Why no more UPMC rotations for l e c o m?

[Igor4sugry]

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Heard recently from current students that rotations with UPMC Mercy have been dropped by l e c o m. This is quite unfortunate news because upmc rotations were by far the best part of the school. You were in a teaching institution, working with good residents and there were tons of options (from wards to trauma surgery to anesthesia and subspecialties such as pulm, ID, neuro). There were also very good rotations with Family Med at UPMC Shadyside.

Does this have to do with them receiving scholarship money from UPMCs competitor Highmark?
And of course the feud between UPMC and Highmark for past 5 years.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...in-rural-areas-of-pennsylvania-201930751.html

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303812904577295901619123904

Or does it have to do with other medical schools in Pittsburgh competing (and probably paying) for rotations? When I was there we were competing with Drexel, Temple med students and Chatham university PA students. U of Pitt med students never went to UPMC Mercy as they had great rotations at Presby/Shadyside.

In any case, its probably not fun for Erie and Seton Hill students to hear this as the region is over saturated with students as it is, and the only other sites are Forbes Regional and Allegheny General where you will work with residents. And at AGH you have Temple students to compete with. All other sites are non-resident sites.

 

[SurgeDO]

it was my understanding that LECOM does not pay any of its clerkship hospitals (i could be wrong). if so, this was probably why LECOM was dropped--as they should be.

 

[painmd87]

Per a school meeting: UPMC asked the school to pay $2,800 per student per rotation.

Per a UPMC attending: School asked UPMC to pay THEM $1,000 per student per rotation.

The truth is probably somewhere in between, but I think the Highmark decision played a big role. The children just can't get along anymore.

 

[Dr Yiot]

from what i heard it had nothing to do with highmark(who knows the truth with that) and everything to do with money. the figure i heard was 1900 per rotations per student and UPMC was unwilling to negotiate with lecom on a price. UPMC was firm on 1900

 

[Dr Yiot]

it was my understanding that LECOM does not pay any of its clerkship hospitals (i could be wrong). if so, this was probably why LECOM was dropped--as they should be.

just to play a little devils advocate. Lecom is not the only school that doesnt pay for rotations. If what your saying held truth than a lot of schools would lose a lot of their affiliates.

My question is, what is UPMC going to do with the residencies which are LECOM sponsored. Mainly EM and Neurology at Hamot.

Lecom didnt just lose mercy. it lost ALL of UPMC

 

[Igor4sugry]

So UPMC Hamot is off limits too? What about their neurology program that is run by Dr. Esper?

Knowing how critical UPMC rotations are in Pittsburgh area they could have invested into a limited number of spots. Also the quality of those rotations was exceptional as well. You rotated with knowledgeable attendings, there were lectures, etc. Its a shame such education was lost. There are many alumni who went through those rotations and matched into respective residencies there and gained a lot of knowledge.

Where are these students going to rotate now? There is no way Forbes and Allegheny General can absorb them. I heard Temple was actually paying Forbes for rotations (and probably to AGH).

 

[SurgeDO]

just to play a little devils advocate. Lecom is not the only school that doesnt pay for rotations. If what your saying held truth than a lot of schools would lose a lot of their affiliates.

My question is, what is UPMC going to do with the residencies which are LECOM sponsored. Mainly EM and Neurology at Hamot.

Lecom didnt just lose mercy. it lost ALL of UPMC

this is limited to osteopathic medical education. correct me if i am wrong, but i cannot name an allopathic school that does not pay the attendings and hospitals that teach their students.

without money, what is motivating these attendings to teach medical students? the "love of medicine and teaching" only goes so far...especially when you just got done working a 36 hour shift and haven't seen your family in weeks. as an attending, what would motivate you to teach medical students? it would be a lot more convenient to just blow a 3rd or 4th year off without a contract.

i personally feel that this is the greatest flaw in the osteopathic system. i think this is also indirectly related to the lack of osteopathic residencies. granted that OGME is funded by medicare, why would a hospital want to establish a residency program for an osteopathic medical school that refuses to pay them?

MSUCOM for example has one of the most extensive graduate medical education systems. the school has multiple residencies in nearly every (minus integrated) specialty and has great rotations. i would be willing to bet this has something to do with the fact that these GME/clerkship hospitals are funded by MSUCOM.

 

[NurWollen]

Why do people write l e c o m? I've never seen anyone write a z c o m or
k c o m. OP is not the first person Ive seen wrote LECOM as l e c o m.

 

[Textbookversion]

Why do people write l e c o m? I've never seen anyone write a z c o m or
k c o m. OP is not the first person Ive seen wrote LECOM as l e c o m.

I think they've got a logo with dots in between the letters, I believe I saw some kind of commercial on youtube someone linked. I don't know that any other school's letterhead uses the acronym like they do.

