Why do we need undergrad before medical school?

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pharmacytechguy

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I just dont get it. Other countries ie in Europe follow a nice MBBS system of 6-7 years straight out of high school. Everything they learn (including the pre med stuff) is all medically oriented.

Why is it that US colleges offer General Chemistry and General Biology and med schools still require them? They can be already taken in high school, even at an AP level...which according to my cousins in Britain, are standard there.

Anyone else think getting this B.S or BA degree is a waste of time?

"What about being well rounded?" If you take studies seriously in high school it can happen then.
 
Maturation of character is part of it. As a 5th year, looking back to myself as a 1st year I realized how much I've grown up. Also reading papers from 1st year is just sad.

Also it gives people time to figure out what you want to do before devoting their life to it.

Lots of schools have bs/md programs where you can get out in 2 or 3 for the people who do know going into college that they want to be a doctor.
 
...and as a result, our country produces some of the most highly-regarded physicians in the world.
 
I've thought about this, and while part of me longs for that much more efficient system, I'm personally grateful for these last four years of my life. They were awesome! We have more time to develop interests outside of school/work, develop socially, and even (scary I know) indulge in academic interests outside of science. If I'd gone straight into a medical program, no more world literature/philosophy/humanities for me. And it's fun. Yay college football, ridiculous adventures, etc.

Also, my gen chem training in high school was superb, but the bio was sorely lacking. They'd have to step up quality control in AP classes to accomplish this goal.

And anyway I think the only reason we want this fast-track option is so that we're younger when we're out. I guess you could call college "wasting" time, but I certainly don't feel like I wasted any of it. And besides, what if you didn't know you wanted to pursue medicine until too late?
 
pharmacytechguy said:
Anyone else think getting this B.S or BA degree is a waste of time?
Click to expand...

I think undergraduate degrees give the illusion of maturity and competency - traits that are rarely present in many young and recent graduates (myself included :laugh:).
 
blurry said:
I think undergraduate degrees give the illusion of maturity and competency - traits that are rarely present in many young and recent graduates (myself included :laugh:).
Click to expand...

but didn't you get better at faking maturity after those 4 years?
 
pharmacytechguy said:
"What about being well rounded?" If you take studies seriously in high school it can happen then.
Click to expand...

Well, there ya go!

I do know many who were serious students in high school. I haven't met any who came out of a school system well rounded and with maturity of thought.

As a previous poster implied, it takes them a few years to realize how immature they were at the time. Yes, even those who took their academics seriously.

Another thing to consider is that not all high schools are able to offer a selection of AP courses. The composition of their student bodies and/or the availability of appropriate instructors are limiting factors.

It is totally possible to condense an undergrad education and med school into 7 years because an undergrad degree can be completed in three if you maintain a heavy enough course load and attend summer sessions. That doesn't leave as much time available for the other aspects of college, community, and personal life, though.

No, I don't think it's a waste of time getting a bachelor's degree first.
 
The maturity you'll gain is invaluable. I have yet to meet anyone with a high maturity level coming out of high school. High school grads are usually generally: naive, arrogant, disillusioned, angry at the world or a bliss-ninny, unable to cope with loss or failure, have an extremely limited perspective, devoid of tact, incapable of compromising with their emotions, far too concerned with the trivial such as material posessions/how many times they can get laid/finding true love/anything else that just comes with time...

...and the list can go on and on.

Plus college is a lot of fun, you'll meet interesting people and learn a lot about yourself because of the many ways it will test your limits. My advice: don't resent having to go to college; enjoy it. In the end, I think you won't regret having to go.
 
Rotinaj said:
The maturity you'll gain is invaluable. I have yet to meet anyone with a high maturity level coming out of high school. High school grads are usually generally: naive, arrogant, disillusioned, angry at the world or a bliss-ninny, unable to cope with loss or failure, have an extremely limited perspective, devoid of tact, incapable of compromising with their emotions, far too concerned with the trivial such as material posessions/how many times they can get laid/finding true love/anything else that just comes with time...

...and the list can go on and on.
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Except for me. 😉
 
Why are all the best doctors in the U.S.?
 
....yea theres no good doctors anywhere else in the world


hahah
 
I would have to agree with some of what I have seen here. I don't see alot of correlation between undergrad and medical school unless you did some sort of ultra pre-med track. I spoken with some of the biologists and chemists in my class and they agree.

Some schools still have a six year program, however they are being phased out.

I do have to agree with the maturation process though. Passing though the fire of engineering school made me grow up quite a bit. Had I not done that, I don't think I would be mature enough to survive the medical school gauntlet.
 
