Why don't DO's advertise as US-Trained Physicians?

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There are osteopathic schools outside of the united states. No one lets them do anything serious tho.

Also of note, when you get an MD you can know that that person regardless of country of origin completed Step and an ACGME residency.

What about international students going to DO schools? Wouldnt part of their training "UG" be considered international?
 
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libertyyne said:
There are osteopathic schools outside of the united states. No one lets them do anything serious tho.

Also of note, when you get an MD you can know that that person regardless of country of origin completed Step and an ACGME residency.

What about international students going to DO schools? Wouldnt part of their training "UG" be considered international?
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All foreign MDs practicing in the US have not completed ACGME residency.
 
MedicineMike said:
All foreign MDs practicing in the US have not completed ACGME residency.
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Could you please elaborate on the other pathways? They are have traditionally been unable to complete AOA residencies. Depending on the state they would have had to complete one or more years of ACGME residency to obtain a license.
 
atomheart said:
Why advertise at all? Spend the money on changing the degree to MD and simplify the lettering distinction so people find another useless way to determine who's best.
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how else are we going to get tasty Make medicine great again and Trained in the USA memes?

2var42.jpg
 
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MedicineMike said:
MDs come from all over the world with quite different training backgrounds. Though most MDs are in fact US-trained, why don't DO's advertise themselves as "US only"-Trained physicians?
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Probably because from a marketing standpoint it sounds like it's saying "Not from India/China etc." In today's age you know someone would accuse it of being racist.

Personally speaking, the less DO groups do to differentiate themselves from MDs, the better in my mind.
 
BeCaUsE 'MeRIcA Ain'T GrEaT YeT.
 
The real answer is that nobody frickin' cares.

They care about BEING TAKEN CARE OF.

They don't like long waits. They like talking to their DOCTOR. Not med students. Not nurses. Not PAs.

If you are polite, smell good, and take your time to address their concerns, they love you.
 
First off, who says they don't? We are US-trained, we are AMGs, most of us that have graduated recently took Step 1 and are in ACGME residencies. To be completely honest I don't hear MDs advertise themselves as "US-trained," nor does anyone seem to care. When people come into clinic, I'm their doctor. Its up to them if they want me to be their DO, but most couldn't care less.

Its come up so few times in residency, and most of the time people say something like, "oh my favorite doctor was a DO." You don't notice it, the only times I do is when I bump into another DO.

Maybe it'll be different if I move out West, but I don't think so.
 
BMRMike said:
When asked what DO is I just tell MDs can be doctors from any country but DOs can only be trained in the US. None of that holistic bull**** and a works to end any questions.
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I’m 100% using this from now on.
 
Neopolymath said:
Let's start with trying to get people to think physician when they see DO and not immediately chiropractor/anything but a physician.
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I was a chiropractor, but now im a med student. I literally hate when chiropractors call themselves physicians. I saw a chiropractor on instagram the other day advertise himself as a "Board Certified Physician" not even kidding. Tells me we went through the same schooling as MD/DOs I was like bro you have no idea how much harder med school is. Having been to both chiro and med school, it is hilarious how little chiropractors know about virtually anything other than the musculoskeletal system (which they do know well I will admit to that).
 
Deecee2DO said:
I was a chiropractor, but now im a med student. I literally hate when chiropractors call themselves physicians. I saw a chiropractor on instagram the other day advertise himself as a "Board Certified Physician" not even kidding. Tells me we went through the same schooling as MD/DOs I was like bro you have no idea how much harder med school is. Having been to both chiro and med school, it is hilarious how little chiropractors know about virtually anything other than the musculoskeletal system (which they do know well I will admit to that).
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I don't care that chiropractors exist. I care that the AOA has done such a bad PR job that now we are even more associated with them and not less (see: Doctors that DO aka "We are special and NOT like MDs)
 
Neopolymath said:
I don't care that chiropractors exist. I care that the AOA has done such a bad PR job that now we are even more associated with them and not less (see: Doctors that DO aka "We are special and NOT like MDs)
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Chiropractors that claim they are physicians and walk around in white coats and stethoscopes bother me, but thats just me. Everyone gets a white coat these days. It is what it is. Who cares if we are advertised as being "special" at the end of the day DOs are legally physicians whether someone thinks they are or not comes down to ignorance
 
QueenJames said:
The real answer is that nobody frickin' cares.

