Why doesn't the US have accelerated BS/MD tracks?

[bollywoodlover]

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It's a bit frustrating to me that a lot of other countries graduate their med students at such a young age, while the US takes an extra 2-4 years to train our students. I thought at least half of undergrad was a huge waste of time and we are wasting resources and money to require some classes that we will never need as a med student or in other fields.

Now it's even getting to be the norm to have more non-trads in med school and the average age of matriculation has gone up since back in the day. The norm is making it harder for females like myself to raise families and have kids at the appropriate time. Is it really to our benefit to be training physicians at an older age. Isn't it easier to learn when you are younger?

What do you think? Do you think moving to a 5 or 6 yr combined BS/MD program would be a good move? I would definitely be for it. I don't really see any downsides. Some would maybe say this might cause maturity issues, but the other countries seem to be doing fine. If anything maybe it could at least be an option.

 

[Temerit]

I completely agree, but it seems like if anything we're prolonging the process what with so many people taking multiple gap years.

 

[Daodejing]

There are already 6-8 year bs/md programs...

 

[bollywoodlover]

There are already 6-8 year bs/md programs...

Where are there 6 yrs programs? I doubt they are very accesible. I don't think they are common. In other countries, it's pretty much always a 5-6 yr bs/md track. 8 yrs is a regular track. 4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs MD school= 8.

 

[3bamboo]

There are MANY BS/MD paths that last around 7 years, the trouble is many high school students don't know about them unless there super on top of their game.

And its not all gold getting medical education in other places. Sure in England they can go right into medical school, but their residency and specialty training is several years longer than here (like around 4 years longer if I'm not mistaken). So although they may become physicians before us, we will be fully licensed and practicing independently in our specialty before them (unless you do some crazy residency + fellowship).

 

[Daodejing]

I believe UMKC is 6 years. There may be others, but it's late. I agree with you about your sentiments. I just feel that if students choose to, they can start early and, most importantly, have the peace of mind of a guaranteed admission. The bs/md programs are not as publicized as they could be though. So it may take high school students who are truly interested/motivated to search for them. Personally, I wish I had applied to more as a senior in high school, but I was just out of the know. However, I don't think the US will ever align with the more vocational international curriculum. This is actually a hotly debated topic in education, and the side vouching for making students "well-rounded" (whatever that means) is winning.

Interestingly, many current physicians I've talked to (especially in surgery) have mentioned that training years in residency and fellowship should be longer than what they are right now. Work hour restrictions are promoting less know-how and acumen in residents than they had before restrictions were put into place. If (and this is a big if) PGY years increase, then obviously this will take an even larger toll on older non-trad med school applicants. Years spent practicing will be significantly limited.

 

[3bamboo]

I believe UMKC is 6 years. There may be others, but it's late. I agree with you about your sentiments. I just feel that if students choose to, they can start early and, most importantly, have the peace of mind of a guaranteed admission. The bs/md programs are not as publicized as they could be though. So it may take high school students who are truly interested/motivated to search for them. Personally, I wish I had applied to more as a senior in high school, but I was just out of the know. However, I don't think the US will ever align with the more vocational international curriculum. This is actually a hotly debated topic in education, and the side vouching for making students "well-rounded" (whatever that means) is winning.

I graduate after 4 years magna cum laude with a biology degree = can't find summer job that pays more than 10 dollars an hour
I do a year long trade-apprenticeship (plumber or construction or something)= could prob land a 30 dollar an hour job quickly.

Being well rounded is great for the mind but knowing about Plato and democracy does absolutely nothing to get you employed. College definitely isn't the gateway that it was proclaimed to be - well unless your a business major or you plan on getting a graduate degree (like all of us here).

 

[bollywoodlover]

I graduate after 4 years magna cum laude with a biology degree = can't find summer job that pays more than 10 dollars an hour
I do a year long trade-apprenticeship (plumber or construction or something)= could prob land a 30 dollar an hour job quickly.

Being well rounded is great for the mind but knowing about Plato and democracy does absolutely nothing to get you employed. College definitely isn't the gateway that it was proclaimed to be - well unless your a business major or you plan on getting a graduate degree (like all of us here).

Haha. Ya well-rounded isn't really a priority for me. Why not just be great at your specialty? College undergrad education is just becoming a money making machine. Hardly any of it is applicable and these days a BS isn't enough to find a decent job unless it's in engineering.

