Why not limit your numbers?

[AngryBird69]

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With regards to declining salaries, why haven't anesthesiologists limited their numbers like the neurosurgeons and dermatologists have?

Also I hate to sound like an elitist but wouldn't it help the field to make it more competitive, again, like your colleagues above? For example, I know of at least 2 people that matched into anes. who I are objectively terrible students (<210 step 1, unsatisfactories in xscript, etc)

Just genuinely curious and not trying to stir up anything or be a d-bag. Any thoughts from residents and attendings would be awesome. 👍

 

[Stank811]

If those students are as bad as you say they are...first I am surprised they matched and second I would be surprised if they made it through the program. I fully support programs weeding out those residents who do not fit anesthesia.

 

[AngryBird69]

If those students are as bad as you say they are...first I am surprised they matched and second I would be surprised if they made it through the program. I fully support programs weeding out those residents who do not fit anesthesia.

Yes they both were that bad. To be more specific, one of them had a 208 with a U and an MU in his transcript. The other one failed neuro as an M1 and had a 215.

I'm not sitting here trying to be judge and jury of any med student; I know we all work hard to be where we are. I also know these two cases are extremes but those stats would not even get you a nicely written rejection email for some specialties.

 

[deleted126335]

Residency programs love having residents-Cheap labor. 50K for 80 hrs/wk of an anesthesia provider.

Having to replace that at market rates with attendings or CRNAs or AAs doesn't help the dept budget.

Almost everyone acts in what they perceive to be in their own best interest. Not the best interest of the larger group.

 

[Bertelman]

I scored a 192 on Step 1. Step 2 was my highlight- somewhere between 210 and 220. You don't wanna know what I got on Step 3.

I couldn't give a **** what anyone here thinks, 'cause I've made it now. I also couldn't give a **** about that test, which had far more regurgitation and Gyn and Path than I ever care to know.

I also know all those Ortho guys scoring 230+ on USMLE are lumpheads. That test doesn't mean squat.

What I know is this: I can formulate and perform a good, safe anesthetic, I am technically skilled, and I fit in with my colleagues and coworkers. Most of all, I have people skills. I am good at dealing with people.

 

[lane]

I scored a 192 on Step 1. Step 2 was my highlight- somewhere between 210 and 220. You don't wanna know what I got on Step 3.

I couldn't give a **** what anyone here thinks, 'cause I've made it now. I also couldn't give a **** about that test, which had far more regurgitation and Gyn and Path than I ever care to know.

I also know all those Ortho guys scoring 230+ on USMLE are lumpheads. That test doesn't mean squat.

What I know is this: I can formulate and perform a good, safe anesthetic, I am technically skilled, and I fit in with my colleagues and coworkers. Most of all, I have people skills. I am good at dealing with people.

 

[lane]

In all seriousness though, I completely agree with Bert. I was no all-star on the USMLE exams but scored in the 75-90th percentiles on my ITEs. I won multiple resident awards and got a great job in my first choice city. I am a confident and capable anesthesiologist, despite what my ability to regurgitate useless esoterica from the first two years of med school may suggest.

 

[IDBasco]

😆

 

[seinfeld]

The only people who compare exam scores are those that have no experience and nothing else to compare. I, like others who have posted here, did not blow out the MCAT, of Step 1 but that is meaningless now.

The concept of comparing exam scores is what bothers me about training. So many residents/students concentrate on getting a "good" score and care less about the training and knowledge they acquire and how that is the most important thing you can do to prepare yourself for a career in medicine. IE put more emphasis on staying late for an interesting case or choosing to take the room with the tougher case than going home to read a book.

As far as why don't we train less Anesthesiologists well... if we wanted to create more of vacuum for CRNAs we could do that. The difference is that surgeons and patients will need surgery a rate independent of Anesthesiologist availability.

 

[saratoga733]

With regards to declining salaries, why haven't anesthesiologists limited their numbers like the neurosurgeons and dermatologists have?

Also I hate to sound like an elitist but wouldn't it help the field to make it more competitive, again, like your colleagues above? For example, I know of at least 2 people that matched into anes. who I are objectively terrible students (<210 step 1, unsatisfactories in xscript, etc)

Just genuinely curious and not trying to stir up anything or be a d-bag. Any thoughts from residents and attendings would be awesome. 👍

with an aging population there will be a need for MORE anesthesiologists, not less. as with most specialties with a good number of slots, some candidates are not going to be ideal. now, whether subpar board scores or an less than satisfactory grade on a rotation reflects one's potential to a good clinician that is clearly debatable. in anycase, the ones that can't cut the mustard get weeded out in residency. happens all the time. is anesthesia derm, ent, ortho, etc in terms of competitiveness?? no, but you probably knew that before posting. so if that is your point-- point made and taken.

btw, i blew you out of the waters with my step one score. don't feel bad, i hope you realize 3 numbers does not a doctor make.

