Why is California considered such a bad state to be a resident of in terms of medical school applications?

[futureapppsy2]

Just a really large, competitive in-state applicant pool or something else?

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[14_karat]

- Large population = large amount of pre-meds fighting for the same spots
- I think half of the UC med schools are "T30" schools; so they're harder to get into in the first place
- A lot of people, including OOS, want to stay in / move to California

 

[gyngyn]

It is a large, accomplished pool with relatively few seats: https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-11/2019_FACTS_Table_A-5.pdf

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-11/2019_FACTS_Table_A-20.pdf

Only two of the public schools have a stated preference for IS applicants. Together, they only have 200 seats.

 

[deleted1064759]

- Large population = large amount of pre-meds fighting for the same spots
- I think half of the UC med schools are "T30" schools; so they're harder to get into in the first place
- A lot of people, including OOS, want to stay in / move to California

I'd rather pump a well for water in North Dakota than be a premed in California

 

[14_karat]

I'd rather pump a well for water in North Dakota than be a premed in California

Unfortunately, I’m one of those OOS premeds who dislikes their state and is trying to go to California.

 

[RJ McReady]

Yes
I could go on and on about this, but it's a travesty that so many qualified California applicants dont get any consideration from their home state and have to leave for med school. Whereas, just for one example, Texas applicants (with regards to their own state,) have a huge advantage. Just another example of how this process is completely broken.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

college	median gpa	median mcat	TOTAL MATRICULATIONS	IN STATE MATRICULATIONS
Stanford	3.89	519	95	33
U. Cali San Fran	3.85	518	160	133
U. Cali Los Angeles	3.85	517	184	109
U. Cali San Diego	3.85	517	134	115
Keck USC	3.81	517	188	153
U. Cali Irvine	3.83	517	104	89
Kaiser Permanente
Cali U. of science	3.69	513	120	97
U. Cali Davis	3.7	512	123	121
California Northstate	3.69	512	96	87
U. Cali Riverside	3.72	510	72	76

Agree that california is much tougher than Texas to get in as a premed. However, in the recent years with the blossoming of private schools, some of them with huge number of instate students ( USC is 80% instate, Cafiornia northstate is 90% instate, we dont know what Kaiser numbers will be), and some of the UC schools with extremely high instate percentages ( Uc Davis had 2 OOS, UC Riverside had 4 OOS, and even UC Irvine and UC San diego had 15% OOS) , I think it has become easier in recent years, still the toughest in the country, no doubt.

If you look at the lower schools (Northstate, davis, UCR) their GPA and MCAT 50th percentile is not that far off from the national average.

 

[RJ McReady]

If you look at ratio of total CA applicants to CA matriculants, CA is still the most difficult state to matriculate into as an in-state resident.

 

[Zorax]

I disagree with your statement. Because there are so many California premeds, of which many are applying to their state schools, there are many more California premeds being rejected than accepted comparatively to OOS students. The numbers at a glance are misleading.

college	median gpa	median mcat	TOTAL MATRICULATIONS	IN STATE MATRICULATIONS
Stanford	3.89	519	95	33
U. Cali San Fran	3.85	518	160	133
U. Cali Los Angeles	3.85	517	184	109
U. Cali San Diego	3.85	517	134	115
Keck USC	3.81	517	188	153
U. Cali Irvine	3.83	517	104	89
Kaiser Permanente
Cali U. of science	3.69	513	120	97
U. Cali Davis	3.7	512	123	121
California Northstate	3.69	512	96	87
U. Cali Riverside	3.72	510	72	76

Agree that california is much tougher than Texas to get in as a premed. However, in the recent years with the blossoming of private schools, some of them with huge number of instate students ( USC is 80% instate, Cafiornia northstate is 90% instate, we dont know what Kaiser numbers will be), and some of the UC schools with extremely high instate percentages ( Uc Davis had 2 OOS, UC Riverside had 4 OOS, and even UC Irvine and UC San diego had 15% OOS) , I think it has become much easier in recent years, still the toughest in the country, no doubt.

