Why is It so Important to Do Residency at a "Good" Place?

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Blitz2006

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Like I know for stuff like IM/GSurg its important for fellowship match.

But what about for guys who don't want to sub-specialize in their residency.

What are the benefits of doing your residency at a "Top 10" place vs. a crappy community hospital in the ghetto?

Apart from obviously being a better trained doctor if you go to a place like Mass Gen, what are the other advantages?

Job Prospects?
Pay?
Location of where you can get jobs?

Or is going to a 'good' residency overrated? If you just want to practice medicine...does it matter then?

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Like I know for stuff like IM/GSurg its important for fellowship match.

But what about for guys who don't want to sub-specialize in their residency.

What are the benefits of doing your residency at a "Top 10" place vs. a crappy community hospital in the ghetto?

Apart from obviously being a better trained doctor if you go to a place like Mass Gen, what are the other advantages?

Job Prospects?
Pay?
Location of where you can get jobs?

Or is going to a 'good' residency overrated? If you just want to practice medicine...does it matter then?

You may get a better training...that really depends though. If you train at HSS for ortho, you will be more prepared for seeing zebras and launching a career in academics, but you probably won't be any better trained for private practice as the guy who trained at some community hospital in the bronx. In fact, you may even have more experience coming from the community center, since you won't be competing with tons of other residents and fellows.

Job prospects are certainly better from a better program, as is location (at least immediately out of residency. Once you are established in the workforce, your prospects are determined more by your skills/work ethic than by your resume). Pay is more or less the same no matter what program you came from (and are determined by location and productivity of your practice)

Honestly, if you just want to practice medicine, it doesn't matter where you train. You will get SOME job out of any program in the country. But in general, most university programs, and many community programs will you just find.
 
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You may get a better training...that really depends though. If you train at HSS for ortho, you will be more prepared for seeing zebras and launching a career in academics, but you probably won't be any better trained for private practice as the guy who trained at some community hospital in the bronx. In fact, you may even have more experience coming from the community center, since you won't be competing with tons of other residents and fellows.

Job prospects are certainly better from a better program, as is location (at least immediately out of residency. Once you are established in the workforce, your prospects are determined more by your skills/work ethic than by your resume). Pay is more or less the same no matter what program you came from (and are determined by location and productivity of your practice)

Honestly, if you just want to practice medicine, it doesn't matter where you train. You will get SOME job out of any program in the country. But in general, most university programs, and many community programs will you just find.

Right, yeah I'm just thinking out loud. Cause I always see these "Top 20" ranking threads of residencies on sdn, but I'm starting to wonder now, if you're not interested in academics....does it really matter?
 
I don't see how it really matters. I'll be doing IM at a community hospital. No fellows to compete with, so I get to do stuff. I know the training will be excellent, because I learned so much there as a student.

At some level, you get out of residency what you put into it. There are so many excellent doctors I've gotten to work with, and they've come from everywhere. Ivy Leagues, Cleveland Clinic, Carribean schools, and foreign medical grads.

You can be excellent coming from anywhere. You can also be awful coming from anywhere. You can't really train someone to be compassionate.
 
I don't see how it really matters. I'll be doing IM at a community hospital. No fellows to compete with, so I get to do stuff. I know the training will be excellent, because I learned so much there as a student.

At some level, you get out of residency what you put into it. There are so many excellent doctors I've gotten to work with, and they've come from everywhere. Ivy Leagues, Cleveland Clinic, Carribean schools, and foreign medical grads.

You can be excellent coming from anywhere. You can also be awful coming from anywhere. You can't really train someone to be compassionate.

I agree 100% with you. But unfortunately in today's climate, if you wanted (a good chance) to get a cards/GI fellowship, you pretty much have to go to a univ. program, right? I'm not saying its impossible from community hospital, but def tougher....
 
I agree 100% with you. But unfortunately in today's climate, if you wanted (a good chance) to get a cards/GI fellowship, you pretty much have to go to a univ. program, right? I'm not saying its impossible from community hospital, but def tougher....


According to the NRMP, program directors value letters of recomm. from people they know (or big names in the field) and research.

Obviously they would love to have someone from a big name school, but that is more of an icing on the cake rather than their main criteria.
 
Yes, but it is hard to find someone from Mass General or Duke who wanted a cards fellowship and couldn't get one SOMEWHERE. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm just saying it IS....
That said, there are plenty of mid-tier type university programs that have very good %ages of people matching into cards and GI, and may even have a better history of matching people into those specialties than some supposedly more prestigious places. Letters of recommendation from someone known to the fellowship program director certainly do help...so does a program director who is willing to make phone calls on your behalf...so does research. Some people at less busy university hospital or community programs might have more time/opportunity to publish a research paper or case report than someone at a ball busting university hospital or huge big city hospital where they are "needed" on wards and in the ICU a lot of the time, and have few cushy electives or clinic months.
 
