Why I hate lawyers...

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Iatrogenic

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June 18, 2004
Many Doctors Practice With No Insurance
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 10:23 p.m. ET

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) -- Dr. Rene Loyola, a surgeon for 29 years, refuses to buy malpractice insurance because of the high cost of premiums. He has put just about everything he owns in his wife's name to protect it from potential lawsuits. The practice, called ``going bare,'' is most rampant in Florida, where health officials say more than 3,000 of the state's 89,000 licensed physicians have dropped their coverage.

Doctors say their only other options were to leave the state, or leave the profession.

But critics, including trial lawyers and patient advocates, call the choice irresponsible, arguing that going bare does nothing to solve the insurance crisis or help legitimate victims of wrongdoing.

``You can't hide all of your assets and you can't hide all of your wages forever. One way or another, we'll find a way to represent these medical malpractice victims because they deserve it,'' said Alexander Clem, president of the Academy of Florida Trial Lawyers.

Doctors who practice without insurance insist that they sympathize with legitimate victims of malpractice, but they say skyrocketing awards from juries and frivolous claims have ruined the system for everyone.

``If I really injure somebody and do something wrong, I want them to be compensated for it,'' said Dr. Alan Routman, an orthopedic surgeon in Broward County who dropped his coverage. ``But I don't want some crackpot jury to decide that I should lose everything I've worked for my whole life because of it.''

A jury in one recent case awarded $63 million for a baby born with severe brain damage after a risky forceps delivery in Palm Beach County. The case ultimately was settled for less, and other such awards are often overturned on appeal. Even so, insurance companies say such cases are forcing them out of the malpractice insurance business. Several stopped writing malpractice policies in Florida in recent years, and others have had to obtain more insurance for themselves to help cover large jury awards and settlements.

As a result, rates are soaring to a point of crisis in at least 19 states, according to the American Medical Association. While the AMA cautions doctors against going bare because it creates risks for them and their patients, the group makes no clear recommendation against it.

Several states, such as Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Colorado, require doctors to have insurance, and most hospitals, even in Florida, require a minimum level of liability coverage. Even doctors who are bare in Florida have to prove to the state that they have $250,000 in assets to cover any claim against them.

``Nobody would elect to practice without insurance if they could help it. It poses a risk to everyone and it just shows how desperate the situation is,'' said Dr. Donald J. Palmisano, president of the AMA.

Florida lawmakers tried to repair the malpractice system last year, but neither doctors nor lawyers liked their solution. Both sides now are pushing amendments they hope to ask voters to approve in November. Doctors want to limit attorneys' fees to rein in frivolous suits and prolonged court fights. Lawyers want to bar doctors from practicing if they've had three malpractice judgments against them, and give patients more access to records of doctors' mistakes.
Until lawmakers fix the soaring insurance rates and set limits on the awards patients and lawyers can reap, doctors say going bare is the only defense against a broken system.

For many, it makes more financial sense.

Routman's policy last year would have cost $94,835 for $250,000 worth of coverage, even though he's had no settlements or judgments against him in 18 years of private practice.

``It's ridiculous to pay that kind of money,'' he said. ``If you had a $250,000 house and you have to pay $95,000 in windstorm insurance, you wouldn't pay it. You'd take your chances and hope a hurricane doesn't hit.''

In comparison, Routman's brother, an ear, nose and throat specialist in Birmingham, Ala., has $5 million worth of coverage and pays $5,000 a year.

``That's what insurance is supposed to be,'' Routman said, coverage for ``an outrageous amount of money, so that the patients who have been injured get something.''

Other doctors, particularly those in high-risk surgical specialties and obstetrics, have no choice but to go bare. Loyola, a general and vascular surgeon, said he was essentially told by insurers that he is uninsurable.

To help defend themselves, doctors are limiting their practices. Some refuse to take emergency room patients because of the complications often involved in treating trauma patients. Others have stopped performing high-risk surgeries.

In Palm Beach County, so many neurosurgeons have stopped treating trauma patients that they have to be transported to neighboring Broward County for care. Similar shortages have been reported across the state.

While doctors blame the trial lawyers and frivolous lawsuits, they acknowledge patients will suffer the most if the system remains broken. Patients can choose to avoid seeing doctors without insurance. All doctors are required to post signs in their offices explaining their lack of coverage and, as an added measure, many ask patients to sign a form to make sure they understand what's at stake.

Patients who sue a doctor without insurance could receive little or no compensation, and they could meet only frustration when they try for a settlement.

Marc Singer of Singer Xenos Wealth Management has advised more than 1,000 doctors on going bare. He said he tells them to consult with a bankruptcy attorney instead of a defense attorney if a claim is made against them.

Then, settlement negotiations begin at zero and go up; rather than starting with an insurance company's deep pockets and working down to a lower figure.

``When a doctor has zero insurance and offers $50,000, all of a sudden, that settlement is acceptable,'' Singer said. ``Lawyers stimulate a lot of litigation. Some of it is legitimate and a lot of it is not. They're either going to take the more modest settlements or they're not going to get anything.''

Florida law protects many assets from legal judgments. Singer said doctors can protect their homes, retirement plans, annuities, life insurance and salaries. Anything more could be given to patients who win legal claims.

But many doctors believe going without insurance is a backward way to fix the problems.

``Doctors are going bare to try to avoid lawsuits and to try to protect their assets. They're not going bare with any idea of how to protect the patient,'' said Dr. Gordon Baskin, who specializes in gastroenterology and internal medicine.

He refuses to drop his insurance, which now costs $34,000 a year. A decade ago, he paid about half that amount for four times the coverage.

``The fact is doctors are human, and doctors make mistakes, and when that happens, how are you going to take care of your patient?'' Baskin asked. ``The only way is if you have the assets and the insurance company behind you.''
 
All in his wife's name? Sounds like divorce time! 🙄 I can smell some divorce lawyer waiting in the wings. 😡

Lawyers motto: Did you drop that bar of soap?
 
A lot of doctors use the tactic of putting everything in their spouse's name. You just have to make sure you REALLY trust your spouse!
 
This is not a good state of affairs. Bull**** cases need to be stopped. For legit cases reasonable settlements need to be reached. 65 mil is insane. If the docs are ****ing up a lot though it might be a good idea to repeal their liscense, but a zero tolerance 3 strikes you're out policy is just mindless.
 
Yeah lets see, three strikes you're out?

How about three high-risk fields that will die almost instantly with such a law: Ob/Gyn, Neurosurgery, and Cardiothoracic Surgery.

Gimme a break, these greedy malpractice lawyers are too busy salivating to the thought of an ambulance going by their office that they can chase. If they want to try to pass this law fine. But when America starts running out of doctors to deliver babies, treat brain problems, and treat heart problems, don't blame the medical profession for the lack of foresight.

