why does PT school require a bachelor's degree?

[lionessinbloom]

Is there any good reason as to why fulfillment of the required prerequisite classes and volunteer hours are not enough to get into a PT program? Why waste time with bull**** classes that will give you a very expensive piece of paper that won't matter after PT school? If we know we want to get into PT and have a good GPA in the relevant course material, why are we expected to have a degree? It just doesn't make any sense to me...

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[Azimuthal]

What a classy post. It's a prerequisite to allow young students to hopefully mature before making a career decision. Don't like it? Go international or do something else.

 

[somo47]

:troll:

This cannot be a serious post, but I think @Azimuthal answered the question well should they honestly not know why a bachelor's is required before beginning a doctoral program.

 

[Phyline]

There are 6-year long joint BS-DPT programs.

 

[bluesareblack]

I know fellow students with a wide range of Bachelor's degrees from Kinesiology to Physiology and Biology who can barely handle the first semester of anatomy in PT school...and we've already basically had it as a pre-req. I know Kinesiology majors who are struggling in the KIN courses. I agree that some pre-reqs seem a bit ridiculous for PT, OT, MD, etc. schools, but to say a bachelors degree is a waste of time is being naive.

It's a prerequisite to allow young students to hopefully mature before making a career decision

This. Look at the amount of people who simply try undergrad and fail out. Why would a university take that risk at the graduate level?

 

[southernswimmer]

Also, if all you get out of undergrad is an "expensive piece of paper," you're doing it wrong

 

[SnowyDPT]

You're receiving a DOCTORATE degree as well. Not many people walk around the streets with a doctorate degree, relative to the population.

 

[Macklelaur]

Well.... that post escalated quickly. If this is the profession you want, these are the steps you take.

 

[AlanWattsBlues]

Is there any good reason as to why fulfillment of the required prerequisite classes and volunteer hours are not enough to get into a PT program? Why waste time with bull**** classes that will give you a very expensive piece of paper that won't matter after PT school? If we know we want to get into PT and have a good GPA in the relevant course material, why are we expected to have a degree? It just doesn't make any sense to me...

But then think about it, once you get to PT school, absolutely every assignment will be truly meaningful to your future as a healthcare professional. There will be no required BS classes...no projects that feel like mindless busy work. You won't spend whole semesters studying areas of practice that you have no intention of working in.

And then once you get out in the clinic, you'll just be able to spend all your time HELPING PEOPLE. And you won't have to deal with onerous paperwork, or insurance companies, or symptom magnification for secondary gain.

Once you get to this utopia, you'll be able to rest easy knowing that those upper division courses were really worth it.

----------------------------------------------------

On a more sincere note: look at what's happening with PTA programs. They don't require a college degree, but from what I've heard you basically need a bachelor's to get an associate's because the application process is so competitive. Even if there wasn't a formal requirement for an undergraduate degree for DPT programs, you'd probably still need one just to get to the interview stage of applications.

 

[jesspt]

Is there any good reason as to why fulfillment of the required prerequisite classes and volunteer hours are not enough to get into a PT program? Why waste time with bull**** classes that will give you a very expensive piece of paper that won't matter after PT school? If we know we want to get into PT and have a good GPA in the relevant course material, why are we expected to have a degree? It just doesn't make any sense to me...

I think that this is a valid question.

What a classy post. It's a prerequisite to allow young students to hopefully mature before making a career decision. Don't like it? Go international or do something else.

In the history of this forum, this isn't even in the vicinity of least classy posts.

Also, if all you get out of undergrad is an "expensive piece of paper," you're doing it wrong

I have an undergrad degree in biology with an emphasis in botany. It is an expensive piece of paper.

Nothing in my job as a PT in outpatient orthopaedics requires me to use anything I learned in undergrad with the exception of some of the principles of physics (which were covered in PT school and then expanded upon) and some physiology (which was also covered and expanded upon in PT school).

The debt that new graduate PTs are burdeneed with is getting out of control. Couldn't some school reduce this by reducing the number of undergraduate years onen eeds to complete prior to starting PT?

 

[Azimuthal]

jesspt,

They already have official/non-official 3+2/3+3/4+2 programs. As for your biology degree, it's only worthless by choice - you may or may not have known what you wanted. An undergraduate in underwater basket weaving would have sufficed for PT school, while an undergraduate in ATC, Biomechanics, ExPhys, etc. may have been more beneficial. There are biology majors out there that have capitalized on the learning in a different direction. There is also the question of rigor preparation. That saves the school and student in both time and in money. Also, perhaps similar to your own experience, many young students obtain a degree that they have no plans on using and if the barrier was reduced in getting the student to stop and think about what they actually want to do, where would we be? I would surmise that there would be more PT's who dislike their jobs and a few more office clerks with expensive wall decor.

Edited for my ESL.

 

[DesertPT]

But then think about it, once you get to PT school, absolutely every assignment will be truly meaningful to your future as a healthcare professional. There will be no required BS classes...no projects that feel like mindless busy work. You won't spend whole semesters studying areas of practice that you have no intention of working in.

And then once you get out in the clinic, you'll just be able to spend all your time HELPING PEOPLE. And you won't have to deal with onerous paperwork, or insurance companies, or symptom magnification for secondary gain.

Once you get to this utopia, you'll be able to rest easy knowing that those upper division courses were really worth it.

 

[DesertPT]

I have an undergrad degree in biology with an emphasis in botany. It is an expensive piece of paper.