 

[Davidfromcali]

Cali is the worst; I have friends who If they lived in a easier state would have definitely gotten admitted to medical school.

This is honestly a state that can keep you from getting admitted because the state schools are so competitive and that OOS admission is still so competitive because all the other Cali applicants are vying for those seats make the whole process insanely competitive

Look at the average mcat among Cali students who matriculated; it’s ~513

 

[deleted987519]

well at least you got to grow up in California. Can't have it all guys /s

 

[Davidfromcali]

well at least you got to grow up in California. Can't have it all guys /s

Definitely agree; love my state to death🙂

Despite its problems; it’s a wonderful place to live and thrive in

 

[RJ McReady]

I disagree with your statement. Because there are so many California premeds, of which many are applying to their state schools, there are many more California premeds being rejected than accepted comparatively to OOS students. The numbers at a glance are misleading.

How can you disagree when the table doesn't show the stats of or the total number of CA applicants to theses schools.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

The main filterable data that you have from the post that @gyngyn has posted above with AAMC helps a little bit in sorting out the answer in a better fashion.

The mean GPA of california matriculated student is 513 and science GPA median is 3.64 (yes, i know that the UC schools may be doing grade deflation), there are several other states with a higher mean MCAT/GPA for matriculated students on the east coast ( NH, MA, RI, CT ) and some of the west coast are comparable (CO, UT), mainly because of a lack of public schools in these states with in state bias. If you look at the applicant to matricualnt ratio in these states, they are not that different than california. California had 2603 matriculants out of 6228 applicants which is 41% success rate, very similar to the national average.

There are some states where it is much easier to get in--- PR (easiest), NM, WV, MS

 

[PigsHaveWings]

How can you disagree when the table doesn't show the stats of or the total number of CA applicants to theses schools.

California had 2603 matriculants out of 6228 applicants which is 41% success rate, very similar to the national average. However, that is probably not the right ratio to look at.

If you look at the number of IS applicants in california schools to accepted the ratio at UC Davis is 24 and UC San Diego is 24 out of 1000 applicants. surpringly The Ratio at Texas tech is 27, Texas Austin is 12 matricualants out of 1000 applicants, so you could make a conclusion based on that statistics that Texas is as hard to get in for medical school as california, which is not true. When the applicants know there is a huge in state bias, then there will be a lot of applicants applying just to see if they will get in, which makes it a deceptive statisticis.

 

[RJ McReady]

My only point is that there are many more highly qualified CA applicants who get no consideration from their own state schools, because of the lack of spots and the lack of preferential treatment (unlike Texas and other states) where very few or even zero OOS applicants are considered. If these applicants were from another state (say, Texas) many would easily get in.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

My only point is that there are many more highly qualified CA applicants who get no consideration from their own state schools, because of the lack of spots and the lack of preferential treatment (unlike Texas and other states) where very few or even zero OOS applicants are considered. If these applicants were from another state (say, Texas) many would easily get in.

i completely agree with you on that. Most Texas matriculants do get in-state. However, because of that known in state bias, Texas applicants are less likely to match in other schools outside of Texas. So out of 4900 applicants in Texas , only 1700 got in (36%) . most of them likley got in state as you rightly said ( however they had an overall lower success rate than california 🙂), again this ratio as i mentioned earlier is a deceptive statistics.

 

[deleted1064759]

My only point is that there are many more highly qualified CA applicants who get no consideration from their own state schools, because of the lack of spots and the lack of preferential treatment (unlike Texas and other states) where very few or even zero OOS applicants are considered. If these applicants were from another state (say, Texas) many would easily get in.

I think the caveat is that TX applicants who can't get into a TX school have a tough time getting in anywhere else. For that, TX is a double edged sword (but still much better than CA and overall not too bad still)

 

[Goro]

It is a large, accomplished pool with relatively few seats: https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-11/2019_FACTS_Table_A-5.pdf

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-11/2019_FACTS_Table_A-20.pdf

Only two of the public schools have a stated preference for IS applicants. Together, they only have 200 seats.