Oh, and did I mention, anyone with at least a strike is going to refer all the hard cases elsewhere. And since a lot of subspecialists are really defined in their practice, patients might have to travel REALLY far to get treated.

Also, lets forget about medical innovation. Is it really worth getting a strike for me to try this new procedure that might increase the average lifespan of a specific patient by 10 years but that might not work as well initially? Lets just kill off all academic hospitals and medical research while we're at it? Because really, who wants to get a strike for trying a new procedure or drug that might save lives?

I have an application for three strikes, how about if some greedy-arse malpractice lawyer loses 3 malpractice cases he gets disbarred. Lets see these lawyers put their money where their mouth is, and lets see how they like it.

I think the US can do without a couple hundred ambulance chasers, but the US would be devastated if it lost a couple hundred CT and neurosurgeons and OB/gyns. The fact that lawyers are even contemplating such a move means they have completely lost touch with reality and are simply gunning for $$$ regardless of the public health consequences.
 
Gleevec said:
Yeah lets see, three strikes you're out?...I have an application for three strikes, how about if some greedy-arse malpractice lawyer loses 3 malpractice cases he gets disbarred. Lets see these lawyers put their money where their mouth is, and lets see how they like it.

I think the US can do without a couple hundred ambulance chasers, but the US would be devastated if it lost a couple hundred CT and neurosurgeons and OB/gyns. The fact that lawyers are even contemplating such a move means they have completely lost touch with reality and are simply gunning for $$$ regardless of the public health consequences.

That is one of the most intelligent ideas I have heard on the subject. 👍
 
Wha --? Lawyers gunning for money with no regard for the consequences?! I -- I ...I had no idea!!! Damnit! When did this all start? Why was I not informed? 😉
 
Did you hear that some doctors are refusing to treat lawyers or their families?

here's one of many articles about it:
USA Today article

I think the only way to fix the situation is to start capping lawyer fees and the jury awards. Or we need to change our legal system into a losers-pay court system (which is what is done in many parts of the world).

What upsets me the most are those people that decide to sue not because they have been harmed but they sue because of the possibility that they can make a quick buck. Most people/companies settle a lawsuit because it makes more economical sense than defending themselves. Also some people in this country need to start accepting responsibility for their own actions (like the man suing mcdonalds-no one put a gun to his head to eat there)...

just my 2cents
 
Gleevec said:
Yeah lets see, three strikes you're out?

I have an application for three strikes, how about if some greedy-arse malpractice lawyer loses 3 malpractice cases he gets disbarred. Lets see these lawyers put their money where their mouth is, and lets see how they like it.

Brilliant idea! 👍 👍
I'm sure they would think it was an absurd idea, go figure.....
 
cgt3477 said:
Did you hear that some doctors are refusing to treat lawyers or their families?

I love that! Brilliant idea!

Did you also know that there are more lawyers in Manhattan alone than in the entire country of Japan?

I don't understand what gives lawyers the right to judge a doctor's medical decision-making. When it comes to patients, I don't understand the lawyers' arrogance that their judgement is superior to that of doctors. Did I mention that I don't like lawyers?

Don't get me wrong, I do think there needs to be a form of regulation and no one can deny that there are bad doctors out there, but judging other doctors and their decisions when it comes to patients must never be a topic in the hands of lawyers. Maybe it could be regulated by an independent medical team of other docs.
 
Gleevec said:
I have an application for three strikes, how about if some greedy-arse malpractice lawyer loses 3 malpractice cases he gets disbarred. Lets see these lawyers put their money where their mouth is, and lets see how they like it.

That's awesome!!! :laugh: 👍 👍
 
QUOTE]I have an application for three strikes, how about if some greedy-arse malpractice lawyer loses 3 malpractice cases he gets disbarred. Lets see these lawyers put their money where their mouth is, and lets see how they like it.[/QUOTE]

I believe John Edwards proposed a system much like the one you mentioned, Gleevec. During the primaries, there was pressure on him to prove that he wasn't going to be a puppet for the trial lawyers (since he was one himself). So he came up with some system where a lawyer gets punished if they bring too many fivolous lawsuits to court.
 
They take 1 bar exam and think their intelligent and educated/ because no one puts them under the microscope. They are always ready to say Ill sue you. You talk about ethics, courtesy, morality with a lawyer no such thing.
 
mjl1717 said:
You talk about ethics, courtesy, morality with a lawyer no such thing.

I would agree if you're referring to the ambulance-chasers, but I wouldn't make such a sweeping broad statement since there are so many different types of lawyers. You'd be hard-pressed to apply your statement to any of the lawyers working in public interest jobs.

Disclaimer: I could be either biased or better-educated on the topic (depending on your viewpoint) due to the fact that I'm married to a law student 😉
 
It looks like the problem here is not the lawyers, but the juries. Just as doctors have certain responsibilities with regards to patients, lawyers are bound to zealously represent their client. The system hinges on the fact finder (usually the jury, but sometimes a judge) weighing both sides arguments, coming to a decision, and awarding damages if necessary. If you don't like the decisions or the damages, then blame the jury or the judge.
 
mjl1717 said:
They take 1 bar exam and think their intelligent and educated/ because no one puts them under the microscope. They are always ready to say Ill sue you. You talk about ethics, courtesy, morality with a lawyer no such thing.

Yes, but our bar exam ranges from 2-3 days, depending on the state, and is a lot of essay questions in most states, much more difficult than 3 of multiple guess exams that span less than 3 days. Ohh, and there are exams in law school as well, just like medical school. 🙂 I assure you that just like doctors, tere are lawyers that run the gamut from bad to good in ethics, courtesy, and morality.
 
ken ... as long as juries of our supposed "peers" are making decisions - the doctor will always be in trouble. No matter what the facts are in most medical cases, if there is a handicapped child and a doctor with suspected deep pockets - you can only imagine which way the jury will sway!!!

i think it is silly to compare law exams and medical exams - they are two absolutely different fields with different requirements. The Bar exam is quite tough in fact, from what I hear...

bottom line, settlements have gotten larger over time, more and more insurance companies have lost large settlements and have found that the medical malpractice field is too high risk for them and have pulled out, leaving a few malpractice insurance companies who can not only handle the risk but also dictate costs (because of the change in supply/demand)... It gets even worse because there are quite a few states where the trial lawyers have successfully pushed through minimum limits for malpractice coverage. For example, in Florida - malpractice insurance has to have a minimum coverage of 5 million $.... therefore you know any doctor who has insurance in the state of florida (unless they work for a state university-related hospital, in which case they are covered by different sets of regulations) will be quite a jackpot for lawyers. In fact, most lawyers know that if they present a case to an insurance company, it is usually easier for the insurance company to mail a check for $80,000 than to go to court.... even worse, is that the insurance company (without the approval of the covered physician) can actually settle with the lawyer even if the doctor wants to go to court.