Sucks for you. I have an undergrad degree in biology and personally value it highly.

 

[jquitt]

I think that this is a valid question.



In the history of this forum, this isn't even in the vicinity of least classy posts.



I have an undergrad degree in biology with an emphasis in botany. It is an expensive piece of paper.

Nothing in my job as a PT in outpatient orthopaedics requires me to use anything I learned in undergrad with the exception of some of the principles of physics (which were covered in PT school and then expanded upon) and some physiology (which was also covered and expanded upon in PT school).

The debt that new graduate PTs are burdeneed with is getting out of control. Couldn't some school reduce this by reducing the number of undergraduate years onen eeds to complete prior to starting PT?

Bio undergraduate here too. Isn't it the case that in some countries you can go straight to the professional route without undergraduate? I thought that was the case in the UK but I could be wrong.

 

[southernswimmer]

Bio undergraduate here too. Isn't it the case that in some countries you can go straight to the professional route without undergraduate? I thought that was the case in the UK but I could be wrong.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but medicine is a 6 year bachelors degree in the UK, compared to the usual 3 years. So, twice as long. There are more barriers to tertiary education in European countries vs the US, though, so it's hard to make a comparison.

 

[jquitt]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but medicine is a 6 year bachelors degree in the UK, compared to the usual 3 years. So, twice as long. There are more barriers to tertiary education in European countries vs the US, though, so it's hard to make a comparison.

Ah. I see. The barriers you mention aren't cost though right? I thought education was much more accessible in general in that respect over there? A colleague of mine at my former job from Scotland said your first degree was pretty much free? Just curious.

 

[southernswimmer]

Ah. I see. The barriers you mention aren't cost though right? I thought education was much more accessible in general in that respect over there? A colleague of mine at my former job from Scotland said your first degree was pretty much free? Just curious.

Definitely not cost. It's probably better to say that it's hard to make a comparison since their education systems from primary to tertiary school are so drastically different from the US's.

 

[jquitt]

Definitely not cost. It's probably better to say that it's hard to make a comparison since their education systems from primary to tertiary school are so drastically different from the US's.

Fair enough.

 

[NewDPT31]

I think that this is a valid question.



In the history of this forum, this isn't even in the vicinity of least classy posts.



I have an undergrad degree in biology with an emphasis in botany. It is an expensive piece of paper.

Nothing in my job as a PT in outpatient orthopaedics requires me to use anything I learned in undergrad with the exception of some of the principles of physics (which were covered in PT school and then expanded upon) and some physiology (which was also covered and expanded upon in PT school).

The debt that new graduate PTs are burdeneed with is getting out of control. Couldn't some school reduce this by reducing the number of undergraduate years onen eeds to complete prior to starting PT?

Cosign Cosign Cosign.
All I remember from organic chem is that orange juice takes the smell of fish off your hands and don't take tylenol with alcohol or with a hangover
All I remember from physics 1 and 2 is ....nothing really besides stuff I learned in physics in high school.
Everything that was needed to understand it was taught during kinesiology 1/2, and i mean i guess you had to have a grasp of 8th grade geometry.
I wish they reduce undergrad to say, 1 year for some really core classes, and then start PT. Undergrad, for the most part, was a waste of $80k. I met lifelong friends and drank 3x/week, but it was expensive. (Someone is going to jump on the high horse and decry that "well, if you didn't drink 3x/week you might have gotten more out of it". Nope. I drank because I could because classes were, for the most part, not any harder than HS or easier. The only really challenging classes were the core sciences and like neuroanatomy.)

 

[jesspt]

Cosign Cosign Cosign.
All I remember from organic chem is that orange juice takes the smell of fish off your hands and don't take tylenol with alcohol or with a hangover
All I remember from physics 1 and 2 is ....nothing really besides stuff I learned in physics in high school.
Everything that was needed to understand it was taught during kinesiology 1/2, and i mean i guess you had to have a grasp of 8th grade geometry.
I wish they reduce undergrad to say, 1 year for some really core classes, and then start PT. Undergrad, for the most part, was a waste of $80k. I met lifelong friends and drank 3x/week, but it was expensive. (Someone is going to jump on the high horse and decry that "well, if you didn't drink 3x/week you might have gotten more out of it". Nope. I drank because I could because classes were, for the most part, not any harder than HS or easier. The only really challenging classes were the core sciences and like neuroanatomy.)

We would have gotten along in undergrad.

 

[engmedpt]

Cosign Cosign Cosign.
All I remember from organic chem is that orange juice takes the smell of fish off your hands and don't take tylenol with alcohol or with a hangover
All I remember from physics 1 and 2 is ....nothing really besides stuff I learned in physics in high school.
Everything that was needed to understand it was taught during kinesiology 1/2, and i mean i guess you had to have a grasp of 8th grade geometry.
I wish they reduce undergrad to say, 1 year for some really core classes, and then start PT. Undergrad, for the most part, was a waste of $80k. I met lifelong friends and drank 3x/week, but it was expensive. (Someone is going to jump on the high horse and decry that "well, if you didn't drink 3x/week you might have gotten more out of it". Nope. I drank because I could because classes were, for the most part, not any harder than HS or easier. The only really challenging classes were the core sciences and like neuroanatomy.)

^So your DPT was actually 170k and not 250k then?