The wise gyngyn has pointed out that a graduating class of UCLA pre-meds could fill every seat int he CA MD schools.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

The wise gyngyn has pointed out that a graduating class of UCLA pre-meds could fill every seat int he CA MD schools.

no different than any of the other large public universities .

UCLA has 1,000 premeds. U of Florida has 860, and U of arizona has 360, both of them are enough to fill up their respective state school slots and have some left.

 

[gyngyn]

no different than any of the other large public universities .

UCLA has 1,000 premeds. U of Florida has 860, and U of arizona has 360, both of them are enough to fill up their respective state school slots and have some left.

But look at the mean MCAT and gpa in those states (for successful applicants).
...and look at the competition to get into UCLA (compared to state schools elsewhere). UCLA's selectivity results in a high proportion of very accomplished pre-meds.

 

[Idahomie]

Yeah California sucks, but in general the west sucks for in state options. (The only exception is the small WWAMI states.) I think California catches the eye more because of the in state top 30s with mega high stats and maybe because there are more Californians to complain about it, lol.

Overall, the matriculant Californian MCAT average is the highest in the west, but other western states have similar MCAT averages with significantly higher GPAs.

 

[Goro]

but other western states have similar MCAT averages with significantly higher GPAs.

Not really. These are mostly lucky states, very OS unfriendly with the exception of U CO. National median is 512; 3.78

U AZs: 510; 3.77 and 515; 3.81
U NVs: both 509; 3.73
U UT: 514; 3.84
U CO: 513; 3.78
OR H&S: 512; 3.79
U WA: 510; 3.75
WSU: 509; 3.68
U NM: 506; 3.8

 

[PigsHaveWings]

But look at the mean MCAT and gpa in those states (for successful applicants).
...and look at the competition to get into UCLA (compared to state schools elsewhere).

	MCAT	GPA	Matriculants	Applicants	Chance of matriculating
Massachusetts	514.5	3.72	624	1298	48
New Hampshire	514.2	3.72	55	117	47
Rhode Island	514.2	3.77	58	117	50
Connecticut	514.1	3.72	282	615	46
California	513.6	3.69	2603	6228	42
Utah	513.4	3.79	212	632	34
New Jersey	513.1	3.72	873	1934	45
Pennsylvania	513.1	3.74	767	1642	47
Virginia	512.9	3.68	541	1407	38
Colorado	512.9	3.75	300	845	36
Delaware	512.7	3.72	38	101	38
New York	512.7	3.69	1674	3530	47
Oregon	512.6	3.74	205	572	36
Maryland	512.5	3.69	528	1173	45
Vermont	512.4	3.7	56	104	54
Iowa	512.4	3.81	128	368	35
Washington	512.4	3.69	448	1135	39
Maine	512.2	3.7	41	99	41
Indiana	512.2	3.81	379	765	50
Wisconsin	512.1	3.76	373	827	45
North Carolina	512	3.68	537	1322	41
District of Columbia	511.8	3.55	47	103	46
Illinois	511.6	3.71	934	2241	42
Minnesota	511.6	3.74	418	997	42
Nebraska	511.5	3.78	145	309	47
Hawaii	511.5	3.74	101	265	38
NATIONWIDE	511.5	3.73	21869	53371	41
Missouri	511.4	3.8	332	771	43
Ohio	511.4	3.75	825	1794	46
Texas	511.4	3.77	1720	4895	35
Wyoming	511.3	3.78	29	70	41
Michigan	511.1	3.73	811	1974	41
Arizona	511.1	3.77	300	916	33
Florida	510.7	3.74	1189	3493	34
Kansas	510.4	3.78	222	524	42
Tennessee	510.2	3.72	355	857	41
Idaho	510.1	3.78	75	201	37
Nevada	510.1	3.71	140	341	41
Georgia	510	3.71	654	1616	40
South Dakota	509.4	3.74	80	164	49
Alaska	509.4	3.68	41	95	43
South Carolina	509.2	3.74	326	724	45
Oklahoma	508.9	3.79	187	446	42
Alabama	508.8	3.77	265	579	46
Kentucky	508.5	3.77	360	613	59
Montana	508.1	3.74	57	126	45
Louisiana	507.8	3.71	391	869	45
Arkansas	507.5	3.73	178	374	48
North Dakota	507.1	3.8	53	155	34
West Virginia	506.4	3.74	140	247	57
New Mexico	506.1	3.74	126	265	48
Mississippi	503.8	3.77	185	457	40
Puerto Rico	499	3.62	304	636	48

