Why do other people discourage others from becoming a doctor?

[deleted1085158]

Do they do this because they magically know our fate or do they do it because they can't do it themselves?

People have been discouraging me for a while now, doctors included yet more and more people are becoming doctors so I'm confused as to why the naysayers say what they say.

I keep hearing, "It's not what it used to be" "Other careers pay just as well" "bureaucracy" "It's not worth it"

How do you deal with the negativity?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ymmvdo]

Go into something because YOU want to do it. Medicine is still a great career but it isn't as profitable as it used to be considering rising student debt, losing your 20s, stress, residency at minimum wage, midlevel encroachment, malpractice, etc. If you have a passion for it you'll be fine. A lot of people went into it for easy money in the past and realized it was harder than they thought/think they should be paid more. Tell that to the people working 80hr minimum wage jobs to feed their family. There are plenty of physicians who would do it all over again too.

As someone who knows a lot of people in computer science, which is widely regarded as the most lucrative field right now (125k base + 30k signing + stock options fresh out of 4yr college at any decent tech company), there's a ton of bs in other fields too. Turnover rate, office politics, job security, etc. Grass is always greener on the other side. People will complain about anything.

 

[deleted1082375]

every mentor I've talked to about this, whatever the degree, has told me it's not worth it..... but then there they are. PharmD, DO, MD, PhD, whatever the hell dentists are, and JD... doesn't matter. they all say don't be stupid and do it.

It's just a crap ton of work and stress and I don't wish that on anyone. I love it but the stress is downright miserable at times. I think that's why they say it. there's easier ways to a comfortable and productive life. med school is much much much much crazier than you could ever imagine it would ever be. for example: 35 lectures in two weeks with an exam the following monday... and that's just one class. buckle up, buckaroo.

follow your passion kid.

 

[deleted1085158]

Go into something because YOU want to do it. Medicine is still a great career but it isn't as profitable as it used to be considering rising student debt, losing your 20s, stress, residency at minimum wage, midlevel encroachment, malpractice, etc. If you have a passion for it you'll be fine. A lot of people went into it for easy money in the past and realized it was harder than they thought/think they should be paid more. Tell that to the people working 80hr minimum wage jobs to feed their family. There are plenty of physicians who would do it all over again too.

As someone who knows a lot of people in computer science, which is widely regarded as the most lucrative field right now (125k base + 30k signing + stock options fresh out of 4yr college at any decent tech company), there's a ton of bs in other fields too. Turnover rate, office politics, job security, etc. Grass is always greener on the other side. People will complain about anything.

I got the feeling that a lot of people pursued it for the money and when things got tough, they started to whine about it.

I am passionate about this decision, the only thing I am concerned about is the debt but another doctor told me "sometimes in life you have to spend money to make money."

 

[deleted1082375]

I got the feeling that a lot of people pursued it for the money and when things got tough, they started to whine about it.

I am passionate about this decision, the only thing I am concerned about is the debt but another doctor told me "sometimes in life you have to spend money to make money."

they don't let you take hundreds of thousands in debt if they don't expect you to pay it back.

you will not be rich as a doctor unless you do something super specialized

you will be comfortable in all probability. not a bad way to live life. I don't want to be rich, myself.

 

[Crayola227]

I got the feeling that a lot of people pursued it for the money and when things got tough, they started to whine about it.

I am passionate about this decision, the only thing I am concerned about is the debt but another doctor told me "sometimes in life you have to spend money to make money."

The people who went into it for idealism are equally disillusioned.

It's way worse if you have a conscience and truly care for your patients, you will see how much the system harms them and you are essentially forced to be complicit in it at many stages.

The docs who say that isn't the case frequently either don't care or they're in denial or rationalize it.

 

[Crayola227]

I thought my passion for helping others and lack of caring a lot about money would insulate me from a lot of the negatives. It did not.

