Why do people go to the carribean when they can do D.O?

[Lisa D]

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As I said in my earlier post, Caribbean MD programs actually have lower requirements than DO. Most students would go the DO route if they were to be accepted. Many students have actually applied, were rejected, waited a year, and eventually applied off-shore.

Statistically speaking, many off-shore students will never make it. You could make the argument that many of them should never have been in medical school in the first place because GPA and MCAT requirements exist for a reason. On the other hand, many off-shore students do make it. You could make the argument that many of them will become excellent physicians, despite prior academic problems.

I'm not assuming this. I've worked with dozens of doctors, one of them in particular that was a Ross graduate. And he was one of the best doctors I've ever met. You could say that he's the exception to the rule. I'd add on to that and say, he among others are the exception to the rule. As for the other Caribbean students who never graduate, they aren't part of that exception and they failed out for a reason. But without the opportunity, these exceptions would never have had the chance.


(I'm not blowing off OMM. I've never mentioned it in any of my posts here.)

And it's not about choosing Caribbean MD over DO. If I had the choice, I'd definitely take DO over Caribbean MD. But sometimes you don't have a choice.

What about the fact that SABA medical university (one of the "big 4" in fact) does not require a bachelors degree for admissions? Many of the people I know going to Carribean Medical Schools chose this route because of all the time they will be saving by doing the pre reqs and then going straight into medical school over seas. The actual med school is also briefer than those in the US as well. Though their requirements for admissions are fewer, the program itself is condensed (lending a hand to the lower passing rates). Cheaper too! So many reasons to choose the Carribean if you are confident enough in your ability to do well.

 

[Lisa D]

hahaha. That's a good one. Why don't you do some reading here (and elsewhere) and learn a little about the odds of success coming from carib vs. US medical schools and correct your own ignorance.

You're right: most people go to school in the Caribbean because they can't get into U.S. schools. There are a few people like you, though, who are stupid enough to go there without that justification.

I am currently in the midsts of determining the best route for me, so take your anger out in some other thread. I AM here to read and learn so if you have something constructive to say, then do it, but take your lack of understanding others' situations and reasons somewhere else. So far, all I've learned is that no one on this site can learn anything because once medical students are stuck on their "perfect" path they cannot keep an open mind to anyone else's point of view and seem to take questions as insults.

With that said, statistics or not, with my reasons for considering the Carribean so strongly having nothing to do with an inability to get into a US med school I know my "odds" of success and I am confident.

Also, what I said was that it is IGNORANT to think people always go to the Carribean because they cannot get in anywhere else. If you are going quote me, make sure you get it right.

 

[Lisa D]

i think people choose caribbean over DO because they are not well-informed. DO is clearly better than caribbean

i personally would choose a school in australia instead because DO and caribbean have reputations of being back up schools for people who can't get into US allopathic.

Please explain in number form why you believe DO is better than Caribbean.

 

[Siggy]

What about the fact that SABA medical university (one of the "big 4" in fact) does not require a bachelors degree for admissions?

Err... the majority of US medical schools only "require" 90 semester units of college. I wouldn't advise anyone to apply with the intent to not complete an undergrad degree as it represents a de facto requirement, but completing an undergrad degree is not a hard and fast requirement.

 

[Caesar]

Please explain in number form why you believe DO is better than Caribbean.

Tuition. Residency.

 

[Siggy]

Please explain in number form why you believe DO is better than Caribbean.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf

Table 2
PDF page 16 (put 16 into the box on top)

Compare percent of US DO grads that matched (around 68%) in ACGME (MD) residencies to foreign grads (about 42%) and then consider that DOs still have the option (well, technically ACGME is an option for those that don't match or don't attempt the DO match) to match into DO residencies which IMG don't have.

 

[ChimpanzeeMinky]

I am currently in the midsts of determining the best route for me, so take your anger out in some other thread. I AM here to read and learn so if you have something constructive to say, then do it, but take your lack of understanding others' situations and reasons somewhere else. So far, all I've learned is that no one on this site can learn anything because once medical students are stuck on their "perfect" path they cannot keep an open mind to anyone else's point of view and seem to take questions as insults.