For IM, most or all of the "top 30" or so places are good sized university hospitals, which often leads to seeing a better IM case mix and/or more sick ICU patients that you might not see at a cushy community program or some small affiliated med program that ships most of the sick ICU players on to a bigger hospital...
But there are so many IM programs that I don't really think you need to limit yourself to 10, 20 or even 30...there is certainly a long list where you could get "good" training, depending on your bent. There is definitely some regional bias in hiring for jobs and fellowship placement, so unless it is somewhere uber-famous like Mass General or UCSF, you might want to do residency around the region where you are thinking of working or doing a fellowship...
 
Right, yeah I'm just thinking out loud. Cause I always see these "Top 20" ranking threads of residencies on sdn, but I'm starting to wonder now, if you're not interested in academics....does it really matter?

First, there are no official rankings for residencies that carry any weight. Im not sure saying top 10,20 etc is meaningful because nobody uses such list, and the top program for eg optho wont be for ortho, etc. It is a specialty by specialty word of mouth kind of thing and can change dramatically year to year as program X loses prominent faculty member Y or program Z gets a new chairman etc. Then there is the dichotomy of the big academic center where there are lots of zebras but often lots of fellows and the residents may or may not end up well trained for the bread and butter stuff versus the smaller community places where they see exclusively bread and butter stuff, and have fewer or no fellows so the residents learn to deal with them early, and these places actually ship out the zebras the second they identify them, so you have to go to rotations elsewhere to even learn how to manage them. In surgery certainly at some of the big academic centers interns don't get anywhere close to the OR, while at the short handed community places they will be there from day one. I think there is valuable training at both levels, and it's hard to say which serves you better. Certainly word of mouth is important to get your next job, and academic endeavors/ research may be important to land fellowships, so your ability to endear yourself to well known people or squeeze in academic endeavors probably matters for certain future directions.

FWIW, it's probably more important to try to discern which places are good versus malignant, because you can be well trained at a wide spectrum of places as long as you are afforded a level of professional respect.
 
Right, yeah I'm just thinking out loud. Cause I always see these "Top 20" ranking threads of residencies on sdn, but I'm starting to wonder now, if you're not interested in academics....does it really matter?

It matters for people whose sense of self worth is derived from the prestige of their school/program. There are a lot of these people in medicine. Just look at all the superiority/inferiority complexes on here.

In reality, better programs are more likely to train you well, and they will give you better job options. That is all.
 
Tough to answer this question generally because each specialty has its own culture and norms. In my field, most folks do one or more fellowships, so residency matters in getting into a fellowship, and top-tier programs do better at getting their residents into the more competitive subspecialties.

Like I know for stuff like IM/GSurg its important for fellowship match.

But what about for guys who don't want to sub-specialize in their residency.

What are the benefits of doing your residency at a "Top 10" place vs. a crappy community hospital in the ghetto?

Apart from obviously being a better trained doctor if you go to a place like Mass Gen, what are the other advantages?

Job Prospects?
Pay?
Location of where you can get jobs?

Or is going to a 'good' residency overrated? If you just want to practice medicine...does it matter then?
 
I know you were hanging out with us in the rads forum. IMO it doesn't matter much in rads.

For simplicity's sake, it only matters when there is a big bottleneck effect downstream (like in IM/Gsurg). Since even the big name rads fellowships are not hypercompetitive, it is not clear that going to a high volume community program or low-tier university program will affect you negatively at all.

There was even a research study that cowme brought up, which showed that (ceteris paribus) rads community programs lead to more lucrative careers (even controlling for higher likelihood of entering academics from name programs).

If you're set on a hypercompetitive location (NYC/SF/LA), you can always just do a big name rads fellowship or one in that area to network.

Interesting. So then why do guys with >250 on the steps gun for top places like NYU/Cornell in rads?

Ego?
Location?

Since you said for rads it doesn't really matter...
 
"Apart from obviously being a better trained doctor if you go to a place like Mass Gen, what are the other advantages?"

I'd say MGH adds a component of prestige that to the very naive translates to "better". I'd say there are dozens of places which train people at least equivalently in many or every field. So no I wouldn't call this obvious at all unless by obvious you mean "to the uninformed it seems..."
 
I'd say MGH adds a component of prestige that to the very naive translates to "better". I'd say there are dozens of places which train people at least equivalently in many or every field. So no I wouldn't call this obvious at all unless by obvious you mean "to the uninformed it seems..."

I was actually quoting the OP back to himself. Actually MGH adds a component of...global referral center with some of the most bizarre cases in the world, pioneers in every single department, affiliated with the richest university in the world, with the highest number of nobel laureates of any university in the world, with the #1 undergrad and med school in the country and arguably the world, etc.

Although I do agree that appeal to authority can be naive, there are plenty of objective reasons that make some programs obviously better, certainly in comparison to community programs.
 
But do any of those features make you a better doctor? Is that Nobel Laureate an effective teacher?

People should go to a place where they feel like they fit in, and not base such an important decision on prestige.
 