Here is the data table from the AAMC.

There are several east coast states as I mentioned in my prior comment, which have higher MCAT and GPA matriculation mean than california.

There are several west coast states as @Idahomie mentioned in his post which have a lower acceptance rate (due to lack of significant number of instate schools) such as utah, colrado and oregon with a comparable matriculation MCAT/GPA to california

The only thing which is quite evident from the table is that WV,NM and PR are the easeist states to get into medical school if you are a resident.

 

[gyngyn]

For the four states that have a (point) higher MCAT, the percentage that matriculates is disproportionately higher than would be explained by stats, though.
We agree entirely on WV,NM and PR!

 

[Idahomie]

Not really. These are mostly lucky states, very OS unfriendly with the exception of U CO. National median is 512; 3.78

U AZs: 510; 3.77 and 515; 3.81
U NVs: both 509; 3.73
U UT: 514; 3.84
U CO: 513; 3.78
OR H&S: 512; 3.79
U WA: 510; 3.75
WSU: 509; 3.68
U NM: 506; 3.8

I was referring to the data here (Matriculant FACTS). I do agree that individual schools have more forgiving averages.

My biggest gripe is the variability within some state schools. If you live in Utah or Colorado, you only have one shot at getting an in-state acceptance, which is not the case for Californians. Meanwhile, a lower percentage of matriculants end up in state at Utah and Colorado anyway (15.7% and 10.2% compared to 17.3 in California) while also having a higher percentage of applicants not matriculating to medical school (66.5% in Utah, 64.5% in Colorado, and 58.2% in California.) Additionally, the average matriculant stats are similar (California 513.6 MCAT and 3.69 GPA, Utah 513.4 and 3.79, and Colorado 512.9 and 3.75)

My point is that Californians are not alone in their suffering. Utah and Colorado clearly have it bad too. You can make an additional case for Arizona based on the data, and the WWAMI states are weird because UW doesn't give a flying f*ck about stats.

Idaho is ok, but the downside is growing up in Idaho...... so there's that.

 

[PigsHaveWings]

I agree with you. Utah and Colorado are the toughest two states in the country for in state residents based on the AAMC data tables.

 

[Goro]

I was referring to the data here (Matriculant FACTS). I do agree that individual schools have more forgiving averages.

My biggest gripe is the variability within some state schools. If you live in Utah or Colorado, you only have one shot at getting an in-state acceptance, which is not the case for Californians. Meanwhile, a lower percentage of matriculants end up in state at Utah and Colorado anyway (15.7% and 10.2% compared to 17.3 in California) while also having a higher percentage of applicants not matriculating to medical school (66.5% in Utah, 64.5% in Colorado, and 58.2% in California.) Additionally, the average matriculant stats are similar (California 513.6 MCAT and 3.69 GPA, Utah 513.4 and 3.79, and Colorado 512.9 and 3.75)

My point is that Californians are not alone in their suffering. Utah and Colorado clearly have it bad too. You can make an additional case for Arizona based on the data, and the WWAMI states are weird because UW doesn't give a flying f*ck about stats.

Idaho is ok, but the downside is growing up in Idaho...... so there's that.

This illustrates why my DO school can get many MD-caliber students! They'd rather be closer to home on our side of the Missouri, than go to Drexel or GWU.

We used to get some very talented kids from UT, until RVU had to open.

