Why is Mayo so selective?

[drizzt3117]

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The colder and smaller, the better, for me. It's a shame that most who apply to Mayo think its location is a negative.

Well it's good for you, right?

 

[dartmed]

The colder and smaller, the better, for me. It's a shame that most who apply to Mayo think its location is a negative.

I know. The location is such a trivial factor compared to all the great factors that it has, imo. No debt? Is $100,000-180,000 of loans really worth a city?

 

[drizzt3117]

I know. The location is such a trivial factor compared to all the great factors that it has, imo. No debt? Is $100,000-180,000 of loans really worth a city?

For a lot of people, including myself, it's definitely worth it.

Premeds are funny about this, though. No one takes into account factors about location that ultimately make a much larger difference than school debt. Attending salaries have a huge range; for example, a EM doc might make ~250k in NYC and 350k in, say, San Antonio, with no state income tax, which is probably ~100-110k difference net of taxes. There are also drastic differences in malpractice insurance, often 50+k differences. Choosing a place to live comes with costs, but for me, life is too short to spend 5% or more of your life in a place you don't want to be, regardless of the finances involved.

 

[gettheleadout]

For a lot of people, including myself, it's definitely worth it.

Premeds are funny about this, though. No one takes into account factors about location that ultimately make a much larger difference than school debt. Attending salaries have a huge range; for example, a EM doc might make ~250k in NYC and 350k in, say, San Antonio, with no state income tax, which is probably ~100-110k difference net of taxes. There are also drastic differences in malpractice insurance, often 50+k differences. Choosing a place to live comes with costs, but for me, life is too short to spend 5% or more of your life in a place you don't want to be, regardless of the finances involved.

I'm sure people would take such factors into account differently when looking for a location to practice, as opposed to simply attend school. I know I would.

 

[plumhill]

hahahaha is it seriously that bad? I've lived in Columbus, Ohio almost all my life and can't stand it.

Do you go to OSU by chance?
And yeah...C-bus winters aren't bad at all, honestly. It's just disgustingly cold, except for when you have random 60-degree days in January

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm sure people would take such factors into account differently when looking for a location to practice, as opposed to simply attend school. I know I would.

My point is that other factors can affect your financial situation to a much larger degree than school debt.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I know. The location is such a trivial factor compared to all the great factors that it has, imo. No debt? Is $100,000-180,000 of loans really worth a city?

It can be.

 

[gerfan]

So I interviewed and was rejected but still pro-Mayo. (One of my interviewers said I was the best interview she had - the other turned out to be Southern Baptist and I mentioned some pro-choice work I had done ... so maybe it came down to something that simple, or maybe it was the stellar pool I was in. Will never know.)

But anyway, the curriculum and clinical setting were a big appeal. But I knew I would have chosen the school I did over Mayo had I gotten in. Only because of Rochester. And only because I am married and my husband would not have career prospects there. In a vacuum, had I gotten in, I would have gone. Mayo is special. The thing we should all be asking is why can't everywhere be more like it. Instead of applying to Mayo in droves, we should bring some of its lessons to the places we do matriculate and work in. Hate to sound overly idealistic here, but the reason we are drawn to Mayo is because medicine as a whole is dysfunctional and at Mayo (it appears) it is less so. If we can fix that, we can bring Mayo (patient-centered, seemless care) to UCSF, Harvard, UWash/WashU, not to mention all our perfectly respectable state schools etc, etc, etc ...

 

[Nymphicus]

Question #2:

Why do so many MMS students stay at Mayo for residency?

 

[semicharmed]

Great school, but I don't think it's the messiah of all med schools. Well worth applying; it's nice that their admissions criteria isn't so score-based, but I wonder how in the world they select so few applicants...There's no way they can read every person's application entirely!

 

[blkshrtdynasty]

Mayo isn't in the top 20 according to US News but yet they are considered the most selective medical school in the country. Is it because it doesn't have an associated undergrad and is purely for medicine or another reason?

Thanks.

My answer to this question, and the reason I fruitlessly threw $100 at them, is that epically massive endowment. Go on MSAR and look at the tuition cost. Now look at the average indebtedness of grads.

 

[gettheleadout]

Question #2:

Why do so many MMS students stay at Mayo for residency?

Do we know that an unusual number stay? The same idea was proposed about WashU but Chronicidal's analysis revealed that their rate of home-matching wasn't any higher than other top schools'.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Great school, but I don't think it's the messiah of all med schools. Well worth applying; it's nice that their admissions criteria isn't so score-based, but I wonder how in the world they select so few applicants...There's no way they can read every person's application entirely!