They care about BEING TAKEN CARE OF.

They don't like long waits. They like talking to their DOCTOR. Not med students. Not nurses. Not PAs.

If you are polite, smell good, and take your time to address their concerns, they love you.
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QFT
 
Deecee2DO said:
Chiropractors that claim they are physicians and walk around in white coats and stethoscopes bother me, but thats just me. Everyone gets a white coat these days. It is what it is. Who cares if we are advertised as being "special" at the end of the day DOs are legally physicians whether someone thinks they are or not comes down to ignorance
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Psai is rolling in his grave right now!
 
atomheart said:
Why advertise at all? Spend the money on changing the degree to MD and simplify the lettering distinction so people find another useless way to determine who's best.
Click to expand...

We're accredited under COCA. LCME accredits MD granting institutions. That's their territory. I assume we can't just steal their letters (otherwise naturopaths would be likely be granting unaccredited MDs). If true, then we'd need their approval to grant MDs. How likely is it that LCME would want ~40 low tier institutions who don't currently meet their standards granting their letters?

Therefore, we would have to give ourselves new letters. MD-DO is a common suggestion. That's rad. Now we have to go into 50 states and individually claw back equal practicing rights. That's less rad.

I'm fine with the current letters. My suggestion for those deeply disturbed by their letters is to do the caribbean MD granting post-doc. It's likely less than the cost of changing the DO degree letters.
 
libertyyne said:
There are osteopathic schools outside of the united states. No one lets them do anything serious tho.

Also of note, when you get an MD you can know that that person regardless of country of origin completed Step and an ACGME residency.

What about international students going to DO schools? Wouldnt part of their training "UG" be considered international?
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They do not train DOs, they train osteopaths. US schools are the only ones that teach osteopathic medicine, all others only teach osteopathy
 
BlueBleck said:
We're accredited under COCA. LCME accredits MD granting institutions. That's their territory. I assume we can't just steal their letters (otherwise naturopaths would be likely be granting unaccredited MDs). If true, then we'd need their approval to grant MDs. How likely is it that LCME would want ~40 low tier institutions who don't currently meet their standards granting their letters?

Therefore, we would have to give ourselves new letters. MD-DO is a common suggestion. That's rad. Now we have to go into 50 states and individually claw back equal practicing rights. That's less rad.

I'm fine with the current letters. My suggestion for those deeply disturbed by their letters is to do the caribbean MD granting post-doc. It's likely less than the cost of changing the DO degree letters.
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There is basically no difference between my DO school and the newer MD school I frequently work with students from. Same lack of a true academic teaching hospital, same multi site third year model, etc. I actually had far more inpatient than them their MDs by several months. Given this, I find it doubtful that my school would fall short if LCME standards, as our parent university was willing to fund basic science faculty were we willing to go the MD route
 
BlueBleck said:
We're accredited under COCA. LCME accredits MD granting institutions. That's their territory. I assume we can't just steal their letters (otherwise naturopaths would be likely be granting unaccredited MDs). If true, then we'd need their approval to grant MDs. How likely is it that LCME would want ~40 low tier institutions who don't currently meet their standards granting their letters?

Therefore, we would have to give ourselves new letters. MD-DO is a common suggestion. That's rad. Now we have to go into 50 states and individually claw back equal practicing rights. That's less rad.

I'm fine with the current letters. My suggestion for those deeply disturbed by their letters is to do the caribbean MD granting post-doc. It's likely less than the cost of changing the DO degree letters.
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The LCME should find a way to absorb COCA before DO (and Caribbean) school expansion becomes completely unsustainable.

It is not that the LCME wants 40 additional schools, but that they now have control over the gateway. There are numerous postulations on the forums about what that would mean according to current LCME rules. I doubt it would cause the sky to fall even despite several school closures that perhaps shouldn't have existed in the first place. It's a good idea for anyone not financially dependent on the DO pathway such as COCA, AOA, and other physicians with strange ideas about the uniqueness of osteopathic medicine. DO students should not support continued advertisement of the 'unique' osteopathic profession and they certainly should not support school expansion.

For the record, there are numerous methods that would allow DO schools to adhere to LCME, but that would require these schools to do more than simply pocket student tuition.
 