 

[bollywoodlover]

I believe UMKC is 6 years. There may be others, but it's late. I agree with you about your sentiments. I just feel that if students choose to, they can start early and, most importantly, have the peace of mind of a guaranteed admission. The bs/md programs are not as publicized as they could be though. So it may take high school students who are truly interested/motivated to search for them. Personally, I wish I had applied to more as a senior in high school, but I was just out of the know. However, I don't think the US will ever align with the more vocational international curriculum. This is actually a hotly debated topic in education, and the side vouching for making students "well-rounded" (whatever that means) is winning.

Interestingly, many current physicians I've talked to (especially in surgery) have mentioned that training years in residency and fellowship should be longer than what they are right now. Work hour restrictions are promoting less know-how and acumen in residents than they had before restrictions were put into place. If (and this is a big if) PGY years increase, then obviously this will take an even larger toll on older non-trad med school applicants. Years spent practicing will be significantly limited.

I guess I'd honeslty take an extra year or two of residency over a year or two extra of undergrad. An extra 4 yrs seems crazy though. For surgery it seems reasonable though. I'm not sure if the docs pushing for longer residencies were surgeons or not. If so I wouldn't be surprised. I suppose the residency hours were A LOT longer and harsher back when there were no regulations. I'm sure most surgeons don't have any sympathy at all, just work work work till ya die. They can't teach as much if hours are shorter now.

 

[Loveless]

Being well rounded is great for the mind but knowing about Plato and democracy does absolutely nothing to get you employed. College definitely isn't the gateway that it was proclaimed to be - well unless your a business major or you plan on getting a graduate degree (like all of us here).

You're looking at it the wrong way. Sure, you can make great money as a plumber, but it's an intellectual dead end. Not many people can wake up happy each morning knowing the highlight of their day is snaking a toilet.

 

[futureshrink]

There are a few 6 year medical programs in the US. As someone already mentioned, there's UMKC. Howard also has a 6 year program. Ohio State and another school in Ohio (can't remember which) also have programs that can be either 6 or 7 years. There are a few more that are 7 years and a bunch that are 8 years, which would have someone finished with residency earlier than many international programs would.

 

[ebbandflow83]

It's a bit frustrating to me that a lot of other countries graduate their med students at such a young age, while the US takes an extra 2-4 years to train our students. I thought at least half of undergrad was a huge waste of time and we are wasting resources and money to require some classes that we will never need as a med student or in other fields.

Now it's even getting to be the norm to have more non-trads in med school and the average age of matriculation has gone up since back in the day. The norm is making it harder for females like myself to raise families and have kids at the appropriate time. Is it really to our benefit to be training physicians at an older age. Isn't it easier to learn when you are younger?

What do you think? Do you think moving to a 5 or 6 yr combined BS/MD program would be a good move? I would definitely be for it. I don't really see any downsides. Some would maybe say this might cause maturity issues, but the other countries seem to be doing fine. If anything maybe it could at least be an option.

I think having it as an option (or more prevalent option as the case may be) would be a good idea. The profession will do well the more diversity it has. Not every doctor needs to be able to think creatively about new solutions to the ever-changing landscape of healthcare, but it would be a shame if we totally lost that. Having a six-year path for people who know exactly what they want to do when they are 18 is probably a good idea. Having some docs graduate with and MPH or PhD as well is also a good idea. I personally won't be starting med school until I'm 29, and I think it will make me a different type of doctor for sure, but not objectively better or worse then anyone else. Just better suited for certain problems, and worse off for others.

 

[Law2Doc]

It's a bit frustrating to me that a lot of other countries graduate their med students at such a young age, while the US takes an extra 2-4 years to train our students. I thought at least half of undergrad was a huge waste of time and we are wasting resources and money to require some classes that we will never need as a med student or in other fields.

Now it's even getting to be the norm to have more non-trads in med school and the average age of matriculation has gone up since back in the day. The norm is making it harder for females like myself to raise families and have kids at the appropriate time. Is it really to our benefit to be training physicians at an older age. Isn't it easier to learn when you are younger?

What do you think? Do you think moving to a 5 or 6 yr combined BS/MD program would be a good move? I would definitely be for it. I don't really see any downsides. Some would maybe say this might cause maturity issues, but the other countries seem to be doing fine. If anything maybe it could at least be an option.