Perhaps they don't think we're mature enough. Which isn't far from the truth. All other countries have the legal drinking age at 18, some even younger yet we have the highest age limit 21....not mature enough
 
Well they do still have to learn biology and chemistry and physics, they just do all of it in their first year, which I think is pretty efficient (albeit ridiculously difficult I bet). I went to France over the summer and was shadowing doctors in a hospital; the med students would constantly be making fun of me for having to do 4 years of what they get done in one.🙄 It made me sad.
 
i wasnt replying to the thread i was replying to spamalot

and i guess most kids arent mature enough out of high school and so the 4 years of college definitely helps a lot
and
for those that are mature enough they have 6 and 7 year programs
 
skyeblue0610 said:
Perhaps they don't think we're mature enough. Which isn't far from the truth. All other countries have the legal drinking age at 18, some even younger yet we have the highest age limit 21....not mature enough
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I don't think that's about maturity. I'm pretty sure that's due to MADD lobbying for a higher legal drinking age. Quoteth wikipedia:

"The group had its greatest success with the imposition of a 1984 federal law that required states to raise the minimum legal age for purchase and possession (but not the drinking age) to 21 or lose federal highway funding. After the United States Supreme Court upheld the law in the 1987 case of South Dakota v. Dole, every state capitulated."

In other words, we can't purchase alcohol until we're 21. There are exceptions in many states to the drinking age of 21 - if you're in a "private" setting, with family, certain locales, etc.

I mean, it certainly isn't because the kids in the US are any less mature than those anywhere else. Though I think a) we drive more and b) alcohol isn't usually introduced early (like wine with dinner) and so it's more of a "drink-to-get-drunk culture."
//

That's interesting, all this talk of maturity, because my first thought was of all the fun things you get to do when you go to undergrad. Immature? Haha. But at an interview, a med student did tell me that people that go into medical school looking to "find themselves" will be destroyed. Apparently you really need a strong sense of self to get through the process. So I guess maturity is key.
 
In days of yore (beginning of the 20th century), one only had to have the ability to pay tuition to get into a medical school (the tuition was also affordable, further limiting barriers to entry into the profession). However, medical schools were of low quality and produced equally poor doctors. Medicine was less of an academic pursuit. The founding of Johns Hopkins provoked some changes as this school...gasp...made having a bachelor's degree a requirement for entry. The 1910 Flexner Report lauded JHU and a few other institutions while revealing that most US medical schools were lacking in quality and were in existence for profit rather than for furthering knowledge.

Are you suggesting that we go back to the way things were? When medicine was a trade and not an academic profession? Remember, physicians aren't called merely to have a large fund of applicable knowledge. Rather, they are taught medicine in order to heal and to be in a position to extend this knowledge in new ways. Such a commitment requires academic maturity which comes partially through undergraduate education. Note that this doesn't even factor maturity of character (another thing that comes with age) which is probably equally or more important.
 
MarySue99 said:
Well they do still have to learn biology and chemistry and physics, they just do all of it in their first year, which I think is pretty efficient (albeit ridiculously difficult I bet). I went to France over the summer and was shadowing doctors in a hospital; the med students would constantly be making fun of me for having to do 4 years of what they get done in one.🙄 It made me sad.
Click to expand...

Not especially. Imagine a schedule like this for one year of college:

Semester I

Gen Chem I and II condensed course
Bio I
Physics I

Semester 2

Org Chem I and II concensed course
Bio II
Physics II

Doesn't really seem all that bad to me. Also the stuff they learn in that year will be much less general and more specially geared towards their profession, so really it's not like they're completing the curriculum that we take in 4 years in 1. Still, I did meet a kid from India who had to take organic chemistry in high school, so we are behind other nations in some areas.
 
it keeps *******es out...jk:laugh:

no but seriously, if we got rid of undergrad, high school would get SOOOO competitive...definitely not fun
 
A few reasons why:
1. The need for mature doctors. Hopefully a 26-year-old is more mature than a 22-year-old.
2. The need for committed doctors who love learning. I know lots of people who didn't go premed because they'd have to be in school "like, forever".
3. The need to reduce number potential doctors
a. to make sure there is high demand for doctors. The US stopped openning up med schools (allopathic) in the 80s to restrict the supply of doctors
b. because training doctors takes up a lot of resources. The fewer the trainees, the more resources to go around.
 
Kundog223-"3. The need to reduce number potential doctors
a. to make sure there is high demand for doctors. The US stopped openning up med schools (allopathic) in the 80s to restrict the supply of doctors
b. because training doctors takes up a lot of resources. The fewer the trainees, the more resources to go around."

