Why does the AACP allow new schools to open up?

[Parklife]

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Why...

Who is making the calls in pharmacy school accreditation. Why are these no name schools allowed to open up new pharmacy schools. Is there no leadership at all? Who benefits? What is the incentive? Will these private schools really profit? How long until it all crashes? Even when the babyboomers die/older pharmacists retire won't this ridiculous influx of new schools leave a surplus? Or is that not the case? Won't automation and mail-order pharmacies also reduce the demand?


BLS says there are 274,900 pharmacy jobs as of 2010. How many grads are coming out every year?



I really hate how this works.

 

[bacillus1]

Because we live in a mostly capitalist society with free enterprise.

 

[confettiflyer]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10488671&highlight=federal+antitrust#post10488671

The Sherman Antitrust Act (15 U.S.C. § 1 specifically) prevents a Department of Education recognized accrediting body--such as ACPE--from arbitrarily controlling the number of schools in areas and requirements under its purview.

English: If ACPE makes it too hard for a new school to open, and does not apply those more stringent standards to new schools, it will be sued. If ACPE makes more stringent standards, applies them to ALL schools, and this successfully keeps new schools from opening up....every single school in the country would close because no one would be able to comply. Further, if those standards are arbitrary, ACPE will get sued (see below).

This is the reality, there's no way around it, people who say we should keep new schools from opening are wasting their breath. Any attempt at manipulating the accreditation process to restrict schools is DOA. The ABA piled on some unrelated accreditation requirements in 1995, promised not to do it, but then got caught by the DOJ for doing it, and had to pay ~$200k fine in 2006. (source) Interestingly, relevant to this discussion is this from that press release:

"the ABA would be prohibited from...Refusing to accredit schools simply because they are for-profit."

Anyway, as I've said before, the train has left the station...and there's 120+ years of federal law backing it up. The only way to fix it is to give that train some track to run on and open up the profession on the back end w/ increased niches and things to do.

 

[30Percent]

Props to the ABA in trying to regulate their profession, even though it failed. The saturation in law is horrible.

 

[xiphoid2010]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10488671&highlight=federal+antitrust#post10488671

The Sherman Antitrust Act (15 U.S.C. § 1 specifically) prevents a Department of Education recognized accrediting body--such as ACPE--from arbitrarily controlling the number of schools in areas and requirements under its purview.

English: If ACPE makes it too hard for a new school to open, and does not apply those more stringent standards to new schools, it will be sued. If ACPE makes more stringent standards, applies them to ALL schools, and this successfully keeps new schools from opening up....every single school in the country would close because no one would be able to comply. Further, if those standards are arbitrary, ACPE will get sued (see below).

This is the reality, there's no way around it, people who say we should keep new schools from opening are wasting their breath. Any attempt at manipulating the accreditation process to restrict schools is DOA. The ABA piled on some unrelated accreditation requirements in 1995, promised not to do it, but then got caught by the DOJ for doing it, and had to pay ~$200k fine in 2006. (source) Interestingly, relevant to this discussion is this from that press release:

"the ABA would be prohibited from...Refusing to accredit schools simply because they are for-profit."

Anyway, as I've said before, the train has left the station...and there's 120+ years of federal law backing it up. The only way to fix it is to give that train some track to run on and open up the profession on the back end w/ increased niches and things to do.

The way to prevent new school from opening is to not sign up as preceptor and rotation sites. New mills can't get enough rotation sites to meet current requirement, they can't open. Too bad we do live in a capitalistic society, and when new schools offer to pay $$$ for rotations, enough bow to the the all mighty dollar and sign up. And guess where the new schools get that money? 🙄 But most students just say "I got student loans for that"...

 

[hereticmnk]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10488671&highlight=federal+antitrust#post10488671

The Sherman Antitrust Act (15 U.S.C. § 1 specifically) prevents a Department of Education recognized accrediting body--such as ACPE--from arbitrarily controlling the number of schools in areas and requirements under its purview.

English: If ACPE makes it too hard for a new school to open, and does not apply those more stringent standards to new schools, it will be sued. If ACPE makes more stringent standards, applies them to ALL schools, and this successfully keeps new schools from opening up....every single school in the country would close because no one would be able to comply. Further, if those standards are arbitrary, ACPE will get sued (see below).

This is the reality, there's no way around it, people who say we should keep new schools from opening are wasting their breath. Any attempt at manipulating the accreditation process to restrict schools is DOA. The ABA piled on some unrelated accreditation requirements in 1995, promised not to do it, but then got caught by the DOJ for doing it, and had to pay ~$200k fine in 2006. (source) Interestingly, relevant to this discussion is this from that press release:

"the ABA would be prohibited from...Refusing to accredit schools simply because they are for-profit."

Anyway, as I've said before, the train has left the station...and there's 120+ years of federal law backing it up. The only way to fix it is to give that train some track to run on and open up the profession on the back end w/ increased niches and things to do.

