why is DO now considered IMG for matching in Canada?

[kingston77]

Can someone please explain what the rational was for the residency matching services in Canada to consider DO students as IMG starting recently? I know previously they were on par with American MD so I would like to know what made them decide to make the change.

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[ConfusedChemist]

Too many Canadian grads for the number of residencies. CMGs get first priority. There's not enough money anymore

 

[Medstart108]

If I am to be completely honest I believe its because D.O. schools are expanding, a lot of Canadians are going D.O. and they don't want that added competition. Not that many US M.D.'s currently apply to Canadian residencies so its manageable but they don't want that number to increase.

It has very little to do with quality of education or anything it is simply to do with protecting Canadian residency spots for CMGs.

Obviously if Canada and the US are to maintain reciprocity between their residency systems they can't stop US M.D.'s from coming to Canada as CMGs, its easier to target the D.O.'s

 

[UBC2014]

If I am to be completely honest I believe its because D.O. schools are expanding, a lot of Canadians are going D.O. and they don't want that added competition. Not that many US M.D.'s currently apply to Canadian residencies so its manageable but they don't want that number to increase.

It has very little to do with quality of education or anything it is simply to do with protecting Canadian residency spots for CMGs.

Obviously if Canada and the US are to maintain reciprocity between their residency systems they can't stop US M.D.'s from coming to Canada as CMGs, its easier to target the D.O.'s

As a CMG in training who held DO acceptances and would have gladly went to the US for my training, this is spot on.

Due to different accredditing bodies, it was easy for ontario to block DOs from CMG status. There are alot more Canadians aware of and attending DO programs now instead of other less favourable IMG routes. They didnt want to deal with an influx of DO grads filling up spots and making it even more competitive hah.

 

[UBC2014]

As a CMG in training who held DO acceptances and would have gladly went to the US for my training, this is spot on.

Due to different accredditing bodies, it was easy for ontario to block DOs from CMG status. There are alot more Canadians aware of and attending DO programs now instead of other less favourable IMG routes. They didnt want to deal with an influx of DO grads filling up spots and making it even more competitive hah.

And as an FYI DO is still CMG in BC

 

[deleted744041]

And as an FYI DO is still CMG in BC

...DO is still CMG in Quebec. But, of course, the french test or must have been a Quebec High School grad...

 

[balocger8]

I am an AMG with US citizenship, but failed miserably to match for 3 cycles in row due to poor credentials on USMLE. I would like to see if I could seek a family medicine postgraduate training in Quebec, I speak fluently french because I did my high school in french speaking country. Is there a path for me in Quebec if I take the MCCEE? Hope to pass it with a good score. I would greatly appreciate any suggestion that will help me make the decision.

 

[UBC2014]

I am an AMG with US citizenship, but failed miserably to match for 3 cycles in row due to poor credentials on USMLE. I would like to see if I could seek a family medicine postgraduate training in Quebec, I speak fluently french because I did my high school in french speaking country. Is there a path for me in Quebec if I take the MCCEE? Hope to pass it with a good score. I would greatly appreciate any suggestion that will help me make the decision.

You must be a Canadian citizen or PR in order to apply for positions in CaRMS.

So nope.

Are you truly an AMG or an IMG? Did you fail steps multiple times? We need more information. Surely for FM, there should be some malignant program in middle of nowhere USA that you can get into for FM. That is terrible to hear you went 3 cycles without luck - what more is there to this story? Did your school not help you at all? What have you been doing for the last 3 years?

 

[deleted744041]

I am an AMG with US citizenship, but failed miserably to match for 3 cycles in row due to poor credentials on USMLE. I would like to see if I could seek a family medicine postgraduate training in Quebec, I speak fluently french because I did my high school in french speaking country. Is there a path for me in Quebec if I take the MCCEE? Hope to pass it with a good score. I would greatly appreciate any suggestion that will help me make the decision.

