Why is it that structured gap year programs like TFA are considered prestigious?

[flatearth22]

I have many friends who are highly successful people except they didn't know what they wanted to do after college graduation or they wanted to delay entering med/law/business/grad school. So they ended up applying and getting accepted into structured gap year programs such as TFA, AmeriCorps, Peace Corps, etc. and now that they are entering these programs they're extremely proud to tell anyone and everyone that they are in these programs, and people are usually like "omg!! that's awesome!!" and there is the feeling all around that these programs are some sort of life-altering experience and that these individuals who are in the program are on some sort of high road to success instead of being the lost, wandering, empty status-chasing strivers that they actually are.

What's up with this? I did some cursory research into these programs and it just seems like it's a crappy job doing some crappy stuff while living in crap conditions. If you really want to work on making a social change there are a billion other ways to do it...not to mention more creative, less restrictive ways not found in a structured program in which you can actually make more friends and have more freedom. If you truly want to experience how the "other half" in the country (or the world) lives, then why don't you just set up shop in a poor, minority neighborhood while pursuing your childhood dreams in some artistic or athletic field? If you really want to acquire some soft skills that can come from teaching or from being in a new, diverse environment, then why don't you just go teach English abroad? Nope...instead you're the young person who chooses to be tied down to a structured program that will confer with it a feeling that you are on some sort of "right" path in life.

Why is it that these structured programs are such a prestigious enterprise to be plopped down onto a resume with pride and accomplishment while all these other aforementioned choices would usually be met with sympathetic nods and thoughts of the dismal state of this economy, especially when there's no substantive difference between them except strikes against the latter?

It truly makes me sad for the state of our society....

tl;dr - thread title

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[ablavar]

Take a look at this.

http://chronicle.com/article/What-Are-You-Going-to-Do-With/124651/

 

[Medicine4Bruhs]

"How many of you who are going to be doctors, are willing to spend your days in Ghana? Technicians or engineers, how many of you are willing to work in the Foreign Service and spend your lives traveling around the world? On your willingness to do that, not merely to serve one year or two years in the service, but on your willingness to contribute part of your life to this country" -JFK

Good traits for a doc.

 

[Soulstice]

**** that, this post makes me sad for our society. This is someone who clearly doesn't know that TFA accepts under a fifth of its applicants, or that for many of its members, TFA is one of the most grueling experiences they go through. And how are your suggestions, like teaching English abroad or shopkeeping in a poor neighborhood, any better than TFA? Do you even know anything about TFA?

 

[Astarael]

I'd say it has something to do with a willingness to take a year or two out of your life to do something nice for others for basically no pay.

But that's just me. Maybe that's not a desirable quality.

tl;dr please stop making these threads.

 

[sector9]

Does flatearth22 care about ANYTHING at all besides prestige? I was at the thread title because it's so typical. Flatearth, are you trying to find every single activity that will give you more prestige? You might want to retake the MCAT if that's the case, because your 32 is just oh-so-typical

 

[flatearth22]

"How many of you who are going to be doctors, are willing to spend your days in Ghana? Technicians or engineers, how many of you are willing to work in the Foreign Service and spend your lives traveling around the world? On your willingness to do that, not merely to serve one year or two years in the service, but on your willingness to contribute part of your life to this country" -JFK

Good traits for a doc.

Yes but why are unstructured endeavors in these fields usually met with skepticism and apathy while structured programs are met with respect and admiration? It takes more initiative, creativity, and resourcefulness to do an unstructured endeavor than just submit an application to TFA, AmeriCorps, etc.

 

[Barcu]

Yes but why are unstructured endeavors in these fields usually met with skepticism and apathy while structured programs are met with respect and admiration? It takes more initiative, creativity, and resourcefulness to do an unstructured endeavor than just submit an application to TFA, AmeriCorps, etc.

Because structured programs are competitive to get into and have a track record.

Grad schools know what to expect from people who did these programs because they are more or less standardized. They know what the program entailed, and what the student had to do to be successful.

Non-structured programs may benefit the world more or be better experiences. However, how are grad schools (or anyone else you talk to) supposed to know that? You can take those experiences and make them sound like a plus but it is much harder to do than someone coming from an established program.