Great post 👍
I have been trying to tell people a long time that all they can do is set accreditation criteria and make them more stringent but that's about it. I am glad there is actual evidence to back this up 🙂

 

[cycloketocaine]

Why...

Who is making the calls in pharmacy school accreditation. Why are these no name schools allowed to open up new pharmacy schools. Is there no leadership at all? Who benefits? What is the incentive? Will these private schools really profit? How long until it all crashes? Even when the babyboomers die/older pharmacists retire won't this ridiculous influx of new schools leave a surplus? Or is that not the case? Won't automation and mail-order pharmacies also reduce the demand?


BLS says there are 274,900 pharmacy jobs as of 2010. How many grads are coming out every year?



I really hate how this works.

Because AACP has nothing to do with it.

 

[Parklife]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10488671&highlight=federal+antitrust#post10488671

The Sherman Antitrust Act (15 U.S.C. § 1 specifically) prevents a Department of Education recognized accrediting body--such as ACPE--from arbitrarily controlling the number of schools in areas and requirements under its purview.

English: If ACPE makes it too hard for a new school to open, and does not apply those more stringent standards to new schools, it will be sued. If ACPE makes more stringent standards, applies them to ALL schools, and this successfully keeps new schools from opening up....every single school in the country would close because no one would be able to comply. Further, if those standards are arbitrary, ACPE will get sued (see below).

This is the reality, there's no way around it, people who say we should keep new schools from opening are wasting their breath. Any attempt at manipulating the accreditation process to restrict schools is DOA. The ABA piled on some unrelated accreditation requirements in 1995, promised not to do it, but then got caught by the DOJ for doing it, and had to pay ~$200k fine in 2006. (source) Interestingly, relevant to this discussion is this from that press release:

"the ABA would be prohibited from...Refusing to accredit schools simply because they are for-profit."

Anyway, as I've said before, the train has left the station...and there's 120+ years of federal law backing it up. The only way to fix it is to give that train some track to run on and open up the profession on the back end w/ increased niches and things to do.

This. Can you elaborate on this as well as you did with your initial explanation? How and what can pharmacists do now?

 

[confettiflyer]

I just realized there was a typo in my original post from a few years ago, it should read as follows:

"English: If ACPE makes it too hard for a new school to open, and does not apply those more stringent standards to old schools, it will be sued."

This. Can you elaborate on this as well as you did with your initial explanation? How and what can pharmacists do now?

Basically, if you want to "blunt" the effects of more graduates, you can't do it from the supply side as I previously discussed. You're going to have to create more pharmacist demand to absorb the extra jobs.

What can we do now? Use the knowledge we learned in school, advocate for services run by pharmacists (ie pharmacokinetic consults, you'd be surprised how many hospitals don't have "vanco dosing per pharmacy" as standard), link up with physicians friendly to pharmacy and sell ourselves as practitioners that save MD/DO's time/money/frustration. Stop being antagonistic to nurses...they can and do advocate for pharmacy to expand services to ward floors.

So a bunch of little things, tl;dr version = don't be a drone, expanding your usefulness = compelling reason to expand your budget = more FTE's.

 

[Parklife]

I just realized there was a typo in my original post from a few years ago, it should read as follows:

"English: If ACPE makes it too hard for a new school to open, and does not apply those more stringent standards to old schools, it will be sued."



Basically, if you want to "blunt" the effects of more graduates, you can't do it from the supply side as I previously discussed. You're going to have to create more pharmacist demand to absorb the extra jobs.

What can we do now? Use the knowledge we learned in school, advocate for services run by pharmacists (ie pharmacokinetic consults, you'd be surprised how many hospitals don't have "vanco dosing per pharmacy" as standard), link up with physicians friendly to pharmacy and sell ourselves as practitioners that save MD/DO's time/money/frustration. Stop being antagonistic to nurses...they can and do advocate for pharmacy to expand services to ward floors.

So a bunch of little things, tl;dr version = don't be a drone, expanding your usefulness = compelling reason to expand your budget = more FTE's.

And all that can't happen because of pay right? No one wants to pay a pharmacist the 113k or whatever sticker salary, and pharmacists don't want lower paying jobs because of the student loans...even the 80k is steep if you want a pharmacist on the floor.

I have to get my girlfriend to do something else. 🙄

Thanks for the input

Now what about mail-order pharmacies and automation? How will they play a role? I'm trying to understand all the facades of this dilemma.

 

[confettiflyer]

I think you missed the point of my post entirely.

 

[Parklife]

I think you missed the point of my post entirely.

I don't think I did. We can't have more FTE if we don't have money. Budgets are going lower, not higher. Wouldn't this affect the salaries of the pharmacists? The older pharmacists will probably stay with the higher paying positions. Meanwhile, all these expensive private pharmacy schools will result in new grads to grab whatever job they can. Why pay more when you can pay less? Note that I'm looking 4 years into the future - not the next month.

 

[owlegrad]

I think you missed the point of my post entirely.

No worries, your point is well made. 👍

 

[Indypharm]

I like your new avatar. I wonder what my boggart would be...

No worries, your point is well made. 👍