Why do Premeds go to top schools if they know they want to go into medicine?

[HughMyron]

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It's an honest question. I mean, med school is really expensive as it is without 200K+ in undergrad tuition being added on to it. Given that the advantage of a top school in medschool admissions is fairly marginal (compared to Business/Law/Grad), I don't see why a rational actor would make such a choice. Also, it would probably be harder to score solid grades against a crowd of super-competitive, driven, individuals.

Are these people who make such choices so rich and privileged that money ain't a thang to them?

 

[MeGoodManIThink]

Well at the time I thought it would make or break me and now realize that I could have gone to a less competitive school (went to a top 20). BUT at the same time, I was challenged in every facet of my education, and probably will have an easier time adjusting to medical school than a person who did not go to a thought provoking, and challenging undergraduate institution.

Yes, you can make life easier for you, but embarking on a career of medicine, we seek challenges to stimulate us intellectually and test our boundaries. I think it was worth it, maybe not the tuition but what I learned about myself and the pride that comes along with it was well worth it.

EDIT: I come from a very humble background (was not rich or privileged, in fact parents were farmers before coming to the US)

Also, I loved all the science research opportunities that my undergraduate provided me.

 

[sinombre]

It's an honest question. I mean, med school is really expensive as it is without 200K+ in undergrad tuition being added on to it. Given that the advantage of a top school in medschool admissions is fairly marginal (compared to Business/Law/Grad), I don't see why a rational actor would make such a choice. Also, it would probably be harder to score solid grades against a crowd of super-competitive, driven, individuals.

Are these people who make such choices so rich and privileged that money ain't a thang to them?

This is definitely the case for the small group of people I know who went to ivies for undergrad. They're also getting medical school (and veterinary school) completely paid for by their parents. I'm on the opposite end of this spectrum.

 

[HughMyron]

Well at the time I thought it would make or break me and now realize that I could have gone to a less competitive school (went to a top 20). BUT at the same time, I was challenged in every facet of my education, and probably will have an easier time adjusting to medical school than a person who did not go to a thought provoking, and challenging undergraduate institution.

Yes, you can make life easier for you, but embarking on a career of medicine, we seek challenges to stimulate us intellectually and test our boundaries. I think it was worth it, maybe not the tuition but what I learned about myself and the pride that comes along with it was well worth it.

EDIT: I come from a very humble background (was not rich or privileged, in fact parents were farmers before coming to the US)

Also, I loved all the science research opportunities that my undergraduate provided me.

You'll be challenged on the MCAT anyways...besides, Physics/Organic Chem/Biochem are not cakewalks at any school.

If you go to an easy school and try to shortcut your way through college, your MCAT will weed you out.

 

[MeGoodManIThink]

You'll be challenged on the MCAT anyways...besides, Physics/Organic Chem/Biochem are not cakewalks at any school.

If you go to an easy school and try to shortcut your way through college, your MCAT will weed you out.

Physics and O Chem can be very different at different schools. My friends who are pre-meds at less competitive schools took non-calculus based physics, which is basically plug and chug.

I agree with you, MCAT is the equalizer, I'm just speaking from my experience.

 

[JFK90787]

I would venture to say a good chunk of people who go to 'top' schools for undergrad and med school get scholarships. And anyway I don't blame people taking on a little extra debt to go to a reputable undergrad... in hindsight, I wish I did.

 

[touchpause13]

 

[darkjedi]

 

[Ismet]

+1

 

[Plue00]

It's an honest question. I mean, med school is really expensive as it is without 200K+ in undergrad tuition being added on to it. Given that the advantage of a top school in medschool admissions is fairly marginal (compared to Business/Law/Grad), I don't see why a rational actor would make such a choice. Also, it would probably be harder to score solid grades against a crowd of super-competitive, driven, individuals.

Are these people who make such choices so rich and privileged that money ain't a thang to them?

Cause everyone at top schools pay the full price tag 🙄

I think I read that over 50% of the students at Ivies/top schools get some sort of aid.