 

[IlDestriero]

I took a couple years off. Got a cool job, made some loot, partied like a rockstar. Beats Ghana. I recommend it.👍

 

[Suncrusher]

Does flatearth22 care about ANYTHING at all besides prestige? I was at the thread title because it's so typical. Flatearth, are you trying to find every single activity that will give you more prestige? You might want to retake the MCAT if that's the case, because your 32 is just oh-so-typical

o damn

 

[flatearth22]

I took a couple years off. Got a cool job, made some loot, partied like a rockstar. Beats Ghana. I recommend it.👍

The sad thing is if someone did that in today's day and age and put it on their AMCAS as an experience they would get laughed at instead of applauded.

Also TFA is just a glorified babysitting job used solely to beef up your resume as future career leverage. It's like saying "hey! I care about kids education so much that I took 2 years out of my successful life to do an impossible job in a crap location that people would do anyways but for the rest of their lives because they actually care about it!"

http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_1_how_i_joined.html

 

[flatearth22]

Does flatearth22 care about ANYTHING at all besides prestige? I was at the thread title because it's so typical. Flatearth, are you trying to find every single activity that will give you more prestige? You might want to retake the MCAT if that's the case, because your 32 is just oh-so-typical

hey let's focus on the messenger and not the message.

stay on topic please.

 

[Onres]

The sad thing is if someone did that in today's day and age and put it on their AMCAS as an experience they would get laughed at instead of applauded.

Also TFA is just a glorified babysitting job used solely to beef up your resume as future career leverage. It's like saying "hey! I care about kids education so much that I took 2 years out of my successful life to do an impossible job in a crap location that people would do anyways but for the rest of their lives because they actually care about it!"

http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_1_how_i_joined.html

This is the same person that wanted to list his/her race as black because his/her great grandfather is African...are your really going to talk about beefing up resumes

 

[ponyo]

How is TFA prestigious? I thought the stereotype was that only people who couldn't get higher-paying jobs do go into TFA/nonprofit? Also most of the professional teachers I've spoken to don't really approve of the program either.

BTW I think it is a horrible mindset but that is definitely what I've heard everybody say.

 

[flatearth22]

This is the same person that wanted to list his/her race as black because his/her great grandfather is African...are your really going to talk about beefing up resumes

see the post above yours

 

[Onres]

see the post above yours

I am bud. Your message is that TFA is for resume boosting. Which you clearly have no problem doing. So what are you b*tching about?

Edit:

You look at your previous post. I'm pretty sure you got it backwards.

 

[NickNaylor]

How is TFA prestigious? I thought the stereotype was that only people who couldn't get higher-paying jobs do go into TFA/nonprofit? Also most of the professional teachers I've spoken to don't really approve of the program either.

BTW I think it is a horrible mindset but that is definitely what I've heard everybody say.

You clearly do not understand TFA, then.

Teaching in underserved, high-risk areas is akin to working with underserved, high-risk patients as a physician. While there may not be any "prestige" associated with this program compared to being a university professor (or compared to working in academic medicine), it's an important job that needs to be done, and positive harm will be done if no one does it.

Of course flatearth doesn't understand this, so don't try and explain it to him. For him it's all about the money, name recognition, and how much of your ass people will kiss because you're an oh-so-hallowed physician.

 

[Onres]

You clearly do not understand TFA, then.

Teaching in underserved, high-risk areas is akin to working with underserved, high-risk patients as a physician. While there may not be any "prestige" associated with this program compared to being a university professor (or compared to working in academic medicine), it's an important job that needs to be done, and positive harm will be done if no one does it.

Of course flatearth doesn't understand this, so don't try and explain it to him. For him it's all about the money, name recognition, and how much of your ass people will kiss because you're an oh-so-hallowed physician.

Am I wrong or do I sense a bit of Dr. Cox in that last part? lol

 

[nyny87]

Believe it or not, some people care about others. It's not always a resume booster. It's not always some kind of scheme to get ahead. A lot of people truly care. Just because you can't see any other reason to join one of these programs, doesn't mean that a reason doesn't exist.

 

[flatearth22]

Believe it or not, some people care about others. It's not always a resume booster. It's not always some kind of scheme to get ahead. A lot of people truly care. Just because you can't see any other reason to join one of these programs, doesn't mean that a reason doesn't exist.

