Why does everyone hate nursing?

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brightness

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I've been on SDN for awhile, tryin got choose between various medicine-related careers. I knew I wanted to workwtih children providing primary care, so I have been thiking about PA/NP. I plan on applying to several PA programs and several nursing programs as well.
What I want to know is, why is there such an anti-nursing attitude? My plan was to graduate with my degree in Preventative Health and Fitness and then apply to a few PA programs, as well as a one year accelerated nursing degree. If I went the NP route, I would be a nurse for a couple of years before attending an NP program. Is there something inherently inferior about NPs? My main reason for being an NP is because they have more rights than PAs and are able to open their own clinic. Whats the deal? Why do nurses get a bad rap on SDN?

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just ask psici...he's anti-nursing... :laugh:

I think you'll find only a few anti nursing sentiments here...overall pretty positive...
 
I don't think anyone hates nursing. I think the tension mounts when areas of nursing overlap with areas of medicine, then a pissing contest ensues.
 
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I've been on SDN for awhile, tryin got choose between various medicine-related careers. I knew I wanted to workwtih children providing primary care, so I have been thiking about PA/NP. I plan on applying to several PA programs and several nursing programs as well.
What I want to know is, why is there such an anti-nursing attitude? My plan was to graduate with my degree in Preventative Health and Fitness and then apply to a few PA programs, as well as a one year accelerated nursing degree. If I went the NP route, I would be a nurse for a couple of years before attending an NP program. Is there something inherently inferior about NPs? My main reason for being an NP is because they have more rights than PAs and are able to open their own clinic. Whats the deal? Why do nurses get a bad rap on SDN?

Get me a pen and a paper and I'll write you a list.... Suffice to say that this is how medicine is... crap flows down the hill. Attendings -> residents/nurses -> interns+students -> Fluffy the dog/Speckles the cat/John your ADHD kid. Stop the cycle, don't piss on someone lower than you power-wise.
 
Is there something inherently inferior about NPs? My main reason for being an NP is because they have more rights than PAs and are able to open their own clinic. Whats the deal? Why do nurses get a bad rap on SDN?

Debates have occurred about NP's have less training than PA's and the educational path being much easier.


I also think that debates can be made with respect to autonomy. My understanding is that PA's often perform more complex medical procedures, they are afforded more latitude able to cross specialties, and don't have to follow algorithms. If you equate the ability to open your own practice without a supervising physician as having more rights, I guess you're right. If you think that opening your own practice as an NP without the mentoring of a physician is dangerous, you agree with much of the medical community.
 
Get me a pen and a paper and I'll write you a list.... Suffice to say that this is how medicine is... crap flows down the hill. Attendings -> residents/nurses -> interns+students -> Fluffy the dog/Speckles the cat/John your ADHD kid. Stop the cycle, don't piss on someone lower than you power-wise.

Actually one of the issues that further compounds the situation is that I was taught last week in nursing school that:


In medical school, the students [mostly men] are trained that their is a hierarchy in health care, with doctors at the top and nurses below them. In nursing school, however, the mostly female students are [properly] taught that all those involved in a patient's care are a team, with no hierarchy; doctors and nurses are equals.

I guess it is my maleness, but I see nothing wrong with a hierarchy based off of level of training and experience. And despite what my nursing professor or the book says...I don't think I'll my patient's doctor will see me as an equal, especially when I'm wiping my patient's ass when they walk in the room.

Yes, the history of nursing is glorious. Yes, it is true that nurses really played a significant part in improving the health of patients from the 1850s to the present. Yes, nursing involves a different skill set that has a significant impact on the health of patients that many physicians will never see.

But no, adding medical skills to the nursing skills does not make a NP a better provider than a physician. No, it is doubtful that the average NP knows as much as the average doctor.

[/rambling]
 
My main reason for being an NP is because they have more rights than PAs and are able to open their own clinic. Whats the deal? Why do nurses get a bad rap on SDN?

it depends on the state you work in. some states are "more pro np" and some are"more pro-pa".
a large # of states allow pa's to own their own clinics and hire a supervising physician to oversee the practice and do chart review. this generally involves spending less than 4 hrs/week on site.
in north carolina the supervision requirement is a 30 min meeting with an md every 6 months to discuss the practice. no chart review.
some states that allow pa's to open clinics do not allow np's to open clinics and vis versa.
pa's can write rxs in every state accept indiana. I do not know offhand how many states allow np's to prescribe.
also keep in mind that pa's can change specialty without going back to school. it is difficult for np's to do this because they are certified in narrowly defined fields( womens health np can't see men, peds np can't see adults, adult np can't see kids, psych np can't do anything but psych, etc). if you go the np route keep in mind that fnp(family nurse practitioner) has the most practice options. good luck whatever you decide.
 