I was actually quoting the OP back to himself. Actually MGH adds a component of...global referral center with some of the most bizarre cases in the world, pioneers in every single department, affiliated with the richest university in the world, with the highest number of nobel laureates of any university in the world, with the #1 undergrad and med school in the country and arguably the world, etc.

Although I do agree that appeal to authority can be naive, there are plenty of objective reasons that make some programs obviously better, certainly in comparison to community programs.

I suspect Hopkins and the Mayo clinic have their share of zebras. But all those places have tons of fellows, and lots of academics focused on their research sometimes at the expense of their training obligation, so in some cases the residents are marginalized as compared to smaller places where you are probably more front and center with clinicins who do nothing but work with the residents. At any rate MGH is one of MANY places with excellent training in certain specialties, and actually pretty pedestrian in certain other specialties (hardly the hands down pioneer in "every department"). Every specialty has it's own hierarchy of programs, and prestige and brand name mean a whole lot more to the pre-residency folks than beyond, particularly if you look at private practice. There are places where you will get equivalent, and even better training than some of these big names, but I agree you won't see as many zebras. So the word "obvious" in the prior posters post is a falsehood. Which I thought you were also highlighting as naive in your last post, but from this one it seems you have swallowed the hook, line and sinker. Yes Harvard (and it's affiliates) has it's mystique, and books have been written about the questionable value of this, but all too often prestige is simply like the great powerful Oz, just another guy behind a curtain, no better than the guy at any other well run program.
 
I suspect Hopkins and the Mayo clinic have their share of zebras. But all those places have tons of fellows, and lots of academics focused on their research sometimes at the expense of their training obligation, so in some cases the residents are marginalized as compared to smaller places where you are probably more front and center with clinicins who do nothing but work with the residents. At any rate MGH is one of MANY places with excellent training in certain specialties, and actually pretty pedestrian in certain other specialties (hardly the hands down pioneer in "every department"). Every specialty has it's own hierarchy of programs, and prestige and brand name mean a whole lot more to the pre-residency folks than beyond, particularly if you look at private practice. There are places where you will get equivalent, and even better training than some of these big names, but I agree you won't see as many zebras. So the word "obvious" in the prior posters post is a falsehood. Which I thought you were also highlighting as naive in your last post, but from this one it seems you have swallowed the hook, line and sinker. Yes Harvard (and it's affiliates) has it's mystique, and books have been written about the questionable value of this, but all too often prestige is simply like the great powerful Oz, just another guy behind a curtain, no better than the guy at any other well run program.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

So is it safe to say then that it really DOESNT matter if you go to Hopkins or a community hospital for residency, with regards to post-residency job prospects?

Here's a hypothetical situation. Lets say I wanted to be a hospitalist somewhere in San Fran after residency. If you had to choose between community hospital in Bay Area vs. UPenn/BWH for residency....who has the advantage to land a job in SF?
 
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Fair enough, I stand corrected.

So is it safe to say then that it really DOESNT matter if you go to Hopkins or a community hospital for residency, with regards to post-residency job prospects?

Here's a hypothetical situation. Lets say I wanted to be a hospitalist somewhere in San Fran after residency. If you had to choose between community hospital in Bay Area vs. UPenn/BWH for residency....who has the advantage to land a job in SF?

You are changing the question from quality of training to "getting a job". It's a very different analysis.
If you just want a hospitalist job, having local attendings who know you and can put in a good word to the folks they know at the hospitals in the area, which hospitals also already know the local caliber of residents, probably counts for a lot. If you are looking to move elsewhere, where your hospital and attendings are not a known commodity, having a brand name on the resume probably means more. Again being better trained and having an easier time getting a job are often not the same analysis. We weren't talking about the latter. But in your case a solid community program in the Bay area is going to get you where you want to go.
 
I personally think where you go meaning the prestige of the program does make a difference, its like anything you have been taught since childhood. For the majority of us, we are what we eat and we become the company that we carry. Prestigious programs will have a particular mindset of people that don't want to settle for mediocrity but strive for excellence and so they were ambitious to gain entrance into a prestigious program. Now if you imagine that during your training you are surrounded by such people then clearly you are improving yourself all the time.

I am not saying that the company that one carries is the most important thing, who you are is more important and what you become is completely upon yourself, but again for the majority of humans environment is a big factor.
 
I personally think where you go meaning the prestige of the program does make a difference, its like anything you have been taught since childhood. For the majority of us, we are what we eat and we become the company that we carry. Prestigious programs will have a particular mindset of people that don't want to settle for mediocrity but strive for excellence and so they were ambitious to gain entrance into a prestigious program. Now if you imagine that during your training you are surrounded by such people then clearly you are improving yourself all the time.

I am not saying that the company that one carries is the most important thing, who you are is more important and what you become is completely upon yourself, but again for the majority of humans environment is a big factor.

