Why hate on hard workers?

[JP2740]

I won't speak for other fields because I'm not in them, but why do people in the medical field (esp students but not just students) hate on people who work hard? Not just studying-wise, but people who want to work hard even after residency?

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[calvnandhobbs68]

I won't speak for other fields because I'm not in them, but why do people in the medical field (esp students but not just students) hate on people who work hard? Not just studying-wise, but people who want to work hard even after residency?

Like who? I've never met somebody in my class who genuinely disliked the people who work harder than they do. There might be a "gunner" joke here or there but they're all jokes. The people I know realize that everyone has different goals and the student who wants to do peds isn't gonna have to put in as many hours in med school as the student who wants to do ortho.

I don't know where you got the idea that people get hated on for working hard during residency.

Edit: I realize gunner doesn't just mean a hard worker. That's why they're jokes.

 

[Hillo]

Jealousy, their inferiority complex, too much praise from their parents, ect (at least from my experience).

 

[projectlogic]

I've never really seen that.

Remember folks, gunner does not simply mean someone who is a hard worker. Gunners are people who stab others in the back, just to get ahead.

Kinda like this guy:

 

[JP2740]

lmfao, great pic... is that real?

 

[rocketbooster]

Another idiotic post by our M1 friend.

/close thread

 

[John Lannister]

I won't speak for other fields because I'm not in them, but why do people in the medical field (esp students but not just students) hate on people who work hard? Not just studying-wise, but people who want to work hard even after residency?

People don't like one sided individuals of that one side is studying. Why? It's not interesting.

No one cares if people work their ass off. That's a good thing.

 

[NickNaylor]

I agree with calvn, though I think there's a progression in people's relationships with their classmates as class lumbers on. At the beginning of M1, everyone is on their own jock because, hey, they're going to med school. **** yeah. You're awesome, and you earned a pretty rad gold star. As the year goes on, people continue on with the assumption that higher grades means more mastery means better doctor. Obviously you don't want to be a bad doctor, so you need to get up to snuff. Eventually, you come to realize that people just have different priorities. For some, med school is their sole priority and their goal is to do nothing short of learning everything that is presented to them. For others, it's not as intense, and while they obviously don't want to fail they're content with whatever they earn.

I don't think people hate on hard workers so much as they're jelly and haven't yet developed a more mature ego defense to the realization that they just might not be the sharpest stick in the bunch. I say this as someone that was jelly before recognizing that I'm pretty happy with the way my life is prioritized and that even if I COULD be at the top of the class - which I definitely cannot - I likely wouldn't put forth the effort or make the sacrifices necessary to do so. You have to remember that most med students were at the top of whatever cohort they came from before med school. When you then put all those people together and compare them, someone has to be at the bottom, and that's an uncomfortable position for someone that is used to the exact opposite.

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[Kaputt]

I agree with calvn, though I think there's a progression in people's relationships with their classmates as class lumbers on. At the beginning of M1, everyone is on their own jock because, hey, they're going to med school. **** yeah. You're awesome, and you earned a pretty rad gold star. As the year goes on, people continue on with the assumption that higher grades means more mastery means better doctor. Obviously you don't want to be a bad doctor, so you need to get up to snuff. Eventually, you come to realize that people just have different priorities. For some, med school is their sole priority and their goal is to do nothing short of learning everything that is presented to them. For others, it's not as intense, and while they obviously don't want to fail they're content with whatever they earn.

I don't think people hate on hard workers so much as they're jelly and haven't yet developed a more mature ego defense to the realization that they just might not be the sharpest stick in the bunch. I say this as someone that was jelly before recognizing that I'm pretty happy with the way my life is prioritized and that even if I COULD be at the top of the class - which I definitely cannot - I likely wouldn't put forth the effort or make the sacrifices necessary to do so. You have to remember that most med students were at the top of whatever cohort they came from before med school. When you then put all those people together and compare them, someone has to be at the bottom, and that's an uncomfortable position for someone that is used to the exact opposite.

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This pretty much describes med school

 

[survivordo]

I don't think there is much hate going on for people who are hard workers, the hate is for people who are hard workers and then feel compelled to tell you about how hard of a worker they and somehow manage to squeeze their latest accomplishment into each conversation.

Survivor DO

 

[circulus vitios]

Hard workers within the context of higher education are usually smug, pathetic losers who fill their empty lives and empty personalities with mindless busywork like it's something us 'slackers' should admire and strive toward. Oh, you studied 12 hours a day for an exam? Get back to me when you do something that's actually interesting, you soulless nerdlinger.