 

[KatsuCurry]

	MCAT	GPA	Matriculants	Applicants	Chance of matriculating
Massachusetts	514.5	3.72	624	1298	48
New Hampshire	514.2	3.72	55	117	47
Rhode Island	514.2	3.77	58	117	50
Connecticut	514.1	3.72	282	615	46
California	513.6	3.69	2603	6228	42
Utah	513.4	3.79	212	632	34
New Jersey	513.1	3.72	873	1934	45
Pennsylvania	513.1	3.74	767	1642	47
Virginia	512.9	3.68	541	1407	38
Colorado	512.9	3.75	300	845	36
Delaware	512.7	3.72	38	101	38
New York	512.7	3.69	1674	3530	47
Oregon	512.6	3.74	205	572	36
Maryland	512.5	3.69	528	1173	45
Vermont	512.4	3.7	56	104	54
Iowa	512.4	3.81	128	368	35
Washington	512.4	3.69	448	1135	39
Maine	512.2	3.7	41	99	41
Indiana	512.2	3.81	379	765	50
Wisconsin	512.1	3.76	373	827	45
North Carolina	512	3.68	537	1322	41
District of Columbia	511.8	3.55	47	103	46
Illinois	511.6	3.71	934	2241	42
Minnesota	511.6	3.74	418	997	42
Nebraska	511.5	3.78	145	309	47
Hawaii	511.5	3.74	101	265	38
NATIONWIDE	511.5	3.73	21869	53371	41
Missouri	511.4	3.8	332	771	43
Ohio	511.4	3.75	825	1794	46
Texas	511.4	3.77	1720	4895	35
Wyoming	511.3	3.78	29	70	41
Michigan	511.1	3.73	811	1974	41
Arizona	511.1	3.77	300	916	33
Florida	510.7	3.74	1189	3493	34
Kansas	510.4	3.78	222	524	42
Tennessee	510.2	3.72	355	857	41
Idaho	510.1	3.78	75	201	37
Nevada	510.1	3.71	140	341	41
Georgia	510	3.71	654	1616	40
South Dakota	509.4	3.74	80	164	49
Alaska	509.4	3.68	41	95	43
South Carolina	509.2	3.74	326	724	45
Oklahoma	508.9	3.79	187	446	42
Alabama	508.8	3.77	265	579	46
Kentucky	508.5	3.77	360	613	59
Montana	508.1	3.74	57	126	45
Louisiana	507.8	3.71	391	869	45
Arkansas	507.5	3.73	178	374	48
North Dakota	507.1	3.8	53	155	34
West Virginia	506.4	3.74	140	247	57
New Mexico	506.1	3.74	126	265	48
Mississippi	503.8	3.77	185	457	40
Puerto Rico	499	3.62	304	636	48

Here is the data table from the AAMC.

There are several east coast states as I mentioned in my prior comment, which have higher MCAT and GPA matriculation mean than california.

There are several west coast states as @Idahomie mentioned in his post which have a lower acceptance rate (due to lack of significant number of instate schools) such as utah, colrado and oregon with a comparable matriculation MCAT/GPA to california

The only thing which is quite evident from the table is that WV,NM and PR are the easeist states to get into medical school if you are a resident.

Interesting table. As of ten minutes ago, I bought the idea that CA ORM was a kiss of death, but from your table, I now think it's not super significant. Harder than average yes, but probably comparable to the other top 10 states in terms of MCAT averages.

Maybe people on here/reddit probably only think that CA ORMs have it so bad because of anecdotal evidence stemming from the fact that there are 3600 CA applicants who don't get in every year. It's probably easy to create a narrative when you see so many posts from CA applicants who didn't get in, while an applicant from Connecticut or Colorado who posts about not getting in might be seen as an isolated incident. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ihave Nonamè]

Are East Coast schools generally open to California applicants or is there a strong preference for those from the East?

 

[Goro]

Are East Coast schools generally open to California applicants or is there a strong preference for those from the East?