 

[SOMBound13]

It's an honest question. I mean, med school is really expensive as it is without 200K+ in undergrad tuition being added on to it. Given that the advantage of a top school in medschool admissions is fairly marginal (compared to Business/Law/Grad), I don't see why a rational actor would make such a choice. Also, it would probably be harder to score solid grades against a crowd of super-competitive, driven, individuals.

Are these people who make such choices so rich and privileged that money ain't a thang to them?

In a few cases, yes, these are students whose parents are wealthy and will pay for pricey undergrads and pricey med schools. However, this isn't the norm, and most people don't have parents who have the spending power to pay $500k for undergrad and med school for ONE child. Those parents are likely in the 7 figure income or the very high 6 figure income, or they only have one child.

I have a cousin who is attending a top private undergrad. His parents are paying all costs. If he goes to med school, they will pay all of his costs. His parents have a net worth of a few million and their income is about $500k. They are not the norm, not even close.


As for the others who choose pricey schools for undergrad: There still is this myth out there that they will get better schooled for the MCAT and lots more help getting "placed" into med school (their words). They also think that SOMs will give them a pass for a lesser GPA because they went to "a better school."

They look at the middle quartiles of their big state school and wrongly think, "those dumb kids will be in my premed classes, therefore the classes won't be very good."

I wonder how many of them get into med school, (after draining parents' money or taking out loans for undergrad), take out big loans for med school, eventually begin their practices and realize that some of their peers don't have that size of debt because they went to a cheaper undergrad, and saved their college accts or borrowing power for med school only. That must be a bite in the butt to think you racked up $500k in debt unnecessarily while your colleague has half the debt because he made more economical choices - and is earning the same amount as you are.

On the other hand, at most of the top schools, if you qualified for lots of aid, then it may have been a cheaper choice than a lower ranking school.

 

[NickNaylor]

Well at the time I thought it would make or break me and now realize that I could have gone to a less competitive school (went to a top 20). BUT at the same time, I was challenged in every facet of my education, and probably will have an easier time adjusting to medical school than a person who did not go to a thought provoking, and challenging undergraduate institution.

Yes, you can make life easier for you, but embarking on a career of medicine, we seek challenges to stimulate us intellectually and test our boundaries. I think it was worth it, maybe not the tuition but what I learned about myself and the pride that comes along with it was well worth it.

EDIT: I come from a very humble background (was not rich or privileged, in fact parents were farmers before coming to the US)

Also, I loved all the science research opportunities that my undergraduate provided me.

Medical school is thought provoking? Where have I been?!

(sent from my phone)

 

[Plue00]

Physics and O Chem can be very different at different schools. My friends who are pre-meds at less competitive schools took non-calculus based physics, which is basically plug and chug.

I agree with you, MCAT is the equalizer, I'm just speaking from my experience.

Really? How can a test that tests you on 4 classes equalize everything you've learned in undergrad? You can go to an easy school and spend more time studying for the MCAT as compared to going to a harder school and have less time to do things like MCAT review.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

This is definitely the case for the small group of people I know who went to ivies for undergrad. They're also getting medical school (and veterinary school) completely paid for by their parents. I'm on the opposite end of this spectrum.

Ah I know that feeling.

 

[a2014]

A lot of people on SDN don't want to admit it, but your undergrad school does have a pretty significant impact on where you'll go to med school. I'm at a top 10, and the vast majority of my class did their undergrad at an Ivy (~50%) and another 25% did their undergrad at a top-tier non-Ivy (e.g., MIT, Berkeley, Stanford). Only about 15-20% of my class did their undergrad at a state school.

You could argue again that which med school you go to doesn't matter, but if you want to go into a competitive specialty that also isn't true.

 

[darkjedi]

A lot of people on SDN don't want to admit it, but your undergrad school does have a pretty significant impact on where you'll go to med school. I'm at a top 10, and the vast majority of my class did their undergrad at an Ivy (~50%) and another 25% did their undergrad at a top-tier non-Ivy (e.g., MIT, Berkeley, Stanford). Only about 15-20% of my class did their undergrad at a state school.

You could argue again that which med school you go to doesn't matter, but if you want to go into a competitive specialty that also isn't true.