I am sure that there are many good-willed lawyers (especially considering the crap they have to deal with in public-service jobs), but for the most part the Trial Lawyers are keen on making as much money as possible, and they cloak it as being in the interest of the patient.

as far as denying medical care to a lawyer --- that is absolutely permissible. We can deny medical care to anybody we want - unless it is an emergent situation.
 
ken37 said:
It looks like the problem here is not the lawyers, but the juries. Just as doctors have certain responsibilities with regards to patients, lawyers are bound to zealously represent their client. The system hinges on the fact finder (usually the jury, but sometimes a judge) weighing both sides arguments, coming to a decision, and awarding damages if necessary. If you don't like the decisions or the damages, then blame the jury or the judge.

That's sophistry. Like saying, "those con men took them old folks for a ride, but only because them geezers was so stupid! Blame them!" Are lawyers completely at fault for the problems with our malpractice system? Of course not! I agree, 'jackpot juries' (which a lot of lawyers I've talked to refuse to acknowledge exist 🙄 ) are a huge problem, too. But the fact that lawyers are out there trolling for plaintiffs AND FOR THE MOST ******ED REASONS ("Is your child mentally ******ed? It could have been due to a mistake during his birth!") to throw in front of these juries is worse. The juries only know one thing: rich people/corporations need to get their comeuppance. And lawyers take advantage of this mentality, deliberately. Therefore, who is worse? I say, the lawyers.
 
The American public has a way overdevelopped sense of entitlement. We DESERVE monetary compensation if our life isn't perfect. There's always someone else to blame, like doctors, who (because they're obviously rich) can afford to pay large sums to people who do nothing. 🙄 And, once again, Americans have no sense of moderation, so if somebody deserves money, why not give them $63 million?


ken37 said:
Yes, but our bar exam ranges from 2-3 days, depending on the state, and is a lot of essay questions in most states, much more difficult than 3 of multiple guess exams that span less than 3 days.
I think multiple choice exams are way harder than essays. You don't lose points for the entire question if you get one little part mixed up. Besides, boards now have this clinical skills portion where you have to "establish rapport, elicit pertinent historical information, perform focused physical examinations, communicate effectively, and document findings and diagnostic impressions." So the total amount of testing time takes 4 days, it just happens to be spread out a little more.
 
gwyn779 said:
The American public has a way overdevelopped sense of entitlement. We DESERVE monetary compensation if our life isn't perfect. There's always someone else to blame, like doctors, who (because they're obviously rich) can afford to pay large sums to people who do nothing. 🙄 And, once again, Americans have no sense of moderation, so if somebody deserves money, why not give them $63 million?

Agreed. And more specifically, I would add this:

Not only do they assume they deserve compensation, but they assume that ANY BAD OUTCOME was the fault of someone or something out there. Slipped on a sidewalk? In the past, that was because you weren't being careful. Nowadays, it's the homeowner's fault. And nothing is ever due to just error - like, for some reason nobody can just shrug off stuff any more. If you tap bumpers with someone, they will rarely just drive off. Usually, they roll out of their car, clutching at their necks and writhing in pain, at the same time screaming that they are paralyzed and sexually dysfunctional.
 
CyberTammy said:
I personally live in Miami and several of my gynecologists don't carry insurance and I've been to several other doctors that don't as well. I remember reading an article about a year ago (can somebody tell me if I am remembering right...) that said that ob/gyns in Miami have to pay about $200,000+ a year for insurance which is like one of the three highest cities. That's like the average salary of an ob/gyn! This really sucks because I was hoping to do gynecology and I like my home state a lot....

I used to feel badly for people who will lose their physicians, but now I love it. I mean, people can certainly do something about it, but they are content with the staus quo until it affects them personally (*****s). So the faster that happens, the faster something will be done about the situation.

I saw a special on malpractice and they were detailing the situation in Las Vegas, Nevada. Apparently, they had an insurance crisis there, where you basically couldn't even stay insured. All the surgeons were leaving and the trauma centers were closing. Yet malpractice reform was stalled in the legislature (in large part due to a strong trial lawyer lobby). Finally, ALL of the trauma centers closed. Every single one. Within 24 hours, a malpractice reform bill passed. What a coinkidink!
 
ken37 said:
Yes, but our bar exam ranges from 2-3 days, depending on the state, and is a lot of essay questions in most states, much more difficult than 3 of multiple guess exams that span less than 3 days. Ohh, and there are exams in law school as well, just like medical school. 🙂 I assure you that just like doctors, tere are lawyers that run the gamut from bad to good in ethics, courtesy, and morality.


The reason there are so many essay questions is because there aren't any answers - just opinions.
 
ken37 said:
It looks like the problem here is not the lawyers, but the juries. Just as doctors have certain responsibilities with regards to patients, lawyers are bound to zealously represent their client. The system hinges on the fact finder (usually the jury, but sometimes a judge) weighing both sides arguments, coming to a decision, and awarding damages if necessary. If you don't like the decisions or the damages, then blame the jury or the judge.


Blame the Judge (almost always, a former lawyer) or the jury (given directions by the judge, and charged with following the laws written by (mostly) lawyers)?

Whereever you look for a problem in the legal system, there are lawyers there, directly involved. Like a metastisis
 
gwyn779 said:
The American public has a way overdevelopped sense of entitlement. We DESERVE monetary compensation if our life isn't perfect. There's always someone else to blame, like doctors, who (because they're obviously rich) can afford to pay large sums to people who do nothing. 🙄 And, once again, Americans have no sense of moderation, so if somebody deserves money, why not give them $63 million?



I think multiple choice exams are way harder than essays. You don't lose points for the entire question if you get one little part mixed up. Besides, boards now have this clinical skills portion where you have to "establish rapport, elicit pertinent historical information, perform focused physical examinations, communicate effectively, and document findings and diagnostic impressions." So the total amount of testing time takes 4 days, it just happens to be spread out a little more.


Don't forget board certification - another day or two of tests, every 10 years.
Lawyers just have CE's, iirc. Take a cruise, learn how to screw a client.
 
kinetic said:
That's sophistry. Like saying, "those con men took them old folks for a ride, but only because them geezers was so stupid! Blame them!" Are lawyers completely at fault for the problems with our malpractice system? Of course not! I agree, 'jackpot juries' (which a lot of lawyers I've talked to refuse to acknowledge exist 🙄 ) are a huge problem, too. But the fact that lawyers are out there trolling for plaintiffs AND FOR THE MOST ******ED REASONS ("Is your child mentally ******ed? It could have been due to a mistake during his birth!") to throw in front of these juries is worse. The juries only know one thing: rich people/corporations need to get their comeuppance. And lawyers take advantage of this mentality, deliberately. Therefore, who is worse? I say, the lawyers.


