Why isn't my friend not getting into any medical schools?

[Richanesthesiologist]

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I have a friend who shocked me when he said he hasn't gotten into medical school after 2 cycles! Here are his stats:

S. GPA: 3.76
C. GPA: 3.85
MCAT: 505 first try, 513 2nd try

ECs:

Volunteer at hospice and low income clinic
On the executive board of a medical campaign organization
Does research
Worked for the sports arena on campus
Maybe other stuff I don't know about.
Mission trip in Haiti

His personal statement was original, but also kind of typical. It basically started with a family tragedy (car accident) and how he wanted to help his family members recover and thats why he wanted to be a doctor. He then just talked about how his ECs connected to this mission.


I don't know about his secondaries, but I know he applied to schools ranging from public flagships to less common state universities (For example: University Central Florida, University South Florida, Florida International University, Florida Atlantic University).


Any opinions on why he might not have gotten in? This just worries me cause I don't even know if I can get a 513 MCAT (Although I have some more extracurriculars than him)


Thanks.

BTW: He comes from a Southeast Asian Background.

 

[narla_hotep]

That first MCAT is pretty low, and the second is pretty average, so combined with that and the mediocre personal statement that miiight be enough to prevent an acceptance? Could have also not applied to enough schools or had poor interviews.

 

[LizzyM]

Did he get any interviews?

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

I'm assuming his qualifications were during the second cycle? What were his activities for the first cycle? When did the second MCAT happen with respect to both cycles?

 

[Gilakend]

Did he apply DO?

 

[Toutie]

Could be multiple reasons...what was his school list?
Does he have an IA? Or another red flag?
Does he have any shadowing experience?
Any other non-clinical volunteer other than Haiti?
How well written were his PS and secondaries?
When did he turn in his application? and secondaries?

 

[Robin-jay]

Sometimes friends lie. People sometimes lie. They aren't lying to be liars, but just to hide their ugly parts of their application. Maybe he really had a 507 as his best score, or maybe he had a lower GPA than he's letting up, maybe this, maybe that. I know people who told me they had excellent GPAs, only to later disclose that they had to retake many courses, or this or that. You never know. the only application we really know well are our own. Hope your friend gets in though!

 

[LavarBall]

If everything he told you is true I suspect poor list and/or timing

 

[altblue]

That first MCAT is pretty low, and the second is pretty average, so combined with that and the mediocre personal statement that miiight be enough to prevent an acceptance? Could have also not applied to enough schools or had poor interviews.

A 513 is a pretty solid score actually... I don't think a 505 -> 513 would turn off low tiers

 

[Welshman]

I’ve only had two Florida school interviews so far despite being at or above their averages, they’re not being very kind to us

 

[LnSin]

A 513 is a pretty solid score actually... I don't think a 505 -> 513 would turn off low tiers

Only on SDN is a 513 “average”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[narla_hotep]

Lol sorry maybe I'm hanging around with gunners and overachievers 😛 In undergrad I was told 513 is decent but you should shoot for 515 or above *shrugs*

 

[altblue]

TIL that 89th percentile is average

Or 90th, until the AAMC decided to dink with scores in the teens lol

 

[altblue]

Lol sorry maybe I'm hanging around with gunners and overachievers 😛 In undergrad I was told 513 is decent but you should shoot for 515 or above *shrugs*

I got around a 515 & feel like it's decent at best around here and my circle of friends. Just have to put things in perspective

OP's friend probably had different issues

 

[Richanesthesiologist]

He got a number of interviews during his 3rd cycle. Same GPA and MCAT score, he just started working at this genetic testing company.

 

[Richanesthesiologist]

First cycle he had a 505 MCAT, which I guess makes some sense. Second cycle really surprised me with not even any interview offers. 🙁

 

[mybluedog]

Maybe you can suggest for them to come seek some advice through sdn or someone. There must be something with their application that is turning off schools. It’s strange that they are getting no interviews.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

First cycle he had a 505 MCAT, which I guess makes some sense. Second cycle really surprised me with not even any interview offers. 🙁

In that case then the first cycle makes sense.

If MCAT was the the only thing that improved, then the second cycle also makes sense because spending a year only on the MCAT is a very poor judgement call.

 

[deleted480308]

It was because they don’t know how to make their own thread...it’s hard tk give you advice on someone else

 

[chemdoctor]

That first MCAT is pretty low, and the second is pretty average, so combined with that and the mediocre personal statement that miiight be enough to prevent an acceptance? Could have also not applied to enough schools or had poor interviews.

513 is average??

