Why lower stats for DO schools?

[Goro]

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I asked my father-in-law's urologist this and he said that he gets to both see patients and do procedures.

What is the appeal of urology?

 

[Gandyy]

I asked my father-in-law's urologist this and he said that he gets to both see patients and do procedures.

I realized after I read your answer that I asked this same question to someone a long time ago on this forum and they responded with the same answer.

Yes, a good balance of patients and procedures would be pretty great.

 

[Mad Jack]

What is the appeal of urology?

Depends I how you feel about looking at penises all day. It's similar to GI in that always working in the same potentially awful region regard.

Really though, you get to do surgery, see patients, and not deal with crazy amounts of call, all while making bank. Lifestyle is better than most surgical specialities, and you get to do a lot of non-surgical procedures as well (scopes and such). It's a great field.

 

[Gandyy]

Depends I how you feel about looking at penises all day. It's similar to GI in that always working in the same potentially awful region regard.

Really though, you get to do surgery, see patients, and not deal with crazy amounts of call, all while making bank. Lifestyle is better than most surgical specialities, and you get to do a lot of non-surgical procedures as well (scopes and such). It's a great field.

lol.

Yea seems like a good mix of procedures and patients. I have a friend who went into urology. He made a 28 on his MCAT back when a 28 was pretty good for MD so he went to a low tier MD school and matched fairly easily is what he said.

 

[Mad Jack]

lol.

Yea seems like a good mix of procedures and patients. I have a friend who went into urology. He made a 28 on his MCAT back when a 28 was pretty good for MD so he went to a low tier MD school and matched fairly easily is what he said.

I'm just not a natural born junk wrangler, so it's not really my thing. But I can totally see the appeal.

 

[Gandyy]

I'm just not a natural born junk wrangler, so it's not really my thing. But I can totally see the appeal.

Well at the very least, you arent one of those incoming M1 Ostoepathic students who are gunning for "only Derm or Plastics".

Isnt general surgery the easiest surgery residency to get though? So DO's probably dont have a lot of trouble getting that right?

Also I think the biggest appeal of Primary Care would be as you said. You get to see a little bit of everything which is interesting in itself.

 

[Henry101]

Also I think the biggest appeal of Primary Care would be as you said. You get to see a little bit of everything which is interesting in itself.

Don't forget about concierge medi$ine. I have a few friends who scored really well on boards but went into Community Family Medicine programs because they wanted to do integrative concierge medicine. It's very different from the traditional PCP model but it's gaining in popularity.

 

[Tommyguns89]

MD schools provide better opportunities, and thus will attract better applicants. That's just reality. If opportunities were equal between the two degrees, I guarantee competitiveness of the DO degree would shoot up.

I honestly had no idea what a DO was until I came to SDN, and I am interested in the more generalist specialties. So even with that interest I would have never applied DO if it werent for a random google search. I have met a lot of students interested in DO-able specialties who dont know about their existence as well. Almost everyone I know who knows they exist is applying to DO as well as MD just to be safe.

I think like 85% of it is that a lot of students done even know DO is a thing. The other 15% is people really preferring MD at all costs. I dont think the typical med school applicant is the typical SDN poster gunning for whatever the most competitive specialty is. I think most just want to be physicians and would apply DO(leading to more apps for DO schools and higher stats) if they knew that path existed.

Also some DO schools stats have really increased over the last few years. I think Touro NY has an average mcat close to 31, which is basically low tier MD. With how much more competitive it gets each year I wouldnt be surprised to see the gap close even more over the next few years.

 

[Gandyy]

I honestly had no idea what a DO was until I came to SDN, and I am interested in the more generalist specialties. So even with that interest I would have never applied DO if it werent for a random google search. I have met a lot of students interested in DO-able specialties who dont know about their existence as well. Almost everyone I know who knows they exist is applying to DO as well as MD just to be safe.

I think like 85% of it is that a lot of students done even know DO is a thing. The other 15% is people really preferring MD at all costs. I dont think the typical med school applicant is the typical SDN poster gunning for whatever the most competitive specialty is. I think most just want to be physicians and would apply DO(leading to more apps for DO schools and higher stats) if they knew that path existed.

Also some DO schools stats have really increased over the last few years. I think Touro NY has an average mcat close to 31, which is basically low tier MD. With how much more competitive it gets each year I wouldnt be surprised to see the gap close even more over the next few years.