All I remember from organic chem is that orange juice takes the smell of fish off your hands and don't take tylenol with alcohol or with a hangover

But you learned valuable 3D relationships that give you life skills for the rest of your life!!!!

 

[NewDPT31]

^So your DPT was actually 170k and not 250k then?

Yeah undergrad was 80k and Grad school was about 160-170. When I finally started paying after the 6 months forbearance it ended up being like $249k

 

[engmedpt]

Why waste time with bull**** classes that will give you a very expensive piece of paper that won't matter after PT school?

People with PhDs who can't leave academia need something to do for job security while they keep applying for research grants and produce results.

Exposure to the coursework also completely changes people's career paths. If education wasn't in the position it's currently in, then I wouldn't mind it as much at all.

^By that I mean the fact that we have too many degrees that don't produce skillsets to enter competitive workforces and obviously, cost. Doesn't mean your degree can't produce a skillset. Just avoid your college career advisors (a lot are just awful from my experience...kind of a hit or miss) and work from the market and what you want to do backwards making sure your undergrad degree translates to things you want to do and that have a job or skillset.

 

[pegasuscvc]

Well, answering the question in seriousness, the reason a bachelor's degree is required isn't necessarily for the education. I honestly think it's to weed out those who are "wishy-washy" in wanting to do PT. Educating PTs is too expensive to be wasting time with people who are thinking that maybe they'll try this and see if it works out. It's also to make sure students have been subjected to the educational rigor a DPT program requires. In the current situation, 99.9% of people will NOT drop out of their PT program once they're in it, because they've invested 4 years of undergrad, serious thought, and time/money to apply and get accepted. When you only have 25-35 students per class, those are the people you want.

Imagine if someone did spend one year knocking out those prereqs and then got into a DPT program. For one thing, already fiercely competitive applicant pools would explode. For another thing, what would the program do to them? Those students would be 18 or 19-year-olds that have only ever taken 200 level classes (You usually don't need any higher than that for prereqs). For one thing, at that age, half of them are still very unsure what career they want to pursue. For another thing, they would make the jump to 600 level classes and suddenly discover that this stuff is EXTREMELY difficult. It's just my opinion, but I think that in that situation, many of those students would cut their losses and drop out to take another career rather than push themselves, which would in turn have a negative effect on the programs they attended. That's really what they're hoping you'll learn from undergrad BEFORE getting to MPT or DPT: not necessarily a particular subject, but how to push yourself and stretch to your absolute limit and beyond, as well as demonstrating that you can keep your eye on a long-term goal and keep working toward it. That's what you'll have to do to make it in a DPT program. Requiring a bachelor's ensures that those who for sure won't are already disqualified. Admittedly, it's not a perfect method, but it's worked fairly well so far.

 

[jesspt]

Well, answering the question in seriousness, the reason a bachelor's degree is required isn't necessarily for the education. I honestly think it's to weed out those who are "wishy-washy" in wanting to do PT. Educating PTs is too expensive to be wasting time with people who are thinking that maybe they'll try this and see if it works out. It's also to make sure students have been subjected to the educational rigor a DPT program requires. In the current situation, 99.9% of people will NOT drop out of their PT program once they're in it, because they've invested 4 years of undergrad, serious thought, and time/money to apply and get accepted. When you only have 25-35 students per class, those are the people you want.

Imagine if someone did spend one year knocking out those prereqs and then got into a DPT program. For one thing, already fiercely competitive applicant pools would explode. For another thing, what would the program do to them? Those students would be 18 or 19-year-olds that have only ever taken 200 level classes (You usually don't need any higher than that for prereqs). For one thing, at that age, half of them are still very unsure what career they want to pursue. For another thing, they would make the jump to 600 level classes and suddenly discover that this stuff is EXTREMELY difficult. It's just my opinion, but I think that in that situation, many of those students would cut their losses and drop out to take another career rather than push themselves, which would in turn have a negative effect on the programs they attended. That's really what they're hoping you'll learn from undergrad BEFORE getting to MPT or DPT: not necessarily a particular subject, but how to push yourself and stretch to your absolute limit and beyond, as well as demonstrating that you can keep your eye on a long-term goal and keep working toward it. That's what you'll have to do to make it in a DPT program. Requiring a bachelor's ensures that those who for sure won't are already disqualified. Admittedly, it's not a perfect method, but it's worked fairly well so far.

"Imagine if someone did spend one year knocking out those prereqs and then got into a DPT program. For one thing, already fiercely competitive applicant pools would explode."

• How does a more competitive applicant pool hurt the school? The profression?

"For one thing, at that age, half of them are still very unsure what career they want to pursue. For another thing, they would make the jump to 600 level classes and suddenly discover that this stuff is EXTREMELY difficult. It's just my opinion, but I think that in that situation, many of those students would cut their losses and drop out to take another career rather than push themselves, which would in turn have a negative effect on the programs they attended."

• Perhaps. But, couldn't PT school accomplish this another way, without forcing the applicant to incur more undergraduate debt? If the applicant has taken 100 and 200 level pre-requisites, they could take 400 level Bio or Chem classes which should expose them to more difficult course work. What about the typical pre-requisites plus one or two 400 level courses?

And to DesertPT, from a much earlier post: "Sucks for you. I have an undergrad degree in biology and personally value it highly."

• I'm happy for you. Glad you value it. That doesn't prove it's worth.

 

[ptisfun2]

We would have gotten along in undergrad.