If you do a search you will find many threads discussing this. There are a number of BS-MD programs but they are decreasing in number each year as these paths have fallen out of favor. There is value in college whether you want to acknowledge it or not. This country has rejected the straight from high school approach of other countries because the practice of medicine is very different in the US, more consumer relationship oriented, patient expectations are different, etc. College is a period of personal growth in this college, and for many is the most important four years of formative development in terms of interpersonal relationship, which are prized in the US form if medical practice. We want people in med school who are more mature, more comfortable in their own skin, and have already "come of age" not people who are still figuring thing out at that stage. So in this country we skew toward the college grad and older as making better trainees. Plus we want people who have proved themselves, as I will discuss below, so we want people who have already jumped through a lot of hurdles.

I would say people in other countries "doing fine" ignores the fact that the practice of medicine is very different here. They are doing fine for their system, but perhaps wouldn't be as well regarded here. And no, it's not "easier" to learn when you are " younger", particularly if you are comparing teen years to twenties (this comment might be true if you were comparing 20s to 60s, but that's not really the issue). There is no data at all that suggests a medical student can learn better at 17 than, say, 22. If anything the 22 year old is going to be less distracted in most cases. Most of us can remember what we were doing at 17 and recall that we were rather undisciplined and without the same level of maturity and judgement as they had just a few years later. And people blossom at different stages and in fact the nations that start medicine earlier lose a lot of great potential doctors who simply weren't mature enough to focus on a medical training at 17 but were superstars by 21 (some of whom ultimately have to go to other countries to train).

Plus there's higher attrition in most other nations -- they can take high schoolers ho haven't proven themselves because they can always fail them out later -- for the most part we don't do that here. In the US if you get into med school you are going to be a doctor. It's a much kinder path IMHO.

So no, there are a lot of good reasons the accelerated BS-MD programs aren't a good idea for most applicants (there are exceptions of course). And pointing to other countries ignores sone fundamental differences between practice here and attrition issues.

 

[Narmerguy]

There are MANY BS/MD paths that last around 7 years, the trouble is many high school students don't know about them unless there super on top of their game.

And its not all gold getting medical education in other places. Sure in England they can go right into medical school, but their residency and specialty training is several years longer than here (like around 4 years longer if I'm not mistaken). So although they may become physicians before us, we will be fully licensed and practicing independently in our specialty before them (unless you do some crazy residency + fellowship).

This is correct. From talking to quite a few English med students, many of them would have liked the freedom to explore our system affords. I think it's easy for us to take for granted how unique this is when we already have it. How many college students end up changing their major or dropping premed by the time they are juniors? Locking students into high debt training programs when they haven't been given sufficient opportunity to explore other options is irresponsible on both sides.

I graduate after 4 years magna cum laude with a biology degree = can't find summer job that pays more than 10 dollars an hour
I do a year long trade-apprenticeship (plumber or construction or something)= could prob land a 30 dollar an hour job quickly.

Being well rounded is great for the mind but knowing about Plato and democracy does absolutely nothing to get you employed. College definitely isn't the gateway that it was proclaimed to be - well unless your a business major or you plan on getting a graduate degree (like all of us here).

I think it's important that we clarify the purpose of college in a modern society. I think now, more than ever, it is important that we provide a well-rounded education that allows us to be not only good professionals in our career, but good citizens in society. My courses in sociology, philosophy, and economics may not change my ability to diagnose a tumor, but it will certainly make me a better citizen. The world is becoming an increasingly global, complicated mess. We need good citizens and well trained leaders in all areas to continue to improve.

I think having it as an option (or more prevalent option as the case may be) would be a good idea. The profession will do well the more diversity it has. Not every doctor needs to be able to think creatively about new solutions to the ever-changing landscape of healthcare, but it would be a shame if we totally lost that. Having a six-year path for people who know exactly what they want to do when they are 18 is probably a good idea. Having some docs graduate with and MPH or PhD as well is also a good idea. I personally won't be starting med school until I'm 29, and I think it will make me a different type of doctor for sure, but not objectively better or worse then anyone else. Just better suited for certain problems, and worse off for others.

I agree with this. I think it should be an option for some students. But the reality is that it already is an option. There are a few schools that do this already, and I was actually one of those students accepted into a BS/MD program. Somewhat luckily, my own interviewers began to advise me against taking it even if offered, and I am forever grateful. The broad experiences and courses I pursued in college have improved the way that I think about the world and I think this will be paid forward to many others.