Drrrrrr. Celty said:
Lets just acknolwedge that Dr. Mike's pretty face is better PR than the AOA. And I'm ok with that.
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I have such conflicting feelings about him. On the one hand, he appears to be an amazing human being and does a decent job of edu-tainment Youtube videos.

On the other hand, I'm not the biggest fan of Instagram Docs and his bottomless positivity grinds on my unnecessary cynicism/negativity. Also I will never be that pretty.
 
BlueBleck said:
We're accredited under COCA. LCME accredits MD granting institutions. That's their territory. I assume we can't just steal their letters (otherwise naturopaths would be likely be granting unaccredited MDs). If true, then we'd need their approval to grant MDs. How likely is it that LCME would want ~40 low tier institutions who don't currently meet their standards granting their letters?

Therefore, we would have to give ourselves new letters. MD-DO is a common suggestion. That's rad. Now we have to go into 50 states and individually claw back equal practicing rights. That's less rad.

I'm fine with the current letters. My suggestion for those deeply disturbed by their letters is to do the caribbean MD granting post-doc. It's likely less than the cost of changing the DO degree letters.
Click to expand...

I think the need to switch degrees is entirely unnecessary. We are still legally recognized physicians. I think the important bit regardless is raising the level of standards in education and forcing schools to really do their due diligence to actually mentor students and make their professional pathways easier to achieve. I think as far as things go my clinical training 3rd and 4th year was comparable to average lower tier and community medical programs and my experience rotating on aways was that I wasn't at all inferiorly prepared. However I felt that the lack of adequate mentorship, adequate advice for match, the lack of connections to programs really made my experience interviewing and applying much more difficult.

I think fundamentally we are often left to our own devices in the match as most faculty simply do not know or understand it. Or simply have educational pedigrees that don't offer them connections to contact program directors or individuals in high places at programs you may want to interview at.
 
BlueBleck said:
We're accredited under COCA. LCME accredits MD granting institutions. That's their territory. I assume we can't just steal their letters (otherwise naturopaths would be likely be granting unaccredited MDs). If true, then we'd need their approval to grant MDs. How likely is it that LCME would want ~40 low tier institutions who don't currently meet their standards granting their letters?

Therefore, we would have to give ourselves new letters. MD-DO is a common suggestion. That's rad. Now we have to go into 50 states and individually claw back equal practicing rights. That's less rad.

I'm fine with the current letters. My suggestion for those deeply disturbed by their letters is to do the caribbean MD granting post-doc. It's likely less than the cost of changing the DO degree letters.
Click to expand...
Wait so after you graduate as a DO you just pay for a caribbean MD? I'm confused you don't actually have to go back to school at all do you? since youd already have a medical degree you'd just be getting the letter change?
 
Sardonix said:
I have such conflicting feelings about him. On the one hand, he appears to be an amazing human being and does a decent job of edu-tainment Youtube videos.

On the other hand, I'm not the biggest fan of Instagram Docs and his bottomless positivity grinds on my unnecessary cynicism/negativity. Also I will never be that pretty.
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I never understood the big rave about him he's not even that good looking imo his looks are pretty hyped up
 
Deecee2DO said:
I never understood the big rave about him he's not even that good looking imo his looks are pretty hyped up
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Doctor plus decent looking = George Clooney to the women. I guess probably to some guys as well.
 
Deecee2DO said:
I never understood the big rave about him he's not even that good looking imo his looks are pretty hyped up
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This is inherent to all instagram figures--hence why I'm not the biggest fan of instagram docs. Literally everything they say and do is done to further their social media brand. I say I will never be that pretty because on one level, I gotta respect the man's muscles. But also I will never have a professional photographer documenting all the monotonous stuff I do and enhance it.

Oh and then there's the fact they give doctors a bad rap by flashing their wealth and lifestyle and suddenly a bunch of gullible patients expect that from every physician.
 
Sardonix said:
This is inherent to all instagram figures--hence why I'm not the biggest fan of instagram docs. Literally everything they say and do is done to further their social media brand. I say I will never be that pretty because on one level, I gotta respect the man's muscles. But also I will never have a professional photographer documenting all the monotonous stuff I do and enhance it.