Let's be honest. Some people care. Most do not. They just see it as another feather in their cap for their future career in law, medicine, or business. This one girl who graduated with me even had a facebook status update saying how happy she was that she got assigned to a charter school for TFA. She'll be living in the suburbs teaching rich white kids who are already ahead of the curve instead of the traditional TFA site in an inner city school teaching primarily minorities who are struggling.

 

[NickNaylor]

Let's be honest. Some people care. Most do not. They just see it as another feather in their cap for their future career in law, medicine, or business. This one girl who graduated with me even had a facebook status update saying how happy she was that she got assigned to a charter school for TFA. She'll be living in the suburbs teaching rich white kids who are already ahead of the curve instead of the traditional TFA site in an inner city school teaching primarily minorities who are struggling.

Jesus you're stupid.

 

[Onres]

Let's be honest. Some people care. Most do not. They just see it as another feather in their cap for their future career in law, medicine, or business. This one girl who graduated with me even had a facebook status update saying how happy she was that she got assigned to a charter school for TFA. She'll be living in the suburbs teaching rich white kids who are already ahead of the curve instead of the traditional TFA site in an inner city school teaching primarily minorities who are struggling.

Yes, this one girl who graduated with you is most people. Oh SDN.

 

[flatearth22]

Jesus you're stupid.

Just couldn't resist taking me off your ignore list huh? 👍

 

[iniquus]

Because structured programs are competitive to get into and have a track record.

Grad schools know what to expect from people who did these programs because they are more or less standardized. They know what the program entailed, and what the student had to do to be successful.

This answers your thread.

My problem with TFA, along with many international medical missions, is that there is no system for actual change. Many of these programs design themselves (probably unintentionally) to provide temporary relief. Despite whatever TFA touts, many people do use it as a resume builder and the retention rate isn't amazing. Many teachers that come out of TFA also go on to teach at schools that wouldn't be classified as underserved. It's in human nature to want what's best for yourself, and only the truly selfless individuals will go the route where they are most needed--sacrificing a bit off the comfort of their career to do what needs to be done.

The best medical mission is one in which humanitarian physicians TRAIN local physicians and donate current technology/equipment, instead of visiting to do a couple of surgeries, gifting obsolete machines, or administering expensive antibiotics the locals cannot afford. They pat themselves on the plane ride back, but conditions haven't approved. The thing is TFA and these short-term medical missions are better than nothing.

 

[eli20]

Take a look at this.

http://chronicle.com/article/What-Are-You-Going-to-Do-With/124651/

Thank you - I loved this 🙂

 

[NickNaylor]

I have a question for you, Nick. Do you think the people who volunteer for TFA would do it still if it had a neutral effect on their application? That is, it was on par with drinking and partying for an entire year (I wish not to ask you to suppose there were a negative effect, since that situation is simply preposterous). I know, personally, I have very little interest in pursuing education of children in third world countries. This is not a result of lack of empathy for other people, but rather purely out of lack of interest in teaching language and other things take priority. I would rather do research for free for that year and further my projects, even if it had no bearing on my application. That is quite simply my passion. With that said, do you think the majority of those applicants have the same passion? Ultimately, I believe this is the question flatearth is trying to ascertain.

Simply, do you believe the majority of applicants are actually passionate and care 'for other people', or is there primarily a supporting ulterior motive for the applicants of this program? Some people are achievers by profile. It's an addicting existence. A lot of them aim for top firms, top scholarships, etc. This is another stone to mark in their path.

I definitely don't think it wouldn't be as competitive as it is if it wasn't a recognized program and didn't have the benefits for being relatively renowned.

So with that said, what's the problem? While the methods TFA uses to go about its work may not institute long term change/improvement (as iniquus mentions), there's no doubt that it does SOMETHING. If the people that are involved with TFA do their work well, who cares what their motivations are?

To use a more familiar example: very few people go into medicine solely because they "want to help people" or because they have a passion for curing the sick. No doubt these are very important motivations, but in reality there are a variety of factors that influence someone's decision to become a physician. Does that somehow negate the patients they treated or the kids they taught?