I am sorry to hear about your situation. While I have different news in comparison to UBC2014, the result is the same. As an American MD without Canadian citizenship, you are prohibited from applying to medical schools in Quebec for residency training purpose. It would be allowed, however, for you to apply if you were in your MS4.

What I am trying to say here is that Quebec allowed American MD citizens to apply for its training positions if they are applying in their last year in med school. An already graduated MD student without citizenship is not allowed request for training.

I am assuming here that you are an MD student. However, the above situation also applies to DO since there is no division between MD and DO in Quebec.

https://www.mcgill.ca/pgme/admissio...try-funded/contingent-particulier/american-md

 

[UBC2014]

I am sorry to hear about your situation. While I have different news in comparison to UBC2014, the result is the same. As an American MD without Canadian citizenship, you are prohibited from applying to medical schools in Quebec for residency training purpose. It would be allowed, however, for you to apply if you were in your MS4.

What I am trying to say here is that Quebec allowed American MD citizens to apply for its training positions if they are applying in their last year in med school. An already graduated MD student without citizenship is not allowed request for training.

I am assuming here that you are an MD student. However, the above situation also applies to DO since there is no division between MD and DO in Quebec.

https://www.mcgill.ca/pgme/admissio...try-funded/contingent-particulier/american-md

I've never heard of this before, seems interesting.

Actually, it would seem that the OP WOULD be eligible - it says clearly on the website that to be eligible you must be an MD or DO graduate and have done a prelim year. OR you could apply as a MS4. Either seem to be fine. So the OP would just need to get a prelim year spot... but i wonder if they would simply let OP do it even without prelim year?

Definitely something worth looking into and talking to the source! But of course OP would need a working knowledge of french...

 

[deleted744041]

I've never heard of this before, seems interesting.

Actually, it would seem that the OP WOULD be eligible - it says clearly on the website that to be eligible you must be an MD or DO graduate and have done a prelim year. OR you could apply as a MS4. Either seem to be fine. So the OP would just need to get a prelim year spot... but i wonder if they would simply let OP do it even without prelim year?

Definitely something worth looking into and talking to the source! But of course OP would need a working knowledge of french...

The knowledge of French goes without saying. I just assume since the OP specifically mentioned Quebec, OP must have some knowledge of french. In fact, if OP want to try the route we are presently talking, it would be better if the OP knows some french. It is most often that the French universities that have the most unfilled positions.

One thing that I find a little annoying at time is how fragmented our entire medical system can be. What a province allows in one place can be very different from another province. For example, we have the above situation. Another fact I don't know whether you know about it or not is how Quebec med student apply for training. CARMS is actually secondary in the entire process. In Quebec, first you must apply to each program in each university separately (so, the 4 med schools). Then you went to your interview. Finally, you submitted your rank to CARMS.

 

[balocger8]

The knowledge of French goes without saying. I just assume since the OP specifically mentioned Quebec, OP must have some knowledge of french. In fact, if OP want to try the route we are presently talking, it would be better if the OP knows some french. It is most often that the French universities that have the most unfilled positions.

One thing that I find a little annoying at time is how fragmented our entire medical system can be. What a province allows in one place can be very different from another province. For example, we have the above situation. Another fact I don't know whether you know about it or not is how Quebec med student apply for training. CARMS is actually secondary in the entire process. In Quebec, first you must apply to each program in each university separately (so, the 4 med schools). Then you went to your interview. Finally, you submitted your rank to CARMS.

