why do you need a bachelor's degree before medical school?

BU Medical Sciences
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
M

mourinho

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2011
Messages
43
Reaction score
0
Anyone think that this is not fair since it just increases future doctors' debts? There should be a medical school of 5 years duration with the additional first year to cover the prerequisites needed for entry to med school...
Members don't see this ad.
 
mourinho said:
Anyone think that this is not fair since it just increases future doctors' debts? There should be a medical school of 5 years duration with the additional first year to cover the prerequisites needed for entry to med school...
Click to expand...

There are some 6 year, after High School, programs.
 
In many other countries a 6 year med school program starting right after high school is the standard. There are some definite upsides to this, but some downsides as well. There may be less preparation for med school, schools have much less to go on for admissions decisions, students may not get a chance to be sure they want to go into medicine, and so on. I've heard about some biases against 6 year med programs in residency match (spoke to students who were regular MD students at UMKC and said they tried to make clear they were not BS/MD students for match). But it may be beneficial to move toward this, especially since the liberal arts education concept, while honorable, goes largely wasted on many (most?) who just take bs classes to fill gen ed requirements and learn nothing in them.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
4 years in undergrad helps you mature and gives you time to do stuff like shadowing and volunteering to make sure medicine is something you really want to do.
 
The standard in many countries is to start med school right after high school. Personally, I wish it would be the same way in the US as well.
 
Well, first, it is worth pointing out that you don't technically need a Bachelors Degree before medical school. The majority of applicants do it have now, however, and you likely won't get in without one.

It also worth pointing out that, though those in other countries have a four year head start on the majority of US students, they are not really saving time. Two of that four year advantage goes away because the majority of their schools have a six year curriculum. The rest of it goes away when you consider the fact that, in many of these countries (such as the UK), their residencies are much longer than ours. What is a four year residency here can take up to 7 - 9 years to complete (usually 8 - 9) there.

As for why a BA/BS is an unwritten requirement for US and Canadian MD/DO schools, I am unsure. I would assume it has something to do with wanting people to mature, be sure that medicine is right for them, to prove they can handle the academics, etc. Quite frankly, I'm happy our system works this way as, if my acceptance into medical school was based upon my high school performance, I would have no hope (heh).
 
The LCME document "Functions and Structure of a Medical School" says the following:
Ordinarily, four years of undergraduate education are necessary to prepare for entrance into an M.D. degree program. However, some special programs (e.g., combined baccalaureate-M.D. programs) may permit a reduction in this time period. A broad-based undergraduate education that includes the social sciences, history, arts, and languages is increasingly important for the development of physician competencies outside of the scientific knowledge domain.
Click to expand...
Basically, they don't want super science nerds is what it sounds like
 
I think it's a good thing that med schools force you to take the time to get a bachelor's prior to matriculating.

In other countries where people go directly into med school out if high school, people essentially have to make a career decision as a teenager. Can you imagine that? Being 14 and being told you've to make a decision that will pretty much be your career until you retire or die. Or worse, having that decision made for you. Getting an undergrad degree first lets you mature so you can make an informed decision.

Should also point out that other countries have smarter high school students where they learn much more stuff by the time they graduate high school. Probably on the order of the first couple years of college in the US.
 
dmf2682 said:
Should also point out that other countries have smarter high school students where they learn much more stuff by the time they graduate high school. Probably on the order of the first couple years of college in the US.
Click to expand...

I forget about that point; however, it is an important one.

This goes beyond just high school, too. Their Bachelors degrees are more like our Masters degrees and the first couple years of a PhD program (ex, the coursework). By the time they get to the PhD, in many countries, the students are just allowed to go off on their own and jump into research.
 