The question is ultimately irrelevant because it doesn't matter other than to people that like to have circle jerks over how altruistic they are. Don't get me wrong, doing something like TFA for the "resume padding" or pursuing medicine for money and prestige are *****ic decisions. Doing those things for those reasons would almost certainly leave you unhappy once you realize that money, prestige, resume padding, etc. aren't all they're cracked up to be. But, at the end of the day, if a TFA member or a physician does their work well and doesn't hurt anyone in the process, why is it anyone's place to question anyone's motivation for doing anything? Whether it be TFA or the medical profession, the motivations of the members of those organizations matter not on iota as long as they continue to do quality work. I don't care if my CT surgeon gets his jollies from being filthy rich and worshipped like a badass as long as he cures my disease. As a parent, I don't care what the motivations of my child's teacher are as long as he is learning and isn't being abused. The utility/prestige of a program and the motivations of the applicants to/members of the program aren't related.

Unless, of course, you're trying to build the ideal world where everyone does things because they love them and only their passions are pursued. Also, butterflies fly, unicorns run, and every day is sunny with a rainbow.

 

[KLycos]

The sad thing is if someone did that in today's day and age and put it on their AMCAS as an experience they would get laughed at instead of applauded.

Also TFA is just a glorified babysitting job used solely to beef up your resume as future career leverage. It's like saying "hey! I care about kids education so much that I took 2 years out of my successful life to do an impossible job in a crap location that people would do anyways but for the rest of their lives because they actually care about it!"

http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_1_how_i_joined.html

Im doing the same thing he did, 2 year research job at Penn, makin good money, partying on the weekends livin it up. life is awesome.

 

[Dr Love]

Take a look at this.

http://chronicle.com/article/What-Are-You-Going-to-Do-With/124651/

Interesting article. I think the author got it just about right.

 

[ponyo]

You clearly do not understand TFA, then.

Teaching in underserved, high-risk areas is akin to working with underserved, high-risk patients as a physician. While there may not be any "prestige" associated with this program compared to being a university professor (or compared to working in academic medicine), it's an important job that needs to be done, and positive harm will be done if no one does it.

Of course flatearth doesn't understand this, so don't try and explain it to him. For him it's all about the money, name recognition, and how much of your ass people will kiss because you're an oh-so-hallowed physician.

Actually there seems to be a really big difference between people who actually become teachers for those kids and college grads with very little teaching experience doing it for a couple of years. I was really involved with special ed a few years ago and got to meet a number of inner-city teachers, who seem to think that many TFA kids/young teachers with similar backgrounds were not serious about teaching but rather were attracted to TFA for the charity-glamour of it. They tend to burn out very quickly and many do more harm than good... there seemed to have been a bit of resentment from the actual teachers, though why that might be I really am not sure at all.

 

[nyny87]

Let's be honest. Some people care. Most do not. They just see it as another feather in their cap for their future career in law, medicine, or business. This one girl who graduated with me even had a facebook status update saying how happy she was that she got assigned to a charter school for TFA. She'll be living in the suburbs teaching rich white kids who are already ahead of the curve instead of the traditional TFA site in an inner city school teaching primarily minorities who are struggling.

Do you have any idea what a charter school is?

"Rich white kids" either live in good school districts or go to private school. Charter school is not private school. Students usually sign up for it because they are in a bad district and cannot afford private school. So this girl who you are stalking is probably dealing with kids in unfortunate situations who are still ambitious enough to try their luck on a charter school.

Also, it's apparent that you think charter school students are "ahead of the curve". You sign up for a charter school, and the picking is done by lottery. Random number drawing. No tests, and no curve to be ahead of. Maybe you were thinking of a magnet school?

Please stop bashing things that you know nothing about.

 

[IlDestriero]

This answers your thread.

My problem with TFA, along with many international medical missions, is that there is no system for actual change. Many of these programs design themselves (probably unintentionally) to provide temporary relief. Despite whatever TFA touts, many people do use it as a resume builder and the retention rate isn't amazing. Many teachers that come out of TFA also go on to teach at schools that wouldn't be classified as underserved. It's in human nature to want what's best for yourself, and only the truly selfless individuals will go the route where they are most needed--sacrificing a bit off the comfort of their career to do what needs to be done.

The best medical mission is one in which humanitarian physicians TRAIN local physicians and donate current technology/equipment, instead of visiting to do a couple of surgeries, gifting obsolete machines, or administering expensive antibiotics the locals cannot afford. They pat themselves on the plane ride back, but conditions haven't approved. The thing is TFA and these short-term medical missions are better than nothing.