 

[awhelkschance]

Chiming in with the perspective of someone who has another career in tech but is making the switch to medicine: it is true that the grass is always greener on the other side. Ultimately it comes down to what is most important to you. Money? Definitely don’t do medicine, do tech or finance or something, but accept that your career may well be unstable and unless you make it into the upper levels of management, you’ll be irrelevant in your fifties and struggling to get employed, so make sure you’ve made all your money by then. Actually helping people and having some fulfilment? Medicine does allow for that, but also accept the bureaucracy, and everything else you’re hearing about. But you can, if you want, work for a long time and you will be financially comfortable.

Also, and I can’t stress this enough — whatever you do, if you want to do it well and be successful, it will be stressful and involve long hours and dealing with lots of BS. That’s life. I’ve never worked *just* my contracted hours, always far more, because that’s the expectation everywhere I’ve worked. The only thing to ask is what forms of struggle are you willing to go through and why? It is an extremely personal question, and therefore in many ways one which no one else can answer for you. They may regret their choice because they didn’t understand themselves when they made it, and now realise they can’t do medical struggling. Or they may just think that everyone else has it easy because they’ve never worked another job. In the end, it’s up to you.

 

[deleted1085158]

I thought my passion for helping others and lack of caring a lot about money would insulate me from a lot of the negatives. It did not.

This is the part that scares me because I can't see what you see through shadowing or even having friends who are doctors.

For example, years ago my cousin left his surgical residency program because he kept saying something about "it's all about quotas." Apparently, doctors have to meet quotas with procedures and he said he wasn't for it. I just have no idea what that looks like because I'm not a doctor.

Can you give some basic example of the bureaucracy in medicine?

 

[Crayola227]

This is the part that scares me because I can't see what you see through shadowing or even having friends who are doctors.

For example, years ago my cousin left his surgical residency program because he kept saying something about "it's all about quotas." Apparently, doctors have to meet quotas with procedures and he said he wasn't for it. I just have no idea what that looks like because I'm not a doctor.

Can you give some basic example of the bureaucracy in medicine?

One example is never having enough time with any individual patient. It's heartbreaking the amount of problems you will have that you will feel could be addressed with just a little bit more of your time - vaccine hesitancy, for example.

People turning down life saving procedures or medications out of ignorance, and if only there was more time to spend talking to the patient. Frequently as a med student you can find this time, at least on inpatient wards.

All of the lives I personally saved as a student was related to this. And I feel like people died or almost died because of lack of time after I graduated.

It's sickening the grind of medicine and the lack of time. It's factory medicine.

 

[jhmmd]

One example is never having enough time with any individual patient. It's heartbreaking the amount of problems you will have that you will feel could be addressed with just a little bit more of your time - vaccine hesitancy, for example.

People turning down life saving procedures or medications out of ignorance, and if only there was more time to spend talking to the patient. Frequently as a med student you can find this time, at least on inpatient wards.

All of the lives I personally saved as a student was related to this. And I feel like people died or almost died because of lack of time after I graduated.

It's sickening the grind of medicine and the lack of time. It's factory medicine.

And part of the reason for this is bureaucracy in medicine--CEOs instead of doctors managing hospitals, for example. People who rely upon surveys and pt-generated metrics to see if a hospital/practice is doing well vs. pt volume and referrals. I feel like # of pts / # of new pts speaks for itself, but that's just my opinion.

And you shouldn't have people unfamiliar with medicine managing the day-to-day stuff in a hospital. It's just a bad idea all around.

 

[DocJanItor]

And part of the reason for this is bureaucracy in medicine--CEOs instead of doctors managing hospitals, for example. People who rely upon surveys and pt-generated metrics to see if a hospital/practice is doing well vs. pt volume and referrals. I feel like # of pts / # of new pts speaks for itself, but that's just my opinion.

And you shouldn't have people unfamiliar with medicine managing the day-to-day stuff in a hospital. It's just a bad idea all around.

What we need are more physicians who understand finance, economics, and accounting. Far too many graduate having gone through 8 years of post-secondary education and residency without ever having learned basic business principles. While MD/MBAs help alleviate this, most of those aren't private practice/family practice docs.

 

[DNAJB6]

1. They are jaded and probably work in a hospital or large academic medical center where people with MBAs from online “universities” with no clinical acumen become administrators and set policy for others.