Starlightembers said:
It also worth pointing out that, though those in other countries have a four year head start on the majority of US students, they are not really saving time. Two of that four year advantage goes away because the majority of their schools have a six year curriculum. The rest of it goes away when you consider the fact that, in many of these countries (such as the UK), their residencies are much longer than ours. What is a four year residency here can take up to 7 - 9 years to complete (usually 8 - 9) there.
Their residencies aren't 80 work weeks and doctors don't have a 250,000 debt burden to carry around.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
notbobtrustme said:
Their residencies aren't 80 work weeks and doctors don't have a 250,000 debt burden to carry around.
Click to expand...

I am aware of both of these things. I was just stating that starting right out of high school does not save them anytime, age-wise.
 
There are clearly pros and cons to both sides.

In the UK students take 5-6 years after A-levels to become a physician, then go through residency etc. I have a friend who is very passionate about medicine in his 5th year but I bet there are a good number who regretted going into it. In those cases, it may be more beneficial to explore, and our UG years are ideal for that. In addition, we mature (or most of us anyway) and develop many traits that are important in a good physician, such as patience, compassion, and problem-solving abilities(aka MCAT/other academic work during UG years).

I think our system is long, but there are certainly nice aspects 👍
 
BurntFlower said:
The standard in many countries is to start med school right after high school. Personally, I wish it would be the same way in the US as well.
Click to expand...

This format existed when US med schools came into being and the straight through alternatives were soundly rejected. The thought was that a well rounded and well read person with a multitude of experiences and time to mature makes for a better US doctor than someone thrust right into biochem at 17. Seems to work pretty well for us, and we have actually expanded on this viewpoint, with increased numbers of non-sciece majors, nontrads and career changers strengthening our ranks, going down this path many years later. The expectation of US patients is different than in some of our European counterparts, and our system seves us better for our patient base. Medicine isn't really practiced the same everywhere, so you need a system that trains people in the way that serves your patient base best.
 
canadian18 said:
I agree with this. It's just part of the game. You don't get to ask questions. You just play along.
Click to expand...

I'm going to say that I had a "Freudian thought" when I read this... what I read the first time through was "you just PAY along."

That being said, I think that the "we want to make sure that you want to be a doctor" argument is BS. I personally knew that I have wanted to be a doctor since I was super little. What I think we need is the two entry method like in the UK. There, you can do the 6 year plan straight from high school or the 4 year plan after a bachelors.
 
I wish it wasn't an unwritten rule though because that does cause confusion. The admissions requirements page on most medschool websites say all you need is 90 credits/three years but in reality you need the bachelors (120 credits).
 
College is the best 4 years of your life. If it isn't, you're doing something wrong. It gives you time to mature and get life experience, things you won't have as much time for in medical school.
 
Most countries (the ones with somewhat competitive med school admissions) have longer/more rigorous high schools curriculums (with the whole A levels and O levels thing in Asian and European countries).

Also, America has really competitive admissions, if everyone was given 1-2 years of pre reqs to prove what they could do we would have 42k+ identical applicants.
 
Let's face it, American high schools suck. I don't care what magnet/charter/college prep school you went to. They all function the same basic way. The smartest nerd from an American high school wouldn't survive in a high school in Vietnam. This is part of the reason colleges have such ridiculously high drop-out rates after the first year. For those who do finish undergrad, they come out a different person than how they entered. A 22/23 year old is way more mature (or should be) than a 17/18 year old. Those years of undergrad are needed for growth and development.
 
Am I the only one who was a complete idiot as an 18 year old? College allows time for personal development and maturity.
 
Whatyousay said:
USA! USA! USA!

'merica!
Click to expand...

9/11, and also Texas.

Seriously though, as someone with an unrelated BA and MS degree, I do value the experience of different classes and different experiences. I feel like it makes me a bit better equipped to relate to a wide range of patients.

On the other side, if you know you want to do medicine from the beginning, the 4 year degree is a waste of money. Especially since the pre-reqs and science courses in general are so time consuming, so it is hard to really want to take equally time consuming courses in other areas like History or the Arts. Not to mention that pre-meds have the added pressure of doing substantial ECs, getting clinical experience, doing research, etc.