I would have gotten along with both of you. But I was in a BS program for PT, so I think the move to a graduate degree and requiring a BS was for, in part, maturity. I was a 21 year old responsible for my own patient load as a college graduate and PT license holder. I look back and think how frightening that was!!!

I think undergrad may let students figure out what they really want to do, but many people who graduate from PT and start working as a PT do not stay in the field forever. It would be foolish to think that all do. From our graduates, I see a bunch leave after 2 years of practice, then 5 years. After 5 years, those still practicing tend to stay in for a while, but lots of people leave the profession. It is merely a graduate degree.

But also, graduate school requires an undergraduate degree in US almost without exception. Sometimes you have to play by the rules.

 

[AlanWattsBlues]

From our graduates, I see a bunch leave after 2 years of practice, then 5 years. After 5 years, those still practicing tend to stay in for a while, but lots of people leave the profession.

If you would be willing to unpack this in some more detail in a stand alone post, I would be fascinated to read it.

 

[ptisfun2]

If you would be willing to unpack this in some more detail in a stand alone post, I would be fascinated to read it.

I do not think my university collects data on this so just based on my observations and anecdotes from our graduates. But mirrors people I have worked with. PT is no different than other jobs....people leave the profession. May still say licensed, but I have known PTs to go work for an insurance company, research organization, EHR company, bank, investment company. I left for a while, and then came back to become a faculty member. And then some of my students have gotten MBAs and gone the business route, one went to law school but not too sure what they are up to, 2 went for a PhD and stayed in the field they got their degree in. I don't imagine PT is any different than any other profession that experiences attrition.
I don't know....aren't we all supposed to have 3 careers/professions at least? Isn't that the average? Or maybe more?

 

[AlanWattsBlues]

Thanks for the reply. I've heard similar things before. And I think I've seen some numbers that tell a similar story. But I just thought that it might be changing given the increasing competitiveness and cost of schooling.

I know many people who went to law school because they were just buying time after undergrad. And people who got an MBA because they hated their job or got laid off and couldn't find work.

But grad school for PT seems different, somehow. Maybe that's just my own bias. We all had to observe PTs in practice to get an idea of what we were in for. I imagine that few people are done paying off their student loans after two years. The idea that someone would decide "hey, this just isn't for me, I'm gonna get a job doing something else" is something that I would like to better understand. Though having had some rough days while out on clinicals, maybe I understand it well enough...

 

[engmedpt]

I know many people who went to law school because they were just buying time after undergrad. And people who got an MBA because they hated their job or got laid off and couldn't find work.

Which is why these degrees are increasingly losing economic value. Oh you had a 2.5 undergrad and don't know what to do? Just go to law school!

 

[engmedpt]

aren't we all supposed to have 3 careers/professions at least?

I think that because of the cost of schooling and the post bachelors plus competition, career decisions may be looked at as a much more longterm decision. At least it is for me.....the nontrads I know also put a massive amount of time and consideration into their decision. This is clearly ridiculously biased conjecture though.

I was a 21 year old responsible for my own patient load as a college graduate and PT license holder. I look back and think how frightening that was!!!

In terms of responsibility, skill, attitude, things that could be missed, etc. why was this frightening to you?

No opinions or anything. Just curious.

 

[engmedpt]

.

 

[engmedpt]

I'm happy for you. Glad you value it. That doesn't prove it's worth.

There's two types of worth. Your own personal satisfaction/skillset gained from your undergrad education and it's economic worth. My undergrad has at least 5 different entry level job paths starting at 2 to 3x the minimum wage (I monitored the markets for fun and teaching myself how employers tack on job postings). Obviously, due to competition, entry may be barred due to people who had volunteer experience or internships (which seems to be the annoying trend for getting a job in anything these days for all my friends). I learned skillsets and had knowledge bases that were enjoyable and had tangential components that could be applied to the entry level jobs. So my undergrad was 'worth' it in both senses I mentioned. You can't just say that economic value and how much people will fork over money is the only way to quantify 'worth.'

At the same time, if someone gets a sociology degree thinking their investment will produce a monetary reward and that is their only goal and they're working at starbucks postgrad.....then ya it's not 'worth' anything for them. If someone's life goal is to be the most social science-educated barista on the planet and gets a quadruple philosophy, anthropology, sociology, and women's studies degree then that 'worth' is still there as long as they didn't go into unmanageable/never gonna pay it back debt.

Unfortunately, our current credentialing system doesn't remotely conform to outside market salaries postgrad so economic worth is hard to justify sometimes and students have to watch their backs in decision-making. Reference my post 3 up on people going to law school and making a poor/unrationalized decision. I know many doing that.

Point is....don't only judge worth on your own value or monetary metric of success. I also learned a ton of nonsense for exams and checkmarks on my transcript that make me want to slam my head against wall, but there were other things I learned that I value.

 

[truthseeker]

I think that not only is the bachelors degree important for generally rounding out someones overall knowledge of the world which allows the therapist to communicate more effectively than a less educated person, but also adds a little age, life experience, and wisdom to the applicant.
When explaining a diagnosis to a patient who you have little in common with, it is helpful to be able to know a little about life in general to speak "their language" and give them terms that they understand. e.g. Having read and remembering a little about world war II is helpful when speaking to an 88 year old veteran of that war.