"Deep Pockets" is a legal concept, not a medical one - the lawyers sue the doctors because thats where the money is, not the blame. In medicine you can't treat whats convenient, you have to treat whats really the problem.
 
kinetic said:
I used to feel badly for people who will lose their physicians, but now I love it. I mean, people can certainly do something about it, but they are content with the staus quo until it affects them personally (*****s). So the faster that happens, the faster something will be done about the situation.

I saw a special on malpractice and they were detailing the situation in Las Vegas, Nevada. Apparently, they had an insurance crisis there, where you basically couldn't even stay insured. All the surgeons were leaving and the trauma centers were closing. Yet malpractice reform was stalled in the legislature (in large part due to a strong trial lawyer lobby). Finally, ALL of the trauma centers closed. Every single one. Within 24 hours, a malpractice reform bill passed. What a coinkidink!


Gee, kind of like boycotting trial lawyers - but writ large.
 
I want to offer my somewhat expert advice for you folks. I will preface my comments by saying I have a business background studied healthcare management am currently an M3 (just took boards 2 weeks ago) and my wife is an attorney who specializes in products liability and defends doctors from these lawsuits.

The basic tenets are this: if you carry insurance find an insurer that takes these cases to court (In IL where we are her client is famous for not settling with those crooks) This actually leads to their MDs being sued less often. These lawyers want to settle and get their 30-35% they dont want to have to face a much more talented attorney from a big firm. Most of the ambulance chasers attended some crap Law school and have nothing better to do.

2. If you are a doctor you WILL be sued. Sometimes people sue because they are angry and if you do screw up you better fess up and do your best to make up the mistake. Talk to an attending and ask how they deal with their screw ups. They happen how you deal with them will affect if you get sued.

3. Trial attorneys are the problem but so are Crappy Doctors! We can all admit there are doctors who perhaps shouldnt be practicing. The truth is there are too many attorneys and they have nothing better to do and if they sue they can get a quick settlement and collect their fee. I am sure you have all heard of companys settling because going through the suit would cost them more.

I got a lot more to say on this subject and I think it is safe to say that (im gonna get a little political here) if Kerry picks John Edwards things will get much worse for doctors! I am an independent and I only mentions Edwards cause he made most of his very substantial wealth by suing doctors.
Even before John Edward won a Senate seat in 1998, he was well known throughout North Carolina. One of the states favorite sons, Edwards, who is called "Johnny" in his hometown, was a nationally recognized trial lawyer who became a millionaire by winning some of North Carolina's largest damage awards. He was known in his state for his "David and Goliath" trials in which he represented "ordinary Americans'" who sued insurance companies, hospitals, and businesses. Law students flocked to his trials to watch him in action. But very few North Carolinians thought of Edwards as a politician when he, without any political experience or hitherto evident interest, announced his candidacy for the 1998 Senate election and ultimately defeated Lauch Faircloth, the incumbent Republican.

In 1985, Edwards sued on behalf of a six-year-old girl who had suffered brain damage when she was born at Pitt Memorial Hospital in Greenville, N.C. At trial, he won a $6.5 million award on her behalf, the largest malpractice award in the state's history to that point. In 1993, Edwards left Tharrington, Wade, and Hargrove and went into personal injury law. Along with David F. Kirby and C. Mark Holt, he founded Edwards & Kirby, L.L.P., where he achieved his most stunning successes. In 1997 he won two landmark cases with judgments that totaled more than $50 million. In September, Edwards won a $23 million dollar verdict for the parents of a baby who was born with severe brain damage, which was due to the doctor's negligence and in January, he won $30.9 million in awards and settlements for a girl who was seriously injured by a swimming pool drain.

Here is the site where this comes from. http://www.bop2004.org/bop2004/candidate.aspx?cid=9

If this guy is the VP we will all be screwed and we will NOT have tort reform. I welcome inquiries via PM.

Let me reiterate this is not a pro-bush or anti-kerry thing. THIS IS an anti-Edwards thing. I know this political business is senstive to some.
 
I agree - Edwards is a huge threat to physicians and health care for Americans.

The BS cases of his for brain damaged children have resulted in a huge increase in the number of c-sections at the slightest indication of fetal distress, resulting in complications for both mother and child. And, the rate of CP and other brain injuries hasn't changed one bit.

He also lacks the courage of his convictions - he blew off many cases because he didn't think he could win the million dollar verdicts his livelihood depends on. Not that they weren't as credible cases, just not as profitable.

When I think of a slimey a-hole lawyer, guess who's picture pops up (No, juddson, not you).
 
ken37 said:
Yes, but our bar exam ranges from 2-3 days, depending on the state, and is a lot of essay questions in most states, much more difficult than 3 of multiple guess exams that span less than 3 days. Ohh, and there are exams in law school as well, just like medical school. 🙂 I assure you that just like doctors, tere are lawyers that run the gamut from bad to good in ethics, courtesy, and morality.
We only have 3 days of licensure testing?

Let's see...

Step I - 1 day
Step II - 1 day
Step IIb - 1 day
Step III - 2 days
Oral Board Exam - 1 day
Written Board Exam - 1-2 days

Maybe I'm not doing the math correctly, or are you counting days as entire 24 hour periods? If that's the case, then yea, with some exams approaching 10-12 hours per day, it could be just 3 days.
 
The lawyer fella that posted this is hilarious. I saw my wife studying for her bar exam and I can guarantee you this she will tell you how much more difficult the boards are. They are much more draining and stressful. All you have to do is PASS the Bar they dont even report scores unless you fail. To be honest if all I had to do was pass the test I wouldnt be as worried. As far as the exam being two days it was very hard for her but you know her Law school curriculum left her totally unprepared for the bar (the top schools dont teach to the test but rather are more philosphical in nature). That being said she took a standard bar prep class and passed the stupid test. Lawyers are overpriced jokes. Just to toot her horn she has published 2 papers in major law journals one on genetic enhancement and another on telemedicine reimbursement. I proofread the science and she teaches me the law.
 
Yes, settlements, have gotten too large, but the solution isn't blaming the lawyers or putting in malpractice caps. There are some situations where a capped award isn't enough to punish a doctor for his/her malfeasance. I'm sure everyone can think of at least a couple of egregious cases where a doctor should be sued out of existence, but most doctors will respond that these cases are quite unusual. Yes, that may be true, but so are $50 million dollar awards against doctors. In fact most awards the people throw around high numbers on are actually steeply reduced in the appeals process.