I think the 4 year degree could be more valuable, and certainly some students now major in other fields aside from the sciences, take foreign languages, and even double or triple major. I think for most students however, they just take what they have to and look for what looks the best for the least amount of effort they have to divert from the plethora of other things that pre-meds are expected to do; and I cannot fault them.
 
Stumpyman said:
...

Also, America has really competitive admissions, if everyone was given 1-2 years of pre reqs to prove what they could do we would have 42k+ identical applicants.
Click to expand...

yeah, the competitiveness is a byproduct of another thing the US does "right" in my opinion. We make people showcase their talents first, while in college and sometimes beyond, such that adcoms can select a class that will almost definitely make it through. As a result very few people fail out, and quality stays high. Under the other system, nobody has demonstrated their aptitude yet, and so the attrition rate in some countries is huge -- they have to fail people out to keep the quality similarly high. That's a much meaner system. It's much better to know that once you have gotten in, you are going to be a doctor. In the US the person with the worst grades in med school is still going to be called doctor. Not so in countries where you are admitted right out of high school.
 
I am very excited about medicine but going to a liberal arts college taught me how to think and I had so many wonderful classes completely unrelated to science or medicine. I am a much more well-rounded person than I would have been otherwise and I wouldn't trade college for anything!
 
iqe2010 said:
Let's face it, American high schools suck. I don't care what magnet/charter/college prep school you went to. They all function the same basic way. The smartest nerd from an American high school wouldn't survive in a high school in Vietnam. This is part of the reason colleges have such ridiculously high drop-out rates after the first year. For those who do finish undergrad, they come out a different person than how they entered. A 22/23 year old is way more mature (or should be) than a 17/18 year old. Those years of undergrad are needed for growth and development.
Click to expand...
Yeah, no. I'd love to see what kind of evidence you have to support that the country that has arguably the best colleges in the world (or at least quite a few of them) doesn't have students that could hang with those in Vietnam.
 
Atherosclerosis said:
Am I the only one who was a complete idiot as an 18 year old? College allows time for personal development and maturity.
Click to expand...

I'm 28 and still consider myself a complete idiot at times. But it's all relative, and most college kids are more of one than me. I'd say any time, including college, allows time for development, and some folks are faster than others.
 
dmf2682 said:
I'm 28 and still consider myself a complete idiot at times. But it's all relative, and most college kids are more of one than me. I'd say any time, including college, allows time for development, and some folks are faster than others.
Click to expand...

This is very true. Many people do not realize how much they change from age 18-22 or 23. People that have met me in the past couple years would not even believe that my high school/early college years self was the same person if they met him. 😀
 
MedTG said:
This is very true. Many people do not realize how much they change from age 18-22 or 23. People that have met me in the past couple years would not even believe that my high school/early college years self was the same person if they met him. 😀
Click to expand...

How about the people who have not met you? Will they be under the impression that you have changed quite drastically since high school/early college when they first meet you? Lastly, in what way or form have you changed? 😕

😎
 
Move to Texas- as a non trad you dont have to have one. 90 Semester hours to apply. 🙂
 
Because a 17/18 year-old fresh outta high school would know what they want to do for the rest of their lives right...?
In case you are sarcastically-impaired I wasn't being serious ^^
 
BurntFlower said:
The standard in many countries is to start med school right after high school. Personally, I wish it would be the same way in the US as well.
Click to expand...
Ditto.
The stuff we learn in 4-year undergrad is totally irrelevant to med school.

Let's face it, American high schools suck.
Click to expand...
This, too.
The quality of high school education varies so much because hs education is controlled at the local level, not at federal or state level, so naturally, the wealthier neighborhoods get better education while most inner-city schools are sub-par with ridiculously low expectations (I tutored the inner-city hs kids).