And you think any other medical school does?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Do we know that an unusual number stay? The same idea was proposed about WashU but Chronicidal's analysis revealed that their rate of home-matching wasn't any higher than other top schools'.

Right it really isn't unusual at most schools with good associated hospitals for a large chunk of their graduates to stay for residency.

 

[Verum]

Harvard has alot of inbreeding also.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Regarding the residency question, it's also worth noting that quite a few of the people who get in and matriculate are from the midwest. They used to post the number of MN applicants and matriculants. I think that's more of a function of who applies and who matriculates as opposed to who they accept (as you've all been talking about Rochester sucking, someone from the region is more likely be willing to deal with its downsides).

I think people stay for residency for a variety of reasons: because they're from the region, they like the program and resources, they like the faculty, they feel comfortable in the training environment. I know a few of the residents and they're really happy training at Mayo. It's not perfect by any sense of the word and there are definitely things the institution still needs to work on, but it does do quite a few things well.

 

[chronicidal]

Do we know that an unusual number stay? The same idea was proposed about WashU but Chronicidal's analysis revealed that their rate of home-matching wasn't any higher than other top schools'.

The answer is yes.

By my count, excluding prelim/transitional years:

This year 45% (18 of 40) of MMS students matched to Mayo. Last year 41% (19 of 46) matched to Mayo. This is relatively high - higher than the rate at which HMS students matched to all of the Harvard affiliated hospitals (MGH, BWH, BIDMC, MEEI, CHB, and CHA) combined (40% this year, 32% the year before). In comparison to another midwest school, WashU had 31% match to its home hospitals this year, and 26% the year before, 29% the year before that.

That said, these schools have different class sizes and the hospitals might have different numbers of residency spots.

 

[Nymphicus]

The answer is yes.

By my count, excluding prelim/transitional years:

This year 45% (18 of 40) of MMS students matched to Mayo. Last year 41% (19 of 46) matched to Mayo. This is relatively high - higher than the rate at which HMS students matched to all of the Harvard affiliated hospitals (MGH, BWH, BIDMC, MEEI, CHB, and CHA) combined (40% this year, 32% the year before). In comparison to another midwest school, WashU had 31% match to its home hospitals this year, and 26% the year before, 29% the year before that.

That said, these schools have different class sizes and the hospitals might have different numbers of residency spots.

Glad someone made use of the matchlist I posted. It took a while to write it all down...

With such a small class size and so many staying at Mayo, it almost seems like everybody stays there.

 

[gettheleadout]

The answer is yes.

By my count, excluding prelim/transitional years:

This year 45% (18 of 40) of MMS students matched to Mayo. Last year 41% (19 of 46) matched to Mayo. This is relatively high - higher than the rate at which HMS students matched to all of the Harvard affiliated hospitals (MGH, BWH, BIDMC, MEEI, CHB, and CHA) combined (40% this year, 32% the year before). In comparison to another midwest school, WashU had 31% match to its home hospitals this year, and 26% the year before, 29% the year before that.

That said, these schools have different class sizes and the hospitals might have different numbers of residency spots.

With such a small class size and so many staying at Mayo, it almost seems like everybody stays there.

Interesting, thanks for the data C. I have to wonder though, in response to the thought that apparently Nymphicus and I both had, if the lower n for Mayo's data is affecting the perception of the percentage that match home. Is there a way (or a need) to statistically adjust for the fact that Mayo's n is around 1/4 the size of others like Harvard's?

 

[chronicidal]

Interesting, thanks for the data C. I have to wonder though, in response to the thought that apparently Nymphicus and I both had, if the lower n for Mayo's data is affecting the perception of the percentage that match home. Is there a way (or a need) to statistically adjust for the fact that Mayo's n is around 1/4 the size of others like Harvard's?

Sounds more like a psychology question than a statistics question. What cognitive biases are at work?

I'd expect that perceptions at Mayo would simply be more accurate (i.e. close to the truth) because the class size is small enough such that every person likely knows everyone else's plans. In contrast, at other schools it's unlikely you'll be intimately familiar with the destinations of all 150 of your classmates. There's more sampling error or familiarity bias (I have no idea; didn't take psych).

If perceptions at Mayo are more accurate, and Mayo's home match rate is high, then that would account for why people think MMS matches lots of people to the Mayo!

 

[BurritoBandito]

Op - its because they have a high reputation as well as the fact that they only accept 50 students each cycle even though thousands apply. Simple as that