Oh and then there's the fact they give doctors a bad rap by flashing their wealth and lifestyle and suddenly a bunch of gullible patients expect that from every physician.
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And half of them are chiropractors, PTs, PhDs, naturopaths with Dr. as their insta name trying to give out medical advice. When you see the Dr. so and so without credentials many times a dead giveaway they are not an MD/DO
 
Sardonix said:
This is inherent to all instagram figures--hence why I'm not the biggest fan of instagram docs. Literally everything they say and do is done to further their social media brand. I say I will never be that pretty because on one level, I gotta respect the man's muscles. But also I will never have a professional photographer documenting all the monotonous stuff I do and enhance it.

Oh and then there's the fact they give doctors a bad rap by flashing their wealth and lifestyle and suddenly a bunch of gullible patients expect that from every physician.
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he seems like an idiot who is flexing his credentials, which are frankly not that impressive. I know many people IRL who have have way more impressive credentials and more interesting things to say.
 
Deecee2DO said:
And half of them are chiropractors, PTs, PhDs, naturopaths with Dr. as their insta name trying to give out medical advice. When you see the Dr. so and so without credentials many times a dead giveaway they are not an MD/DO
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It is soo funny that anytime i see a video with a whitecoat i know it is either a natruopath, an NP, or a chiropractor.
 
libertyyne said:
It is soo funny that anytime i see a video with a whitecoat i know it is either a natruopath, an NP, or a chiropractor.
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Yup every time. Since I used to be a chiropractor I have a lot of chiropractors I know on my insta and i see vids of them with steths Im like tell me one thing you are using that for? You manipulate joints for a living save your money (trust me theyll need it schooling is 200K and avg salary is 65K/year)
 
Because they are focused on providing good health care and being good at their job, I do not think DO's and the DO administration leaders really care
 
libertyyne said:
Could you please elaborate on the other pathways? They are have traditionally been unable to complete AOA residencies. Depending on the state they would have had to complete one or more years of ACGME residency to obtain a license.
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If you do residency in Canada, you can practice in the US immediately. I think there are other countries which qualify but I think those pathways have become quite limited now or non-existent. It's mainly Canada-USA that have the reciprocal relationship.
 
libertyyne said:
It is soo funny that anytime i see a video with a whitecoat i know it is either a natruopath, an NP, or a chiropractor.
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Or a failed out OMS1..... we had one who keeps up their all things medicine/medical school/research/#unnecessarystethoscope instagram persona despite failing out in 1st year 2nd semester.
 
sunshinefl said:
Or a failed out OMS1..... we had one who keeps up their all things medicine/medical school/research/#unnecessarystethoscope instagram persona despite failing out in 1st year 2nd semester.
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wait , what i must have missed this one this is almost as bad as twolittlebears.
 
MedicineMike said:
All foreign MDs practicing in the US have not completed ACGME residency.
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And you're basing this on...?

State requirements universally require US post-graduate training for FMGs. The only mds or mbbs without full residency came from foreign academic center and are allowed to work at a sponsored major us academic institution.

It is disingenuous to act like these people aren't well trained bc they tend to be cream of the crop which is why places like Hopkins or MGH bring them over.

remember not all IMG / fmg are from the Caribbean. Alot come from Cambridge and Oxford and other very well regarded European and South American institutions.
 
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I think I'd have a hard time throwing our IMG/FMG colleagues under the bus like that. They tend to be brilliant physicians. Med school is more rigorous in many countries than it is here, and only the best students in other countries make it to a US residency. They've also often seen pathology in their home countries that attendings in the US with 30+ years of experience have never seen.
 
NurWollen said:
I think I'd have a hard time throwing our IMG/FMG colleagues under the bus like that. They tend to be brilliant physicians. Med school is more rigorous in many countries than it is here, and only the best students in other countries make it to a US residency. They've also often seen pathology in their home countries that attendings in the US with 30+ years of experience have never seen.
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I agree with not throwing them under the bus but I wouldn't say med school is more rigorous elsewhere by any means. Med students outside of North America do primarily (or only) shadowing. Same goes for Europe and Australia, it's simply very hands off.
 
MedicineZ0Z said:
I agree with not throwing them under the bus but I wouldn't say med school is more rigorous elsewhere by any means. Med students outside of North America do primarily (or only) shadowing. Same goes for Europe and Australia, it's simply very hands off.
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Yeah I agree to say that IMG med school is harder is a stretch. US MD/DO is cream of the crop
 
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