As I understand it, the beef that most (md track) SDNers have w/ nurses is that they aren't mds : ) From the "midlevel practitioner" standpoint, PAs and NPs are sort of competing (don't anyone get worked up about this, it's true that often a PA and an NP could interview for the same job, esp in primary care).

It's gotta be hard to be a resident, listening to a nurse correct you, knowing you're working your a** off and making half what she is : )

I agree w/ all that the above poster had to say about PA vs NP owning practice and PAs being able to switch specialty, sometimes do procedures that nurses wouldn't.

But both PAs and NPs vary widely on their education and experience, and it's hard to compare them as a group because of that. This is also one of the problems w/ both practices -the title can mean more or less than the actual expertise of the practitioner -MD seems to be a more consistent title, and junk like online classes for NP and PA cert doesn't help with that. Because of that, as a patient, I would be uncomfortable going to a practice owned and operated by an NP unsupervised by an MD -it's one thing to see an NP as a part of your health care team, but exclusively? Not for me.
 
As I understand it, the beef that most (md track) SDNers have w/ nurses is that they aren't mds : ) From the "midlevel practitioner" standpoint, PAs and NPs are sort of competing (don't anyone get worked up about this, it's true that often a PA and an NP could interview for the same job, esp in primary care).

It's gotta be hard to be a resident, listening to a nurse correct you, knowing you're working your a** off and making half what she is : ).

As a resident with a background in both nursing and public health, my issue is with the theory behind the NP. BSN courses hammer home the point that "nursing is NOT medicine". Approaches such as Orem's self care deficit theory and the "nursing diagnosis" are pushed heavily. Lots of research has gone into validating nursing as a separate science and lots of effort went into defining it as separate under the law (with nurse practice acts). Wonderful. I agree. Nurses are a very needed and very separate (from medicine) part of healthcare. Then nursing comes along a redefines it's highest level practitioner to include those activities traditionally clearly considered "medicine". Now there is talk of NP residencies and the NP becoming the "third" full medical practitioner (alongside MDs and DOs). Why? Where is the evidence that such an entity is needed? A PA is trained in the medical model. They act under state medical boards (NPs act under nursing boards). I guess that the idea of NPs seems a bit disingenuous to me...

- H
 
Is this about RNs or NP's?

Unquestionably, NPs no longer see themselves as "nurses"...while fundamentally they are.
 
been in nursing 12 years...

2/3 of the ER docs with whom I have worked, practice algorithmic, shotgun medicine...It's a fact...

Even worked w/ a retired surgeon (61 years old) who (I kid you not) looked up 3/4 of what he was doing (an array of textbooks lined up in front of him) (Wanted to switch careers, after 30 years of appys and choles)...He still knows more than the NP/PA

On a good day, many career RNs (with or without advanced schooling) would have a similar successful rate of adequate diagnoses...

We would still miss the zebras, and still not know the why...

For these reasons, I would please like a doc (DO...MD... nobody cares...)

I want those who have zebra bait...Most midlevels don't...

Medicine isn't rocket science...Docs just have the necessary fuel...
 
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there are no online pa programs.

Do ya think that's because they're right there with medical education...which is years behind everyone else, lol?
 
Do ya think that's because they're right there with medical education...which is years behind everyone else, lol?

There's no online SLP programs (to actually train you as an SLP - there are some online doctorates that are considered a joke in the field of SLP) but that doens't mean it's medical education.

Medicine (and nursing) needs to be hands on. Any online degree will end up being theoretical or for continuing ed.
 
been in nursing 12 years...

2/3 of the ER docs with whom I have worked, practice algorithmic, shotgun medicine...It's a fact...

Even worked w/ a retired surgeon (61 years old) who (I kid you not) looked up 3/4 of what he was doing (an array of textbooks lined up in front of him) (Wanted to switch careers, after 30 years of appys and choles)...He still knows more than the NP/PA

On a good day, many career RNs (with or without advanced schooling) would have a similar successful rate of adequate diagnoses...

We would still miss the zebras, and still not know the why...

For these reasons, I would please like a doc (DO...MD... nobody cares...)

I want those who have zebra bait...Most midlevels don't...

Medicine isn't rocket science...Docs just have the necessary fuel...