2. Declining insurance reimbursement.

3. Paper work, charting, regulatory hurdles, arguing with insurance companies over preauthorizations, etc.

 

[Goro]

Do they do this because they magically know our fate or do they do it because they can't do it themselves?

People have been discouraging me for a while now, doctors included yet more and more people are becoming doctors so I'm confused as to why the naysayers say what they say.

I keep hearing, "It's not what it used to be" "Other careers pay just as well" "bureaucracy" "It's not worth it"

How do you deal with the negativity?

Based upon the reports of SDNers, if they're not experienced in this process, the naysayers are doing so out of jealous, or just have toxic personalities to begin with. You'd be surprised at how many of such people are relatives of the people considering Medicine!

It's not what it used to be" "bureaucracy" "It's not worth it"

These thoughts can be due to burnout by clinicians and/or the change in the medical environment over the past 20+ years.

 

[Crayola227]

It doesn't change things to have MDs in charge. Because better care and more time with patients will just cost more. It's not about outcomes but the bottom line. If that's what you're trying to maximise education is moot.

 

[deleted1085158]

It doesn't change things to have MDs in charge. Because better care and more time with patients will just cost more. It's not about outcomes but the bottom line. If that's what you're trying to maximise education is moot.

So you're saying medicine at the end of the day is just a business and we should all try not to get sick?

 

[Vivid_Quail]

Medicine is still a great career but it isn't as profitable as it used to be considering rising student debt, losing your 20s, stress, residency at minimum wage, midlevel encroachment, malpractice, etc.

None of those reasons are really why medicine is not as profitable. Part of the problem with your argument is that medicine is more or less as profitable in 2020 as it was in 1970. The bolded reasons have existed in medicine long before even the "good 'ol days", so we can throw them out up front.

Student debt has gone up a lot but the amount of debt is still a negligible amount compared to a physician's career earnings. Don't get me wrong, medical student debt has skyrocketed, but it is still manageable and you can retire with basically the same net worth as someone who went to med school when it cost $800/yr.

Midlevel encroachment is a huge problem but midlevels have allowed one doctor to bill more than the doctor would be able to by themselves. That is why medical students and residents are 1000% anti-midlevel during training and then when they become attendings, everyone has a PA or NP working for them. Money talks.

A lot of people went into it for easy money in the past and realized it was harder than they thought/think they should be paid more.

Medical residency was much harder 20+ years ago and becoming a physician has not been considered "easy money"...ever?

The real reason people feel like medicine is not nearly as profitable is that more and more physicians are employed and don't own their own practices anymore. That lack of control sucks and I wish it was not the case. However, physician income is about the same as it was 50 years ago. I just hope it stays high for the next 20-30 before I can retire.

Source: Is It Better to Be a Doctor Now Than It Was 50 Years Ago? | Physician Sense

 

[deleted1085158]

None of those reasons are really why medicine is not as profitable. Part of the problem with your argument is that medicine is more or less as profitable in 2020 as it was in 1970. The bolded reasons have existed in medicine long before even the "good 'ol days", so we can throw them out up front.

Student debt has gone up a lot but the amount of debt is still a negligible amount compared to a physician's career earnings. Don't get me wrong, medical student debt has skyrocketed, but it is still manageable and you can retire with basically the same net worth as someone who went to med school when it cost $800/yr.

Midlevel encroachment is a huge problem but midlevels have allowed one doctor to bill more than the doctor would be able to by themselves. That is why medical students and residents are 1000% anti-midlevel during training and then when they become attendings, everyone has a PA or NP working for them. Money talks.

Medical residency was much harder 20+ years ago and becoming a physician has not been considered "easy money"...ever?

The real reason people feel like medicine is not nearly as profitable is that more and more physicians are employed and don't own their own practices anymore. That lack of control sucks and I wish it was not the case. However, physician income is about the same as it was 50 years ago. I just hope it stays high for the next 20-30 before I can retire.

Source: Is It Better to Be a Doctor Now Than It Was 50 Years Ago? | Physician Sense

Is it really that hard to keep your own practice open these days? I have also noticed that independent practices are closing and those physicians are joining these mega practices with 100+ physicians.