👍

 

[NickNaylor]

A lot of people on SDN don't want to admit it, but your undergrad school does have a pretty significant impact on where you'll go to med school. I'm at a top 10, and the vast majority of my class did their undergrad at an Ivy (~50%) and another 25% did their undergrad at a top-tier non-Ivy (e.g., MIT, Berkeley, Stanford). Only about 15-20% of my class did their undergrad at a state school.

You could argue again that which med school you go to doesn't matter, but if you want to go into a competitive specialty that also isn't true.

I don't think anyone would disagree with the positive aspect of your point (ie, "going to a top undergrad will make it easier for you to get into a top med school"), but many, myself included, would probably disagree with the converse (ie, "not going to a top school will hurt your ability to get into a top school"). A strong applicant is a strong applicant regardless of where they come from, though I would agree that top schools are better able to support their students just because of the immense amount of resources at their disposal. I think you're also sorely underestimating the inherent selection bias when comparing students at Ivies and state schools.

(sent from my phone)

 

[a2014]

Sure there's a selection bias, and I don't disagree that strong applicants can come from anywhere. However, when 75% of seats are given to students from only 10 schools, it makes the competition relatively huge for the remaining 25% of those seats. You just need to be that much stronger of an applicant if you're going to be in that latter crowd.

Now, is it work another $200k in debt? I don't think so, but that's a different argument.

 

[SOMBound13]

Originally Posted by MeGoodManIThink
Physics and O Chem can be very different at different schools. My friends who are pre-meds at less competitive schools took non-calculus based physics, which is basically plug and chug.

I agree with you, MCAT is the equalizer, I'm just speaking from my experience.

Isn't the option of taking non-calculus based physics offered at top schools as well? I don't think top schools require non-STEM premeds to take cal-based physics, do they?

If your friends were certain STEM majors, they would be required to take calc-based physics. As an eng'g major, it was required.

Off-topic. Many of us were req'd to take the "science classes for STEM majors" as pre-meds (and for our STEM majors). From what I understand, some schools (some UCs maybe??) don't require premeds to take the "for majors" science classes. So, for example, some are taking the Bio for non majors or OChem for nursing majors.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought most/all SOMs expect applicants to take the "for majors" science classes. Can someone clarify?

 

[Lamel]

To get a better education?

 

[a2014]

Isn't the option of taking non-calculus based physics offered at top schools as well? I don't think top schools require non-STEM premeds to take cal-based physics, do they?

If your friends were certain STEM majors, they would be required to take calc-based physics. As an eng'g major, it was required.

Off-topic. Many of us were req'd to take the "science classes for STEM majors" as pre-meds (and for our STEM majors). From what I understand, some schools (some UCs maybe??) don't require premeds to take the "for majors" science classes. So, for example, some are taking the Bio for non majors or OChem for nursing majors.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought most/all SOMs expect applicants to take the "for majors" science classes. Can someone clarify?

Never heard of med school really caring which version of classes you take. It'd look better to take the non-major version and get an A than to take the major version and get a B or a C.

Which version of classes you take usually depends on what major you are.

 

[SOMBound13]

A lot of people on SDN don't want to admit it, but your undergrad school does have a pretty significant impact on where you'll go to med school. I'm at a top 10, and the vast majority of my class did their undergrad at an Ivy (~50%) and another 25% did their undergrad at a top-tier non-Ivy (e.g., MIT, Berkeley, Stanford). Only about 15-20% of my class did their undergrad at a state school.

You could argue again that which med school you go to doesn't matter, but if you want to go into a competitive specialty that also isn't true.

I don't think that proves the point that you're trying to make. I think it just suggests that those who go to Top schools are more likely to apply and want to go to Top med schools. It also suggests that most of those who went to Top undergrads had higher high school stats (GPA and SAT/ACT) and higher "smarts" to begin with and so they had what it takes to get into the Top SOMS. If they had opted to go to a non-top undergrad, they likely would have still flourished and would have been in that 15-20% state school group that you mention.

I also know many pre-meds with "top SOM stats" who didn't bother to apply to top SOMs. They have geographical preferences or some other reasons not to want the Top SOM experience.