This is a bit off topic, I will mention it anyway because I think it is interesting. I have heard that because of the difficulty of getting into medical school and becoming a doctor in the US, there is a constant shortage of doctors in the US. However instead of that 'making sure there is a high demand for doctors' as kundog wrote, it has actually just caused a large influx of foreign doctors (think of the large numbers of Indian doctors who have came to the US lately). This has some people thinking that they should make medical school more accessible to US students in order to fill the demand with US doctors instead of foreign ones.

Seems like maybe another way the US is a bit behind the rest of the world. BTW, I am not convinced US doctors are any better than European doctors, despite the additional schooling.
 
pharmacytechguy said:
I just dont get it. Other countries ie in Europe follow a nice MBBS system of 6-7 years straight out of high school. Everything they learn (including the pre med stuff) is all medically oriented.

Why is it that US colleges offer General Chemistry and General Biology and med schools still require them? They can be already taken in high school, even at an AP level...which according to my cousins in Britain, are standard there.

Anyone else think getting this B.S or BA degree is a waste of time?

"What about being well rounded?" If you take studies seriously in high school it can happen then.
Click to expand...

The current US medical system came later than its counterparts. We decided it was a mistake to have people go straight from high school because (1) you lose out on becoming well rounded, something that can only occur in college because the level and kind of material in high school is quite basic. And (2) there are benefits to being 4 years more "seasoned" before you start. You cannot expand your horizons with high school courses the way you can with college. If you think a BA/BS is a waste, then I agree, you probably have wasted it. But you had the opportunity to do more. If you peaked in well roundedness and maturity in high school, that is quite sad, actually.

Med schools are increasingly accepting non-sci majors, and folks who do not fit the traditional bio major mold in growing percentages each year. Medicine is not as much a science as a service industry, and service industries are largely about working with people (not microbes). Your patients are going to want to talk to you about things other than science. I've had a much easier time finding common ground with patients as a former lawyer and nonsci major than I have with the medical stuff. And certainly when you are dealing with death and disease, there are advantages to having been around the block a few more years.

Additionally, foreign med schools have high attrition rates compared to the US. This is because when you go into something right after high school, you are generally not well thought out, maybe less focused on medicine. So people drop out and fail out in much larger numbers than their American counterparts. College provides folks the opportunity to try other things, explore other interests, and only then decide if med school is the best fit for them. It thus results in better thought out folks who more often really want to be there and are ready to put in the appropriate effort. In the US, once getting in, few will drop out, a negligible percentage fail out --most will become doctors. I'd take this system any day.

And no, college before med school doesn't reduce the number of doctors. There is a steady stream of folks coming out of college who want to become doctors each year. 50% of applicants to med school get turned away, and many more of them are adequate to become doctors (and many do in later years or via foreign routes). There is plenty of capacity to make more doctors if it were deemed wise. So that doctor limiting argument is flawed.

Doesn't mean better doctors, but for the US, and the goals it seeks to accomplish, it's a much better system.
 
i was mean 🙁
 
HumidBeing said:
Excellent volley! You do win.... except that I never went to high school. I can't claim to be a representative of that population.
Click to expand...

Curses, my logic has been dashed!
 
kundog223 said:
3. The need to reduce number potential doctors
a. to make sure there is high demand for doctors. The US stopped openning up med schools (allopathic) in the 80s to restrict the supply of doctors
Click to expand...
What do you mean they reduced potential doctors to raise demand? Why would they want to simply raise demand?
 
We don't really need undergraduate school for medical school. There is still a need for undergraduate school though. I'm glad that Americans can go to undergraduate school and have the chance to explore what they enjoy. People in most countries don't have this chance.

I feelt that I didn't learn much in undergraduate school but I know I did. I got the feeling of not knowing much when I left undergraduate school because I knew I didn't know much. You don't realize how much you don't know as a freshman in college.
 
bigDee said:
What do you mean they reduced potential doctors to raise demand? Why would they want to simply raise demand?
Click to expand...

I just think that this another probable reason why it has become a requirement for future physicians. I say probably because since the late 70s until about the mid 90s, the Council on Graduate Medical Education and even the American Medical Assocaition have been focused on restricting the supply of physicians in the US. The reason for this being that there were a dramatic increase in the number of trained physicians in the 60s and 70s. At one point there were 2 newly trained physicians for every 1 retired. Up until recently, the AMA had strongly affirmed that "an oversupply exists or is immediately expected." So, for about the last 20 years the supply of new doctors produced every year has remained steady at 25,000. The result has been a huge, increasing shortage of physicians (because of increased life expectancy and the aging baby-boomer population), a huge influx of foreign grads, an expansion of osteopathic medical programs. The focus of groups like the CGME and AMA has only recently changed.
 