Again every specialty has it's own hierarchy of where is "best". In many specialties it won't be the same as the one which has a name that carries the most cache. I would suggest that the folks who strived in med school to get into the best program in their specialty for residency are going to be the ones that strive for excellence more than the ones who get into the most prestigious. These are often not the same places. You have to be careful not to synonymize prestige and top program in your mind. The best regarded programs in certain specialties are often places you wouldn't have guessed had you not looked into that specialty. As I said before, in some specialties some of the places with big names are actually quite pedestrian. No place is great in everything. Many places are top notch in one thing and outright weak in others.
 
Prestigious programs will have a particular mindset of people that don't want to settle for mediocrity but strive for excellence and so they were ambitious to gain entrance into a prestigious program.

I really disagree with this. Residents in community hospitals and the like don't just settle for mediocrity. We all strive for excellence.

You can get great training in many many hospitals.
 
I'd say people in the IM residency program (faculty and residents) at the place where I went to med school were on average "smarter" (IQ-wise) than the average IM resident at the less famous/prestigious place where I'm doing my fellowship. However, the IM residents @my current hospital are in general more compassionate and the best of them are more patient care driven (rather than trying to climb the academic ladder). The weaker ones are just slackers (and there are a few). The places with more hot shots have more personality disordered, egotistical people, I think...but as a group they tend to be more "driven" in some respects. So u pick your poison and u drink it...
 
A few thoughts on this, which is actually a very important topic.

I think that the idea that community shop usually equals better clinical training is at best overstated. Many of them are years behind academic shops in terms of cutting edge medicine. Look at a simple thing like therapeutic hypothermia after cardiac arrest. If you train at Big U you will probably learn about it and how important it is. If you train at Community and they haven't adopted it you won't. Not cooling post-arrest patients isn't some equally valid alternative therapy, it is just not up to date medical practice. I've seen ICUs in the community where there clearly is not a diligent approach to the daily stuff like line removal, sedation holds, SBTs etc.

Ultimately you are in residency to get a job and you want the best one you can find. I'm far enough along now to have observed a few people going alone the bottom rungs of medical training (at least in terms of prestige) and now they have fairly crappy jobs. It doesn't mean they are miserable, but at least in Emergency Med there are Great jobs, Good jobs, and everything else. The Great Jobs are pretty much full of people from prestigious university programs in the geographical radius. The everything else jobs don't really have any of those grads.

Very few people in medicine will look with the retrospectoscope at any part of their training and admit that it was weak, almost always they say it was better than anyone else's no matter where they went. I talked to a doc recently who freely admitted he hated his residency, was miserable/overworked/burnt out. Now he says he can't imagine having gone anywhere else. We work so hard we all kind of get Stockholm syndrome.
 
I think that the idea that community shop usually equals better clinical training is at best overstated. Many of them are years behind academic shops in terms of cutting edge medicine.

Totally off topic, but why did I know you were in EM because of the use of the term "shop" to refer to the work environment? I've rarely heard it used in other specialties (occasionally Rads).

Any idea of the origin of that use in your specialty? 😕
 
A few thoughts on this, which is actually a very important topic.

I think that the idea that community shop usually equals better clinical training is at best overstated. Many of them are years behind academic shops in terms of cutting edge medicine. Look at a simple thing like therapeutic hypothermia after cardiac arrest. If you train at Big U you will probably learn about it and how important it is. If you train at Community and they haven't adopted it you won't. Not cooling post-arrest patients isn't some equally valid alternative therapy, it is just not up to date medical practice. I've seen ICUs in the community where there clearly is not a diligent approach to the daily stuff like line removal, sedation holds, SBTs etc.

Ultimately you are in residency to get a job and you want the best one you can find. I'm far enough along now to have observed a few people going alone the bottom rungs of medical training (at least in terms of prestige) and now they have fairly crappy jobs. It doesn't mean they are miserable, but at least in Emergency Med there are Great jobs, Good jobs, and everything else. The Great Jobs are pretty much full of people from prestigious university programs in the geographical radius. The everything else jobs don't really have any of those grads.

Very few people in medicine will look with the retrospectoscope at any part of their training and admit that it was weak, almost always they say it was better than anyone else's no matter where they went. I talked to a doc recently who freely admitted he hated his residency, was miserable/overworked/burnt out. Now he says he can't imagine having gone anywhere else. We work so hard we all kind of get Stockholm syndrome.

I'm doing my prelim year at a very non prestigious community hospital. They use therapeutic hypothermia too, do don't act like this is something limited to academic centers. I've also rotated through radiology departments at my big university med school and this small community hospital. I can say without a doubt that the residents are stronger at the community center. While they suffer through 3X as much call and no hand holding from attendings/fellows, they also seem to get confident and accurate faster (and I'm not trying to stroke the ego of my prelim program; I'll be training at an academic center next year)

I agree with you that a BAD community program could kill your career, but it seems to me like any decent community program will train you at least as well as anywhere else (although this may be unique to radiology, where your skill correlates to volume more than anything else)
 
I've also rotated through radiology departments at my big university med school and this small community hospital. I can say without a doubt that the residents are stronger at the community center. While they suffer through 3X as much call and no hand holding from attendings/fellows, they also seem to get confident and accurate faster (and I'm not trying to stroke the ego of my prelim program; I'll be training at an academic center next year)

I agree with you that a BAD community program could kill your career, but it seems to me like any decent community program will train you at least as well as anywhere else (although this may be unique to radiology, where your skill correlates to volume more than anything else)

Key points...and certainly explains that research study, huh?
 