 

[jesspt]

There's two types of worth. Your own personal satisfaction/skillset gained from your undergrad education and it's economic worth. My undergrad has at least 5 different entry level job paths starting at 2 to 3x the minimum wage (I monitored the markets for fun and teaching myself how employers tack on job postings). Obviously, due to competition, entry may be barred due to people who had volunteer experience or internships (which seems to be the annoying trend for getting a job in anything these days for all my friends). I learned skillsets and had knowledge bases that were enjoyable and had tangential components that could be applied to the entry level jobs. So my undergrad was 'worth' it in both senses I mentioned. You can't just say that economic value and how much people will fork over money is the only way to quantify 'worth.'

At the same time, if someone gets a sociology degree thinking their investment will produce a monetary reward and that is their only goal and they're working at starbucks postgrad.....then ya it's not 'worth' anything for them. If someone's life goal is to be the most social science-educated barista on the planet and gets a quadruple philosophy, anthropology, sociology, and women's studies degree then that 'worth' is still there as long as they didn't go into unmanageable/never gonna pay it back debt.

Unfortunately, our current credentialing system doesn't remotely conform to outside market salaries postgrad so economic worth is hard to justify sometimes and students have to watch their backs in decision-making. Reference my post 3 up on people going to law school and making a poor/unrationalized decision. I know many doing that.

Point is....don't only judge worth on your own value or monetary metric of success. I also learned a ton of nonsense for exams and checkmarks on my transcript that make me want to slam my head against wall, but there were other things I learned that I value.

I'm not sure what you're referencing when you say "credentialing system."

In the context of this thread, I think value, or worth, from a monetary return on investment perspective is valid. If some posters want to wax poetic about how much they vlaue their undergrad degree, then more power to them. I think that the longer they practice, they'll realize that the bio/chem/anthrolopolgy degree that they earned plays virutally no role in how they interact with/treat patients. It was a hoop that they needed to jump through in order to achieve their ultimate goal - a PT degree.

I think that not only is the bachelors degree important for generally rounding out someones overall knowledge of the world which allows the therapist to communicate more effectively than a less educated person, but also adds a little age, life experience, and wisdom to the applicant.
When explaining a diagnosis to a patient who you have little in common with, it is helpful to be able to know a little about life in general to speak "their language" and give them terms that they understand. e.g. Having read and remembering a little about world war II is helpful when speaking to an 88 year old veteran of that war.

I guess I would think that most of us learn best re: knowledge of the world by living in it, and undergrad isn't exactly representative of "real life." Your example abou WW II doesn't follow. I didn't have to read a single thing about WW II while obtaining my degree, and I think that it is likley that most of the readers of this thread didn't either. However, I can relate to that patient because my gradfather served in the Navy during that war, leaving behind his wife and 4 kids in rural South Dakota while he toiled in the engine room of a boat on the other side of the world. And, being a father of three myself, I can at least partially "know" what a terrifying sacrifice that must have been.

My point here is that it is possible that people who have obtained an undergrad degree may be more well-rounded and have more life experience than someone who hasn't, but it isn't necessarily the degree that causes that, it's the fact that they're out there living life, interacting with people, developing the social skillset that may help them relate to their patients. But it seems to me that most of that ability to relate to patients in pain, or those suffering from neurological movement impairements, is "on the job training." Couldn't we remove some of the stuff that costs future PTs money and doesn't contribute to their didactic knowledge relative to PT practice, and get them in front of patients a bit sooner and in less debt?

 

[engmedpt]

I'm not sure what you're referencing when you say "credentialing system."

Universities are a credentialing system. You get a degree. You apply for a job. They ask for the transcript with checkmarks on it to show you're competent for the job posting they put up. You stick out from other people. Bam. your credential got you the job to be in the industry.

Google and other people just started credentialing systems for tech and apprenticeship programs for companies as a response to education costs and where markets are going.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

For those who don't value their undergrad degree or feel it is applicable or impactful: it's your fault and your feelings do not prove lack of undergrad degree value. A lack of evidence of value is not evidence of a lack of value. Just because some didn't plan well and got a less relevant degree (and then claim undergrad degree doesn't matter) doesn't prove anything. Increased cost of schooling due to undergrad doesn't prove lack of its value either. Value is not only monetary, so get off the american capitalist bandwagon and be a little more enlightened and diverse in thought. And arguing that you don't know or sense any direct application of your undergrad studies to the practice of physical therapy doesn't make sense. How do you know when you're applying knowledge or concepts you've learned along the way from here or there. Everything in life one experiences impacts them whether they realize it or not. The brain doesn't compartmentalize undergrad here and grad school there.

To me a undergraduate school degree is useful as a prerequisite because it allows more well rounded education (and maybe some of those "stereotypical" PT's choose a different career path in time because of this), it allows one to mature and get more life experience (than they would have going to PT school 1 yr out of HS), gives more credibility to a profession (although much to overcome in physical therapy given history of entry level training), gives one the opportunity to expose oneself to relevant material, etc. There's a difference between getting straight A's on prereqs for a year and getting an overall 3.5 over 4 years. Some H.S. students got grades that do not reflect their academic capabilities, knowledge or work ethic (i.e. Either high or low GPA).

I enjoyed my undergrad experience and got a top notch education. Better investment than 99% of anything else you could buy.

 

[ptisfun2]

I think that because of the cost of schooling and the post bachelors plus competition, career decisions may be looked at as a much more longterm decision. At least it is for me.....the nontrads I know also put a massive amount of time and consideration into their decision. This is clearly ridiculously biased conjecture though.