 

[LizzyM]

If an applicant has no interviews there is either 1) something toxic in the application--which could include poor timing of the submission (you are dead if you apply at the deadline) or 2) the school list was poorly drawn given that no school felt moved to interview the candidate (batting 0.00 in the applications at bat).

If an applicant has interviews and is turned down cold, 1) the applicant turned off the interviewers in such a way that admission was out of the question or 2) the applicant failed to rise to the top of the list in comparison to other applicants at that school.

If an applicant has interviews that result solely in waitlists, 1) the applicant failed to rise to the top of the list in comparison to other applicants or 2) the applicant was never in striking distance of the top of the list and the interview was solely a courtesy to someone whom the administration did not want to offend (faculty member, alumnus, donor, other VIP).

 

[Cardboard101]

If an applicant has no interviews there is either 1) something toxic in the application--which could include poor timing of the submission (you are dead if you apply at the deadline) or 2) the school list was poorly drawn given that no school felt moved to interview the candidate (batting 0.00 in the applications at bat).

If an applicant has interviews and is turned down cold, 1) the applicant turned off the interviewers in such a way that admission was out of the question or 2) the applicant failed to rise to the top of the list in comparison to other applicants at that school.

If an applicant has interviews that result solely in waitlists, 1) the applicant failed to rise to the top of the list in comparison to other applicants or 2) the applicant was never in striking distance of the top of the list and the interview was solely a courtesy to someone whom the administration did not want to offend (faculty member, alumnus, donor, other VIP).

I've always wondered about this. If an interview is offered and the student interviews well, would low stats preclude an acceptance despite a strong interview?

 

[LizzyM]

I've always wondered about this. If an interview is offered and the student interviews well, would low stats preclude an acceptance despite a strong interview?

In the past I've used the analogy of a broad staircase with many people on each stair. Let's say that everyone on the staircase is qualified on paper for admission but some have stronger applications than the others and are assigned to places at the top of the staircase while others are in the middle or at the bottom. The interviews can move you up from bottom to top (or bottom to middle) if you really impress the interviewers, can move you from the top to the bottom of the staircase if you really bomb the interview, or have no effect at all. When the time comes to admit applicants, the adcom starts at the top of the staircase and work their way down until the class capacity is reached (or capacity times x as some schools admit 2 or 3 times the capacity in order to end up with a great class of the right size -- Goro claims this is one of the dark arts practiced by deans of admission and it is a pretty scary, ballsy thing to play with this thing known as "yield").

 

[neoexile]

In the past I've used the analogy of a broad staircase with many people on each stair. Let's say that everyone on the staircase is qualified on paper for admission but some have stronger applications than the others and are assigned to places at the top of the staircase while others are in the middle or at the bottom. The interviews can move you up from bottom to top (or bottom to middle) if you really impress the interviewers, can move you from the top to the bottom of the staircase if you really bomb the interview, or have no effect at all. When the time comes to admit applicants, the adcom starts at the top of the staircase and worth their way down until the class capacity is reached (or capacity times x as some schools admit 2 or 3 times the capacity in order to end up with a great class of the right size -- Goro claims this is black magic practices by deans of admission and it is a pretty scary, ballsy thing to play with this thing known as "yield").

I'm still wondering how much you can tell a person from the interview. Obviously the person isn't gonna be their real self, but put their best put foot forward (as they should).

However, I wonder if you could drop a 20 dollar bill in the room and leave the room and watch with a two way camera to see if they take the bill LOL. 😛

 

[LizzyM]

I'm still wondering how much you can tell a person from the interview. Obviously the person isn't gonna be their real self, but put their best put foot forward (as they should).

However, I wonder if you could drop a 20 dollar bill in the room and leave the room and watch with a two way camera to see if they take the bill LOL. 😛

The appliants who give me the heebe-jeebes are few and far between but those are the ones that go way down the staircase when they come in for interview. Also the ones who can't put together a coherent sentence and answer in mono-syllables. Ditto those with diarrhea of the mouth who don't allow time for a follow-up question as they go on and on and on failing to read the signals that they've lost their listener.

All of the above are very rare and make up < 5% of the total pool of interviewed applicants.

The person who is far better in person than on paper is going to go to the top of the pack. I've seen someone come in with a lousy application but a compelling story and what comes through in the essays is someone who did the best they could after being dealt a bad hand. In those cases, the interview is meant to determine if the applicant has the stamina and grit to do well in med school and if what was seen on paper (compelling story) comes through in person.