Yea I just want to be a physician as well. MD schools allow more opportunities, but if not so be it.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I'll just put it this way. We've got a huge surgical club. Like, well over 20+ members. Last year, we had zero general surgery matches, and four specialty surgery matches total. Most of those people end up going into EM, IM, etc at the end of the day. Same goes for many of the other major interest groups- plenty of people want to do derm, or rads, or whatever, but we get one to two matches in each per year out of well over a dozen people. And the remainder end up largely in primary care. This isn't to say that it's impossible to specialize as a DO, merely that many, many of those that would ideally specialize end up in primary care. Asking around, I'd say that 30% or so of my class would prefer primary care, while over 60% end up there. At an MD school, you need to do everything wrong to end up in primary care if you don't want to be there. At a DO school, you often need to do everything right to avoid ending up in it.

I say all of this as a person who's got a strong interest in primary care, mind you. I just know a lot of my classmates will end up sorely disappointed come match day, unless they have some sort of revelation that they wanted to be PCPs all along come third year.

Since you are an actual med student who went through it, do you think it is the DO brand holding these people back or their step scores? I understand people not getting derm or rads or surgical sub specialties, but I was under the impression that if you get competitive scores you could get general surgery. Either way, good thing I dont want to do surgery.

 

[Mad Jack]

Since you are an actual med student who went through it, do you think it is the DO brand holding these people back or their step scores? I understand people not getting derm or rads or surgical sub specialties, but I was under the impression that if you get competitive scores you could get general surgery. Either way, good thing I dont want to do surgery.

It's the brand. General surgery has gotten incredibly competitive. My school used to have two or three GS matches, now we're down to zero, despite two dozen or so people trying to go into GS. With most of the AOA programs likely to shrink or close, I don't see that situation improving. Even in the not as competitive specialties, being a DO limits you. There are several programs in my home state in my uncompetitive fields of interest that flat out refuse to consider DOs.

 

[Tommyguns89]

Haven't a clue. My Primary Care colleagues love their patients and being Primary Care docs.

Im just premed, but from sh

It's the brand. General surgery has gotten incredibly competitive. My school used to have two or three GS matches, now we're down to zero, despite two dozen or so people trying to go into GS. With most of the AOA programs likely to shrink or close, I don't see that situation improving. Even in the not as competitive specialties, being a DO limits you. There are several programs in my home state in my uncompetitive fields of interest that flat out refuse to consider DOs.

Do you mind sharing your state(or pming me if you dont want to share publicly)? What about in relatively rural areas in the north east(thats where I eventually want to settle down)? Do you think the situation there would be any better for the non competitive specialties?

 

[Mad Jack]

Im just premed, but from sh


Do you mind sharing your state(or pming me if you dont want to share publicly)? What about in relatively rural areas in the north east(thats where I eventually want to settle down)? Do you think the situation there would be any better for the non competitive specialties?

I'll answer this tomorrow. Too tired to do it on a phone tonight, but the short answer is I'm also in the northeast and it's more difficult.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Because people undervalue D.O schools.. Also because D.O is not as well known. Heck, I didn't realize D.O even existed until like 10th grade or something.. Most people think doctors are M.Ds and that is it.
oh and then this...
On SDN for example many folks would tell a lower stats applicant to go D.O.. That just undervalues D.O, and makes it seem as if they aren't good enough for M.D and D.O is inferior.
If people stopped doing that, and D.O schools got a better reputation things would change.
Personally I wouldn't want to go D.O because I'm not too interested in the whole manual medicine concept.. (I've never done it or seen results so my judgement maybe wrong, but hey that's just me..)
For those who don't know what I'm referring to, see the link below.
https://www.dmu.edu/do/program-strengths/osteopathic-manual-medicine-omm/

 

[tennerd]

It's the brand. General surgery has gotten incredibly competitive. My school used to have two or three GS matches, now we're down to zero, despite two dozen or so people trying to go into GS. With most of the AOA programs likely to shrink or close, I don't see that situation improving. Even in the not as competitive specialties, being a DO limits you. There are several programs in my home state in my uncompetitive fields of interest that flat out refuse to consider DOs.

that sounds dismal, but i believe the top DO schools fare alright. as an example DMU (i believe is a pretty good DO school) seems to send quite a bit to surgery + surgery subspecialties. it has sent 52/~660 of it's students in the 3 recent match years to ortho/opthalmo/ent/general/urology/surgery prelim.

i wish more schools posted their full match list like DMU does.