In terms of responsibility, skill, attitude, things that could be missed, etc. why was this frightening to you?

No opinions or anything. Just curious.

As someone who has been in 4 different professions and circled back to PT, I get it somewhat. But not really. PT is not always a lifelong career. Graduate school costs money (except PhD)... this is no different for PT compared to others really, although starting salaries are unfortunate now (full disclosure I am still paying student loans 13 years after graduating with a graduate public health degree, but my loan rate is much lower than what is available now...less than my 2.5% mortgage), and competition for lots of graduate programs, PT included but not alone, is pretty intense.

I often say to students your hardest day in school is easier than your easiest day as a PT. Why? Because of responsibility. A PT license is an honor to have, but with it is a lot of responsibility. PT psychomotor skills are not difficult to understand and apply, but the clinical decision making? That is the hard part, and how you respect patients and your license and the profession! So I guess it comes back to maturity for me as a 21 year old PT. My first job was in a hospital, and I realized that patients I was working with could die, and that was a lot of weight for me in my younger days!

 

[ptisfun2]

For those who don't value their undergrad degree or feel it is applicable or impactful: it's your fault and your feelings do not prove lack of undergrad degree value. A lack of evidence of value is not evidence of a lack of value. Just because some didn't plan well and got a less relevant degree (and then claim undergrad degree doesn't matter) doesn't prove anything. Increased cost of schooling due to undergrad doesn't prove lack of its value either. Value is not only monetary, so get off the american capitalist bandwagon and be a little more enlightened and diverse in thought. And arguing that you don't know or sense any direct application of your undergrad studies to the practice of physical therapy doesn't make sense. How do you know when you're applying knowledge or concepts you've learned along the way from here or there. Everything in life one experiences impacts them whether they realize it or not. The brain doesn't compartmentalize undergrad here and grad school there.

To me a undergraduate school degree is useful as a prerequisite because it allows more well rounded education (and maybe some of those "stereotypical" PT's choose a different career path in time because of this), it allows one to mature and get more life experience (than they would have going to PT school 1 yr out of HS), gives more credibility to a profession (although much to overcome in physical therapy given history of entry level training), gives one the opportunity to expose oneself to relevant material, etc. There's a difference between getting straight A's on prereqs for a year and getting an overall 3.5 over 4 years. Some H.S. students got grades that do not reflect their academic capabilities, knowledge or work ethic (i.e. Either high or low GPA).

I enjoyed my undergrad experience and got a top notch education. Better investment than 99% of anything else you could buy.

I agree. I often say, "I will never complain about spending money on education or travel." Those things are priceless for me, but everyone values things differently. Assessing things purely from a financial perspective, I get the point about undergrad maybe (and PT school even more so). But finances have never been terribly important to me since I always had a roof over my head and money for beer!

 

[truthseeker]

I'm not sure what you're referencing when you say "credentialing system."

In the context of this thread, I think value, or worth, from a monetary return on investment perspective is valid. If some posters want to wax poetic about how much they vlaue their undergrad degree, then more power to them. I think that the longer they practice, they'll realize that the bio/chem/anthrolopolgy degree that they earned plays virutally no role in how they interact with/treat patients. It was a hoop that they needed to jump through in order to achieve their ultimate goal - a PT degree.



I guess I would think that most of us learn best re: knowledge of the world by living in it, and undergrad isn't exactly representative of "real life." Your example abou WW II doesn't follow. I didn't have to read a single thing about WW II while obtaining my degree, and I think that it is likley that most of the readers of this thread didn't either. However, I can relate to that patient because my gradfather served in the Navy during that war, leaving behind his wife and 4 kids in rural South Dakota while he toiled in the engine room of a boat on the other side of the world. And, being a father of three myself, I can at least partially "know" what a terrifying sacrifice that must have been.

My point here is that it is possible that people who have obtained an undergrad degree may be more well-rounded and have more life experience than someone who hasn't, but it isn't necessarily the degree that causes that, it's the fact that they're out there living life, interacting with people, developing the social skillset that may help them relate to their patients. But it seems to me that most of that ability to relate to patients in pain, or those suffering from neurological movement impairements, is "on the job training." Couldn't we remove some of the stuff that costs future PTs money and doesn't contribute to their didactic knowledge relative to PT practice, and get them in front of patients a bit sooner and in less debt?

I guess I just disagree. You are sounding like my daughter who says " I will never use geometry, why do I have to know this?" In undergrad I had to take humanities classes, classes on literature, writing classes, public speaking class, statistics, history classes and those things allow me to have a conversation with just about any patient and have some idea of how to speak with them. Its possible that I might have read or known about some of those things without completing an undergrad degree but it is unlikely.

 

[jesspt]

For those who don't value their undergrad degree or feel it is applicable or impactful: it's your fault and your feelings do not prove lack of undergrad degree value. Increased cost of schooling due to undergrad doesn't prove lack of its value either. Value is not only monetary, so get off the american capitalist bandwagon and be a little more enlightened and diverse in thought. And arguing that you don't know or sense any direct application of your undergrad studies to the practice of physical therapy doesn't make sense. How do you know when you're applying knowledge or concepts you've learned along the way from here or there. Everything in life one experiences impacts them whether they realize it or not. The brain doesn't compartmentalize undergrad here and grad school there.