Zebras are a lot more common than you think.. In africa there are many zebras like Malaria and Thalasemia.....and most are handled without declaring their status as a zebra... they just shoot them and take em to eat. ;)

But seriously... all those rarities are not as rare as they appear.. If disease 1 is 0.1% of the population, and disease 2 is 0.1%, and disease 3 is 0.1% of the population....... disease 150 is 0.1% of the population......then you see that they can pile up. Zebras are more common than anticipated and they vary with different regions in the US yet many are handled quietly and some never go on into the hospital. You don't see docs showing off to nurses every time they see a type 2 PEN.
 
As a resident with a background in both nursing and public health, my issue is with the theory behind the NP. BSN courses hammer home the point that "nursing is NOT medicine". Approaches such as Orem's self care deficit theory and the "nursing diagnosis" are pushed heavily. Lots of research has gone into validating nursing as a separate science and lots of effort went into defining it as separate under the law (with nurse practice acts). Wonderful. I agree. Nurses are a very needed and very separate (from medicine) part of healthcare. Then nursing comes along a redefines it's highest level practitioner to include those activities traditionally clearly considered "medicine". Now there is talk of NP residencies and the NP becoming the "third" full medical practitioner (alongside MDs and DOs). Why? Where is the evidence that such an entity is needed? A PA is trained in the medical model. They act under state medical boards (NPs act under nursing boards). I guess that the idea of NPs seems a bit disingenuous to me...

- H

Nice post. As another that has seen both "sides" I agree 100%.
 
There's no online SLP programs (to actually train you as an SLP - there are some online doctorates that are considered a joke in the field of SLP) but that doens't mean it's medical education.

Medicine (and nursing) needs to be hands on. Any online degree will end up being theoretical or for continuing ed.

I agree the clinical has be be done as it currently is (and most good programs are), but I prefer online classroom to actually sitting in class.
 
Is this about RNs or NP's?

Unquestionably, NPs no longer see themselves as "nurses"...while fundamentally they are.

True. I took all upper level science courses during pre-nursing (it was actually another major and I switched to pre-nursing on a whim), and it seems like I know more about some of the background science to some of the conditions we see in clinical than my NP professor.
He never had advanced micro-bio, never had advanced orgo, genetics, etc, the list goes on.
If I had a cold or needed some anti-motion sickness meds, I would go to him. If I had any major physiologic problems, not a chance in h e l l.
And the thing is, I only know one NP that has a hardcore science background, and she is a friggin genious and I would trust her with most anything anyday, but she's the only one.
 
To correct the person that earlier said that there was no online PA program...there is one. Univ. of North Dakota has an online PA program.
 
To correct the person that earlier said that there was no online PA program...there is one. Univ. of North Dakota has an online PA program.

There are two programs that have substantial online components. Stanford and UND. Both of them require more than five months of on campus work. For a PA program this is as close to online as it gets. Whether or not this survives the next ARC-PA inspection is another story.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
As a resident with a background in both nursing and public health, my issue is with the theory behind the NP. BSN courses hammer home the point that "nursing is NOT medicine". Approaches such as Orem's self care deficit theory and the "nursing diagnosis" are pushed heavily. Lots of research has gone into validating nursing as a separate science and lots of effort went into defining it as separate under the law (with nurse practice acts). Wonderful. I agree. Nurses are a very needed and very separate (from medicine) part of healthcare. Then nursing comes along a redefines it's highest level practitioner to include those activities traditionally clearly considered "medicine". Now there is talk of NP residencies and the NP becoming the "third" full medical practitioner (alongside MDs and DOs). Why? Where is the evidence that such an entity is needed? A PA is trained in the medical model. They act under state medical boards (NPs act under nursing boards). I guess that the idea of NPs seems a bit disingenuous to me...

- H
Beautifully said! This is my frustration as well. Nursing is a separate profession with a separate focus. This was drilled into me ad nauseam, but as soon as the opportunity came up to encroach upon medicine, nursing is all over that. Isn't that exactly what we've tried to get away from--the idea that we're junior doctors? It rings a false note for me.

Plus, the emphasis that nursing schools put on NP makes me want to gag. I turned in all my medical stuff for my BSN completion "clinical" (sidenote: :rolleyes:) and was actually praised for getting my TB skin test done by an NP at a Walgreen's Take Care clinic. Really? Really? That's an action worthy of praise? It was cheap and just around the corner and I didn't have to make an appointment, but for my medical care I see a physician, thanks, but apparently I'd be better off entrusting my health with an NP at a walk-in clinic.
 
Is this about RNs or NP's?

Unquestionably, NPs no longer see themselves as "nurses"...while fundamentally they are.

I don't think anyone has a problem with RNs. They're extremely valuable. I think the problem with "nursing" is more so with the DNP movement? Perhaps also with the online programs, lack of clinical/hands on experience, and lack of true science...
 