 

[Kevin Baker]

without money, what is motivating these attendings to teach medical students?

An attending I rotated with for an elective shared his reasons out of the blue which was sort of weird but educational. CME is a biggie especially for DOs. A separate attending was mentioning how hard it is to get that Category 1-A credit without flying all over the country attending and spending lots of money/time. I don't know how the system works but apparently teaching rotating students gets you those top tier hours.

A lot do it to giveback to the community, learn what they're teaching us in schools, etc. My school happens to pay attendings and he shared the number, which I can't remember, but it was pretty paltry. Enough for a nice meal or two if I recall.

 

[calvinhobbes]

.

 

[drdre4]

a

 

[user3]

I have to agree with surge...MSU's success speaks for itself.

 

[Dr Yiot]

this is limited to osteopathic medical education. correct me if i am wrong, but i cannot name an allopathic school that does not pay the attendings and hospitals that teach their students.

without money, what is motivating these attendings to teach medical students? the "love of medicine and teaching" only goes so far...especially when you just got done working a 36 hour shift and haven't seen your family in weeks. as an attending, what would motivate you to teach medical students? it would be a lot more convenient to just blow a 3rd or 4th year off without a contract.

i personally feel that this is the greatest flaw in the osteopathic system. i think this is also indirectly related to the lack of osteopathic residencies. granted that OGME is funded by medicare, why would a hospital want to establish a residency program for an osteopathic medical school that refuses to pay them?

MSUCOM for example has one of the most extensive graduate medical education systems. the school has multiple residencies in nearly every (minus integrated) specialty and has great rotations. i would be willing to bet this has something to do with the fact that these GME/clerkship hospitals are funded by MSUCOM.

i never said i disagree with you. I was just saying that LECOM is not the only school that does this.

I will say however that I disagree with your thoughts on that no allopathic institution does not pay for rotations. i bet there is some.

that said, I feel that the attending should be compensated.

 

[preDoGuy24]

An attending I rotated with for an elective shared his reasons out of the blue which was sort of weird but educational. CME is a biggie especially for DOs. A separate attending was mentioning how hard it is to get that Category 1-A credit without flying all over the country attending and spending lots of money/time. I don't know how the system works but apparently teaching rotating students gets you those top tier hours.

A lot do it to giveback to the community, learn what they're teaching us in schools, etc. My school happens to pay attendings and he shared the number, which I can't remember, but it was pretty paltry. Enough for a nice meal or two if I recall.

I have heard the exact opposite from my Surg attending (former DO surg PD, clinical professor etc.) basically said the CME for taking students/residents didn;t count as 1-A, but 1-B and or whatever type was considered the lower level CME. Kind of blows for the attendings that take us and arent paid (my school even tried to make him fill out and send in the request form though he had done several thousand hours of resident/Med student preceptoring without being paid.


Why LECOM lost UPMC??

Combination of $ and not being able to play nice with anyone...Not really wanting to go into more when I am still a med student-let's just say it is frustrating to lose some of the schools best rotations while simultaneously being confused what my 30+thousand in tuition is paying for if it isnt securing me opportunities to rotate at quality institutions.

 

[EMDO2018]

Per a school meeting: UPMC asked the school to pay $2,800 per student per rotation.

Per a UPMC attending: School asked UPMC to pay THEM $1,000 per student per rotation.

The truth is probably somewhere in between, but I think the Highmark decision played a big role. The children just can't get along anymore.

So. In the clinical setting are med students more of a burden than as asset? Do any hospitals actually pay to have medical school rotate through?

 

[NYUyankeezfan]

I'm currently an MS-1 at LECOM-Erie. From what I've heard, yeah it could've been the money or even the feud with Highmark, but people have told me that UPMC dropped LECOM students because they didn't like the students who were there. I honestly find that hard to believe, since LECOM students seem to have a great reputation everywhere else. It was probably because of the fact that LECOM refuses to pay for rotations, but I believe most DO programs do NOT pay for rotation spots (please correct me if I'm wrong) so they're trying to make up for it by getting spots elsewhere. Hopefully this will be resolved by the time I register for rotation spots!

 

[preDoGuy24]

It's definitely not because they didn't like our students, lecom has multiple residencies through upmc hospitals. Don't expect anything to be resolved by your third or fourth year- do expect to get dropped from multiple rotations unless you go to a clinical campus-even then I know a lot of people who have been dropped consistently.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[evilbooyaa]

but people have told me that UPMC dropped LECOM students because they didn't like the students who were there. I honestly find that hard to believe, since LECOM students seem to have a great reputation everywhere else. It was probably because of the fact that LECOM refuses to pay for rotations, but I believe most DO programs do NOT pay for rotation spots (please correct me if I'm wrong) so they're trying to make up for it by getting spots elsewhere. Hopefully this will be resolved by the time I register for rotation spots!