To me a undergraduate school degree is useful as a prerequisite because it allows more well rounded education (and maybe some of those "stereotypical" PT's choose a different career path in time because of this), it allows one to mature and get more life experience (than they would have going to PT school 1 yr out of HS), gives more credibility to a profession (although much to overcome in physical therapy given history of entry level training), gives one the opportunity to expose oneself to relevant material, etc. There's a difference between getting straight A's on prereqs for a year and getting an overall 3.5 over 4 years. Some H.S. students got grades that do not reflect their academic capabilities, knowledge or work ethic (i.e. Either high or low GPA).

I enjoyed my undergrad experience and got a top notch education. Better investment than 99% of anything else you could buy.

"A lack of evidence of value is not evidence of a lack of value. Just because some didn't plan well and got a less relevant degree (and then claim undergrad degree doesn't matter) doesn't prove anything."

• Of course it doesn't prove anything - we're not talking about a randomized, double-blinded, controlled trial here.

"Value is not only monetary, so get off the american capitalist bandwagon and be a little more enlightened and diverse in thought."

• Why? By far and away the most commonly posted topics on here revolve around PT school cost and mounting debt necessary to aqcuire a PT degree.

"To me a undergraduate school degree is useful as a prerequisite because it... gives more credibility to a profession (although much to overcome in physical therapy given history of entry level training)..."

• History of entry-level training isn't the reason our profession has a credibility issue. It's the relative lack of large-scale, controlled trials that support what we do, along with the attraction a significant portion of our colleagues have towards vodoo and pseudo-science.

"I enjoyed my undergrad experience and got a top notch education."

• Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed undergrad. A lot. And my institution seemed to prepare me well for graduate school course-work. I just don't think it was necessary for me to take Golf, Plant Physiology, Persuasive Writing, insert other non-pre-requisite class here..., in order for me to grasp PT school coursework, or to relate to my patients.

I think the bottom line is this - The debt that many students are incurring is a problem, and I think it may take some outside-the-box thinking to look at ways to rectify it. I don't think we can count on graduate schools to reduce their tuition, but if they required fewer courses prior to entering PT school, it might reduce the debt load, and I don't think it would negatively impact patient outcomes, or our standing (or lack thereof) within the Allied Health Professions community.

 

[jesspt]

I guess I just disagree. You are sounding like my daughter who says " I will never use geometry, why do I have to know this?" In undergrad I had to take humanities classes, classes on literature, writing classes, public speaking class, statistics, history classes and those things allow me to have a conversation with just about any patient and have some idea of how to speak with them. Its possible that I might have read or known about some of those things without completing an undergrad degree but it is unlikely.

Truth -

We can agree to disagree - I have always respected your contributions here.

The difference between your daughter and me is that she is using foresight, and I'm using hindsight. She thinks she might not need geometry, but I know that I needed it to understand physics, biomechanics, etc. It is also my opinion that I didn't need most of my undergrad coursework to teach me how to relate to patients. I learned the vast majority of that by actaully treating patients.

 

[truthseeker]

I agree with JessPT's cost of school point. I have a former athlete who is in a PhD program in Chemistry. She says that although tuition is continuing to go up, the grad students that do the research and teach the classes do NOT get raises. The money goes to building a new building, or paying a researcher tons of money to oversee the worker bees. Since everyone seems to qualify for as much student debt as they want, there is no downward pressure on tuition. So, tuition continues to rise. THEN at the end, the other foot drops 6 months after graduation.
Last fall at my son's FAFSA meeting, the speaker said:
"Live like a college student when you are in college so you don't have to after college." Brilliant.

 

[NewDPT31]

"Live like a college student when you are in college so you don't have to after college." Brilliant.

I disagree. Live within your means, yes...but...a few thousand extra dollars isn't a big deal in the scheme of things. I mean, a lot of us are taking on 150k, 200k, even 250k.

I hear a lot of my older colleagues and then aunt/uncles etc, who just can't understand why us idiot millennials can't just work their way through school. Why, when they went to college you know what they did? They tightened their bootstraps, grabbed their lunch pale, worked as a lifeguard or some other menial job during the summer and that paid for their tuition. Then they ate ramen and canned beans!

It costs me about $20/month extra for the extra loans I took out not to live in a box without internet/tv, or go out with friends occasionally. Most of us are paying massive monthly amounts, and still have to live reasonably after college whether we lived "like college students" in college.

 

[NewDPT31]

For those who don't value their undergrad degree or feel it is applicable or impactful: it's your fault and your feelings do not prove lack of undergrad degree value. A lack of evidence of value is not evidence of a lack of value. Just because some didn't plan well and got a less relevant degree (and then claim undergrad degree doesn't matter) doesn't prove anything. Increased cost of schooling due to undergrad doesn't prove lack of its value either. Value is not only monetary, so get off the american capitalist bandwagon and be a little more enlightened and diverse in thought. And arguing that you don't know or sense any direct application of your undergrad studies to the practice of physical therapy doesn't make sense. How do you know when you're applying knowledge or concepts you've learned along the way from here or there. Everything in life one experiences impacts them whether they realize it or not. The brain doesn't compartmentalize undergrad here and grad school there.