Again every specialty has it's own hierarchy of where is "best". In many specialties it won't be the same as the one which has a name that carries the most cache. I would suggest that the folks who strived in med school to get into the best program in their specialty for residency are going to be the ones that strive for excellence more than the ones who get into the most prestigious. These are often not the same places. You have to be careful not to synonymize prestige and top program in your mind. The best regarded programs in certain specialties are often places you wouldn't have guessed had you not looked into that specialty. As I said before, in some specialties some of the places with big names are actually quite pedestrian. No place is great in everything. Many places are top notch in one thing and outright weak in others.

Agreed...

When I wrote this I had Top Program in Mind, not necessarily the Prestige of the Institution. Please substitute Top Program for Prestige.
 
I really disagree with this. Residents in community hospitals and the like don't just settle for mediocrity. We all strive for excellence.

You can get great training in many many hospitals.

Everything is relative. "We all think we are doing our best", however only when you are forced in an environment which tests your limits do you really know. That enviornment is more likely to be at a "Top Program" then not.
 
It's important to get the best training you can during residency.

As an applicant though, it's very hard to know what the training really is like on the inside. You really don't know about the quality of training until you get there. I would say this is especially true in procedural specialties.

That's why things like reputation of the department and of the institution end up being factors.

Ultimately you are in residency to get a job and you want the best one you can find. I'm far enough along now to have observed a few people going alone the bottom rungs of medical training (at least in terms of prestige) and now they have fairly crappy jobs. It doesn't mean they are miserable, but at least in Emergency Med there are Great jobs, Good jobs, and everything else. The Great Jobs are pretty much full of people from prestigious university programs in the geographical radius. The everything else jobs don't really have any of those grads.

I think the advantage of doing a better residency is that you'll be more skilled coming out. You'll be able to do more. You'll have more confidence. For private practice jobs it makes some difference, but not that much difference, where you trained at.
 
Thought this article may be interesting to others in general, but especially if you're strongly considering rads. I agree with cowme, though...this is likely unique to rads.

Directly from the article:

"Moreover, the one statistically significant relationship that we found is very puzzling, that graduates of the poorest programs have, other things being equal, higher incomes than graduates of the best rated programs. This finding is not explicable by the hypothesis that graduates of the poorest rated programs enter private practice, where salaries are higher than in academia. Because we used multiple regression analysis, effects of all other variables considered in our studies, including private practice versus an academic job, were controlled for. In other words, the puzzling finding constitutes the difference in salary after controlling for what type of job the graduate has taken (and for all other factors we studied)."
-excerpt of article from AJR (a very prestigious academic publication in radiology) http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/178/5/1067
 
Everything is relative. "We all think we are doing our best", however only when you are forced in an environment which tests your limits do you really know. That enviornment is more likely to be at a "Top Program" then not.

Why is that more likely at a top program? Do residents like me see so few patients? Do we never see zebras? Do we have to do fewer procedures? Do you have any objective information?

Being a resident will 'test your limits' anywhere you go. It's absurd to think that only the residents in the top 5 programs really get tested.
 
I'm doing my prelim year at a very non prestigious community hospital. They use therapeutic hypothermia too, do don't act like this is something limited to academic centers. I've also rotated through radiology departments at my big university med school and this small community hospital. I can say without a doubt that the residents are stronger at the community center. While they suffer through 3X as much call and no hand holding from attendings/fellows, they also seem to get confident and accurate faster (and I'm not trying to stroke the ego of my prelim program; I'll be training at an academic center next year)

I agree with you that a BAD community program could kill your career, but it seems to me like any decent community program will train you at least as well as anywhere else (although this may be unique to radiology, where your skill correlates to volume more than anything else)

I didn't say it was limited to academic centers, it's clearly not. It was just an example of something that will probably be 100% at university places before its 100% at community training programs.
 
Everything is relative. "We all think we are doing our best", however only when you are forced in an environment which tests your limits do you really know. That enviornment is more likely to be at a "Top Program" then not.
This is all speculation. Your limits aren't going to be tested by a difficult case that is being performed/managed by the fellow(s). What will test your limits is a challenging case load with a lot of work, which I don't see as being exclusive to a prestigious program.
 
This is all speculation. Your limits aren't going to be tested by a difficult case that is being performed/managed by the fellow(s). What will test your limits is a challenging case load with a lot of work, which I don't see as being exclusive to a prestigious program.