With that said, statistics or not, with my reasons for considering the Carribean so strongly having nothing to do with an inability to get into a US med school I know my "odds" of success and I am confident.

Also, what I said was that it is IGNORANT to think people always go to the Carribean because they cannot get in anywhere else. If you are going quote me, make sure you get it right.

It is not about point of view. It is about the undeniable fact that gaining access to residency is substantially more difficult coming into the match as an IMG than as a U.S. grad.

So, what you're saying is that statistics or not, you're going to ignore the statistics and give yourself a much harder path to getting into a residency in the states.

Forgive me for being harsh, but that sounds like the thought process of a stupid person.

 

[Lisa D]

Tuition. Residency.

I'm new to the idea of attending a university in the Caribbean but from my research and friends that attend I've learned the tuition costs less.
What about residency?

 

[mspeedwagon]

For ALL those considering DO vs Caribbean, DO is a far superior option for so many reasons I cannot even begin to list them all here. However, I'm going to stress that two that matter most. First, USMLE pass rates. There was a study done that listed the USMLE pass rates for each Caribbean island and they were abysmal (yes, even for SGU, which makes a claim that is surpasses that US average when it comes to pass rates). With a few google searches you can likely find this study (I"m too lazy right now). Second, as mentioned before, residency match. If you consider both the allo and osteo matches, virtually all DOs match into residency. Less than 50% of IMGs match into US residency. There is virtually no question to be asked here. If you want to practice in the US, DO is far superior to being an IMG.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Tuition is NOT less for three of the big four. The only exception is SABA. But, SABA is the least well regarding of the Big Four (being relatively newer). At any top tier hospital in the country you will find a ton of MDs, a few DOs and absolutely no Caribbean graduates. That's not to say you will not be able to practice in the US, but it's a last resort path. If you don't believe me, post in Caribbean forum saying you have the option to go US DO or head to Caribbean and ask for advice from those in the Caribbean. Every person I have ever known that went to the Caribbean wishes they had spent a few years making themselves better applicants for US MD and DO schools and I know dozens. They basically had to take whatever residency they could get (often after applying multiple times). And, then their job prospects were not all that great after residency.

I'm new to the idea of attending a university in the Caribbean but from my research and friends that attend I've learned the tuition costs less.
What about residency?

 

[ahowardmd]

I've done tons of research on Carribean Medical Schools recently. The one I'm looking into is SABA. It is actually cheaper than US medical schools (one of the BIG reasons I am looking into the Carribean). The program is rather exotic as well: 20 months on the Island then another 18 month clinical rotation at one of the affiliated hospitals in the US... ANOTHER reason I am looking into the Carribean.

To say that the only reason people attend med school in the Carribean is because they cannot get in anywhere in the US is ignorant. That person needs to get THEIR facts straight...

Tuition may be cheaper, but I'm sure airplane flights to the Carribean (if only once or twice a year) will add up, plus the stress of being separated from family and friends, and other variables will even things up. Add in the statistical fact that you may have trouble matching into a residency, and now you're not looking so good.

I also looked into the Carribean (SGU) only because of the study-abroad opportunities (study for a year in england, study for a year in grenada, then back to the US). But it would be a nightmare to fly back and forth, and be so far away from American security. Do you remember when the US invaded Grenada? It was to rescue the Americans living in Grenada from their crazy government. Also, factor in the stigma of being a carribean grad with difficulty in getting residency, and it's easy to see why you should do you best to get into any American school, MD or DO.

 

[Lisa D]

It is not about point of view. It is about the undeniable fact that gaining access to residency is substantially more difficult coming into the match as an IMG than as a U.S. grad.

So, what you're saying is that statistics or not, you're going to ignore the statistics and give yourself a much harder path to getting into a residency in the states.

Forgive me for being harsh, but that sounds like the thought process of a stupid person.