If we're so desperate to cut out time, I personally think high school is a better candidate. The amount of growth and information gained in a year of high school vs the exposure and independent growth one experiences in a year of college cannot be compared. But I think it's important to acknowledge that this is not a race. There's no desperate need to produce physicians two years younger than we are currently producing them. We need to consider all the implications of these sorts of proposals.

 

[3bamboo]

I think it's important that we clarify the purpose of college in a modern society. I think now, more than ever, it is important that we provide a well-rounded education that allows us to be not only good professionals in our career, but good citizens in society. My courses in sociology, philosophy, and economics may not change my ability to diagnose a tumor, but it will certainly make me a better citizen. The world is becoming an increasingly global, complicated mess. We need good citizens and well trained leaders in all areas to continue to improve.


.

This is true and definitely sounds good in theory but think about the people in your undergraduate classes. If its anything like some people at my school they do the bare minimum to pass these classes and they hardly pay attention at all. I doubt they tok anything at all from the class, which is sad but true. I think at this age a good percentage of students are more worried about getting good marketable skills and they put everything else on hold to do so.

 

[Narmerguy]

This is true and definitely sounds good in theory but think about the people in your undergraduate classes. If its anything like some people at my school they do the bare minimum to pass these classes and they hardly pay attention at all. I doubt they tok anything at all from the class, which is sad but true. I think at this age a good percentage of students are more worried about getting good marketable skills and they put everything else on hold to do so.

I see your point, but do not think the appropriate response to this is to accommodate this mentality wherever possible. We can and should expect more of our students and of our institutions.

 

[Law2Doc]

I see your point, but do not think the appropriate response to this is to accommodate this mentality wherever possible. We can and should expect more of our students and of our institutions.

Agreed. The goal shouldn't be to make schools into mere vocational schools because a naive handful are too foolish to take advantage of the opportunities served up in front of them. Plus 80% of the education opportunities in college take place outside of class -- don't underestimate the interpersonal communication skills, leadership skills and culture you can be exposed to/involved in just by being active on campus. There's a reason med schools here put weight on ECs and leadership skills, and prize academic diversity, rather than just go gaga over the guy who does nothing but biochem courses.

 

[notbobtrustme]

This is correct. From talking to quite a few English med students, many of them would have liked the freedom to explore our system affords. I think it's easy for us to take for granted how unique this is when we already have it.

I think if they had the full story, they would much rather prefer their system. Their medical school is free (and some countries provide a stipend to attend). Their residency is better paid and less intense although you aren't a "full doctor" until a decade or more of residency, if ever. Even in the UK, with the most lenient work hours for residents, they typically do not go over 50 hours a week.

 

[gmcguitar4]

GW also has a 7 year program.

Maybe most schools don't do them because then they lose out on more tuition money?

Or maybe it is like what was said above. Committing people too early isn't the best because as you see now with many college students, they change their major late in college or drop out of school entirely or whatever. The 6-7 year programs lock people in who could have made the decision out of immaturity. Those people probably do not make the best medical students/doctors. 4 years of college and additional years after gives a person time to decide on going into medicine and really shows who has the desire to work in this profession the rest of their life. I also don't get why people freak out about the hard work as much as they do. It's not like when you graduate, you are going to work 2 full-time jobs, work 70 hours a week and barely make ends meet...like many many people do in this country.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think if they had the full story, they would much rather prefer their system. Their medical school is free (and some countries provide a stipend to attend). Their residency is better paid and less intense although you aren't a "full doctor" until a decade or more of residency, if ever. Even in the UK, with the most lenient work hours for residents, they typically do not go over 50 hours a week.

There are plusses and minuses of every system. The short answer is that the US system works for the practice here, and as a profession we have decided after multiple rounds of consideration that starting people younger doesn't, on average, crank out as desirable doctors. Which is why the trend at most schools is to have an average matriculation age of 23-24, with a few nontrads over thirty in every class, and why the BS-MD programs are becoming fewer in number every few years. We are moving away from this model because it doesn't work as well here.

 

[3bamboo]

I see your point, but do not think the appropriate response to this is to accommodate this mentality wherever possible. We can and should expect more of our students and of our institutions.