 

[jwk]

I also know all those Ortho guys scoring 230+ on USMLE are lumpheads. That test doesn't mean squat.

There is a fracture.....I must fix it.....there is a fracture.....I must fix it.....

 

[PinchandBurn]

The only people who compare exam scores are those that have no experience and nothing else to compare. I, like others who have posted here, did not blow out the MCAT, of Step 1 but that is meaningless now.

The concept of comparing exam scores is what bothers me about training. So many residents/students concentrate on getting a "good" score and care less about the training and knowledge they acquire and how that is the most important thing you can do to prepare yourself for a career in medicine. IE put more emphasis on staying late for an interesting case or choosing to take the room with the tougher case than going home to read a book.

As far as why don't we train less Anesthesiologists well... if we wanted to create more of vacuum for CRNAs we could do that. The difference is that surgeons and patients will need surgery a rate independent of Anesthesiologist availability.

I didnt have the best MCAT/USMLE scores either. Got into a good Anesth program and then went to the best fellowship in the country. How? I took it as an opportunity (and a lot of luck) to get into Anesthesia. I worked VERY hard in residency. I proved to myself and others that I could hang with the guys/gals that scored >230. My ITE's were very good. In fact half way into my training my PD had told me that based on my USMLE scores I shouldnt be getting what I was getting in the ITE. The bottom line is that I worked at it and read almost every day.

Technical skills and getting along with people is important for our daily work. I'm not discounting tests, as I think they are VERY important as well.

 

[AngryBird69]

As far as why don't we train less Anesthesiologists well... if we wanted to create more of vacuum for CRNAs we could do that. The difference is that surgeons and patients will need surgery a rate independent of Anesthesiologist availability.

Thank you. I guess this would be the answer I was looking for.

Just wanna make it clear I never said scores make a good clinician, Saratoga, and, no, I didnt want to make the point that X specialty is more competitive than anesthesiology. My whole point in posting originally was to find out why the specialty with arguably the strongest PAC has not decided to play the supply and demand game and I got my answer.

Thanks to everyone for your replies. After being in OB surgery for the past 3 weeks and seeing what you guys do, I am strongly considering anesthesia. Seeing the patient come out of their sleep and telling them everything went great was an awesome experience.

 

[Bertelman]

With regards to declining salaries, why haven't anesthesiologists limited their numbers like the neurosurgeons and dermatologists have?

Because there is no alternative to a neurosurgeon or dermatologist. They can play that game. We cannot.

 

[Bertelman]

In all seriousness though, I completely agree with Bert. I was no all-star on the USMLE exams but scored in the 75-90th percentiles on my ITEs. I won multiple resident awards and got a great job in my first choice city. I am a confident and capable anesthesiologist, despite what my ability to regurgitate useless esoterica from the first two years of med school may suggest.

Glad to hear that's working out for you.

 

[seinfeld]

I didnt have the best MCAT/USMLE scores either. Got into a good Anesth program and then went to the best fellowship in the country. How? I took it as an opportunity (and a lot of luck) to get into Anesthesia. I worked VERY hard in residency. I proved to myself and others that I could hang with the guys/gals that scored >230. My ITE's were very good. In fact half way into my training my PD had told me that based on my USMLE scores I shouldnt be getting what I was getting in the ITE. The bottom line is that I worked at it and read almost every day.

Technical skills and getting along with people is important for our daily work. I'm not discounting tests, as I think they are VERY important as well.

I am not saying scores are meaningless but what want residents out there to know is that when it comes to hiring people i never ask about exam scores (I assume you will become boarded and if you dont youll probably be let go). I care about ability and attitude.

 

[Mman]

With regards to declining salaries, why haven't anesthesiologists limited their numbers like the neurosurgeons and dermatologists have?

Also I hate to sound like an elitist but wouldn't it help the field to make it more competitive, again, like your colleagues above? For example, I know of at least 2 people that matched into anes. who I are objectively terrible students (<210 step 1, unsatisfactories in xscript, etc)

Just genuinely curious and not trying to stir up anything or be a d-bag. Any thoughts from residents and attendings would be awesome. 👍

Is Neurosurgery competitive again? Not long ago they'd take almost anyone with a pulse. In 2003, 2 of the general surgery residents (2nd and 3rd years) at a crappy community surgery residency I rotated through were both transferring into neurosurgery programs, one at Columbia and one somewhere in the midwest. Neither had great USMLEs.