To me a undergraduate school degree is useful as a prerequisite because it allows more well rounded education (and maybe some of those "stereotypical" PT's choose a different career path in time because of this), it allows one to mature and get more life experience (than they would have going to PT school 1 yr out of HS), gives more credibility to a profession (although much to overcome in physical therapy given history of entry level training), gives one the opportunity to expose oneself to relevant material, etc. There's a difference between getting straight A's on prereqs for a year and getting an overall 3.5 over 4 years. Some H.S. students got grades that do not reflect their academic capabilities, knowledge or work ethic (i.e. Either high or low GPA).

I enjoyed my undergrad experience and got a top notch education. Better investment than 99% of anything else you could buy.

I'm pretty sure the PTA's who went to 2 years of Associates school are doing just fine talking to the patients as well. Cmon, Everybody has different life experiences that make them who they are. I've seen DPTs(in my class), who sat in the front, always got all A's, pour over articles, etc...be horrible with patients.

 

[ptisfun2]

Seems like some in this thread think entry-level PT education is the pinnacle of a person's education, and others think entry-level PT education is part of a person's education. I side with the latter for sure, even for those for whom DPT is the last degree granted, but also understand that many side with the former.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

I'm pretty sure the PTA's who went to 2 years of Associates school are doing just fine talking to the patients as well. Cmon, Everybody has different life experiences that make them who they are. I've seen DPTs(in my class), who sat in the front, always got all A's, pour over articles, etc...be horrible with patients.

Talking with, relaing to and being "smooth" with patients likely has little to nothing to do with education and a lot to do with experience and basline social skills. So saying PTA's are "doing just fine with 2 years" and you've seen "DPT's" (students at the time) "be horrible" makes no sense. You imply education doesn't matter (I agree, at least it probably doesn't matter very much) but your reasoning with partially educated PT students anectdote doesn't flow. And what does this have to do with undergrad? If anything undergrad builds social skills a lot more than grad school. PT school clinicals help quite a lot too probably.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

"A lack of evidence of value is not evidence of a lack of value. Just because some didn't plan well and got a less relevant degree (and then claim undergrad degree doesn't matter) doesn't prove anything."

• Of course it doesn't prove anything - we're not talking about a randomized, double-blinded, controlled trial here.

"Value is not only monetary, so get off the american capitalist bandwagon and be a little more enlightened and diverse in thought."

• Why? By far and away the most commonly posted topics on here revolve around PT school cost and mounting debt necessary to aqcuire a PT degree.

"To me a undergraduate school degree is useful as a prerequisite because it... gives more credibility to a profession (although much to overcome in physical therapy given history of entry level training)..."

• History of entry-level training isn't the reason our profession has a credibility issue. It's the relative lack of large-scale, controlled trials that support what we do, along with the attraction a significant portion of our colleagues have towards vodoo and pseudo-science.

"I enjoyed my undergrad experience and got a top notch education."

• Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed undergrad. A lot. And my institution seemed to prepare me well for graduate school course-work. I just don't think it was necessary for me to take Golf, Plant Physiology, Persuasive Writing, insert other non-pre-requisite class here..., in order for me to grasp PT school coursework, or to relate to my patients.

I think the bottom line is this - The debt that many students are incurring is a problem, and I think it may take some outside-the-box thinking to look at ways to rectify it. I don't think we can count on graduate schools to reduce their tuition, but if they required fewer courses prior to entering PT school, it might reduce the debt load, and I don't think it would negatively impact patient outcomes, or our standing (or lack thereof) within the Allied Health Professions community.

This is a bit off topic, and has little to nothing to do with undergrad. But I'll go on a rambling anyway.
We have immense evidence to support what we do, this is not remotely the issue with regard to out credibility. The "folks" who read physical therapy literature/evidence are by and large in the profession of physical therapy. What impact does evidence have on public policy? Little to none (especially when there is history of doing things a certain way). The majority of non physical therapist healthcare providers who have a say with regard to physical therapy or impact policy with regard to physical therapy are ignoramouses or diletants. Our credibility issues to me (from the perspective of patients and other healthcare providers) stem from lack of self esteem, lack of taking ownership in ones profession, and antiquated policy and procedure. If our credibility were in question as you suggest then we wouldn't be getting "orders" all day long from "credible" doctors. Credibility in physical therapy as you describe it has long been established. A simple example of our credibility issue, to me, is use of the words "orders, script, prescription", etc. I find it hard to see someone as credible when they're following someone else or using words like that to describe communication or interprofessional collaboration.

 

[engmedpt]

The majority of non physical therapist healthcare providers who have a say with regard to physical therapy or impact policy with regard to physical therapy are ignoramouses or diletants

......Ya.

 

[NewDPT31]

Talking with, relaing to and being "smooth" with patients likely has little to nothing to do with education and a lot to do with experience and basline social skills. So saying PTA's are "doing just fine with 2 years" and you've seen "DPT's" (students at the time) "be horrible" makes no sense. You imply education doesn't matter (I agree, at least it probably doesn't matter very much) but your reasoning with partially educated PT students anectdote doesn't flow. And what does this have to do with undergrad? If anything undergrad builds social skills a lot more than grad school. PT school clinicals help quite a lot too probably.

No, I am not talking solely about classmates during PT school, which ended 4 years ago. I work with PTAs who have practiced for 26 years, 1 year and 3 years. All have "just an associates". They are all wonderfully competent and great with patients. I have also worked with DPTs from Northwestern, WashU, etc who are all super brainy and definitely understand things better than me, but it doesn't translate well with actually treating. That's what I'm saying, is gaining social skills from undergrad is not a reason to spend 4 years taking BS classes.