuition that the school could then give out IF the need arises, as opposed to just assuming that all of the people who receive need based scholarships will have some sort of emergency.

 

[eliteeli]

Why are there merit scholarships? Merit scholarships are inherently unfair. They're usually awarded to amazing athletes, musicians, people with 45 MCAT scores etc. How can one who grew up in a poor family ever scrape together the resources to attain these achievements

Growing up I never played sports or an instrument. Why? You need parents to take you to ball practice. You need to pay for music lessons and team fees and equipment and instruments. How can we do these things if my parents were working all the time just to pay for food and rent?

My cousin's family is much better off than ours growing up. Right now she plays all types of sports and gymnastics. She takes violin lessons that cost $60 an hour. My mom doesn't even make $60 in a day.

I think the need based scholarships give it some balance at least

You did not mention how the money helps you get the 45 MCAT though... Obviously I didn't get a 45, but I did well enough to potentially earn a scholarship if theere were more available. I did not take an MCAT course and spent a grand total of 180$ on prep. On a side note: I also play 2 instruments and my parents never paid for lessons or the instruments!

 

[eliteeli]

It was started by a guy called "eliteeli" with the phrase, "so I have a bit of a gripe." Of course it was doomed... (full disclosure: I'm an Eagles fan).

Haha... can't wait till the season starts... Just wait for our comeback this year!

 

[eliteeli]

The need access takes student debts into account.

The ppl on the forum against need based aid are the ones whose parents are doctors, they take vacations abroad annually, and they backpack ppl

My parents are not doctors (Mom is a teacher dad runs a small business), never been on a vacation abroad in my life, and the only backpacking I did was up in New Hampshire... cost me under 1000$ for the trip. Please don't just stereotype. The system is skewed against the middle class. The rich come out fine, and the poor receive aid. We get neither.

 

[TomHanks]

I come from a low income family and I have my tuition waived because of it. The idea behind some need-based aid is that by helping these future physicians out, they will help those that are from lower income communities like they were. I think there is some truth to this. However, the average family income of medical students is rising, with most coming from families making more than 100k a year.

https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf

Also, here is an article from Quebec (if you read French or prefer to translate).

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/e...-4764245-elitistes-les-etudes-en-medecine.php

The article makes a point that trying to entice low income students into medical school is not working. Low income children need to be reached earlier if they are to be competitive and be admitted to medical school. Medical school students do not reflect the population. How to really address this though...

This year the AAMC took a step to gain more socioeconomic diversity in medical school by displaying the "SES" status on the AMCAS applications. It takes into account your parent's income and their education levels.

https://www.aamc.org/download/330166/data/seseffectivepractices.pdf

 

[chillaxbro]

You did not mention how the money helps you get the 45 MCAT though... Obviously I didn't get a 45, but I did well enough to potentially earn a scholarship if theere were more available. I did not take an MCAT course and spent a grand total of 180$ on prep. On a side note: I also play 2 instruments and my parents never paid for lessons or the instruments!

Try studying for the MCAT and doing all the other premed things while working full time

Not saying it's impossible to spend little money and do well but if you had more study resources and time, you're more likely to do better than those without

Also, they don't give you scholarships just because you learned to read guitar tabs and play basketball with your friends in your free time. You have to excel at these things and it almost always requires proper tutors and coaches working with you from a young age. The poor are not going to have these resources, let alone the opportunity to explore these things

Once again, I'm not saying it's impossible to be good at an instrument/sport when you're poor but it makes it more difficult

 

[BamaNicole]

wish I could afford an MCAT class when I was studying.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Why do med schools give need based scholarships?!? Except for maybe the VERY rich, nobody's parents are paying for their school anyway!

Something like 15-20% of medical students do not take loans. There's a substantial number of people whose parents foot the entire bill.

 

[Espadaleader]

No one gets need-based aid above 50% COA. A family making ~30k, single parent, no assets (no house, no car, no IRA, 401k, investments, no

 

[Espadaleader]

No one gets need-based aid above 50% COA. A family making ~30k, single parent, no assets (no house, no car, no IRA, 401k, investments, no savings balance). These students pay 150/200k total repayment. No one is getting full rides on need based aid. The poor are still repaying back 200k total.

 

[CherryRedDracul]

wish I could afford an MCAT class when I was studying.

Or alternatively, you could take all that money and burn it. Same outcome.

 

[DrowningInWork]

Merit based would be unfair since rich kids have the opportunity to spend more time accumulating merit. Right? I agree that the system is not perfect. It is probably hardest on the middle class.