Agreed. No question there are some trade offs not being at the big name places, in terms of state of the art equipment, techniques, zebras. But getting hands on, high volume experience and not being in the shadows of fellows probably translates to being better technically. I'm betting the happy medium of these two issues is found at the middle level programs -- not the biggest names, but not the unknown community places either.
 
Anecdotally, my husband did internal medicine at one big western university program (X) and did fellowship at another (Y). Both are well regarded, but the IM program where he did fellowship was more prestigious than the one he did fellowship at. But in his opinion, X did a better job of teaching boots on the ground medicine and that the residents from Y spent a lot of time in their heads but not a lot of time aggressively and successfully resuscitating patients. Just one example.

In surgical programs, as we've discussed countless times in that forum, it can really be very tricky to figure out quality (which is I think what most people are talking about). Volume of cases can be one surrogate, but that should really be parsed into case mix as well. Some of the super-prestigious university programs don't have as high volume as some of the "mid-range" programs.Some of the community programs have high volumes, but the residents never do a liver resection or a whipple (for instance).

This is the crux of figuring out quality in training programs. While prestige MAY be a surrogate for quality of training, its not necessarily one. In general, I think its probably good if you train at a place that refers very few cases out of the institution. If a lot is going elsewhere, than those are training and learning opportunities that are being given to other residents.

It's all pretty tricky. A lot of people in medical school gravitate to high prestige residencies because they get blinded to the name or the reputation. Most of the time it works out fine, but a lot of other people are fabulously trained at other institutions.
 
Why go to a good one? Don't you want to be the best you can be?

Go to the best place you can so you can get the best training. This won't be at a community program.

Also, name helps you get jobs, PP and academics.

Docs hate to talk about it, but not all training is created equal. Not even close.
 
Go to the best place you can so you can get the best training. This won't be at a community program.
Based on.........? It absolutely depends on your career goals.

If you plan to be a busy general surgeon in the community, taking two years out of the middle of your residency to do basic science research and rotating on services doing cases that involve five different attendings from different specialties is probably not the best training for you.

Also, name helps you get jobs, PP and academics.

Docs hate to talk about it, but not all training is created equal. Not even close.
I don't disagree with this, but for different reasons. It's never my goal to call out specific programs, but I have had significant exposure to academic institutions that will prepare their residents well for an academic career, but I don't feel like they do as good a job preparing a resident for a career in clinical medicine.
 
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Why go to a good one? Don't you want to be the best you can be?

Go to the best place you can so you can get the best training. This won't be at a community program.

Also, name helps you get jobs, PP and academics.

Docs hate to talk about it, but not all training is created equal. Not even close.

We ALL want to be the best we can be!!! How can you imply someone is less of a doctor than you because they went to a community program?

So many programs are great. Choose the one where you feel like you will be comfortable and fit in. THAT is the one where you will learn the most. Not all training is equal. But we all want different things and learn in different ways.

I wanted to stay local. I got interview offers at places like Ohio State. I eventually turned down OSU's offer because I don't want to go to an academic place at all. I CHOSE to go to a community hospital because I knew I'd fit in there, I learned a lot, all the people were great, and I would get a great education.
 
Why go to a good one? Don't you want to be the best you can be?

Go to the best place you can so you can get the best training. This won't be at a community program.

Also, name helps you get jobs, PP and academics.

Docs hate to talk about it, but not all training is created equal. Not even close.

there's often a difference between going where you'll get the best training versus getting the stronger CV value. I think a lot of folks would very reasonably go to a big name academic center because it carries a lot of cache and you don't have to sell that program to future employers. That's a value unto itself without getting into the "better trained" issue, which is why I suggested above that you need to separate out the questions of what equates to better training versus what lands you a job more effortlessly -- these needn't be the same thing.

Few people will turn down the really prestigious resume, but it's not always because the training is "better", it's because the perception is better. But perception and reality don't always co-exist, and for a variety of reasons they often don't in residency training. The reason these don't align is sometimes (but not always) because (1) large academic centers train more fellows, and this can leave residents wrestling for scraps, (2) big name research guys often are more focused on their research than their clinical teaching obligations, so lots of Nobel winners may simply mean lots of attendings who don't want to waste their time training residents, (3) more zebras means less bread and butter stuff, the stuff you'll actually see in practice, (4) high volumes in a perpetually short staffed situation means more hands on learning for residents earlier at the community places, and as Prowler suggests, (5) an emphasis on research sometimes means less time for or focus on, the hands on stuff. The place with no fellows where you see a much higher volume of the bread and butter stuff, and eg get into the OR in your first year and are doing things solo a few years later, is going to make you more technically proficient at the bread and butter stuff you see in private practice. Being at a place where you watch over the shoulders of fellows as they learn to manage some crazy zebras, and get to write up lots of case reports and present at national meetings, has value, but not the equivalent value if your goal is to be a local private practitioner.