 

[MrSunny1]

Yes OP I think youve completely missed it. "gunner" has nothing to do with hard work. It is that underlying belief that some people have that in order for "me" to do better others must do worse.

It can span from not sharing information, to missleading, to cheating.. no telling how far these people will actually go to be at the top. They are seriously a problem and I certainly can not even imagine how much damage they cause in the world outside of school.

However...... many people do use the term simply to describe anyone who studies more than they do or is more ambitious and active.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Yes OP I think youve completely missed it. "gunner" has nothing to do with hard work. It is that underlying belief that some people have that in order for "me" to do better others must do worse.

It can span from not sharing information, to missleading, to cheating.. no telling how far these people will actually go to be at the top. They are seriously a problem and I certainly can not even imagine how much damage they cause in the world outside of school.

However...... many people do use the term simply to describe anyone who studies more than they do or is more ambitious and active.

The word "gunner" was not mentioned once in the OP but thanks for letting us know how it is pre-med.

 

[MrSunny1]

The word "gunner" was not mentioned once in the OP but thanks for letting us know how it is pre-med.

Oh messed that up oh well same point is still there hard worker/gunner whatever

 

[BlaseFaire]

People are just insecure and constantly comparing themselves to one another in the vain attempt to feel better. All it does is provoke anxiety, though.

We're all better off assuming that everyone is hard-working and doing well.

 

[johnmendes]

People are just insecure and constantly comparing themselves to one another in the vain attempt to feel better. All it does is provoke anxiety, though.

We're all better off assuming that everyone is hard-working and doing well.

/thread

 

[mcloaf]

Hard workers within the context of higher education are usually smug, pathetic losers who fill their empty lives and empty personalities with mindless busywork like it's something us 'slackers' should admire and strive toward. Oh, you studied 12 hours a day for an exam? Get back to me when you do something that's actually interesting, you soulless nerdlinger.

Does this help you sleep at night?

 

[tiedyeddog]

Hard workers within the context of higher education are usually smug, pathetic losers who fill their empty lives and empty personalities with mindless busywork like it's something us 'slackers' should admire and strive toward. Oh, you studied 12 hours a day for an exam? Get back to me when you do something that's actually interesting, you soulless nerdlinger.

I guess we all have to self rationalize our personal failings somehow...

 

[jerseytrash]

Does this help you sleep at night?

Probably shouldn't start commenting on this until you've actually started med school, mister class of 2017

 

[jerseytrash]

I don't think there is much hate going on for people who are hard workers, the hate is for people who are hard workers and then feel compelled to tell you about how hard of a worker they and somehow manage to squeeze their latest accomplishment into each conversation.

Survivor DO

Pretty much this - I had to work pretty hard in some classes more than others and vice versa for plenty of people. The people who irritated me were the ones who would discuss how much they studied + how much research they were doing + how many papers they were working on etc. I don't know whether it was gunning or b/c it was a nervous tic of sorts, but it still annoyed the hell out of me and most others around me.

 

[pdxhopeful]

Pretty much this - I had to work pretty hard in some classes more than others and vice versa for plenty of people. The people who irritated me were the ones who would discuss how much they studied + how much research they were doing + how many papers they were working on etc. I don't know whether it was gunning or b/c it was a nervous tic of sorts, but it still annoyed the hell out of me and most others around me.

Exactly. We're pretty much all hard workers or we wouldn't have chosen a path that involves a minimum of 7 years of postgrad training, 80+ hour weeks, etc. People who only seem to talk about one thing are boring and often anoying, whether that one thing is med school or their exercise regimen or their SO.

 

[mcloaf]

Probably shouldn't start commenting on this until you've actually started med school, mister class of 2017

Generally I only read and don't post here. He hasn't even taken the MCAT yet, however, and his post was hardly specific to current allopathic students.

Cool down.

 

[adr328]

I only dislike hard work when it results in friends being lamer on the weekends than I would like to be. Realizing that this is selfish, I usually keep my objections (peer pressure) to a minimum.

 

[45408]

Hard workers within the context of higher education are usually smug, pathetic losers who fill their empty lives and empty personalities with mindless busywork like it's something us 'slackers' should admire and strive toward. Oh, you studied 12 hours a day for an exam? Get back to me when you do something that's actually interesting, you soulless nerdlinger.

Does this help you sleep at night?