Similarly, the poster who says that all trial lawyers are out for money is just plain wrong. Most trial lawyers work awfully long hours (80-100 hours per week is not at all unusual), and certainly deserve a reasonable compensation. Furthermore, for every case they win big on, most likely they had 5-10 that they barely broker even on. Certainly, most good trial lawyers earn a very good living, but considering the hours that they work, they aren't that well compensated. Lawyers that I know that do trial work do it because they believe in it. Certianly, there are a few assembly line malpractice firms that settle every claim, meritorious or not, but they wouldn't have any success without the doctors that testify as expert witnesses on their behalf. Why don't the medical associations try reviewing some of these witnesses and pulling their licenses if necessary. Also, why is it that a very few num,ber of doctors make up a large percentage of malpractice claims, yet they never seem to lose their license? Instead of whining about the lawyers, it might be time for the doctors to clean house first. Certainly, both professions have a few bad apples that need to be cleaned out.


In response to Kinetic, again I say, "Blame the juries!" If not, then, "Blame the voters!" Every profession is bound to follow the rules and responsibilities of being a member of that profession, yet you say that lawyers are to blame for following their ethical responsibility to zealously represent their clients? I think it's idiotic that terminally ill people cannot choose to euthanize themselves, and many doctors also believe that this should be a choice for the patient, yet almost none will help you because of the laws and the professional rules that bind them. I don't run around like a little AMA pull string doll saying "Blame the doctors!", but instead work towards changing the laws and the rules (although being in Texas I don't expect any rational thinking coming from lawmakers here any time soon). If you don't like the system, you can whine, or you can work towards changes. The rules as they are now, should be more strictly enforced against doctors and lawyers (and others as well), and the laws and regulations should be fine tuned to help the malpractice issue.

I am a cynic about all of the lobbyists and special interest groups, but I still have to think that there are ways to change the current situation. How about if doctors would make a list of "jackpot jurors" and refuse to treat them? Maybe all visits could have a malpractice premium surcharge added onto the bill? I certainly don't disagree that doctors should not have to treat lawyers nonemergently if they don't like, but making a statement or a stand that would affect more people is more likely to change the public sentiment.
 
The lawyer fella that posted this is hilarious. I saw my wife studying for her bar exam and I can guarantee you this she will tell you how much more difficult the boards are. They are much more draining and stressful. All you have to do is PASS the Bar they dont even report scores unless you fail. To be honest if all I had to do was pass the test I wouldnt be as worried. As far as the exam being two days it was very hard for her but you know her Law school curriculum left her totally unprepared for the bar (the top schools dont teach to the test but rather are more philosphical in nature). That being said she took a standard bar prep class and passed the stupid test. Lawyers are overpriced jokes. Just to toot her horn she has published 2 papers in major law journals one on genetic enhancement and another on telemedicine reimbursement. I proofread the science and she teaches me the law.

Wow, you are the master of the inane, as it's pretty f**king obvious that a medical exam would be harder to a lawyer than a law exam would be. Likewise, a bar exam would be harder for a medical student than a medical board would be. However, since your wife says it's so, I'll just have to blindly believe it, especially since she's published (what law student isn't, lol?). I've seen Step I qbank questions, and they are certainly hard, but in a completely different way than the bar exam. As a previous poster says, it's ridiculous to compare the two professions, but people keep throwing BS out like it's fact, which is pretty hard not to respond to.

Also, it certainly depends on the state, but there is always 1 day of multistate multiple choice questions, and generally 1/2 day of procedure, 1 day of state essays, and another 1/2 day of ethics. Good schools don't teach the actual laws of that state, but rather how to think like a lawyer, so most graduates end up taking a 6-8 week class that meets maybe 50-60 hours a week, and studying at home on top of that.

Maybe your wife found the Podunk state bar exam to be easy, but tell her to try one of the hard states. In Cali, sometimes less than half of the takers actually pass the bar exam and get licensed. These are people that have already been to college and 3 years of law school, so I don't think that they are idiots, and I guarantee you that it is one unnerving state to get licensed in.
 
southerndoc said:
We only have 3 days of licensure testing?

Let's see...

Step I - 1 day
Step II - 1 day
Step IIb - 1 day
Step III - 2 days
Oral Board Exam - 1 day
Written Board Exam - 1-2 days

Maybe I'm not doing the math correctly, or are you counting days as entire 24 hour periods? If that's the case, then yea, with some exams approaching 10-12 hours per day, it could be just 3 days.
Well, I didn't know about the last two exams. Are they in all states? Also, isn't the saying that for the step 3, preparation is just showing up with a number 2 pencil?

I don't need to go on any more with this, as I've been watching a firend of mine study for the Step I the last month or so, and I can see that it is difficult. I just wanted to respond to a few of the above posters.

Also, I wouldn't be on this board unless I was planning on going to medical school, and as such I am sympathetic. I just want people to realize that as long as these two professions villanize each other, no progress will be made towards reaching a workable malpractice solution. I already said my peace in an above post, but I want to reiterate that both of these professions need a lot more self regulation. Both professions tend to cover up for mistakes of other memebers of their profession, which only tends to hurt the publics impression of everyone in that profession.
 
kinetic said:
I saw a special on malpractice and they were detailing the situation in Las Vegas, Nevada. Apparently, they had an insurance crisis there, where you basically couldn't even stay insured. All the surgeons were leaving and the trauma centers were closing. Yet malpractice reform was stalled in the legislature (in large part due to a strong trial lawyer lobby). Finally, ALL of the trauma centers closed. Every single one. Within 24 hours, a malpractice reform bill passed. What a coinkidink!

Makes you wonder what would happen if doctors started denying non-emergency health care to politicians and lawyers... oh wait, someone already suggested that and got show down :laugh:

Sadly, nothing is going to be done on this issue until some congressman in one of these crises states loses a spouse or child due to lack of doctors in their area due to malpractice premiums. Unfortunately, politicians dont act until its personally affects them, and since they have so much money, it generally takes quite a while for them to feel the pressures as the common man.
 
nytimes.com
June 20, 2004
Doctor's Testimony Leads to a Complex Legal Fight
By ADAM LIPTAK

Dr. John Fullerton, a San Francisco internist and an occasional expert witness in medical malpractice suits, opened a letter from the Florida Medical Association not long ago. He thought it was a membership solicitation.

Inside, instead, was a complaint from three doctors about expert testimony he had given for the patient in a malpractice case against them in Tampa last year. The doctors had won, and now they wanted the medical association to punish Dr. Fullerton for what they said were his "erroneous opinions."

Dr. Fullerton filed his own lawsuit last month in Tallahassee, saying the doctors and the association had libeled him. Legal experts say the suit is the first to use a libel claim to challenge charges made in a medical disciplinary proceeding concerning expert testimony.

The dueling disputes have a question in common: Should medical groups have the power to discipline doctors for their expert testimony? Medical groups say they can help weed out incompetent and dishonest experts. Plaintiffs' lawyers say the groups' real goal is to silence doctors who testify for plaintiffs.

And legal experts say the case in Florida shows that the entire malpractice system has gone off the rails.