I can think of a lot of kids who are going to live a normal life and not shunned as monsters in their villages thanks to a 30 min cleft lip repair or simple orthopedic correction by a skilled surgical team. I'm not there to change the economic/medical/political system in some 3rd world country. I'm there to profoundly change the lives of a few unfortunate children who could never receive or afford the care they need. Maybe next time I'll just send some books and stick around and make $25k instead.🙄 How do you teach a hack general surgeon and an untrained "anesthetist" with no pediatric endotracheal tubes to do facial plastics on babies without killing or disfiguring them further?

 

[ponyo]

I can think of a lot of kids who are going to live a normal life and not shunned as monsters in their villages thanks to a 30 min cleft lip repair or simple orthopedic correction by a skilled surgical team. I'm not there to change the economic/medical/political system in some 3rd world country. I'm there to profoundly change the lives of a few unfortunate children who could never receive or afford the care they need. Maybe next time I'll just send some books and stick around and make $25k instead.🙄 How do you teach a hack general surgeon and an untrained "anesthetist" with no pediatric endotracheal tubes to do facial plastics on babies without killing or disfiguring them further?

As fair a point as that is though, I still think that there is a lot Americans can do that will effect change. There are medical professionals in developing countries who are literally begging American experts to visit them, even if just for a week, so that their doctors and techs can have a better idea of what they are supposed to do and what they're doing wrong. These trips can make enormous differences, but they are hard to arrange when the locals have no funds.

Sad fact: I actually have people begging me, a college level pre-med, to somehow get them the technical help they need. 🙁

 

[iniquus]

I can think of a lot of kids who are going to live a normal life and not shunned as monsters in their villages thanks to a 30 min cleft lip repair or simple orthopedic correction by a skilled surgical team. I'm not there to change the economic/medical/political system in some 3rd world country. I'm there to profoundly change the lives of a few unfortunate children who could never receive or afford the care they need. Maybe next time I'll just send some books and stick around and make $25k instead.🙄 How do you teach a hack general surgeon and an untrained "anesthetist" with no pediatric endotracheal tubes to do facial plastics on babies without killing or disfiguring them further?

I can't answer your question, and you obviously have more experience with that than me. My point, although not stated, was from learned experience with eyecare in third-world countries--cataract surgeries and glaucoma treatment. What medical missions and TFA does is great, and I don't intend to subtract from their accomplishments, but it will never bridge the gap for self-reliance. It's better than nothing and it may be what is needed or wanted right now, but it's nice to think of an idealistic, bigger picture.

I think eye clinics in Ghana have benefited from this model, and physicians and nurses there are doing their own cataract surgeries after international physicians came over to help train them.

EDIT: I think a great doctor is one that has it within his/her scope to make that profound immediate change in the community, while also setting things in motion either individually, or collectively with other physicians, to change the medical system.

 

[LaFleur]

many TFA kids/young teachers with similar backgrounds were not serious about teaching but rather were attracted to TFA for the charity-glamour of it. They tend to burn out very quickly and many do more harm than good...

This I have actually heard as well.

 

[Narmerguy]

Actually there seems to be a really big difference between people who actually become teachers for those kids and college grads with very little teaching experience doing it for a couple of years. I was really involved with special ed a few years ago and got to meet a number of inner-city teachers, who seem to think that many TFA kids/young teachers with similar backgrounds were not serious about teaching but rather were attracted to TFA for the charity-glamour of it. They tend to burn out very quickly and many do more harm than good... there seemed to have been a bit of resentment from the actual teachers, though why that might be I really am not sure at all.

Look, almost any teacher is going to hate TFA because the whole premise is taking kids with no experience and getting them to do teacher's jobs with minimal training. If that doesn't threaten the usefulness for your job and training I don't know what does. The research so far has not shown there to be any real negatives to these TFA programs so far.

 

[flatearth22]

Look, almost any teacher is going to hate TFA because the whole premise is taking kids with no experience and getting them to do teacher's jobs with minimal training. If that doesn't threaten the usefulness for your job and training I don't know what does. The research so far has not shown there to be any real negatives to these TFA programs so far.

lol....someone should start a "doctor for america" program. Can't be that hard right? Just listen to the patients and look up their chief complaint on WebMD. Boom. Cured.