Don't get me wrong, I feel like my core classes have helped me tremendously in various aspects of my life. I am just a little bitter that they don't translate into any marketable skill for me to get a job during my gap year! Its more of a short term problem though and college wasn't designed to give you a quick fix job while you wait for medical school, so I guess I can't blame it too much.

 

[gmcguitar4]

Don't get me wrong, I feel like my core classes have helped me tremendously in various aspects of my life. I am just a little bitter that they don't translate into any marketable skill for me to get a job during my gap year! Its more of a short term problem though and college wasn't designed to give you a quick fix job while you wait for medical school, so I guess I can't blame it too much.

College education does not equal employment.
What people don't get though is that classes don't mean $h!t in the job world. The internships are what it's all about during school. I did an internship for 2 years AFTER college. Did it for med school but I got a job because of it and I could have gotten other great research jobs that I was basically offered but couldn't commit the time. People are just mislead that getting a job after college is some sort of mandate.

 

[MelonMan]

Being in medical school at 18... Hell no. We benefit a lot from the way we bring through physicians as a country. There are many problems with the field and areas we can improve upon... But a 4 year degree before med school isnt one of them.

 

[Doctor Strange]

I would not give up my four undergrad years for anything. I've gotten the chance to explore areas and topics that I never would have touched if I'd gone strictly into medicine right now. Everyone's in such a rush to be a doctor. Live life a little.

Sent from my LT28at using SDN Mobile

 

[Daodejing]

OP, bottom line is that there are things that can and should be changed about our education system. The same goes for international systems. Everyone will have different opinions. But implementing more BS/MD or vocational programs? No, not going to happen. Too radical of a change that uproots the foundation of the American liberal arts minded educational system.

 

[I am the Walrus]

http://www.********.com/2011/07/list-of-bamd-programs.html

 

[DermViser]

GW also has a 7 year program.

Maybe most schools don't do them because then they lose out on more tuition money?

Or maybe it is like what was said above. Committing people too early isn't the best because as you see now with many college students, they change their major late in college or drop out of school entirely or whatever. The 6-7 year programs lock people in who could have made the decision out of immaturity. Those people probably do not make the best medical students/doctors. 4 years of college and additional years after gives a person time to decide on going into medicine and really shows who has the desire to work in this profession the rest of their life. I also don't get why people freak out about the hard work as much as they do. It's not like when you graduate, you are going to work 2 full-time jobs, work 70 hours a week and barely make ends meet...like many many people do in this country.

Most schools that don't do them already have GREAT applicants as it is many of whom have accomplished great things. They don't need to go into the high school pool, bc their 4 year applicants are already top notch. This is 2014, not the 1960s.

 

[jturkel]

Boston University used to have a 6 yr BS/MD or BA/MD track. I think either Dartmouth or Brown did too. Boston got rid of theirs a while ago though

 

[Gauss44]

I could be wrong, but I think Boston University does have one. Maybe Brown too.

Are you 100% sure that they don't exist in the USA?

 

[jturkel]

I could be wrong, but I think Boston University does have one. Maybe Brown too.

Are you 100% sure that they don't exist in the USA?

did you see my post directly above (or below dependng on your settings) yours?

also: http://www.bu.edu/admissions/academics/programs/pre-med/

 

[FlatFour]

From what I've heard you should avoid 7 year programs, or at least research their legitimacy beforehand.

My school offers one for incoming freshmen. It used to be that if you're accepted into the accelerated undergrad program it's all smooth sailing all the way to medical school, provided that your MCAT score and GPA were not a complete disgrace. At some point they decided to change this and out of the 200 or so students in the program that year (yes, this is already a lot more freshman than a medical school can handle) only about 7 were able to proceed to med school. The real problem was that all of those 200 students still had to follow the standard application process, however they could only apply to the one school which was part of the program.

I'm not quite sure how accurate this is for other schools, but this is what I've heard from a 2nd year med student who was one of 7 to successfully complete the program.

 

[ninjaman22]

Didn't we just have this discussion?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-is-the-american-md-so-long.1064589/

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Now it's even getting to be the norm to have more non-trads in med school and the average age of matriculation has gone up since back in the day. The norm is making it harder for females like myself to raise families and have kids at the appropriate time. Is it really to our benefit to be training physicians at an older age. Isn't it easier to learn when you are younger?

You want to keep it real? Your baby popping is the problem. Train a limited amount of people. Then of those about half will waste a few years with babies. Now you complain education length is problem?