Thanks to you all for your inputs on my precarious situation, I have called people at McGill university, they told me the consideration would be possible if only I have not put my feet in residency( Contingent Particulier, AMERICAN MD only) and in this case my application might be considered and they will take either USMLE or the Canadian licensing test (MCCE). I don't want to use my usmle results because of my poor scores on each component of the test, So I will have to challenge MCCE in hope to do well on it. They said it's only one test that I will have to take. I did double check with the MCCE official website, it says the test is offered only periodically. Now I am trying to finish up my step 3 b/c I have to pass it before the 7 yrs rule kicks in. I have decided to move in Quebec after taking my step 3 most likely in May, in effort of gaining permanent resident status( prospectively in 2 or 3 yrs), in case AMERICAN MD path did not work the next 2 yrs. If I become a permanent resident in 3 yrs, I will then be able to use CARMS. I think this is the only loophole in the system that is more probable for me. I have tried to brainstorm the possibility of Puerto Rico, the Spanish language is just too much for me to put up with it, in this adult age. My French is as good as my English. The only caveat is, I did medicine in the English. The sad part of my story is my educational loans, I have applied for PA programs in order to have at least a job to sustain my loans, I was bluntly rejected with one of the rejection letters mentioning PA profession is not for failed doctors. I have explored about going to Australia but the process for securing a residency spot is extremely difficult as they are using protectionism for their citizens and permanent resident just like in CANADA and process for coming back to US is almost impossible. I will be trying many possible career alternatives such as Canada Post graduate training( here I know the chance is pretty slim to land a spot but it's a better option than trying ERAS again with no return at the end) and in meantime will reapply broadly for PA programs again in hope one of the programs will overlook my MD degree. If I am accepted in one of the PA program for 2019 class I will return in the US to start and complete the program and help the public at that capacity. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and suggestions, I greatly appreciated it.

 

[UBC2014]

Thanks to you all for your inputs on my precarious situation, I have called people at McGill university, they told me the consideration would be possible if only I have not put my feet in residency( Contingent Particulier, AMERICAN MD only) and in this case my application might be considered and they will take either USMLE or the Canadian licensing test (MCCE). I don't want to use my usmle results because of my poor scores on each component of the test, So I will have to challenge MCCE in hope to do well on it. They said it's only one test that I will have to take. I did double check with the MCCE official website, it says the test is offered only periodically. Now I am trying to finish up my step 3 b/c I have to pass it before the 7 yrs rule kicks in. I have decided to move in Quebec after taking my step 3 most likely in May, in effort of gaining permanent resident status( prospectively in 2 or 3 yrs), in case AMERICAN MD path did not work the next 2 yrs. If I become a permanent resident in 3 yrs, I will then be able to use CARMS. I think this is the only loophole in the system that is more probable for me. I have tried to brainstorm the possibility of Puerto Rico, the Spanish language is just too much for me to put up with it, in this adult age. My French is as good as my English. The only caveat is, I did medicine in the English. The sad part of my story is my educational loans, I have applied for PA programs in order to have at least a job to sustain my loans, I was bluntly rejected with one of the rejection letters mentioning PA profession is not for failed doctors. I have explored about going to Australia but the process for securing a residency spot is extremely difficult as they are using protectionism for their citizens and permanent resident just like in CANADA and process for coming back to US is almost impossible. I will be trying many possible career alternatives such as Canada Post graduate training( here I know the chance is pretty slim to land a spot but it's a better option than trying ERAS again with no return at the end) and in meantime will reapply broadly for PA programs again in hope one of the programs will overlook my MD degree. If I am accepted in one of the PA program for 2019 class I will return in the US to start and complete the program and help the public at that capacity. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and suggestions, I greatly appreciated it.

What are you not telling us?

Also, you can't just "move" to quebec, if you are not a Canadian citizen. That is not how immigration works.

Even if you had very low Step scores, you should still have gotten some interviews at rural FM places. Even IMGs with 200 on STEPS make it.

There is more to this story, but regardless good luck.

One thing about the MCCEE - don't mess it up, its a 1 shot go, you can't retake it. Really make sure you are in a good place to take it.

Even then, i honestly don't think quebec will pan out, just because some potential loophole option appears on paper.