 

[Narmerguy]

lol....someone should start a "doctor for america" program. Can't be that hard right? Just listen to the patients and look up their chief complaint on WebMD. Boom. Cured.

<insert nursing joke here>

 

[IlDestriero]

lol....someone should start a "doctor for america" program. Can't be that hard right? Just listen to the patients and look up their chief complaint on WebMD. Boom. Cured.

It's called the CVS Minute Clinic.

 

[ponyo]

Look, almost any teacher is going to hate TFA because the whole premise is taking kids with no experience and getting them to do teacher's jobs with minimal training. If that doesn't threaten the usefulness for your job and training I don't know what does. The research so far has not shown there to be any real negatives to these TFA programs so far.

I don't think they meant harm as in to the actual students; I think it's more along the lines of having to deal with a novice who's not actually staying.

 

[Soulstice]

I think the actual teaching commitment is only part of the goal. The second objective of TFA seems to be filling the upper ranks of society eventually with politicians, doctors, lawyers, administrators, etc. who have an understanding and commitment towards education reform.

And for everyone who complains that 2 years isn't enough:
a) Haven't you ever just had one professor who you absolutely loved, a professor who you can say singlehandedly inspired you to pursue a subject in greater detail?
b) Some 20-30% of TFA grads, if not more, actually stay in education longer than their 2 year commitment.

 

[dbeast]

Am I wrong or do I sense a bit of Dr. Cox in that last part? lol

Lulz Nick, ever since your avatar change I've been reading your posts in Dr. Cox's voice... The scary part is that they fit perfectly.

 

[weezynation]

All things being equal (grades, mcat, medical experience, community service, ECs, etc....med schools are gonna take the applicant who took a few years off before med school over the student who just graduated. As long as that time off was productive (at least having a job), there are many lessons learned being out in the real world for a couple years...stuff you just don't learn in the classroom.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

What's up with this? I did some cursory research into these programs and it just seems like it's a crappy job doing some crappy stuff while living in crap conditions. If you really want to work on making a social change there are a billion other ways to do it...not to mention more creative, less restrictive ways not found in a structured program in which you can actually make more friends and have more freedom. If you truly want to experience how the "other half" in the country (or the world) lives, then why don't you just set up shop in a poor, minority neighborhood while pursuing your childhood dreams in some artistic or athletic field? If you really want to acquire some soft skills that can come from teaching or from being in a new, diverse environment, then why don't you just go teach English abroad? Nope...instead you're the young person who chooses to be tied down to a structured program that will confer with it a feeling that you are on some sort of "right" path in life.

Why is it that these structured programs are such a prestigious enterprise to be plopped down onto a resume with pride and accomplishment while all these other aforementioned choices would usually be met with sympathetic nods and thoughts of the dismal state of this economy, especially when there's no substantive difference between them except strikes against the latter?

what you're failing to realize is that these are great programs for people who actually want to see if they want to work in these fields for the rest of their lives. you see, these programs have essentially three missions: 1) for each participant to achieve some set of goals or mission during their 2-year contract; 2) for the organization to work towards some mission, as a culmination of all its participants' 2-year commitments; and 3) for the experiences that each participant has during the course of their service to have some lasting effect that may hopefully encourage/persuade/influence the alumni to work in a field that ultimately supports the organization's cause.

so with TFA for example, each participant is expected to achieve some level of higher performance for their students during their 2 year service; the organization as a whole is improving education for low-income communities by getting young, bright, and passionate young teachers in their classrooms, and TFA alumni are likely to and often continue to work as teachers, in leadership roles at schools, or in education policy, and continue to promote the TFA cause. and they don't necessarily continue to work for TFA or within education, but they work towards similar goals that TFA promotes or are in their interest.

PC works in a similar fashion, but with regards to international work and foreign policy/aid/relations.

so regarding your comments about "get a real job or a real experience rather than a structured program that does nothing in 2 years": you are right that there are limited things each participant can do in only 2 years, but there is more to these programs than the mere 2 year contract. it allows people to get those real experiences you are talking about, and then to either realize that they really DON'T want to work in this field in the future, or that they really DO care about this stuff and want to work in this field and towards the mission of the program.