 

[Vivid_Quail]

Is it really that hard to keep your own practice open these days?

Yes. Just Google "percent of practices owned by physicians" and try to find a chart of percent vs year.

 

[Crayola227]

So you're saying medicine at the end of the day is just a business and we should all try not to get sick?

I'm saying the way medicine is done in this country puts physicians and patients at the mercy of greedy capitalist forces. I don't think medicine should be practiced as a business at the end of the the day, but that's the way it actually operates. And yeah, best thing you can do is not get sick and get put through the grinder.

I feel so awful for the meat grinder.

 

[DocJanItor]

It doesn't change things to have MDs in charge. Because better care and more time with patients will just cost more. It's not about outcomes but the bottom line. If that's what you're trying to maximise education is moot.

But you need people who understand both simultaneously. Business people don't understand why a more expensive procedure might lead to reduced costs down the line. Doctors don't understand efficacy vs value and that, at s certain point, throwing more money at the problem is a net negative for the system.

 

[deleted1065262]

Go into something because YOU want to do it. Medicine is still a great career but it isn't as profitable as it used to be considering rising student debt, losing your 20s, stress, residency at minimum wage, midlevel encroachment, malpractice, etc. If you have a passion for it you'll be fine. A lot of people went into it for easy money in the past and realized it was harder than they thought/think they should be paid more. Tell that to the people working 80hr minimum wage jobs to feed their family. There are plenty of physicians who would do it all over again too.

As someone who knows a lot of people in computer science, which is widely regarded as the most lucrative field right now (125k base + 30k signing + stock options fresh out of 4yr college at any decent tech company), there's a ton of bs in other fields too. Turnover rate, office politics, job security, etc. Grass is always greener on the other side. People will complain about anything.

This is my opinion as well.

If you want to go into a field like Medicine right now, do it because it is what you truly want to do.

 

[hmockingbird]

I almost feel like some people do this to prove a point/make you think. At least that’s the feeling I got when I heard this back in the day. Kind of like one more challenge to push past. The truth is medical school is hard and residency is harder. The grass isn’t greener and sometimes the naïveté pre-meds have about how wonderful the ~journey~ will be or how a medical career will magically make them feel fulfilled can be a bit much. But if you still want it knowing all the potential pitfalls (as much as you can as a premed), then do it. It’s still a very rewarding and stable career at the end of the day.

 

[deleted1085158]

I almost feel like some people do this to prove a point/make you think. At least that’s the feeling I got when I heard this back in the day. Kind of like one more challenge to push past. The truth is medical school is hard and residency is harder. The grass isn’t greener and sometimes the naïveté pre-meds have about how wonderful the ~journey~ will be or how a medical career will magically make them feel fulfilled can be a bit much. But if you still want it knowing all the potential pitfalls (as much as you can as a premed), then do it. It’s still a very rewarding and stable career at the end of the day.

Would you agree that most admissions committees know exactly what you are thinking yet still accept students who might have the credentials but clearly have no idea what they are signing up for?

I'm sorry but 20-22 year olds can't process this even if they have parents that are doctors. I'm a non-trad and I picked this up after YEARS of shadowing and making friends.

 

[hmockingbird]

Would you agree that most admissions committees know exactly what you are thinking yet still accept students who might have the credentials but clearly have no idea what they are signing up for?

I'm sorry but 20-22 year olds can't process this even if they have parents that are doctors. I'm a non-trad and I picked this up after YEARS of shadowing and making friends.

Not sure where the hostility is coming from. My impression is that all the shadowing and clinical experience is a requirement to show that you have some idea of what you’re getting into. So yes I think knowing what you’re getting into (to the extent you can without actually being in the career as I said) is what adcoms are looking for!

 

[deleted1085158]

Not sure where the hostility is coming from. My impression is that all the shadowing and clinical experience is a requirement to show that you have some idea of what you’re getting into. So yes I think knowing what you’re getting into (to the extent you can without actually being in the career as I said) is what adcoms are looking for!

There is no hostility. Where did you see hostility in my response I'm curious?