Here's where I'm coming from. Idealy: Pre-med to MD, residency and eventually to my own practice. I have any option open to me at this point, working on my pre reqs and bachelors deg. I've always faught with the idea of having a family and enjoying that aspect of my life in my mid to late 30's (after following through with my goals ^^).
I am going through with medical school no matter what but with friends telling me about their experiences in the Caribbean (they attend SABA med univ) - lower tuition, no bach. required, shorter (more condensed) program - all I can think about is the time I'll save and be comfortable in my career sooner. I am not looking to avoid school or take shortcuts by any means and I am driven enough and intelligent enough to succeed.
I am still young, still undergrad, still have any option open to me. This one is just the most recent I have been considering.

 

[da8s0859q]

I am not looking to avoid school or take shortcuts by any means and I am driven enough and intelligent enough to succeed.

But you keep mentioning "condensed program" as a perk.

No matter how you slice it, Caribbean students do have it significantly harder than their US counterparts for reasons already mentioned. And while I'm sure there are some who went Caribbean because, well, they wanted to go Caribbean, doing so by choice is essentially giving yourself an uphill battle when it comes time to get into residency, etc.

 

[Lisa D]

But you keep mentioning "condensed program" as a perk.

No matter how you slice it, Caribbean students do have it significantly harder than their US counterparts for reasons already mentioned. And while I'm sure there are some who went Caribbean because, well, they wanted to go Caribbean, doing so by choice is essentially giving yourself an uphill battle when it comes time to get into residency, etc.

I do not have a huge trust fund; I want to take advantage of the lower tuition as well. I guess I'll have to decide what the debt is worth.

 

[mspeedwagon]

What you need to consider is how you are going to pay back loans. 50% of IMG will NEVER be able to practice medicine in US. 50%! Virtually all DOs will be able to practice medicine in the US. This means that as a DO you are very likely to pay off your loans whereas coming out of a Caribbean school there is a 50% chance you won't make enough money as a physician to ever pay them off.

I do not have a huge trust fund; I want to take advantage of the lower tuition as well. I guess I'll have to decide what the debt is worth.

 

[Lisa D]

What you need to consider is how you are going to pay back loans. 50% of IMG will NEVER be able to practice medicine in US. 50%! Virtually all DOs will be able to practice medicine in the US. This means that as a DO you are very likely to pay off your loans whereas coming out of a Caribbean school there is a 50% chance you won't make enough money as a physician to ever pay them off.

It's all so disapointing, to be so confident that my drive and abilities will pull me through but to be so unsure of the odds. This was the first path I found that would give me all I really hope to acheive... If I succeed.

 

[mspeedwagon]

It's a fine path to take as an absolute last resort if you can not get into any form of medical school in the US.

The thread was DO vs Caribbean MD. DO is far superior from BIGGEST point that matters... becoming a practicing physician in the US.

That said, if you have no hope at a US MD or DO program then the Caribbean is fine. But realize this it is designed to be a last resort of option. Attrition is high, many don't pass the USMLE and you face the prospect of severe debt only to never be able to pay it back. I know someone that sold his house to attend one of the Caribbean Big 4 schools, passed the USMLE came back to the US and has not been able to match into a residency for 3 cycles now. He is working a menial job trying to pay back his debt. It was the biggest mistake of his life. He wishes he spent the time to make himself a better applicant for DO (he went to Caribbean because he didn't want to waste any more time in the US making himself a better candidate).

Realize now that it's a path of last resort.

It's all so disapointing, to be so confident that my drive and abilities will pull me through but to be so unsure of the odds. This was the first path I found that would give me all I really hope to acheive... If I succeed.

 

[Lisa D]

It's a fine path to take as an absolute last resort if you can not get into any form of medical school in the US.

The thread was DO vs Caribbean MD. DO is far superior from BIGGEST point that matters... becoming a practicing physician in the US.