👍

Probably shouldn't start commenting on this until you've actually started med school, mister class of 2017

Why?

 

[VenusinFurs]

I won't speak for other fields because I'm not in them, but why do people in the medical field (esp students but not just students) hate on people who work hard? Not just studying-wise, but people who want to work hard even after residency?

As has been said before, they probably just feel bad that they are opting for an "easier" path. But letting other people's choices make you feel bad about yourself is stupid.

 

[circulus vitios]

I guess we all have to self rationalize our personal failings somehow...

And I guess others have to rationalize seeing their first real-life human genitalia in the cadaver lab.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Here's a news flash: unless you're exceptionally brilliant, you're going to work hard in med school. You're going to work really hard. Obviously, there are varying degress of "really hard," but we're all in for an intense 3.25 years.

I will say, though, that the type of people who study and/or work at all times and I typically don't get along all that well. That's just not something I can relate to at all. I scrapped desperately for every minute of free time I could muster during med school. Spending that time on more school sounds atrocious. Ditto that for residency.

 

[Textbookversion]

This is actually a widely talked about topic historically in economics. It first become prominent when industrialization kicked in.

Basically, if one guy starts working hard making widgets, everyone else has to keep up or management starts firing people. But if everyone works at a medium pace, no one gets too exhausted and everyone keeps their job.

You should look into it if you are bored some time. There are all kinds of different management concepts about "how do I get them to make the most widgets." The guy who is famous for starting this area of management thinking started off in a plant that required physical labor, picked the two strongest guys and paid them a massive bonus to see how many things they could produce in one day. Then he set the bar for production at that value >.>

A similar principal applies here. If everyone worked at the level required to pull 85's and a 220 on step 1 no one would really be worse off. That is a perfectly good foundation for residency and everyone's patients would be just fine. More importantly, everyone would have a much better work life balance. But working harder ups the ante. Suddenly to compete and keep up you've gotta honor your classes, and pull a 240+ to get your desired competitive specialty,

And people in medicine take it to absurd extremes. So yeah, someone else working harder is a direct threat to the well being of the group. Ergo, why it becomes stigmatized.

 

[Kaputt]

And I guess others have to rationalize seeing their first real-life human genitalia in the cadaver lab.

I can tell you're going to make lots of friends in med school

 

[tiedyeddog]

And I guess others have to rationalize seeing their first real-life human genitalia in the cadaver lab.

Wait, are you even a medical student yet?

 

[45408]

Wait, are you even a medical student yet?

Don't think so.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Don't think so.

Ah, that explains it. Maybe he should stick to preallo until he sees his first cadaver genitals in the anatomy lab.

In all serious, being a hard worker is seen as a good thing in the medical community. You're not going to get knocked for it if you stay humble.

 

[circulus vitios]

Wait, are you even a medical student yet?

Being a striver nerd is unique to medical school?

 

[tiedyeddog]

Being a striver nerd is unique to medical school?

Yes.

 

[MilkmanAl]

More importantly, everyone would have a much better work life balance.

Actually, half of students would have a much worse work/life balance, since that's currently about the national average. Point taken, though, I guess.

 

[Textbookversion]

Actually, half of students would have a much worse work/life balance, since that's currently about the national average. Point taken, though, I guess.

I was setting a maximum bar, not implying that all people would meet it. Nor does my statement taken literally make a lot of sense given that the test is normalized, but the point was that the current competition that the upper third of the class engages in is pretty pointless and deleterious. Basically an arms race of credentials.

 

[VenusinFurs]

Actually, half of students would have a much worse work/life balance, since that's currently about the national average. Point taken, though, I guess.

This would be true if number of hours worked always correlated directly with test scores/ grades.

 

[IJL]

Work smarter, not harder.


And if you can't work smarter... well then I'm sorry

 

[Instatewaiter]

I won't speak for other fields because I'm not in them, but why do people in the medical field (esp students but not just students) hate on people who work hard? Not just studying-wise, but people who want to work hard even after residency?

This is really just an issue for students. This goes away in residency. Peope start hating when they have to pick up their colleagues' slack if their colleagues are lazy.

 

[45408]

This is really just an issue for students. This goes away in residency. Peope start hating when they have to pick up their colleagues' slack if their colleagues are lazy.

What would you do if one of your fellow residents decided to come in on his/her days off to round on his patients or stay late for every single case/procedure? Might make some of you guys look bad for not being so eager...

 

[VenusinFurs]

What would you do if one of your fellow residents decided to come in on his/her days off to round on his patients or stay late for every single case/procedure? Might make some of you guys look bad for not being so eager...