 

[Mad Jack]

that sounds dismal, but i believe the top DO schools fare alright. DMU (i believe is a pretty good DO school) seems to send quite a bit to surgery + surgery subspecialties. it has sent 52/~660 of it's students in the 3 recent match years to ortho/opthalmo/ent/general/urology/surgery prelim.

Remove surgery prelim and AOA programs if you want to find out a good estimate for the year you'll be matching. Prelims have been called the Road to Nowhere for a reason, and many AOA programs will soon close.

 

[tennerd]

Remove surgery prelim and AOA programs if you want to find out a good estimate for the year you'll be matching. Prelims have been called the Road to Nowhere for a reason, and many AOA programs will soon close.

well it's down to 49/~660 by excluding surgery prelim. i thought one big hurdle left for DO is that there are residencies that won't even look at DO applicants. i assume you believe the merger will hurt DOs more than it helps (assuming AOA closures are related to the merger)?

 

[Mad Jack]

well it's down to 49/~660 by excluding surgery prelim. i thought one big hurdle left for DO is that there are residencies that won't even look at DO applicants. i assume you believe the merger will hurt DOs more than it helps (assuming AOA closures are related to the merger)?

Most of those DO categorical surgery matches are no doubt to AOA programs. The ACGME has much higher standards for number of surgeries, number of procedures performed, and level of surgeries performed that most AOA programs will be unable to meet. So subtract out the AOA programs as well and only include ACGME if you want a realistic picture.

 

[Henry101]

Remove surgery prelim and AOA programs if you want to find out a good estimate for the year you'll be matching. Prelims have been called the Road to Nowhere for a reason, and many AOA programs will soon close.

AOA programs will not close. Some will shrink, yes.
Residencies are a huge financial investment and liability. Check out the bottom link that lists all the new residencies/fellowships. These PDs new about the coming merger and just modified their programs to meet those standards. If you think PDs are just going to sit around and watch their programs close and lose the funding you're being disingenuous.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/Pages/new-aoa-approved-ogme-programs.aspx

 

[tennerd]

Most of those DO categorical surgery matches are no doubt to AOA programs. The ACGME has much higher standards for number of surgeries, number of procedures performed, and level of surgeries performed that most AOA programs will be unable to meet. So subtract out the AOA programs as well and only include ACGME if you want a realistic picture.

inferring from your belief that these spots will disappear, you believe that the merger is bad. do you think there is any benefit for the DOs in the merger?

 

[Mad Jack]

inferring from your belief that these spots will disappear, you believe that the merger is bad. do you think there is any benefit for the DOs in the merger?

I never said the merger was bad. I'd rather have five good programs than fifty poor ones.

The benefit to future DOs is non-existent at current. For former AOA grads, the advantage is fellowships and directorships. For future DO grads, the advantage will be that DOs will hopefully become more equal in the match. Those in the in between period get neither the equality nor the fellowships. We just get worse career prospects. Not doomsday bad, but worse than before the merger. But that's just my two cents.

 

[Mad Jack]

AOA programs will not close. Some will shrink, yes.
Residencies are a huge financial investment and liability. Check out the bottom link that lists all the new residencies/fellowships. These PDs new about the coming merger and just modified their programs to meet those standards. If you think PDs are just going to sit around and watch their programs close and lose the funding you're being disingenuous.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/Pages/new-aoa-approved-ogme-programs.aspx

You are clearly unaware of the massive difference in program requirements between AOA and ACGME residencies. Read the requirements for each on surgery and get back to me on how a community hospital with just over a hundred beds can meet ACGME standards. I did a lot of research, because my *** is on the line next year, not yours. So unlike you, I know how screwed many of these programs are, in many different fields. The AOA won't even let many of them participate in next year's match for this very reason. It isn't the end of the world, but trust me when I say that a lot of doors are closing. Mark my words, 25% of AOA programs will close, the majority of which will be clustered in competitive specialties.