I'm not saying this is true in every case, and I'm not saying you might not want to go to the big name academic center for the resume value alone. But I think you get onto very shaky ground when you start making claims of who is better trained, the technician vs the academician. Both have their place and both have a lot of skill-sets and blindspots. Which again, if you think about it, might even suggest that programs somewhere in the middle of these two extremes probably provide the best value.
 
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Clearly this topic has a grey zone....

And also I believe that we are discussing two different things.. Again I want to correct my previous post, I am not focusing on the Prestige of the program but more so on the reputation of the program.

However, arguing that individual ambition/characteristics/qualities is the only factor that decides the training they will get and the program they go to, has no role does not make sense.

Clearly the program that one goes to plays a large role!

Now sitting and applying as a medical student you will clearly apply to programs that have the reputation for being a great training program.

I believe we all have our own biases of what a "Great Program" should be. Academics, Patient Load, Great Teaching, Prestige, Research, Reputation, Fellowships, location and so on...

But again controlling for all of the factors above that each individual biases there are certain programs that are "Great" and that is agreed upon by the majority. No matter what your bias is "Anyone" that goes to this "Great" program will get better training than the someone that did not.

I think what I am writing is common sense and does not require objective data. But again, I have been wrong more than I have been right.
 
This is all speculation. Your limits aren't going to be tested by a difficult case that is being performed/managed by the fellow(s). What will test your limits is a challenging case load with a lot of work, which I don't see as being exclusive to a prestigious program.

Again, please forgive me for ever using the word prestigious.

Agreed Challenging Case load will test your limits, however not necessarily a lot of work....

As well Challenging Case Loads may come and go, however "Top Programs" more likely than not will have better ways of conveying the learning points from those Challenging Case Loads than not so Top Programs....

Again, I am not putting down other programs, I am just being the devils advocate to ensure that people understant that there IS a difference between the qualities of Programs and that not all Programs are created equally.
 
Again, please forgive me for ever using the word prestigious.

Agreed Challenging Case load will test your limits, however not necessarily a lot of work....
Certainly work can mean a lot of things - if you're doing a lot of discharge summaries, checking charts, and ordering labs, it's not the same as doing lots of consults, evaluating patients, etc. I was implying "a lot of clinical exposure and experience."

As well Challenging Case Loads may come and go, however "Top Programs" more likely than not will have better ways of conveying the learning points from those Challenging Case Loads than not so Top Programs....

Again, I am not putting down other programs, I am just being the devils advocate to ensure that people understant that there IS a difference between the qualities of Programs and that not all Programs are created equally.
I most definitely agree that all programs are not equal, but that needs to be further divided. A top academic research program is not going to turn out as good of a clinician as a top clinical program, and they're most likely not going to be the same program. That's not a bad thing, because those are two totally different career tracks. You just have to decide what you want to do and then pick accordingly.

It also depends on the level of your training. I interviewed at a place that is world-renowned for some of their fellowship programs, not so much their residency programs. The high-level exposure for the fellows somehow doesn't translate into an equally excellent experience for the residents.
 
No, it simply is NOT the case that anyone can get better training there.

Different people want different things, and learn in different ways.

Law2Doc listed some great points about why you can get better clinically at a community hospital. No fellows doing all the work, fewer zebras, more hands on, more bread and butter.

Since I want to be a Hospitalist, these are all perfect. In fact, an academic center would be far inferior for me. But again, that's just me. If you wanted to become an interventional cardiologist, you might get better education elsewhere.
 
Based on.........? It absolutely depends on your career goals.

If you plan to be a busy general surgeon in the community, taking two years out of the middle of your residency to do basic science research and rotating on services doing cases that involve five different attendings from different specialties is probably not the best training for you.


I don't disagree with this, but for different reasons. It's never my goal to call out specific programs, but I have had significant exposure to academic institutions that will prepare their residents well for an academic career, but I don't feel like they do as good a job preparing a resident for a career in clinical medicine.


The exposure to medicine and training at a community hospital is not the same as a large academic center.

Pros and Cons to each, but the Pros of going to a large, renown center outweigh the Pros of a community center.

1) Greater volume of cases
2) Better cases
3) Better job prospects
4) Better fellowship prospects


The "everybody wins a trophy" mentality of medicine isn't reflective of the real world. It matters where you train, so train at the best place you can. In every specialty, the best place is an academic center.
 
We ALL want to be the best we can be!!! How can you imply someone is less of a doctor than you because they went to a community program?

So many programs are great. Choose the one where you feel like you will be comfortable and fit in. THAT is the one where you will learn the most. Not all training is equal. But we all want different things and learn in different ways.

I wanted to stay local. I got interview offers at places like Ohio State. I eventually turned down OSU's offer because I don't want to go to an academic place at all. I CHOSE to go to a community hospital because I knew I'd fit in there, I learned a lot, all the people were great, and I would get a great education.

That's great that you chose community. However, the fact remains that the best training in every specialty is at an academic center. Will you get what you need to practice medicine at an adequate level? Probably.

Will you have received the best training possible? No. Will you have chosen the best path for you, personally? Probably.