"It's something out of Dickens," said Philip K. Howard, the chairman of Common Good, a group advocating changes to what it calls the nation's lawsuit culture. "Why don't these doctors sue back and complain about the complaint? This spins out into the stratosphere, as each person complains about the other person and America descends into a kind of M?bius strip where everyone complains about everything."

Several medical societies have created tribunals to consider complaints that expert testimony by their members was substandard.

"It's picking up steam," said Russell M. Pelton, a Chicago lawyer who set up and oversees the oldest such tribunal, started in 1983 by the American Association of Neurological Surgeons. At least a half-dozen other groups have followed suit and a dozen more are considering the issue, he said. Doctors found at fault in such proceedings have been suspended by the groups and expelled, opening them to attacks on their credibility.

"It's a worthwhile way to level the playing field and make sure that expert testimony on both sides is fair and accurate," Mr. Pelton said.

The three Florida doctors, in their letter to the medical association, claimed that Dr. Fullerton had "presented false testimony and false theories about stroke in the hope to prove negligent medical care in an 82-year-old diabetic with previous strokes who suffered a stroke despite appropriate medical care." His testimony, they said, "was for the sole purpose of propagating a frivolous lawsuit for financial gain."

Action by the medical association was needed, the doctors concluded, "to prevent the medical profession from being terrorized in the future by similar 'experts.' "

Dr. Fullerton said he was stunned by the letter, and then outraged.

"These are intimidation tactics," he said. "Medical malpractice is being targeted right now. Plaintiffs' experts are being scapegoated in the process."

In his suit, Dr. Fullerton said the association and the three doctors had not only libeled him but also damaged the commercial value of his expert testimony and engaged in witness intimidation and racketeering.

Jeff Scott, a lawyer with the medical society, declined to comment on the disciplinary proceeding against Dr. Fullerton, which remains pending, saying it was confidential. But he expressed confidence that the medical association would prevail.

"When we first embarked on this program," he said, "the question was not if there was going to be litigation but when. Any time you throw light on something people want to keep in the dark, they head for the courthouse."

One of the doctors who complained to the association, Dr. Jonathan B. Warach, said: "What we did was absolutely appropriate, and we did nothing illegal or unethical. When this is over, we will be viewed as heroes by the medical profession."

The other two doctors, Dr. Joseph O. Krebs and Dr. Pravinchandra C. Zala, did not respond to messages seeking comment.

John Vail, one of Dr. Fullerton's lawyers, said the doctors' letter to the association was riddled with libelous statements.

"He's accused of a felony - perjury," Mr. Vail said. "They invoke the language of terrorism, which is patently ridiculous. It's amazing that some of our best-educated professionals would engage in essentially playground kind of conduct."

Dr. Fullerton is licensed in both California and Florida, but he is not a member of the Florida Medical Association. The association thus has no power to do more than criticize him in a written opinion.

Even so, Dr. Fullerton said, the very existence of the complaint has already damaged his ability to give expert testimony.

"I have a kind of scarlet letter on my forehead," he said.

That has financial consequences, Mr. Vail said. "His market value as an expert has been diminished because he can be questioned about the existence of this thing."

Dr. Fullerton declined to estimate the complaint's financial impact or to say how much he charges, though he said he devoted about 10 percent of his time to work as an expert, on behalf of both plaintiffs and defendants. And he defended the role expert testimony plays in malpractice cases.

"Real medical malpractice goes on, and it's up to doctors to ferret it out when it occurs," he said. "At the end of the day, you have dueling experts who are each giving opinions about a body of evidence within a case. The judge and the jury have the ability to make the right determination."

In the malpractice case in Tampa, the jury rejected Dr. Fullerton's view that the three doctors were negligent in failing to prevent the plaintiff's stroke.

Mr. Vail, who is with the Center for Constitutional Litigation, which often represents the Association of Trial Lawyers of America, said he had asked two independent experts to review Dr. Fullerton's testimony.

"They said it's sharp and right up to date in the literature," he said. "It's wholly upstanding and mainstream."

Betsey T. Herd, a Tampa lawyer who represented the plaintiff in the malpractice suit, said she was impressed by the testimony.

"Dr. Fullerton went through what I thought was one of the best examinations I have ever seen an expert give," Ms. Herd said.

Lawyers for the defendants in the malpractice case either did not return calls or said they did not remember Dr. Fullerton's testimony.

The libel case may turn on whether the complaining doctors have the same sort of immunity from suit that witnesses have when they testify at trials.

Mr. Scott said state and federal laws, in an effort to encourage candid discussions in peer review proceedings, protected those involved from lawsuits like Dr. Fullerton's. Mr. Vail disagreed, saying that what protections there are do not apply to communications like the doctors' complaint.

Mr. Howard of Common Good said that the three sets of disputes - the medical malpractice suit, followed by the disciplinary action, followed by the libel suit - illustrated what was wrong with the justice system generally. "It's literally a kind of perpetual-motion machine," he said.

Mr. Howard said specialized medical courts, which do not use juries and rely on court-appointed experts, would solve many problems conventional expert testimony produced.

"We're asking lay jurors to decide which expert is more credible," he said. "You might as well flip a coin."
 
Geez.

Thats why medmal suits need to have independent panels of "experts", rather than hired guns (on either side).
 
Ken37, you are obviously a complete an utter *****.My wife went to University of Chicago (the #6 law school in the country). Tell me if you agree with this: the lawyers that go after the doctors are the lowest on the totem pole. They are usually the ones that go to the crappiest law schools and if they dont they graduate at the bottom of their classes. While I agree there are a few of these guys who probably have half of a brain you would be the biggest putz in the world if you didnt realize that these guys are pure scum. I would love it if they limited the number of lawyers in this country much in the same way they do doctors. While I am sure you were the stud of some 4th tier school your inability to attend a better law school shows enough about your mental capacity. Becoming a lawyer is a complete joke. Three years of school and lets be honest the third yr is a complete joke. So in essence your bar exam covers 2 full years of education. When people are taking step 3 they are being tested on over 5 years of material. In addition, to your point about a Podunk state, I am currently in Illinois and will be getting out of dodge ASAP to go back to somewhere warmer. That being said passing the bar here isnt all that easy. I will also say that her classmates had no problem passing Cali or NY (reputedly the 2 toughest). Just out of curiousity why dont you fill us in on what publications you are published in? Yeah thought so.. those journals... uh uh disappeared?

What makes me laugh is people like you who think they have an iota of an idea of what we go through. Medical students study harder and get this... are smarter on average than attorneys (I can explain if you wish).

I just want people to realize that as long as these two professions villanize each other, no progress will be made towards reaching a workable malpractice solution.
Are you kidding me? You must be either fresh out of undergrad or have been kidnapped by Trial Attorney Aliens.. How is it that they should work together when they represent different sides of fence and trial attorneys make their living chasing medical errors (which in some cases arent errors but rather bad outcomes).