In theory if you're doing what you're supposed to, someone else doing what they don't have to do shouldn't bother you.

In practice how often is that going to happen.

 

[circulus vitios]

What would you do if one of your fellow residents decided to come in on his/her days off to round on his patients or stay late for every single case/procedure? Might make some of you guys look bad for not being so eager...

Blanket party in the on-call room.

 

[Wordead]

What would you do if one of your fellow residents decided to come in on his/her days off to round on his patients or stay late for every single case/procedure? Might make some of you guys look bad for not being so eager...

If he's not increasing your workload, not stealing your cases, or badmouthing you what's the problem?

If a guy works harder than me, good for him. Probably deserves chief or whatever position we're in competition for.

 

[45408]

If he's not increasing your workload, not stealing your cases, or badmouthing you what's the problem?

The staff start wondering why you're not as interested as him. Sure wish he was on call tonight instead of you. Don't you care about your education? Kids these days...

 

[Wordead]

The staff start wondering why you're not as interested as him. Sure wish he was on call tonight instead of you. Don't you care about your education? Kids these days...

Yeah, I do. I just fail to see how that actually affects my education if some dude is being superdoc over there. Please educate me.

Does the staff wishing he were on call affect your education in a way I don't see?

 

[Textbookversion]

Yeah, I do. I just fail to see how that actually affects my education if some dude is being superdoc over there. Please educate me.

Does the staff wishing he were on call affect your education in a way I don't see?

I don't know why you are being so obtuse. You are just highlighting your complete ignorance of management/economics literature as well as abject refusal to come to terms with common sense.

You can start reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management and just keep clicking until you sound less uneducated.

 

[Wordead]

I don't know why you are being so obtuse. You are just highlighting your complete ignorance of management/economics literature as well as abject refusal to come to terms with common sense.

You can start reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_management and just keep clicking until you sound less uneducated.

Why on earth are you bringing up theories of MANAGEMENT into a discussion on individual resident perspectives? This is the second time I've seen you bring this up. Dude, nobody cares about your theories of economics and management. Whether or not someone working more than the rest of the group has an effect on GROUP productivity is irrelevant. We are talking about how does one person's work habits affect your learning PERSONALLY.

 

[username456789]

I don't know why you are being so obtuse. You are just highlighting your complete ignorance of management/economics literature as well as abject refusal to come to terms with common sense.

Most of his comments on this thread smack of "kid who never worked an actual job before", so in that context it shouldn't be too surprising that he just doesn't get it.

You can't teach the willfully ignorant.

[Unfortunately, he will likely follow up with a comment along the lines of "but you didn't explain to me how it affects MY education!" The expected level of hand holding through this elementary thought exercise further supports him being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse.]

 

[yehhhboiii]

Why on earth are you bringing up theories of MANAGEMENT into a discussion on individual resident perspectives? This is the second time I've seen you bring this up. Dude, nobody cares about your theories of economics and management. Whether or not someone working more than the rest of the group has an effect on GROUP productivity is irrelevant. We are talking about how does one person's work habits affect your learning PERSONALLY.

It probably has to do with the fact that you're working as a part of a team which is a group and doctors will want to spend more time teaching someone who shows by their actions that they care about that field and want to learn.

 

[tiedyeddog]

The staff start wondering why you're not as interested as him. Sure wish he was on call tonight instead of you. Don't you care about your education? Kids these days...

I want to preface this saying I have hit the clinics yet so excuse my ignorance.

I did work a "normal" job in between undergrad and medical school for a few years. I am naturally a to getter, so I always stayed late and worked my ass off because that is who I am.

From that experience, I don't think most people have such a black and white view of people's work ethics. I believe I was seen as over zealous and overly hard working while those who put in the normal effort were not seen as lazy, only those who put in lower than average were seen as lazy. I think people think more in the sum of averages, they don't automatically set the bar at the hardest working individual. If that we're true, no one would have a job except the workaholics, which we know isn't the case.

In the real world, those who put in a standard amount of effort stay put. They don't get raises and they don't get promotions and from my observation, they are generally happy with that. Those who Putin the extra effort get promoted. Those who put in less get fired, or more realistically stay put like the average worker.

I really think its not as black and white as "this guy works the hardest, everyone else who works less is lazy and doesn't care about education".

Also, those management theories don't apply to medical school in the slightest. The stratification of difficulty it takes to get into differing residency.