 

[W19]

Thanks to you all for your inputs on my precarious situation, I have called people at McGill university, they told me the consideration would be possible if only I have not put my feet in residency( Contingent Particulier, AMERICAN MD only) and in this case my application might be considered and they will take either USMLE or the Canadian licensing test (MCCE). I don't want to use my usmle results because of my poor scores on each component of the test, So I will have to challenge MCCE in hope to do well on it. They said it's only one test that I will have to take. I did double check with the MCCE official website, it says the test is offered only periodically. Now I am trying to finish up my step 3 b/c I have to pass it before the 7 yrs rule kicks in. I have decided to move in Quebec after taking my step 3 most likely in May, in effort of gaining permanent resident status( prospectively in 2 or 3 yrs), in case AMERICAN MD path did not work the next 2 yrs. If I become a permanent resident in 3 yrs, I will then be able to use CARMS. I think this is the only loophole in the system that is more probable for me. I have tried to brainstorm the possibility of Puerto Rico, the Spanish language is just too much for me to put up with it, in this adult age. My French is as good as my English. The only caveat is, I did medicine in the English. The sad part of my story is my educational loans, I have applied for PA programs in order to have at least a job to sustain my loans, I was bluntly rejected with one of the rejection letters mentioning PA profession is not for failed doctors. I have explored about going to Australia but the process for securing a residency spot is extremely difficult as they are using protectionism for their citizens and permanent resident just like in CANADA and process for coming back to US is almost impossible. I will be trying many possible career alternatives such as Canada Post graduate training( here I know the chance is pretty slim to land a spot but it's a better option than trying ERAS again with no return at the end) and in meantime will reapply broadly for PA programs again in hope one of the programs will overlook my MD degree. If I am accepted in one of the PA program for 2019 class I will return in the US to start and complete the program and help the public at that capacity. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and suggestions, I greatly appreciated it.

If I were you, I would try to pass step 3 and get a preliminary surgery position somewhere in the US... I was told they are not difficult to get... There are many states that will license you after 1-year post grad training as a AMG... However, your job prospect will be limited to county department of health, jail, area of critical need ect... and salary will not be great if you decide to work in a suburb or major city.

Can you also apply for residency in medical genetics, preventive medicine?

By the way, I have friend (IMG) that used the Puerto Rico loophole (non AGCME approved internship). He did not speak Spanish at all when he got there... He got a PR license and is working for the Indian Health System in the state now. Because the Indian Health System is a subsidiary of the Fed, they let you work with any state license... From what he told me, he is getting the average salary of a FM doc + relocation cost and 25k/year of loan repayment. However, most of these jobs are located in rural America.

I think it is something you should consider. You can spend a few months in a 'Spanish country' to learn how to communicate in Spanish before applying to one of these programs... I don't think you need to be fluent. It would not be a bad investment based on your situation IMO... I was told these PR internships are getting hard to get now since so many FMG/IMG are aware of that loophole. BEST OF LUCK!

 

[deleted744041]

What are you not telling us?

Also, you can't just "move" to quebec, if you are not a Canadian citizen. That is not how immigration works.

Even if you had very low Step scores, you should still have gotten some interviews at rural FM places. Even IMGs with 200 on STEPS make it.

There is more to this story, but regardless good luck.

One thing about the MCCEE - don't mess it up, its a 1 shot go, you can't retake it. Really make sure you are in a good place to take it.

Even then, i honestly don't think quebec will pan out, just because some potential loophole option appears on paper.

That is the one thing that terrifies the heck out of me: How an AMG has difficulties with matching to a US residencies. I was told so often by so many people that there must somewhere in US that will just about any AMG if they can get them. As well, I am also nervous of why the OP has low USMLE. Shouldn't an AMG be trained very well and good for the boards? This situation just plainly scares me since I will soon be a DO student at MSU.

Is that USMLE really that difficult to do well in? I was told by many CMG friends of mine that many of them did the USMLE after their MCCE as a backup and afterthought. They made it out to be simple and not that difficult.