 

[Person0715]

Top schools often have the most generous financial aid packages. Assuming you get into one and come from a modest background, top schools can be the same price, or even cheaper, than your state school.

 

[SOMBound13]

Isn't the option of taking non-calculus based physics offered at top schools as well? I don't think top schools require non-STEM premeds to take cal-based physics, do they?

If your friends were certain STEM majors, they would be required to take calc-based physics. As an eng'g major, it was required.

Off-topic. Many of us were req'd to take the "science classes for STEM majors" as pre-meds (and for our STEM majors). From what I understand, some schools (some UCs maybe??) don't require premeds to take the "for majors" science classes. So, for example, some are taking the Bio for non majors or OChem for nursing majors.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought most/all SOMs expect applicants to take the "for majors" science classes. Can someone clarify?

Never heard of med school really caring which version of classes you take. It'd look better to take the non-major version and get an A than to take the major version and get a B or a C.

Which version of classes you take usually depends on what major you are.

If that's true, then it would seem that non-science majors would be able to really manipulate their sGPAs. Why bother majoring in a STEM major?

At my undergrad, the pre-med course list only includes the science courses "for science majors". The only option is non-calc physics or calc-based physics. Taking nursing bio or non-majors orgo wouldn't be acceptable. I don't think you could get a Committee Letter if you tried to get by with the sciences for non-majors (easier) courses.

 

[a2014]

Top schools often have the most generous financial aid packages. Assuming you get into one and come from a modest background, top schools can be the same price, or even cheaper, than your state school.

This was true in my case. Got into a good state school and a top 10 private school, and the private school ended up being cheaper even compared to in-state tuition.

 

[ranson]

It's an honest question. I mean, med school is really expensive as it is without 200K+ in undergrad tuition being added on to it. Given that the advantage of a top school in medschool admissions is fairly marginal (compared to Business/Law/Grad), I don't see why a rational actor would make such a choice. Also, it would probably be harder to score solid grades against a crowd of super-competitive, driven, individuals.

Are these people who make such choices so rich and privileged that money ain't a thang to them?

The same can be said about students at less prestigious undergraduate schools who want to get into a top private medical school over their state medical school (where they would save money).

I forgot to add that many students going to top undergraduate schools are interested in academic medicine, and there are more research opportunities at top schools.

 

[a2014]

If that's true, then it would seem that non-science majors would be able to really manipulate their sGPAs. Why bother majoring in a STEM major?

At my undergrad, the pre-med course list only includes the science courses "for science majors". The only option is non-calc physics or calc-based physics. Taking nursing bio or non-majors orgo wouldn't be acceptable. I don't think you could get a Committee Letter if you tried to get by with the sciences for non-majors (easier) courses.

I think the comparison would more be for ochem for chemistry majors vs. ochem for non-chemistry (e.g., bio) majors. Nursing ochem and intro bio aren't the same classes, and med schools know that. Your pre-reqs should be core classes in some science major, just maybe not the major field of that course.

 

[113]

👍

Please... stay safe.

 

[MedPR]

It's an honest question. I mean, med school is really expensive as it is without 200K+ in undergrad tuition being added on to it. Given that the advantage of a top school in medschool admissions is fairly marginal (compared to Business/Law/Grad), I don't see why a rational actor would make such a choice. Also, it would probably be harder to score solid grades against a crowd of super-competitive, driven, individuals.

Are these people who make such choices so rich and privileged that money ain't a thang to them?

because umadbro?

 

[sliceofbread136]

I think alot of people don't realize that aid is pretty easy to get at state schools too. The person who gets into that top school often has to pay zero for tuition at a state school.

 

[NickNaylor]

Sure there's a selection bias, and I don't disagree that strong applicants can come from anywhere. However, when 75% of seats are given to students from only 10 schools, it makes the competition relatively huge for the remaining 25% of those seats. You just need to be that much stronger of an applicant if you're going to be in that latter crowd.