MSAR will show you what schools have students from each state.

 

[KnightDoc]

Are East Coast schools generally open to California applicants or is there a strong preference for those from the East?

Almost without exception, schools are "generally open" to candidates from other states (Texas is a glaring exception!), and California applicants are not singled out for discrimination. The issue is that, also almost without exception, schools (both public and private) have a preference for IS applicants, to a greater or lesser degree and for various reasons. This can be confirmed by studying II and A rates at individual schools for both IS and OOS applicants.

As a result, the problem for CA applicants is that there are simply too many of them relative to the number of IS seats available to them, and, after that, they have to deal with an IS bias at pretty much every other school in the country. This makes it disproportionately rough on them. At the end of the day, their matriculation rate is 1.2% below the national average while the mean MCAT of their matriculants is 2 points ABOVE the national average.

THIS is why it sucks to be an applicant from CA, not because East Coast schools are not generally open to them. I'm sure it's more difficult for an East Coast applicant to receive an A in CA than the other way around, but that doesn't help the CA applicant with above average everything who cannot score a single A due to the numbers.

 

[Ihave Nonamè]

Almost without exception, schools are "generally open" to candidates from other states (Texas is a glaring exception!), and California applicants are not singled out for discrimination. The issue is that, also almost without exception, schools (both public and private) have a preference for IS applicants, to a greater or lesser degree and for various reasons. This can be confirmed by studying II and A rates at individual schools for both IS and OOS applicants.

Thanks. I may be ready for a move to the east (from CA).

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Almost without exception, schools are "generally open" to candidates from other states (Texas is a glaring exception!), and California applicants are not singled out for discrimination. The issue is that, also almost without exception, schools (both public and private) have a preference for IS applicants, to a greater or lesser degree and for various reasons. This can be confirmed by studying II and A rates at individual schools for both IS and OOS applicants.

As a result, the problem for CA applicants is that there are simply too many of them relative to the number of IS seats available to them, and, after that, they have to deal with an IS bias at pretty much every other school in the country. This makes it disproportionately rough on them. At the end of the day, their matriculation rate is 1.2% below the national average while the mean MCAT of their matriculants is 2 points ABOVE the national average.

THIS is why it sucks to be an applicant from CA, not because East Coast schools are not generally open to them. I'm sure it's more difficult for an East Coast applicant to receive an A in CA than the other way around, but that doesn't help the CA applicant with above average everything who cannot score a single A due to the numbers.

Any regional biases?

 

[KnightDoc]

Any regional biases?

??? Sure, there are regional biases, but they are not directed specifically at CA applicants. The problem for CA applicants is that there are so damn many of them (FAR more than any other state), and there are 43 states where they don't have an advantage while other applicants do. As a result, they need above average stats just to have a slightly below average acceptance rate. Life is unfair. Anyone who is REALLY unhappy can level the odds by moving to Kentucky or West Virginia. 🙂

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

??? Sure, there are regional biases, but they are not directed specifically at CA applicants. The problem for CA applicants is that there are so damn many of them (FAR more than any other state), and there are 43 states where they don't have an advantage while other applicants do. As a result, they need above average stats just to have a slightly below average acceptance rate. Life is unfair. Anyone who is REALLY unhappy can level the odds by moving to Kentucky or West Virginia. 🙂

CA applicants don’t get any regional favoritism since our neighboring states are instate focused.

 

[KnightDoc]

CA applicants don’t get any regional favoritism since our neighboring states are instate focused.

Understood. They only get regional favoritism in CA and there is a huge imbalance in CA between supply and demand. That's why CA sends more matriculants OOS than IS every year, its matriculants have above average MCATs, and it still has a below average acceptance rate. Just another benefit to go along with the taxes, COL, traffic, fires and earthquakes. But, you do have that great weather! 😎

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

But, you do have that great weather! 😎

Depends on where you are in CA. Try living in sunset district in SF in summer 🙂

 

[DameJulie]

Is this phenomon still true for residency applications?