I've worked with quite a few LECOM students during my clinical rotations. Most of them are bright and hard-working. LECOM's standards for amount of hours and busy work required seemed higher than it was for my medical school. However, you guys do have that insane system of having multiple shelf exams in one day, and the shelf exam for one rotation may be months after that rotation ends.

I don't know about places that pay for rotations, but I honestly hope that part of the reason we still pay full tuition as MS3/MS4s is so that my school is willing to pay hospitals to take students. I know (some of) you LECOMers have to find and schedule your own 3rd and 4th year rotations, which to me is absolutely outrageous.

 

[Bones DO]

being confused what my 30+thousand in tuition is paying for if it isnt securing me opportunities to rotate at quality institutions.

^^^
I feel like tuition should decrease for 3rd and especially 4th year of D.O. school since we set up so many of the rotations ourselves. Being that is not the case, LECOM and all schools should be wililng to pay for great rotations like the ones you guys are losing, sorry that is happening.

 

[hallowmann]

This is a sucky subject. Personally, I was disappointed about this, because I was looking forward to going to UPMC sites, but I knew this going in. Most likely it was a combination of $$ and the UPMC vs Highmark feud. I know a decent amount of people in the UPMC family, and obviously I heard the official LECOM statement. I'm pretty sure that LECOM is the ONLY med school that did not pay UPMC to rotate there. All the other programs (all MD) do pay UPMC some small amount of money. UPMC, probably due to the increasing connection between LECOM and Highmark/West Penn Allegheny, decided to try and charge LECOM a relatively outrageous amount per student per rotation. LECOM's official policy is not to pay anything for rotations, so that's that.

It does make you wonder what the tuition is being charged for 3rd and 4th year, especially since SGA plays a pretty big role in dividing up the clinical rotations, and there are less than a handful of individuals on staff in the clinical office. I'm guessing a lot goes to setting up connections with hospitals that will actually let students rotate for free. Elmira comes to mind here. Basically LECOM has employees whose primary purpose is to take hospitals with little or no academic programs, and make a plan/expand them to get government funding for new residencies, which I guess is good, because it means more residencies and explains why LECOM is a huge contributor to the most recent AOA GME expansion. The agreement I assume is that they then allow LECOM students to rotate for free (or possibly even pay LECOM).

LECOM also guarantees that those spots get filled by forcing students that have below a 2.5 GPA by the end of 1st year to rotate at either the Elmira site or the community site in Erie. The ability to actually have a choice where you will rotate is a pretty big motivator to do well 1st year. I doubt the LECOM-UPMC relationship will be fixed any time soon, but I'm hoping that some things will relax a bit so that at least maybe students willing to pay a bit extra could rotate at UPMC sites on electives.

As far as schools not paying or getting paid for rotations, I personally think it depends. Its understandable for big academic sites to expect to be paid, but I recall that big sites in Indiana were paying MUCOM tons of money to secure contracts for their students to rotate there. That's mainly because those sites didn't have many med students to begin with and most of their residencies were going either unfilled or filled only by FMGs. For them, it seemed like a way to secure more US grad applicants. As far as attendings getting paid, I'd be surprised if the money trickled down through the system. I know people that were getting paid by schools for students to rotate, then "policy changes" resulted in them no longer seeing ANY money, and it going straight to the institution. With smaller setups, I get providing stipends and obviously CME credit (regardless), but the money tends not to reach the actual people affected, and even if it does, its usually a fraction of the original fee.

I completely understand a school negotiating with hospital systems, and they should, because its one of the things that keeps tuition down or money in the facilities. That said, LECOM is a money-making machine, and they have obviously grown so fast in spite of the really low tuition because of policies like not paying for rotations. Unfortunately it screws us over in situations like this, but I'm hoping UH will still be around when I rotate, and who knows there may be more.

^^^
I feel like tuition should decrease for 3rd and especially 4th year of D.O. school since we set up so many of the rotations ourselves. Being that is not the case, LECOM and all schools should be wililng to pay for great rotations like the ones you guys are losing, sorry that is happening.

Over here, people say you are really paying $60,000/yr tuition for 1st and 2nd year, but the school likes to spread it out over all 4 years. I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse...

Why do people write l e c o m? I've never seen anyone write a z c o m or k c o m. OP is not the first person Ive seen wrote LECOM as l e c o m.

With regards to this: I say LECOM. Most people here (at the school and in western PA) use LECOM. Technically the logo is something like "L|E|C|O|M" where I think the lines represent the four tenants/pillars (get it!) of Osteopathic medicine.

I would also like to say that I really like LECOM, and would choose it again (but part of that is being ridiculously close to my family and the tuition).