 

[neoexile]

The appliants who give me the heebe-jeebes are few and far between but those are the ones that go way down the staircase when they come in for interview. Also the ones who can't put together a coherent sentence and answer in mono-syllables. Ditto those with diarrhea of the mouth who don't allow time for a follow-up question as they go on and on and on failing to read the signals that they've lost their listener.

All of the above are very rare and make up < 5% of the total pool of interviewed applicants.

The person who is far better in person than on paper is going to go to the top of the pack. I've seen someone come in with a lousy application but a compelling story and what comes through in the essays is someone who did the best they could after being dealt a bad hand. In those cases, the interview is meant to determine if the applicant has the stamina and grit to do well in med school and if what was seen on paper (compelling story) comes through in person.

I asked Goro this, but I want to ask you. Have you correlated interview performance with first year performance in medical school? Do they correlate well or is it all over the place?

 

[LizzyM]

I asked Goro this, but I want to ask you. Have you correlated interview performance with first year performance in medical school? Do they correlate well or is it all over the place?

We don't admit those who perform badly so there really isn't a correlation to be made. There are always going to be someone at the bottom of the class and it may or may not be identifable in a 20-40 minute interview or an MMI. The biggest predictor of poor performance isn't past academic performance, in most cases. Health issues in the student or in a family member (or other family stressors like job loss, home foreclosure, divorce, natural disaster) can send a student off-kilter and that isn't going to be picked up in an interview a year before.

Some of the things we are trying to screen for in the interview are going to come into play in the clinical clerkships including people who don't know how to talk and send/read non-verbal cues or behave appropriately. (Recalling someone who cleaned his fingernails while another applicant was speaking during a group interview --oopsie!)

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

"Why isn't my friend not getting into any medical schools?"

If your friend used double negatives like this on his application that may have hurt him as well.

 

[Goro]

I've always wondered about this. If an interview is offered and the student interviews well, would low stats preclude an acceptance despite a strong interview?

At my school, strong interviews can often salvage undesirable stats. These are the the of people that we want to take a risk on. It's the people who have borderline stats and "meh" interviews that will lead interviewers to say "Nice kid, but I'm really worried about that sGPA"....and onto the wait list they go. Keep in mind that my school doesn't pre-screen, and LizzyM's is up int he stratosphere, so her school can be and is more selective. In general, one has to work at bombing an interview.

I'm still wondering how much you can tell a person from the interview. Obviously the person isn't gonna be their real self, but put their best put foot forward (as they should).

You'd be surprised how much you can learn about someone in an hour long interview. LizzyM has covered most of the pathologies we screen for, and I've covered some more in this:
Goro's Guide to Interviews

 

[Mwooster]

Sometimes friends lie. People sometimes lie. They aren't lying to be liars, but just to hide their ugly parts of their application. Maybe he really had a 507 as his best score, or maybe he had a lower GPA than he's letting up, maybe this, maybe that. I know people who told me they had excellent GPAs, only to later disclose that they had to retake many courses, or this or that. You never know. the only application we really know well are our own. Hope your friend gets in though!

This, well said. I've met 5th year seniors lying about staying on for the extra year because they are "pursuing" a master's degree.

I graduated from an elite private research powerhouse for my bachelor's. Everyone was the best of the best in high school and most had huge egos.

By the time med school applications come around, it seems like everyone who didn't get accepted into a US MD school always has a 3.7 and a 90th percentile MCAT, at a minimum. I found out later down the road, either through their own confessions or other means, that for most of them, there was always a misrepresentation or downright lie regarding either their GPA or MCAT, or both.

 

[daisydukes99]

In the past I've used the analogy of a broad staircase with many people on each stair. Let's say that everyone on the staircase is qualified on paper for admission but some have stronger applications than the others and are assigned to places at the top of the staircase while others are in the middle or at the bottom. The interviews can move you up from bottom to top (or bottom to middle) if you really impress the interviewers, can move you from the top to the bottom of the staircase if you really bomb the interview, or have no effect at all. When the time comes to admit applicants, the adcom starts at the top of the staircase and work their way down until the class capacity is reached (or capacity times x as some schools admit 2 or 3 times the capacity in order to end up with a great class of the right size -- Goro claims this is one of the dark arts practiced by deans of admission and it is a pretty scary, ballsy thing to play with this thing known as "yield").

I've read a lot about what you and @Goro say about interviews. I'm concerned because while I have been accepted to 3 state schools and 1 mid tier private, I was flat out rejected (rather than deferred) from BU. I thought the interview went well. I definitely did NOT do any of the things you identify as interview killers. I keep eye contact and maintain polite back and forth conversation. Now I am waiting for news from several top 20 schools that I interviewed at earlier in the season. Needless to say the BU flat out rejection has me freaked that it was something in my interview. Here is my question. Not that I am trying to make excuses but is there ever a scenario of yield protections POST interview? My stats are way over BU's averages.