That said, if you have no hope at a US MD or DO program then the Caribbean is fine. But realize this it is designed to be a last resort of option. Attrition is high, many don't pass the USMLE and you face the prospect of severe debt only to never be able to pay it back. I know someone that sold his house to attend one of the Caribbean Big 4 schools, passed the USMLE came back to the US and has not been able to match into a residency for 3 cycles now. He is working a menial job trying to pay back his debt. It was the biggest mistake of his life. He wishes he spent the time to make himself a better applicant for DO (he went to Caribbean because he didn't want to waste any more time in the US making himself a better candidate).

Realize now that it's a path of last resort.

Thanks everyone for your input. This has been really helpful, wish me luck!!!

 

[JonathanMD]

What about the fact that SABA medical university (one of the "big 4" in fact) does not require a bachelors degree for admissions? Many of the people I know going to Carribean Medical Schools chose this route because of all the time they will be saving by doing the pre reqs and then going straight into medical school over seas. The actual med school is also briefer than those in the US as well. Though their requirements for admissions are fewer, the program itself is condensed (lending a hand to the lower passing rates). Cheaper too! So many reasons to choose the Carribean if you are confident enough in your ability to do well.

"So many reasons to choose the Carribean if you are confident enough in your ability to do well." -Famous Last Words

I'm kidding, but I'm not.

Confidence is good, but it can only get you so far and it's ability to help you is limited. At some point you are at the mercy of the system in which you are studying and all of confidence in the world won't be able to save you.

Specifically, I cringe whenever I hear anyone cite that, "you get to graduate sooner" as a positive. This is (literally) just the spin they tell pre-meds during their lecture tours to trick them into thinking that a trimester system is a good thing.

Medical school at any school is hard. Normally people have 17-ish weeks of lecture to learn and master all of the first semester material. Now think of condensing that material into 13 weeks. It has nothing to do with being confidence. It's about looking at the numbers objectively.

The ultimate goal is to graduate and to be able to practice medicine. It's well documented that students from Caribbean schools have a much lower chance of success than their US counterparts. This single negative trumps any other of the many positives you can list.

Some people just don't have the numbers to compete for a US DO spot. And yes, you're an individual and I'm talking about statistics, but it's an unnecessary gamble. But for the people who are competitive and choose to go to the Caribbean anyway, I think they aren't taking their situation seriously.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

Do what ever the **** you want. Why would I give a ****, and why should anyone else? I live my own life. 😎

 

[JonathanMD]

do what ever the **** you want. Why would i give a ****, and why should anyone else? I live my own life. 😎

****!

🙁

 

[mspeedwagon]

And this is the viewpoint of someone studying in the Caribbean. Need I say more?

Btw, JonathanMD, I love your blog.

"So many reasons to choose the Carribean if you are confident enough in your ability to do well." -Famous Last Words

I'm kidding, but I'm not.

Confidence is good, but it can only get you so far and it's ability to help you is limited. At some point you are at the mercy of the system in which you are studying and all of confidence in the world won't be able to save you.

Specifically, I cringe whenever I hear anyone cite that, "you get to graduate sooner" as a positive. This is (literally) just the spin they tell pre-meds during their lecture tours to trick them into thinking that a trimester system is a good thing.

Medical school at any school is hard. Normally people have 17-ish weeks of lecture to learn and master all of the first semester material. Now think of condensing that material into 13 weeks. It has nothing to do with being confidence. It's about looking at the numbers objectively.

The ultimate goal is to graduate and to be able to practice medicine. It's well documented that students from Caribbean schools have a much lower chance of success than their US counterparts. This single negative trumps any other of the many positives you can list.

Some people just don't have the numbers to compete for a US DO spot. And yes, you're an individual and I'm talking about statistics, but it's an unnecessary gamble. But for the people who are competitive and choose to go to the Caribbean anyway, I think they aren't taking their situation seriously.

 

[Pisiform]

Hey guys, go get a Life.!!!

Aren't you tired of this mundane conversation, over and over again.

Bottom line is, DO > Carib MD
(and I don't care to explain why, because I know its true)