Do all current and future MDs a favor, dont go to med school it will be too easy for our high priced attorneys to make you look like the ***** you are when you come chasing after us.
 
Ken, I see you go to texas.. Good for you. Not too shabby a school but nothing top notch either. #15 according to the USnews and world report. So since you are obviously a stellar student I am wondering where your articles have been printed. I think someone like you is all talk and no action. If you were to spend a day in the shoes of a doctor and not "watch them study" you would have a better idea. Let me clear up some facts. Roughly 1/3 of all suits against doctors win an award and the awards average around 8-900K. You say that these awards arent enough and that doctors should be punished more severely? Maybe you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Do you think one mistake should ruin a persons whole career? Because in essence thats what you are suggesting. I cant even tell you how many times I talk to these lawyer types and they admit that they or a partner in their firm commited malpractice. The difference is it is much easier to hide your mistakes as an attorney. I cant even explain how funny your comments have been and how ill informed you are about all of these things and then you claim you want to go to med school? Please... Read up and learn about these topics before you come back on these forums and post your misinformation. :meanie:

One more question.. how about a losers pays system? I would be all for that.. Of course the loser should be the attorney and you know what else.. how about we cap their take the the higher of 10% or $250/ hour when they win. All too often they collect money with little work and screw over the people you claim they want to help.

Finally, you need to get your facts straight trial attorneys dont work 100 hour weeks. You are continuing to show off your complete ignorance. Please do us all a favor and next time you sit there in Texas ready to type something make sure you arent spewing pure BS. :laugh:
 
ken37 said:
Also, I wouldn't be on this board unless I was planning on going to medical school, and as such I am sympathetic. I just want people to realize that as long as these two professions villanize each other, no progress will be made towards reaching a workable malpractice solution. I already said my peace in an above post, but I want to reiterate that both of these professions need a lot more self regulation. Both professions tend to cover up for mistakes of other memebers of their profession, which only tends to hurt the publics impression of everyone in that profession.

The difference is, doctors generally take 100% of all cases (which is patently true if you are an ER doc), while malpractice lawyer scum turn away those individuals who are 1) too poor to cover costs in case the jury sees through the lawyer's lies or 2) who have a compelling sob story the lawyer can use to squeeze every drop out of the hospital, regardless of actual malpractice.

Aside from the self-selection lawyers use on their cases, lawyers are much better able to hide their failures than doctors are. A lawyer gets paid to sue doctors, regardless of the outcome. Doctors lose income while they have to defend themselves in court... notice the asymmetry? Malpractice lawyers BENEFIT from lawsuits, no wonder they do it so much. You think they're going to self-regulate? Gimme a break. Legal ethics is an oxymoron for medmal lawyers. Doctors do have a form of self-regulation, whether it be M&M boards or state certification boards, and yes, doctors have been punished by those boards.

Basically, there is going to be a huge standoff at some point between doctors and malpractice lawyers. Who knows over what? A famous politician losing his child to an accident because all the ERs in the area closed? Perhaps a major city will lack enough OB/Gyns to deliver babes? Or perhaps we will have the Las Vegas trauma shutdown, but this time in a major media market, say, Philadelphia?

And I think when the residents of a state are forced to decide to choose between the two, lets just say Im glad I will have some truly socially beneficial skills to offer along with my colleagues.
 
Gleevec said:
And I think when the residents of a state are forced to decide to choose between the two, lets just say Im glad I will have some truly socially beneficial skills to offer along with my colleagues.

Either I'm stupid or there's a word added/missing here (or a fun combination of both). What does this mean?
 
The difference is, doctors generally take 100% of all cases (which is patently true if you are an ER doc),

Kind of off the topic but I think we should also remember that many doctors especially those in the ER, Ob/Gyns have to make rapid decisions without having all the facts in order. These doctors have to use their clinical judgement to make a decision. Lawyers on the other hand can do their Lexis-Nexis and Westlaw searches to see how to proceed. If I could look up every question I had prior to having to proceed the process would be much easier and mistakes could almost be eliminated. But when a doctor has 5 seconds to make a decision errors are bound to happen.

A quick story from my experience, when I was taking Path I had to see an autopsy demonstration, it turned out it was for a fetus. The story was that a 17 y.o. girl miscarried and wanted to know why so that she could sue her doctor. Well the reason for the miscarriage was that she had done cocaine which caused the placenta to rupture. She didnt care so much about what happened or more importantly what she did to the baby she wanted to know if she could make a quick buck.
 
RXFudd,

This isnt an english forum. I guess he could have been a little more clear. I think you still understand the point he was trying to get across.
 
Ive read in the above posted article that lawyers say that doctors shouldnt complain about lawsuits because doctors also sue people (in the case in the article the suit was in reference to a car accident).
That is one of the funniest things Ive read in a while. Lawyers cant take it when their own methods are used against them.
All in all, Id say physicians do everything in our power to stop the abuse we are exposed to. Dont treat lawyers who are involved in malpractice suits, dont treat their families, dont treat patients who sue more than once. None of this is unethical, simply because we are trying to be able to provide care for more patients by staying open. I say also hit them where it hurts...a lawyer looses a case... sue him/ her for slander. Your reputation was hurt... propose and try to get passed into law a piece of legislation a law that says if a suit is lost, the lawyer, not the patient, pays for all expenses on both sides.
Physicians have a right to defend themselves in any and all ways that are available.
there should be no problem with blacklisting patients and lawyers if needed in order to protect out own investment in ourselves and the future care of our patients.
 
EctopicFetus said:
RXFudd,

This isnt an english forum. I guess he could have been a little more clear. I think you still understand the point he was trying to get across.

I don't care about the English, I really don't understand the statement. That's why I said it might just be me and not the way it was worded.

So...what DOES it mean?
 
rxfudd said:
I don't care about the English, I really don't understand the statement. That's why I said it might just be me and not the way it was worded.

So...what DOES it mean?


Hmmm, what did your verbal say? 4? J/K

What I think he meant was that when push comes to shove, and there aren't any more doctors available the people may take it out on the lawyers.
 
flighterdoc said:
Hmmm, what did your verbal say? 4? J/K

What I think he meant was that when push comes to shove, and there aren't any more doctors available the people may take it out on the lawyers.

You don't even want to know. Let's just say I need things explained to me more often than not.
 
EctopicFetus said:
Ken37, you are obviously a complete an utter *****.My wife went to University of Chicago (the #6 law school in the country).

Wow, I can't have anything to say about this because YOUR WIFE went to University of Chicago.