My personal reasons for why I am glad that I am going to college prior to going to med school:
1) After two years of upper division molecular bio courses, I have an extremely strong grasp of the molecular basis of medicine. I wouldn't know as much if I only took the 2 years of lower-div science classes
2) I studied Spanish for 4 yrs in high school, and now 4 yrs in college. There aren't very many opportunities to take Spanish poetry classes in med school, so I am glad that I had the opportunity in undergrad to do something like this.
3) RANDOM classes. When else, besides college, can you take a random film, archaeology, or art class every quarter?

In summary, college is good for learning all the things that you will not learn or will only briefly go over in med school.
 
wisconsindoctor said:
I feelt that I didn't learn much in undergraduate school but I know I did. I got the feeling of not knowing much when I left undergraduate school because I knew I didn't know much. You don't realize how much you don't know as a freshman in college.
Click to expand...

Ha, true...Funny, though, there is no doubt in my mind that I learned A LOT in my first semester of medical school. Anatomy, especially, pops into my mind at random moments. Like when I was eating pizza earlier and suddenly started thinking about innervation of the tongue, palate, and pharynx...
 
I think what is missing from this conversation if the realization that there is very little difference timewise between a 7-year program in Europe and the "traditional" course here in the US. Note that it is common for high-school graduates in Europe to take a "gap year" before attending university, which is not so common here in the US. Therefore, for those that go straight through - high-school, college, medical school - there is little-to-no difference in the age of graduation from medical school, etc. Even if a student in Europe did not take a gap-year, in the long-run, that 1-year difference is not monumental.

Additionally, I think the separation between college and medical school gives people the opportunity to change their mind. I would estimate that about 30-40% of the incoming class at my college was thinking about pre-med. That number dropped by half after one year of college and continued to dwindle as we went along. That doesn't reflect poorly on the academic abilities, discipline, or focus of most of those individuals. Most people just found other academic/career paths they liked better. I think this would be harder to do in the 6- and 7-year environment that exists in the UK. I think that if you decide at 19 that you don't want to pursue medicine after all, you should have that option and you should be able to make it without the fear that you're 2 or 3 years into a medical program already and you'll be severely compromising your educational prospects if you don't continue.

Lastly, life is not medicine. I don't really care how many AP courses you take in high school, you really don't have the opportunity to explore other interests in high school the way you do in college. I wouldn't trade my anthropology classes in college to be one year closer to a medical degree. I have abilities, because of college, that I didn't have at 17 when I matriculated. I was an excellent writer leaving high-school (with a 5 on the AP exam), but with nowhere near the ability I had by the time I left college (but I also attended a college with a universal focus on writing ability). True, many of the things we do in college here students in the 6- and 7-year programs in the UK do also. But I still believe there is a certain freedom in the way things are done here in the US that can't be replicated if you've already committed yourself to a medical degree at the age of 17 or 18. This is probably the reason that we don't have more of the 7-year programs here in the US. They do exist but are few and far between - most likely because the demand just isn't that high.
 
I for one am glad that you have to do a 4 year prior to attending medical school. I probably wouldn't have gotten accepted to medical school straight out of high school--well at least not at the places I wanted. If anything, there should be premed programs at universities that do not require you to take elective courses (which I personally think are a waste of time in some aspects). Still, to think of what I would have missed out on if I had not had to go to college for four years. . . .
 
Law2Doc said:
You cannot expand your horizons with high school courses the way you can with college.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I know a sophomore in college who is more than intellectually capable of handling medical school, and he was fairly certain that he wanted to be physician. In a direct-to-med-school country, he probably would have done so. However, in college, he began getting involved in a lot of other student groups and has now started his own magazine that is published on numerous campuses. Now he thinks he wants to go into legislation or public policy of some sort. High school simply lacks the resources to expose you to the things that college can.
 
I'm going to give my two cents on this topic. I know several people who were in honor and IB or AP classes in highschool, but they wouldn't trade their undergrad years for anything. Whether it was the football games, or volunteer abroad trips or things like alternative spring break or camp boggy creek trips, or whether it was student organizations (frats/sororities, premed organizations, cultural organizations, etc.), they were experiences that were among the types of experiences med school won't afford the time for.

I'm in a graduate program, and I can tell you now when I am studying molecular medicine masters courses 10 hours a day for 3 weeks straight for a test and there is a limited amount of people you really come across, I'm thankful for being able to meet different kind of people from different cultures.