I'm not sure that that's really the case though. I could be wrong (and it certainly wouldn't surprise me if I was), but it's not as if applicants are sorted into "Ivies" and "everyone else" piles and compared to one another. I think you see the Ivies so strongly represented at top med schools because people that go to Ivies are 1) inherently driven and 2) capable of playing admissions games (and let's not fool ourselves - undergrad and med admissions is hardly an evaluation of merit and future promise and more a trick and pony show that those familiar with it get a huge advantage in). I'm not convinced that you're bestowed with some magical aura that admits you to top medical schools just by going to a top tier undergrad. I think you're admitted to top medical schools after attending a top undergrad because you have a strong work ethic and a sense of drive that gives you the ability to jump through hoops like no one else's business. The top undergrad adds value in that you're given access to opportunities that students at less prestigious schools likely don't have: basic things like access to a university-affiliated medical center, tons of faculty doing high quality research, and I'm sure many, many other things I'm not aware of. These things are obviously a huge boon to getting accepted to medical school. It's no surprise that schools at which these opportunities are abundant have students that get into great med schools.

Compare this to, say, my undergrad experience, where the average pre-med student probably scored in the upper 20s/lower 30s (i.e., average), probably didn't do any research, and maybe had a couple of ECs they were involved with but which was nothing to write home about. I didn't even visit my pre-health office until the semester before I applied because I wasn't aware they actually offered opportunities to help improve your app (e.g., things like internships). I was way above average for my undergrad, and yet my app is a joke when compared to many students coming from the top schools. Which school environment do you think is going to place a ton of students into top med schools?

Another way of making my point: if you were to take the entirety of the Harvard student body and move them to whatever legitimate four year university you prefer, I would wholly expect most of them to be competitive for and get accepted to top med schools. Would you disagree? If not, then I think that proves the point that it's more that Ivies attract a certain student rather than education at an Ivy is somehow more superior and advantageous when it comes to med admissions.

 

[Reek]

Sure there's a selection bias, and I don't disagree that strong applicants can come from anywhere. However, when 75% of seats are given to students from only 10 schools, it makes the competition relatively huge for the remaining 25% of those seats. You just need to be that much stronger of an applicant if you're going to be in that latter crowd.

Now, is it work another $200k in debt? I don't think so, but that's a different argument.

I find it hard to believe top schools would consciously save 75% of their seats for graduates of top undergrads, since there's absolutely no good reason to do so. Isn't it more likely that that 120 students were simply the best-qualified candidates? That doesn't mean the other 40 had to work harder to get into a top med school; they had to be just as good.

 

[a2014]

I find it hard to believe top schools would consciously save 75% of their seats for graduates of top undergrads, since there's absolutely no good reason to do so. Isn't it more likely that that 120 students were simply the best-qualified candidates? That doesn't mean the other 40 had to work harder to get into a top med school; they had to be just as good.

I don't think it's a pre-selected sort of thing, but it seems to end up that way in practice. Academic inbreeding is pretty rampant in my experience. I think part of it is that people - ADCOMs included - tend to be more comfortable with whatever they're familiar with. They have experience and know what to expect from a student with a 3.8 from Harvard, whereas they're not entirely sure what a 3.8 student from some unknown state school is capable of.

 

[MiracleforMD]

Really? How can a test that tests you on 4 classes equalize everything you've learned in undergrad? You can go to an easy school and spend more time studying for the MCAT as compared to going to a harder school and have less time to do things like MCAT review.

Because it is standardized for all medical school applicants.*


Nothing is ever truly standardized, but the MCAT is close enough for its purposes.

 

[SOMBound13]

I think alot of people don't realize that aid is pretty easy to get at state schools too. The person who gets into that top school often has to pay zero for tuition at a state school.

That is true for SOME state schools. You don't usually get a free tuition scholarship at most UCs, UIUC, Purdue, UMich, UVA, UNC and a few others if you have top school stats. However, there are some state schools that will give you an assured full tuition scholarship for certain test scores when you also have a high GPA.

Many high stats students whose families can't pay the amount a top school expects them to pay will opt for that route. With a full tuition scholarship, usually about $15k per year takes care of the rest of the costs.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

lol, seriously. Hugh, you are the most naive premed I've ever came across.