Fabulous thread resurrection.


ThreadResurrection.jpg
 
Unquestionably, NPs no longer see themselves as "nurses"...while fundamentally they are.


This is so true! I went in to listen to rounds and the NP told me, "oh, I like it when the nurses come" I really was dumb founded, like uh you are a NURSE practitioner. Lol. Oh well.

I don't agree with the whole DNP thing and all of that. I kind of think it is embarrassing to the entire nursing profession. I don't think you should introduce yourself as Dr. (whatever) to a patient when in fact, you are a nurse!

I also don't like the fact that many people choose to go to NP school right after getting their BSN and they are not required to get actual bedside training. I don't know what it is.

With all this said, I am however, an RN who is taking the necessary steps to attend medical school!
 
Because they say/believe things like this:

"The UW GEPN program is rigorous and very competitive. It's pretty old-fashioned to think that nurses need to be an LPN then a CNA then an RN, etc. In Washington at least, RNs do not do the same thing an LPN does. Same with CNA. There are other ways to get experience working with people.
Also, PAs are trained using the old-school medical model. Not the way more holistic and patient-friendly nursing model. I think most of us on this site agree the nursing model is far superior and personally fulfilling"
 
Because they say/believe things like this:

"The UW GEPN program is rigorous and very competitive. It's pretty old-fashioned to think that nurses need to be an LPN then a CNA then an RN, etc. In Washington at least, RNs do not do the same thing an LPN does. Same with CNA. There are other ways to get experience working with people.
Also, PAs are trained using the old-school medical model. Not the way more holistic and patient-friendly nursing model. I think most of us on this site agree the nursing model is far superior and personally fulfilling"

Hey - I recognize that brilliant statement from a posting today at all nurses.... truly a breakthrough thought there......it was then followed by this:

Posted by stellasaurus
...Also, PAs are trained using the old-school medical model. Not the way more holistic and patient-friendly nursing model. I think most of us on this site agree the nursing model is far superior and personally fulfilling ;-)
 
Because NP's try to expand their scope not by education and training but by propaganda and donating money to lawmakers. This puts the unsuspecting public at huge risks. It's very cowardly of NP's if you ask me.

Advanced practice nurses reveal agenda for independent practice
Two bills filed remove physician supervision, give broad prescriptive authority to APNs

After six years of relative calm, the Coalition for Nurses in Advanced Practice emerged with guns blazing this week seeking a broad expansion of the scope of practice for advanced practice nurses.

In 2001, physicians and APNs agreed to a moratorium on scope of practice battles lasting three legislative sessions. That moratorium has now expired and on Monday, Feb. 9, CNAP stormed the Capitol with more than 400 APNs armed with reams of propaganda purporting the superiority of nurse practitioners in providing the coordinated care, patient education and proper follow-up for the management of chronic diseases. “Research supports NPs out-perform physicians in these areas,” claims one of the CNAP handouts.

Two bills filed this session would give broad prescriptive authority to APNs, virtually stripping all physician supervision of APNs from state law.


House Bill 1107 by Rep. Wayne Christian, R-Center, would give complete independent authority for nurses to practice medicine by allowing the Texas Board of Nursing to grant prescriptive authority for APNs. It would also remove all mention of APNs from the physician delegation statutes in the state Occupations Code.

H.B. 696 by Rep. Rob Orr, R-Burleson, would remove physician prescriptive delegation to APNs. Instead, the bill would institute prescriptive agreements, essentially allowing physicians and APNs to establish their own guidelines for collaboration through unlimited, open-ended contracts with no minimum standard of supervision. For instance, the parties could agree that an annual conference call would sufficiently constitute supervision over all APNs collaborating with a physician.

According to initial analysis, the bill would allow an APN to treat the full range of health problems — including the prescribing of schedule II pharmaceuticals — in a hospital, office or school so long as he or she is not barred from doing so in the prescriptive agreement.

The bill also increases the number of APNs a physician can supervise from three to eight, but if the physician sees fit, he or she may exceed even that limit. In essence, the bill allows a physician to enter into prescriptive agreements with an unlimited number of APNs.

“The fact is non-physician practitioners don’t have the training, the education or the skills to practice medicine, certainly not with the same level of quality as physicians,” said Tom Banning, TAFP CEO. “The nurses are pushing a very aggressive expansion of authority and that threatens patient safety. Lowering the standards of Texas medicine is not the right solution to address problems of access to care for Texans. TAFP needs your active participation during this legislative session to make sure we protect the quality of care in this state.”​
 
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