I'd love to see what kind of evidence you have to support that the country that has arguably the best colleges in the world (or at least quite a few of them) doesn't have students that could hang with those in Vietnam.
Click to expand...
Please visit Asia. You'll see that what you learn in 10th grade in America is learned in 7th grade in Japan, Vietnam, China, etc.
Please visit Europe. You'll see that what you learn in 10th grade in America is learned in 8th grade in England, German, etc.
 
Stumpyman said:
America has really competitive admissions, if everyone was given 1-2 years of pre reqs to prove what they could do we would have 42k+ identical applicants.
Click to expand...
The MOST competitive, so to speak.

But in other parts of the world, students don't need to do nearly as much ECs as we do here to get into medical school. In Asia, they have very clear cut-offs; you've got the stats, you're in! Doesn't matter if you don't do any volunteer work. That's not good, IMO.
 
notbobtrustme said:
JESSFALLING said:
you also need much less money to live comfortably in Europe. 100k in Europe goes a LOT further than 100k in America.
Click to expand...

Have you ever been inside a market in France, Germany, or Italy? Prices are 3x what you pay in America and you pay roughly 50% of your salary to the state. Europeans live at a significantly lower quality than Americans. This is also exasperated by the fact that Airconditioning is not a complementary amenity and likewise water costs a lot more leading the majority to shower infrequently.

But what do I know...
Click to expand...
 
Undergrad years (and an undergrad degree) also give most US med students a stronger background in understanding and carrying out scientific research
 
School systems are set up completely different in every country and comparing them is stupid and a waste of time.

In other countries, they do learn more in high school (doesn't necessarily mean they're smarter, it's just different) and many people do not attend college. While here in the US, much more learning goes on in college. We have the top universities in the world at our disposal (seriously, even international groups rankings have 7 or 8 US universities in the top 10 rankings).

Our system is set up to go to high school, then college, then med school. We also tend to produce the best doctors in the world. If you can afford it, this is the best place to be (as an aside before you try and counter this, the current unhealthy population has little to do with the quality of our doctors and is more societal. Access to medical care plays a very small role in the overall health of people).

Also, you do a lot of maturing in college. If we had to enter med school right after high school, I would not be in medical school now and I would not be nearly mature enough to handle med school.

All of you in a rush to get into med school, just slow down.
 
Barcu said:
... (as an aside before you try and counter this, the current unhealthy population has little to do with the quality of our doctors and is more societal. Access to medical care plays a very small role in the overall health of people).
...
Click to expand...

on the other hand bad health habits probably demand more health care and better quality of physcians. Most likely, however, it's not quality of physicians but rather medical technology- imagine all that money government pumps in research in science and technolgy- that is superior in US. Interestingly in sciences at major universities 30 to 40% PhD students are foreigners. Admissions to medicine is more or less controlled to American students.
 
PhoenixFire said:
Please visit Asia. You'll see that what you learn in 10th grade in America is learned in 7th grade in Japan, Vietnam, China, etc.
Please visit Europe. You'll see that what you learn in 10th grade in America is learned in 8th grade in England, German, etc.
Click to expand...
you are facepalmingly confounding curricular rigor and student aptitude; moreover, these countries employ sink-or-swim model in these classes. you think even a majority of the students in these countries are learning math and science at this level successfully? the kids here that go on to the mit and harvards of the world can undoubtedly succeed in such schools as well.
 
PhoenixFire said:
The MOST competitive, so to speak.

But in other parts of the world, students don't need to do nearly as much ECs as we do here to get into medical school. In Asia, they have very clear cut-offs; you've got the stats, you're in! Doesn't matter if you don't do any volunteer work. That's not good, IMO.
Click to expand...