 

[KnuxNole]

lol, I thought all biology majors(or other majors taking med school pre-reqs) took non-calc based physics until I browsed this site. Didn't think it was simply a "low tier school" thing 😱

Then again, the MCAT doesn't have calc based physics(which if it did, would make an even bigger weed out exam!)

 

[Reek]

I don't think it's a pre-selected sort of thing, but it seems to end up that way in practice. Academic inbreeding is pretty rampant in my experience. I think part of it is that people - ADCOMs included - tend to be more comfortable with whatever they're familiar with. They have experience and know what to expect from a student with a 3.8 from Harvard, whereas they're not entirely sure what a 3.8 student from some unknown state school is capable of.

I know there's several LizzyM posts to this effect; it makes a slight difference in gpa, but not a huge one. All else being equal, I can see how name would matter, but there's too many variables and I'm not sure it's ever distilled down to such a simple decision. It's easier for me to believe that they're simply stronger applicants on average. I'm not an adcom, of course, so you very well may be right.

 

[HughMyron]

A lot of people on SDN don't want to admit it, but your undergrad school does have a pretty significant impact on where you'll go to med school. I'm at a top 10, and the vast majority of my class did their undergrad at an Ivy (~50%) and another 25% did their undergrad at a top-tier non-Ivy (e.g., MIT, Berkeley, Stanford). Only about 15-20% of my class did their undergrad at a state school.

You could argue again that which med school you go to doesn't matter, but if you want to go into a competitive specialty that also isn't true.

If you're at a US MD, isn't getting into a good specialty more dependent on STEP 1 and rotations?

Of course, all things equal, the Harvard grad will get the nod, and he's probably more likely to have a better STEP and rotation letters and other stuff, but still...

 

[MiracleforMD]

If you're at a US MD, isn't getting into a good specialty more dependent on STEP 1 and rotations?

Of course, all things equal, the Harvard grad will get the nod, and he's probably more likely to have a better STEP and rotation letters and other stuff, but still...

Again, debated. But most agree school name has some un-quantifiable weight.

 

[MeGoodManIThink]

lol, I thought all biology majors(or other majors taking med school pre-reqs) took non-calc based physics until I browsed this site. Didn't think it was simply a "low tier school" thing 😱

Then again, the MCAT doesn't have calc based physics(which if it did, would make an even bigger weed out exam!)

lol I would have loved to take the non-calc version but my school didn't even offer it, and in fact we are required to take the calc version and couldn't take it during the summer at another other school

 

[touchpause13]

lol, I thought all biology majors(or other majors taking med school pre-reqs) took non-calc based physics until I browsed this site. Didn't think it was simply a "low tier school" thing 😱

Then again, the MCAT doesn't have calc based physics(which if it did, would make an even bigger weed out exam!)

Dude me too. At my univ. non calc based physics is for premeds, calc based physics is for engineering majors

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[HughMyron]

lol, seriously. Hugh, you are the most naive premed I've ever came across.

Yeah, and in a couple months I'll be a naive med student, then a resident, and then an attending!

What are you gonna say now, that the system failed? Come at me bro, zero fuarks given.

 

[MeGoodManIThink]

can't we all get along?

 

[PennDippody]

I paid/am in debt for less than 20% of mine - includes living expenses. This was all aid and scholarship - no outside help.

Also, I don't recall actually meeting any ppl at my school that were paying full tuition.

 

[HughMyron]

can't we all get along?

Apparently not, since the woman I quoted above has chosen to indulge her propensity for insults and name-calling. Oh well.

A bit sad, I was hoping to keep this discussion civil. 🙁

 

[La Presse]

Don't mind me. I am just here for the lols. 😛

 

[touchpause13]

Don't mind me. I am just here for the lols. 😛

You and me both sister

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[La Presse]

You and me both sister

Sent from my SCH-I405 using SDN Mobile

....

I'm a bro.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Yeah, and in a couple months I'll be a naive med student, then a resident, and then an attending!

What are you gonna say now, that the system failed? Come at me bro, zero fuarks given.

You mean years, and hopefully by then you won't be so naive.