 

[AngryBird69]

Is Neurosurgery competitive again? Not long ago they'd take almost anyone with a pulse. In 2003, 2 of the general surgery residents (2nd and 3rd years) at a crappy community surgery residency I rotated through were both transferring into neurosurgery programs, one at Columbia and one somewhere in the midwest. Neither had great USMLEs.

You're right, it seems to have dropped off in competitiveness lately but historically it has been tough to get into. 90% match for AMGs last year reflects the fact that residency programs are starting to snub I/FMGs at an accelerated rate from what I've heard.

Source: http://residency.wustl.edu/Choosing/SpecDesc/Pages/Neurosurgery.aspx

 

[RxBoy]

We have residents that have scored in >250 range. Some of them are the laziest, most unmotivated and ungrateful residents in the program. 2 of them did horrible on their ITE's. They're also dull at procedures.

We also have residents in the 200 range. They are disciplined, thirsty for experience, first to enter and last to leave. Read a lot. Have excellent skills.

If I ever needed surgery, I would want the guy who is glued to my case and adamant on finishing all the way through. The other guy's step 1 isn't gonna save me from hypoxia.

 

[AngryBird69]

We have residents that have scored in >250 range. Some of them are the laziest, most unmotivated and ungrateful residents in the program. 2 of them did horrible on their ITE's. They're also dull at procedures.

We also have residents in the 200 range. They are disciplined, thirsty for experience, first to enter and last to leave. Read a lot. Have excellent skills.

If I ever needed surgery, I would want the guy who is glued to my case and adamant on finishing all the way through. The other guy's step 1 isn't gonna save me from hypoxia.

I agree. At the extreme ends of the intelligence spectrum are personality traits which are undesirable. I know someone with a 264 and they are not quite personable.

 

[gasblaster]

You're right, it seems to have dropped off in competitiveness lately but historically it has been tough to get into. 90% match for AMGs last year reflects the fact that residency programs are starting to snub I/FMGs at an accelerated rate from what I've heard.

Source: http://residency.wustl.edu/Choosing/SpecDesc/Pages/Neurosurgery.aspx

I'm sure applicants placing more emphasis on work-lifestyle balance also has a factor. A friend at one of the top neurosurgery programs told me that the average Step 1 score of the neurosurgery applicants dropped noticeably this past cycle. However, that might be attributed to emphasis on other factors like research.

 

[Skip2myLou]

hahaha.... I was thinking the same thing!

 

[Bertelman]

hahaha.... I was thinking the same thing!

For the record, that's kind of what I was going for.

 

[Skip2myLou]

For the record, that's kind of what I was going for.

noted !

 

[Skip2myLou]

For the record, that's kind of what I was going for.

btw I traveled a similar path as you stated

 

[Bertelman]

btw I traveled a similar path as you stated

Stick with it. Totally worth it.

 

[BLADEMDA]

We have residents that have scored in >250 range. Some of them are the laziest, most unmotivated and ungrateful residents in the program. 2 of them did horrible on their ITE's. They're also dull at procedures.

We also have residents in the 200 range. They are disciplined, thirsty for experience, first to enter and last to leave. Read a lot. Have excellent skills.

If I ever needed surgery, I would want the guy who is glued to my case and adamant on finishing all the way through. The other guy's step 1 isn't gonna save me from hypoxia.

These exams were never intended to be used the way Program directors have ultimately decided to utilize scores. They are pass/fail exams. In other words, they really don't reflect your ability to focus, work hard and excel in your chosen field. Ultimately, the path to success comes from within one's inner drive to Excel.

 

[cincincyreds]

These exams were never intended to be used the way Program directors have ultimately decided to utilize scores. They are pass/fail exams. In other words, they really don't reflect your ability to focus, work hard and excel in your chosen field. Ultimately, the path to success comes from within one's inner drive to Excel.

I think the USMLEs are more of a memorization type of exam. They do a nice job testing one's photographic memory, which can be useful. I think the MCAT is a test more of critical skill thinking which is totally different from the USMLE.

I think one can do pretty well on the anesthesia written board without doing well on the USMLE.

The oral boards are kind of hit or miss and random. You can ace everything written and fail the oral boards five time in a row.

 

[xf3rn4nd3sx]

Because there is no alternative to a neurosurgeon or dermatologist. They can play that game. We cannot.

I had always thought that it wouldn't be too difficult for PAs and NPs to break into derm territory.

Is Neurosurgery competitive again? Not long ago they'd take almost anyone with a pulse. In 2003, 2 of the general surgery residents (2nd and 3rd years) at a crappy community surgery residency I rotated through were both transferring into neurosurgery programs, one at Columbia and one somewhere in the midwest. Neither had great USMLEs.

It's decent; near the top, but not nearly as competitive as derm or plastics. The lifestyle just isn't there. A lot of programs are very competitive, but some lesser known ones seem to be taking almost anyone.