The friends and memories I made in college are invaluable. I think some of the bestfrnds you make, you make in your college career. I know people who've used their college careers to do things like study abroad, learn different languages including american sign language and then used these language skills in a work setting. I know others who've used this time to go explore other jobs by working in jobs like teaching or doing majors like engineering to see if maybe they want to do that instead and so forth.
 
paranoid_eyes said:
it keeps *******es out...jk:laugh:

no but seriously, if we got rid of undergrad, high school would get SOOOO competitive...definitely not fun
Click to expand...

In France anyway, anyone can go to med school. It's just that after the first year, you have to take a very difficult test and only about 10% of students score high enough to stay in medical school. The others can pursue nursing or be midwives, etc. So, that explains the attrition rates also; if you kick out 90% of students, obviously not many are staying. You can also retake the first year later on if you feel that you have "matured" and get into med school later. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I personally would have liked to only have to score high enough on one test, rather than go through this process...
 
We dont need undergrad.
Its a system for universities to make money.
Although undergrad does have its pro's(gaining maturity),
I believe that we dont need it.
 
Because kids should not have to decide what they want to do for rest of their lives. An 18 year old is still immature to make such a big decision. In Pakistan, students have to decide what they want to do in 9th grade. Which is horrible because a 14 year old does not have the capability to know what they want out of life...
 
In addition to the maturity factor already mentioned here, I came from a tiny high school in the middle of nowhere. It offered no AP science courses and nothing beyond introduction in most everything else. I was in no way ready for a medical school regimen coming in as a first year, and I doubt many people were. Undergrad allows everyone to get caught up coming from different backgrounds and learn how to study and think more efficiently.

The keggers aren't bad either.
 
pharmacytechguy said:
Why do we need undergrad before medical school?
I just dont get it. Other countries ie in Europe follow a nice MBBS system of 6-7 years straight out of high school. Everything they learn (including the pre med stuff) is all medically oriented.

Why is it that US colleges offer General Chemistry and General Biology and med schools still require them? They can be already taken in high school, even at an AP level...which according to my cousins in Britain, are standard there.

Anyone else think getting this B.S or BA degree is a waste of time?
Click to expand...

We need it to weed out all those people who think they want to be doctors, but stop wanting to be doctors once they step back and consider another profession. Seriously - half of everyone I know started college as a pre-med, and if we let all of the go straight into med school we'd end up with a lot of people who aren't cut out for the profession. If you're ever tempted to just go with your "back-up" plan instead of doing med school, residency, etc, their plan is working. 😀
 
maestro1625 said:
🙄 I love the detail expressed there.

ok, but since I'd had a few when I posted earlier in this thread, let me just sum it up simply:

one should NOT be allowed to commit to a career in medicine while they still live with their parents.
Click to expand...
Oh darn. Did i just do that?
 
maestro1625 said:
🙄 I love the detail expressed there.

ok, but since I'd had a few when I posted earlier in this thread, let me just sum it up simply:

one should NOT be allowed to commit to a career in medicine while they still live with their parents.
Click to expand...

Oh gee, I better drop my acceptance to medical school then. 🙄
 
maestro1625 said:
🙄 I love the detail expressed there.

ok, but since I'd had a few when I posted earlier in this thread, let me just sum it up simply:

one should NOT be allowed to commit to a career in medicine while they still live with their parents.
Click to expand...

I hate to point it out, but a lot of people live with their parents while in college especially if they are from Asian or foreign backgrounds where parents don't necessarily believe in making them get their own place after a certain age.

I know of many indian kids that lived with their parents in college. In india people live with their parents til they get married. If they are boys, they stay with their parents after marriage and live as an extended famil with sons, their wives, their children, and parents living together. I've heard similar sort of living arrangements exist in many arab countries where even though the man may have multiple wives, his different wives and children all live together sometimes under one room.

So living on your own means nothing.
 
Spin said:
We need it to weed out all those people who think they want to be doctors, but stop wanting to be doctors once they step back and consider another profession. Seriously - half of everyone I know started college as a pre-med, and if we let all of the go straight into med school we'd end up with a lot of people who aren't cut out for the profession. If you're ever tempted to just go with your "back-up" plan instead of doing med school, residency, etc, their plan is working. 😀
Click to expand...

Seriously I think a lot of people in this country do not really have an idea of what they want to do untilthey get to college. A lot of people who go into medicine sorely regret it and if you don't give them this chance to back out before they get in to deep, we'll see even bigger problems then we currently have with overly unhappy doctors.
 
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