 

[LizzyM]

I've read a lot about what you and @Goro say about interviews. I'm concerned because while I have been accepted to 3 state schools and 1 mid tier private, I was flat out rejected (rather than deferred) from BU. I thought the interview went well. I definitely did NOT do any of the things you identify as interview killers. I keep eye contact and maintain polite back and forth conversation. Now I am waiting for news from several top 20 schools that I interviewed at earlier in the season. Needless to say the BU flat out rejection has me freaked that it was something in my interview. Here is my question. Not that I am trying to make excuses but is there ever a scenario of yield protections POST interview? My stats are way over BU's averages.

You got into 4 schools and were rejected by 1 school post interview. There is no telling why this might have been. I don't know if BU tends to cut people loose rather than putting them in waitlist purgatory for the next 8 months. (Some think that it is more merciful to deny admission than to waitlist with the knowledge that < 1% of the waitlist will ever get an offer.)

You are going to med school. Get over the fact that one school didn't like you enough to make you an offer and liked you enough not to string you along on a "waitlist" that will be unlikely to move.

 

[Goro]

I've read a lot about what you and @Goro say about interviews. I'm concerned because while I have been accepted to 3 state schools and 1 mid tier private, I was flat out rejected (rather than deferred) from BU. I thought the interview went well. I definitely did NOT do any of the things you identify as interview killers. I keep eye contact and maintain polite back and forth conversation. Now I am waiting for news from several top 20 schools that I interviewed at earlier in the season. Needless to say the BU flat out rejection has me freaked that it was something in my interview. Here is my question. Not that I am trying to make excuses but is there ever a scenario of yield protections POST interview? My stats are way over BU's averages.

When seats start filling up, we can get a lot pickier. But also keep in mind that people are not good judges of their interview performances.

Also keep in mind that by having a good multiple interviews, the problem is not your app if you get multiple rejections. You're in the minority....most applicants fail to get any interviews, and of those that do, they mostly get a single II or accept.

Also keep in mind that as gonnif points out, this is an Olympic style event, where a microsecond determines whether you're medal winner or not.

 

[daisydukes99]

You got into 4 schools and were rejected by 1 school post interview. There is no telling why this might have been. I don't know if BU tends to cut people loose rather than putting them in waitlist purgatory for the next 8 months. (Some think that it is more merciful to deny admission than to waitlist with the knowledge that < 1% of the waitlist will ever get an offer.)

You are going to med school. Get over the fact that one school didn't like you enough to make you an offer and liked you enough not to string you along on a "waitlist" that will be unlikely to move.

There is nothing for me to get over about regarding BU. I'm way over it. I'm trying to extrapolate and manage my expectations for what if anything it indicates regarding the 5 highly competitive schools I'm waiting to hear from over the next month or so.
So is your answer, no, yield protection is never the case once an interview has been extended?

 

[daisydukes99]

When seats start filling up, we can get a lot pickier. But also keep in mind that people are not good judges of their interview performances.

Also keep in mind that by having a good multiple interviews, the problem is not your app if you get multiple rejections. You're in the minority....most applicants fail to get any interviews, and of those that do, they mostly get a single II or accept.

Also keep in mind that as gonnif points out, this is an Olympic style event, where a microsecond determines whether you're medal winner or not.

Thank you for your answer. And yes I understand that most people are not good judges of their interview performance. However I know that I did not stammer, or overtalk or lack eye contact. Those are objective. I'm concerned that perhaps, as a senior in college, my interview skills are not as well honed, as some of my fellow, particularly non traditional applicants. I am thinking that my responses, while not offensive at all, were perhaps less sophisticated than those of others. Could this be something that pushes me out of contention? According to your last sentence, it seems that it could.

 

[LizzyM]

Thank you for your answer. And yes I understand that most people are not good judges of their interview performance. However I know that I did not stammer, or overtalk or lack eye contact. Those are objective. I'm concerned that perhaps, as a senior in college, my interview skills are not as well honed, as some of my fellow, particularly non traditional applicants. I am thinking that my responses, while not offensive at all, were perhaps less sophisticated than those of others. Could this be something that pushes me out of contention? According to your last sentence, it seems that it could.

You are correct. Those can push you out of contention. To manage expectations going forward, assume that you will be rejected or waitlisted at all schools that have not yet accepted you. If that turns out to be incorrect and you get more offers, it will be a delightful surprise.