If you're OK with that, then go ahead and choose community. In many cases, you'll probably be happier, as community programs generally have a less malignant feel than big academic places.

So, Pros and Cons each way. Some people are OK with not getting the absolute BEST training, and that's fine. It will limit your career options and marketability in the future, though, so keep that in mind.
 
Good points. I addressed my theme of Pros and Cons in earlier posts, so I won't reiterate, but community programs may be the best personal fit for some, and that's great, but they won't give you the absolute BEST training in a specific field.

Those opportunities are only found at academic centers.

Alot of people are OK with not being the best, and that's OK.

there's often a difference between going where you'll get the best training versus getting the stronger CV value. I think a lot of folks would very reasonably go to a big name academic center because it carries a lot of cache and you don't have to sell that program to future employers. That's a value unto itself without getting into the "better trained" issue, which is why I suggested above that you need to separate out the questions of what equates to better training versus what lands you a job more effortlessly -- these needn't be the same thing.

Few people will turn down the really prestigious resume, but it's not always because the training is "better", it's because the perception is better. But perception and reality don't always co-exist, and for a variety of reasons they often don't in residency training. The reason these don't align is sometimes (but not always) because (1) large academic centers train more fellows, and this can leave residents wrestling for scraps, (2) big name research guys often are more focused on their research than their clinical teaching obligations, so lots of Nobel winners may simply mean lots of attendings who don't want to waste their time training residents, (3) more zebras means less bread and butter stuff, the stuff you'll actually see in practice, (4) high volumes in a perpetually short staffed situation means more hands on learning for residents earlier at the community places, and as Prowler suggests, (5) an emphasis on research sometimes means less time for or focus on, the hands on stuff. The place with no fellows where you see a much higher volume of the bread and butter stuff, and eg get into the OR in your first year and are doing things solo a few years later, is going to make you more technically proficient at the bread and butter stuff you see in private practice. Being at a place where you watch over the shoulders of fellows as they learn to manage some crazy zebras, and get to write up lots of case reports and present at national meetings, has value, but not the equivalent value if your goal is to be a local private practitioner.

I'm not saying this is true in every case, and I'm not saying you might not want to go to the big name academic center for the resume value alone. But I think you get onto very shaky ground when you start making claims of who is better trained, the technician vs the academician. Both have their place and both have a lot of skill-sets and blindspots. Which again, if you think about it, might even suggest that programs somewhere in the middle of these two extremes probably provide the best value.
 
The exposure to medicine and training at a community hospital is not the same as a large academic center.

Pros and Cons to each, but the Pros of going to a large, renown center outweigh the Pros of a community center.

1) Greater volume of cases
2) Better cases
3) Better job prospects
4) Better fellowship prospects


The "everybody wins a trophy" mentality of medicine isn't reflective of the real world. It matters where you train, so train at the best place you can. In every specialty, the best place is an academic center.

Your arrogance is appalling. Now people at community programs are 'ok with not being the best'? Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how you are coming across? You are being insulting and rude.

As I don't want to do a fellowship, and want to be a Hospitalist, your points 3 and 4 aren't applicable to me. And points 1 and 2 are arguable at best. Why would the volume per resident be better? Why would those attendings be better teachers? Why is the training better? Because it is famous?

Frankly, if I had to deal with attitudes like yours I'd learn little and be miserable at an academic center.
 
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Your arrogance is appalling. Now people at community programs are 'ok with not being the best'? Are you kidding me? Do you have any idea how you are coming across? You are being insulting and rude.

As I don't want to do a fellowship, and want to be a Hospitalist, your points 3 and 4 aren't applicable to me. And points 1 and 2 are arguable at best. Why would the volume per resident be better? Why would those attendings be better teachers?

Frankly, if I had to deal with attitudes like yours I'd do lousy, learn little and be miserable at an academic center.


Dude, what makes you think I'm at an academic program?

What's wrong with saying some places are better than others?
 
The exposure to medicine and training at a community hospital is not the same as a large academic center.

Pros and Cons to each, but the Pros of going to a large, renown center outweigh the Pros of a community center.

1) Greater volume of cases
2) Better cases
3) Better job prospects
4) Better fellowship prospects
#1 is simply wrong, in my experience, and #2 is highly debatable.

There has been plenty of discussion about case volume in the surgery forums, so I'll just link to that - http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=816390

But at the programs I interviewed at, the community programs had higher operative case volume than the academic programs, sometimes by a huge margin, and my exposure as a resident further validates that. There is no published aggregate data of this though.

The "everybody wins a trophy" mentality of medicine isn't reflective of the real world. It matters where you train, so train at the best place you can. In every specialty, the best place is an academic center.
If you want to be in academics. If your plan is to do gall bladders, colectomies, and Nissens in the community, then being third scrubbed into a robotic Whipple or doing a pelvic exenteration is not the best use of your time. It would be much more useful to be doing the things you plan to be doing, and to do them repeatedly. Nor would it be useful to take several years out your training to do research.
 
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