EctopicFetus said:
Tell me if you agree with this: the lawyers that go after the doctors are the lowest on the totem pole. They are usually the ones that go to the crappiest law schools and if they dont they graduate at the bottom of their classes. While I agree there are a few of these guys who probably have half of a brain you would be the biggest putz in the world if you didnt realize that these guys are pure scum. I would love it if they limited the number of lawyers in this country much in the same way they do doctors. While I am sure you were the stud of some 4th tier school your inability to attend a better law school shows enough about your mental capacity. Becoming a lawyer is a complete joke.

Yes, University of Texas is a 4th tier school. Boy, you sure did put me back in my place. Golly Gee, why don't I go chase some ambulances.

EctopicFetus said:
Three years of school and lets be honest the third yr is a complete joke. So in essence your bar exam covers 2 full years of education. When people are taking step 3 they are being tested on over 5 years of material. In addition, to your point about a Podunk state, I am currently in Illinois and will be getting out of dodge ASAP to go back to somewhere warmer. That being said passing the bar here isnt all that easy. I will also say that her classmates had no problem passing Cali or NY (reputedly the 2 toughest). Just out of curiousity why dont you fill us in on what publications you are published in? Yeah thought so.. those journals... uh uh disappeared?

The bar exam covers material that was not covered in school, so I don't really think you can classify it as x number of years. Also, most people from my school didn't have a problem passing NY or Cali bars, because I did go to a good school, but certainly your third hand rumors are certainly more credible. I gotta love ewhen fairly intelligent people don't think before they jump to conclusions as it kind of defeats the point, now doesn't it?

EctopicFetus said:
What makes me laugh is people like you who think they have an iota of an idea of what we go through. Medical students study harder and get this... are smarter on average than attorneys (I can explain if you wish).

More baseless rantings represented as fact. Do you have any data on this? I haven't called one person on here stupid, but was merely presenting the opposite side, and get attacked by untruths and ridiculous rantings from someone who has barely finished 2 years of medical school at Finch? I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to the incoherent rantings of an idiot.


EctopicFetus said:
Are you kidding me? You must be either fresh out of undergrad or have been kidnapped by Trial Attorney Aliens.. How is it that they should work together when they represent different sides of fence and trial attorneys make their living chasing medical errors (which in some cases arent errors but rather bad outcomes).

Umm, no, I finished law school a while back, have been an attorney for 4 years, and have now decided to go to med school. Most trial attorneys wouldn't touch a case that wasn't malpractice, and most malpractice awards are justified. I think the damage awards are more ludicrous that the actual cases. Additionally, insurance companies are so terrified because of the possible damages, that they settle mediocre claims, which only encourages the ambulance chasers to file on nonmeritorious claims. I never argued that there aren't a few disgusting lawyers, just that most of us aren't.

EctopicFetus said:
Do all current and future MDs a favor, dont go to med school it will be too easy for our high priced attorneys to make you look like the ***** you are when you come chasing after us.

Again, I'm trying to follow the reasoning here, but it seems that your statements contradict themselves. You denigrate attorneys then say your high priced attorneys will make me look like a *****? Actually, in truth, that hypocrisy sums up my point nicely.
 
rxfudd said:
Either I'm stupid or there's a word added/missing here (or a fun combination of both). What does this mean?

Oh, I just meant if your town had to choose between a malpractice lawyer and a doctor, it would almost assuredly choose the doctor. And then I jokingly meant Im glad were going to be doctors.

Yeesh, like 95% of my post was correct grammar and one wierd sentence takes over this thread. Its not like I spend much time or proofread these things. 😉
 
EctopicFetus said:
Ken, I see you go to texas.. Good for you. Not too shabby a school but nothing top notch either. #15 according to the USnews and world report. So since you are obviously a stellar student I am wondering where your articles have been printed. I think someone like you is all talk and no action. If you were to spend a day in the shoes of a doctor and not "watch them study" you would have a better idea.

🙄

Wow, I never thought of that. Golly gee, maybe I should see what a doctor should do (slaps self in forehead with surprise).

EctopicFetus said:
Let me clear up some facts. Roughly 1/3 of all suits against doctors win an award and the awards average around 8-900K. You say that these awards arent enough and that doctors should be punished more severely? Maybe you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Do you think one mistake should ruin a persons whole career?

Facts? I don't see no stinking facts? Where's the references? Someone whose WIFE went to the #6 law school in the country should know how to include some sort of reference as to where a reader might ascertain that he did not in fact pull those facts out of his arse.

Also, I don't think that one mistake should ruin a persons career, which it presently doesn't, but I do think that someone should have to compensate the victim if that person negligently/intentionally harmed that victim and caused damages that can oftentimes be lifelong. I do not, however, think that a bad outcome is or should be malpractice. I refer you back to the factfinders - the jury.

EctopicFetus said:
Because in essence thats what you are suggesting. I cant even tell you how many times I talk to these lawyer types and they admit that they or a partner in their firm commited malpractice. The difference is it is much easier to hide your mistakes as an attorney.

Evidently, if those lawyer types are confessing malpractice to you, a lawyer bigot, they must not be too good at hiding those mistakes.


EctopicFetus said:
I cant even explain how funny your comments have been and how ill informed you are about all of these things and then you claim you want to go to med school? Please... Read up and learn about these topics before you come back on these forums and post your misinformation. :meanie:

ditto


EctopicFetus said:
One more question.. how about a losers pays system? I would be all for that.. Of course the loser should be the attorney and you know what else.. how about we cap their take the the higher of 10% or $250/ hour when they win. All too often they collect money with little work and screw over the people you claim they want to help.

I like the idea of a loser pays system. However, your economics needs a little remediation. If a lawyer has less than a 100% chance of winning, he will have to charge more than a base fee to make up for his time and expenses that are spent on cases that either don't pan out and even get filed, or cases that are lost. There certainly are a few, loud, obnoxious shyster lawyers that will screw over clients and do little work, but they are so much more the exception than the norm.

EctopicFetus said:
Finally, you need to get your facts straight trial attorneys dont work 100 hour weeks. You are continuing to show off your complete ignorance. Please do us all a favor and next time you sit there in Texas ready to type something make sure you arent spewing pure BS. :laugh:

Umm, although your wife, a graduate of the number 6 law school in this whole gosh darn country, may be working at some 40 hour a week government job, or maybe she gives the partners a few "extras" to avoid spending too much time at work, many lawyers work 80-100 hours per week. Or maybe I should say successful lawyers. I have seen a lot of BS in this thread, you are right, and maybe it's coming from the keyboard of someone who isn't speaking from first hand experience, but rather 2nd hand knowledge and predjudices. With all of your vehement dribble, I'm surprised your wife actually puts up with you, or for that matter how you put up with a sleazy, cheating woman that "screws people over".

🙄 🙄
 
"A lawyer bigot"? HA HA HA HA!!

Hold on a second ....


BWAH HA HA HA!!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's rich. Not only do lawyers want to act like skeeves, but they get all insulted that people hate them for acting like skeeves.
 
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