 

[Henry101]

You are clearly unaware of the massive difference in program requirements between AOA and ACGME residencies. Read the requirements for each on surgery and get back to me on how a community hospital with just over a hundred beds can meet ACGME standards. I did a lot of research, because my *** is on the line next year, not yours. So unlike you, I know how screwed many of these programs are, in many different fields. The AOA won't even let many of them participate in next year's match for this very reason. It isn't the end of the world, but trust me when I say that a lot of doors are closing. Mark my words, 25% of AOA programs will close, the majority of which will be clustered in competitive specialties.

hmm okay. Thanks for correcting me then. I'll definitely look into it.
Why would these hospitals agree to make the investment and start these programs if they are just going to be shut down in the next few years?

 

[tennerd]

I never said the merger was bad. I'd rather have five good programs than fifty poor ones.

The benefit to future DOs is non-existent at current. For former AOA grads, the advantage is fellowships and directorships. For future DO grads, the advantage will be that DOs will hopefully become more equal in the match. Those in the in between period get neither the equality nor the fellowships. We just get worse career prospects. Not doomsday bad, but worse than before the merger. But that's just my two cents.

it seems like DOs are consistently becoming more and more ACGME match in terms of total match (i think) and the merger will obviously accelerate this. would you say its a trade of AOA competitive specialties for ACGME-standard less-competitive specialties.

 

[allantois]

An AOA trained FP and an ACGME trained FP are at the end of the day just that, an FP. Were people dying at the hands of AOA trained surgeons? No? Then, no need to crack down on AOA programs. ACGME should have instead addressed the problem with nurses, who are now eyeing on independent dermatological cosmetic practices.

 

[cryhavoc]

I have a few specialties in mind, and I've been assured they are cake for MD's to get into, and very reasonable for DO's. I applied to both MD and DO programs. DO is my back-up plan. If I'm lucky enough to get into either, I'm going to med school and becoming a doctor.

If someone told me, "There is an extremely low chance you will get that specialty going DO," I would retake the MCAT and study for a year, and do a ton of things to up my stats.

At the end of the day, I'm a poor person in debt and every year that passes, the debt grows. If I can get to my preferred career more quickly via DO, and start paying back the debt, I'll be a happy camper. If you are gunning for MD only, I bet you don't apply until your stats are MD perfect. Hence the higher average scores.

I like DO philosophy so it wouldn't sting to go that route but I'd go MD in a heart-beat if I get into one, just because it makes life easier, not because I think my education is going to be superior.

 

[Henry101]

I have a few specialties in mind, and I've been assured they are cake for MD's to get into, and very reasonable for DO's. I applied to both MD and DO programs. DO is my back-up plan. If I'm lucky enough to get into either, I'm going to med school and becoming a doctor.

If someone told me, "There is an extremely low chance you will get that specialty going DO," I would retake the MCAT and study for a year, and do a ton of things to up my stats.

At the end of the day, I'm a poor person in debt and every year that passes, the debt grows. If I can get to my preferred career more quickly via DO, and start paying pack the debt, I'll be a happy camper. If you are gunning for MD only, I bet you don't apply until your stats are MD perfect. Hence the higher average scores.

I like DO philosophy so it wouldn't sting to go that route but I'd go MD in a heart-beat if I get into one, just because it makes life easier, not because I think my education is going to be superior.

ugh you literally stole the words out of my mouth. Poor college grad here.
The only thing I would add is that I really enjoy bench research and would have to sacrifice that passion if I go DO. But, besides that, totally agree with you dude. You aren't alone.

 

[tennerd]

ugh you literally stole the words out of my mouth. Poor college grad here.
The only thing I would add is that I really enjoy bench research and would have to sacrifice that passion if I go DO. But, besides that, totally agree with you dude. You aren't alone.

if you care so much about bench research, why don't you get a phd or go dual degree like DO/MS

 

[Henry101]

if you care so much about bench research, why don't you get a phd or go dual degree like DO/MS

Fair question
I don't want a PhD because, while I acknowledge that many PhDs work in a clinical environment, I believe my talents are best suited to serve in the capacity of a clinician. I love working with people of all ages and establishing relationships with patients.
Many MS programs offered by DO schools (PCOM comes to my mind at the moment) aren't funded by NIH grants and, as a result, it really limits your work. It's also a lot harder to publish in big journals if your project is not NIH funded. Also, due to the lack of funding, you have to pay a considerable amount of tuition on top of your medschool tuition to pay for your work (which I think is ridiculous). I think MSU had MS/PHD programs that are NIH funded.

HOWEVER, I do know a med school student at Touro-NY that spent three months doing research at Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, which is like the premiere cancer research center in country. So I'm sure that there are opportunities available for those that look hard enough.