Well, see we have the most competitive admissions on an extra-curricular basis. Like you said, asian/european countries don't need any ECs whatsoever, but their stats are just outstanding. For example, in India they have close to 16,000 applicants for one seat in medical school 😱
 
IMSingular said:
on the other hand bad health habits probably demand more health care and better quality of physcians. Most likely, however, it's not quality of physicians but rather medical technology- imagine all that money government pumps in research in science and technolgy- that is superior in US. Interestingly in sciences at major universities 30 to 40% PhD students are foreigners. Admissions to medicine is more or less controlled to American students.
Click to expand...

Partially true. However, we tend to exaggerate the role of physicians and access to healthcare in promoting healthy behaviors. Where you live,your level of education, your social support system, your income, your race are factors that have a far, far bigger impact than any physician ever could. And this is true whether are system stays reactive (like it is now) or if it became more preventive. Being more preventive would certainly help, but our sorry state of health will not improve without improvements in education, poverty, etc.
 
In other countries, they do learn more in high school (doesn't necessarily mean they're smarter, it's just different) and many people do not attend college. While here in the US, much more learning goes on in college.
Click to expand...
Why should one go to college and pay substantially more $$$ to take pre-reqs if they have the option to do so in high school?
Sad to say, the Bachelor's degree nowadays is the new high school diploma.
I strongly believe that (the majority of) American students should have the option to straight from HS --> med school if they wish.

Also, you do a lot of maturing in college. If we had to enter med school right after high school, I would not be in medical school now and I would not be nearly mature enough to handle med school.
Click to expand...
^ Can't make that assumption about everyone, or most.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Neurosis said:
Because a 17/18 year-old fresh outta high school would know what they want to do for the rest of their lives right...?
In case you are sarcastically-impaired I wasn't being serious ^^
Click to expand...

Not uncommon... I knew and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

serenade said:
notbobtrustme said:
Have you ever been inside a market in France, Germany, or Italy? Prices are 3x what you pay in America and you pay roughly 50% of your salary to the state. Europeans live at a significantly lower quality than Americans. This is also exasperated by the fact that Airconditioning is not a complementary amenity and likewise water costs a lot more leading the majority to shower infrequently.

But what do I know...
Click to expand...

I have been to Italy. In fact, I used to live there. Water costs less in a supermarket, bread and produce cost much less (but you don't go to the supermarket for those, you go to the real market). Meat costs more. We showered just as much as here. My friends/cousins also only pay 500-1500 euros a year for school (med school or not) and don't have to foot a crazy bill for health insurance.

In conclusion, the quality of life is different but I wouldn't say inferior. It just comes down to what you want in life... I am kind of partial to the lower stress, more time to live style that I had back in Italy but I also want the post-secondary education that I would get in America... again, both places are simply different.
Click to expand...
 
Stumpyman said:
... For example, in India they have close to 16,000 applicants for one seat in medical school 😱
Click to expand...

May be more like 30 to 60. Intake is about 30,000. 16,000 applicants per seat will be 480 million applicants?! My guess is about 1 million applicants: 1.2 billion people. Half of then under 20. Total flow of students about 30 million/year. May be about 10 to 20% go to college: that is 3 to 6 million flow into college. May be at most a million try for medical.😀
 
Last edited:
High school to Med School. Terrible idea. Who wants to miss college football games, sorority girls, acting classes, road trips over Spring Break, for a bleak immersion in a med school curriculum at age 17 or 18 that will squeeze all of the fun out of your life. I would decline. If that were the path, I never would have become a doctor.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

cinnaknown
Is getting a Bachelor's Degree from MD Anderson School of Health Professions a good route?
Replies
15
Views
1K
chilly_md
chilly_md
V
Bankruptcy before medical school
Replies
8
Views
1K
Stuaccount
S
A
Do you need to join (competitive) pre-med clubs to get into a top medical school?
Replies
9
Views
2K
eigen
eigen
M
Medical School as a Paraplegic
Replies
7
Views
1K
gyngyn
gyngyn
R
Do some medical schools require anatomy?
Replies
1
Views
522
wysdoc
wysdoc
Top