Could someone shed some light on this matter? I read many comments on SDN, many of them just like OP made USMLE sounds so horrible. While, at the same time, many of my friends made it sound normal and not worth worrying about. I have never heard such opposing opinions on a single topic ever.

 

[deleted744041]

Thanks to you all for your inputs on my precarious situation, I have called people at McGill university, they told me the consideration would be possible if only I have not put my feet in residency( Contingent Particulier, AMERICAN MD only) and in this case my application might be considered and they will take either USMLE or the Canadian licensing test (MCCE). I don't want to use my usmle results because of my poor scores on each component of the test, So I will have to challenge MCCE in hope to do well on it. They said it's only one test that I will have to take. I did double check with the MCCE official website, it says the test is offered only periodically. Now I am trying to finish up my step 3 b/c I have to pass it before the 7 yrs rule kicks in. I have decided to move in Quebec after taking my step 3 most likely in May, in effort of gaining permanent resident status( prospectively in 2 or 3 yrs), in case AMERICAN MD path did not work the next 2 yrs. If I become a permanent resident in 3 yrs, I will then be able to use CARMS. I think this is the only loophole in the system that is more probable for me. I have tried to brainstorm the possibility of Puerto Rico, the Spanish language is just too much for me to put up with it, in this adult age. My French is as good as my English. The only caveat is, I did medicine in the English. The sad part of my story is my educational loans, I have applied for PA programs in order to have at least a job to sustain my loans, I was bluntly rejected with one of the rejection letters mentioning PA profession is not for failed doctors. I have explored about going to Australia but the process for securing a residency spot is extremely difficult as they are using protectionism for their citizens and permanent resident just like in CANADA and process for coming back to US is almost impossible. I will be trying many possible career alternatives such as Canada Post graduate training( here I know the chance is pretty slim to land a spot but it's a better option than trying ERAS again with no return at the end) and in meantime will reapply broadly for PA programs again in hope one of the programs will overlook my MD degree. If I am accepted in one of the PA program for 2019 class I will return in the US to start and complete the program and help the public at that capacity. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and suggestions, I greatly appreciated it.

You are welcome but please also note UBC2014's comments: Immigration to Quebec, Canada as a whole, is not a simple matter. We have sadly moved beyond the times of just moving between borders freely now. As well, just like UBC2014 pointed out, it would be wise to see this opportunity as a chance rather than a sure thing. I apologized if I may sound insensitive to your situation when it was I myself who brought this situation to your attention.

As well, as you may already knew, McGill is not the only university in Quebec. You could enhance your chances further with the other 3 medical schools in Quebec: Laval, Sheerbroke and UdeM. In fact, I am certain that you will have more lucks with the 3 french universities than McGill since they often have the most unfilled residency positions.

But again, in the immortal words of the Dowager Countess of Grantham: "Never mistake a wish for a certainty", a mistake I have done so often myself.

Now, please do not take this in the wrong way as I, myself, should not throw stone in a glass house. Did you write your comments on your cell phone or without the aid of a keyboard? Your wall of words certainly intimidates me. It is not often that I have seen such run-on sentences.

 

[UBC2014]

That is the one thing that terrifies the heck out of me: How an AMG has difficulties with matching to a US residencies. I was told so often by so many people that there must somewhere in US that will just about any AMG if they can get them. As well, I am also nervous of why the OP has low USMLE. Shouldn't an AMG be trained very well and good for the boards? This situation just plainly scares me since I will soon be a DO student at MSU.

Is that USMLE really that difficult to do well in? I was told by many CMG friends of mine that many of them did the USMLE after their MCCE as a backup and afterthought. They made it out to be simple and not that difficult.

Could someone shed some light on this matter? I read many comments on SDN, many of them just like OP made USMLE sounds so horrible. While, at the same time, many of my friends made it sound normal and not worth worrying about. I have never heard such opposing opinions on a single topic ever.

It happens, not everyone is a good test taker.

Relax.

Good luck with MSU, its a strong school you will be prepared well.