Not necessarily. My dad makes 400k/year but I'm putting myself through college because he isn't helping me out with undergrad. So I got minimal fin aid and work 30 hours a week to pay for tuition and food and all that crap, meaning that I (on the surface) look like I have a lot of time to accumulate merit, but in reality, I barely have time to study for my classes.

 

[Person0715]

Not necessarily. My dad makes 400k/year but I'm putting myself through college because he isn't helping me out with undergrad. So I got minimal fin aid and work 30 hours a week to pay for tuition and food and all that crap, meaning that I (on the surface) look like I have a lot of time to accumulate merit, but in reality, I barely have time to study for my classes.

Its good of you to be working to put yourself through college, but n=1 doesn't mean you can generalize your experience to all rich kids' experiences.

 

[Greenberg702]

Not necessarily. My dad makes 400k/year but I'm putting myself through college because he isn't helping me out with undergrad. So I got minimal fin aid and work 30 hours a week to pay for tuition and food and all that crap, meaning that I (on the surface) look like I have a lot of time to accumulate merit, but in reality, I barely have time to study for my classes.

Hopefully you'll be able to demonstrate to adcoms that you're paying your way on the AMCAS since they make you list what percentage of COA comes from where. In all honesty I feel very, very sorry for people in your situation (even though I come from a really poor family) because with the way the system is set up, your dad threw you completely under the bus.

 

[ace12345]

Not necessarily. My dad makes 400k/year but I'm putting myself through college because he isn't helping me out with undergrad. So I got minimal fin aid and work 30 hours a week to pay for tuition and food and all that crap, meaning that I (on the surface) look like I have a lot of time to accumulate merit, but in reality, I barely have time to study for my classes.

This probably won't change anything. They will assume parental contribution. I apologize, that's just the way it works.

 

[DrowningInWork]

Its good of you to be working to put yourself through college, but n=1 doesn't mean you can generalize your experience to all rich kids' experiences.

Oh, I know. My point was just that the system screws over people like me. :/

 

[DrowningInWork]

Hopefully you'll be able to demonstrate to adcoms that you're paying your way on the AMCAS since they make you list what percentage of COA comes from where. In all honesty I feel very, very sorry for people in your situation (even though I come from a really poor family) because with the way the system is set up, your dad threw you completely under the bus.

Nah, I'm actually ok with my dad's decision. He grew up super duper poor (as in not enough food as a child) in a third world country and worked hard to make a good life for his family, so I get that he wants to teach us the values he learned doing that. I feel that I've learned the value of a dollar earlier + better than most of my peers, even though I had a lot growing up.

 

[Person0715]

Oh, I know. My point was just that the system screws over people like me. :/

The system screws everyone over, in one way or another. Guess they think that makes it fair...

 

[Greenberg702]

Nah, I'm actually ok with my dad's decision. He grew up super duper poor (as in not enough food as a child) in a third world country and worked hard to make a good life for his family, so I get that he wants to teach us the values he learned doing that. I feel that I've learned the value of a dollar earlier + better than most of my peers, even though I had a lot growing up.

Understandable. Personally, if I'm ever fortunate enough to be able to finance my child's education I would definitely do it. That way they would be able to completely devote their time to academics, ECs, and research and gain a huge advantage.

 

[DrowningInWork]

Understandable. Personally, if I'm ever fortunate enough to be able to finance my child's education I would definitely do it. That way they would be able to completely devote their time to academics, ECs, and research and gain a huge advantage.

Makes sense. I was actually really lucky to get a job in a lab, otherwise I'm not sure I'd even have a shot...

 

[waiting too long]

Its good of you to be working to put yourself through college, but n=1 doesn't mean you can generalize your experience to all rich kids' experiences.

I don't believe that this is a n=1 case. Maybe with 400K a year this dad should be helping with undergraduate, but not necessarily medical school. I know people with families with income in the 125K-150K range that help nothing with undergraduate. Whats "rich?" 150K? 250K? Also, I find it annoying that you label these people "rich kids". You know your own kids will be snotty rich kids then, so be careful how you label. I think Drowning in Work will end up with the same work ethic as his dad and I hope it works out for him.
In my experience, my dad paid for his own medical school and I would never expect him to pay for mine on top of that. He will be helping me, but just enough for cost of living. Tuition is the big killer. Why do people assume that doctors have to put their own kids through medical school? All med students will end up with the same ability to repay loans, but only those who are "poor" will get to graduate with less to pay back. So just remember, if you have to take loans out for medical school, you'll later be considered a "rich" doctor and have to turn around and pay for medical school again.