Why practice in the USA?

[theodore]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Is there a miniscule possibility that all this negativity about America is justified? I also got stuck in front of the tv for days after the twin tower attacks. I also felt sympathy for America,especially for the families of those people. I also couldn't possibly justify such a massacre. I also supported the campaigne in Afghanistan. And I also was against the war in Iraq. I don't see any contradiction. I see two seperate invasions, one justified and one not. The American government was lying about Iraq, and worst of all, they KNEW that they were lying.
Bellkicker, you know your wife and how she thinks about these things better than probably anyone else does, so I don't know why you should care about predictable and negative comments. If someone can't distinguish bw politics of a country and the country's citizens, that's not your problem, it'S theirs.

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by theodore
Is there a miniscule possibility that all this negativity about America is justified? I also got stuck in front of the tv for days after the twin tower attacks. I also felt sympathy for America,especially for the families of those people. I also couldn't possibly justify such a massacre. I also supported the campaigne in Afghanistan. And I also was against the war in Iraq. I don't see any contradiction. I see two seperate invasions, one justified and one not. The American government was lying about Iraq, and worst of all, they KNEW that they were lying.
Bellkicker, you know your wife and how she thinks about these things better than probably anyone else does, so I don't know why you should care about predictable and negative comments. If someone can't distinguish bw politics of a country and the country's citizens, that's not your problem, it'S theirs.

No. I believe it to be a fad among Europeans that covers their own sense of inferiority.

After all, does Europe count in the greater picture of world affairs? The US policy after WWII was essentially to eliminate Europe as a source of friction in world affairs. The US fought two world wars which were in essence European disputes at a tremendous cost of lives and money, etc... As a result, the US guaranteed Western European security in the face of the Soviet threat. This meant that a very significant amount the costs associated with providing that security were born by the US. The Europeans were taking their savings and building up the modern European welfare state. The Soviet Union collapsed and with the exception of the Western Balkans, the possibility of large scale warfare has come to and end in Europe, as European Integration has been taken to the forefront.

Better that the French and Germans argue over wine than over weapons. However, the downside is that Europe (with the exception of Britain) CANNOT project power anywhere. I offer the Balkans as an example. If it were not for the US intervening (too late in my opinion), the bloodbath would have continued until today.

IMHO, Europeans believe that everything can be solved through diplomacy and patience. This sadly, is not true, as very few states exist that keep their word (e.g. treaty obligations). Americans, on the other hand, believe that outside of a very limited number of countries, the law of the jungle rules. As a result, the US will intervene in places where it believes its security is threatened.

The reason you carp and complain, Theodore, is because you (as a European) are powerless to do anything. You believe in the illusion of the UN, which to Americans is essentially a dictator's club where the dictators suddenly discover democracy.

Regarding the future of Europe, I fear that unless radical change takes place soon, Europe will end up as a museum for tourists. There is little incentive in the welfare states for innovation or progress. German, French and Greek youth all dream of the cushy bureaucratic job, where they will never get laid off and never really have to compete. Meanwhile, the demographic time bomb continues to tick, as Europe grows older and fewer workers support an aging population. Europe's answer so far is to postpone the problem to the future as it is unable to wean itself off the welfare state or to allow large scale immigration to solve the demographic problem. By comparison, the US is a dynamic powerhouse where opportunity is within everyone's reach. Unless something drastic takes place, this will cause an ever increasing disparity, as Europe and the US are moving into radically different directions.

I think that Europeans are aware of this and simply carp and complain about the US to avoid dealing with their own issues and lack of power on the world stage.

Miklos

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by theodore
Is there a miniscule possibility that all this negativity about America is justified? I also got stuck in front of the tv for days after the twin tower attacks. I also felt sympathy for America,especially for the families of those people. I also couldn't possibly justify such a massacre. I also supported the campaigne in Afghanistan. And I also was against the war in Iraq. I don't see any contradiction. I see two seperate invasions, one justified and one not. The American government was lying about Iraq, and worst of all, they KNEW that they were lying.
Bellkicker, you know your wife and how she thinks about these things better than probably anyone else does, so I don't know why you should care about predictable and negative comments. If someone can't distinguish bw politics of a country and the country's citizens, that's not your problem, it'S theirs.

From a satirical letter by a Canadian to the columnist Mark Steyn:

You sir, are a traitor to Canadians. You support the Great Satan in its insidious, neo-imperialistic policies of aggression against sovereign nations. You gleefully celebrate the capture of the most inspiring leader of our times. He may not have been a complete barrel of laughs but Saddam brought clean water and literacy to Iraqi's. Yet you continue to be fixated on trivialities like mass graves, human shredders, Kurd gassing, and the invasion of Kuwait; an obvious failing of your bourgeois mind. You violated the holy law of Canada that states" thou shalt adore left wing dictators and all their works".

Substitute Europe and Europeans for Canada....same thing.

 

[theodore]

Miklos,

Just like I have tried to distinguish bw American politics and public, I think you should do the same.You have read all my posts(since you re answering to them), so I think you ve realized that effort of mine.
I'm complaining about the same stuff that a great part of the American public is complaining,too. That is, a war not backed up by evidence. You can't support that there was evidence, because even your officials can't claim it any more.
I'm not buying that European leaders were crying because of the potential victims of this war. They had interests in Iraq, which they would lose, period. I have to say though, that between a hypocrit that pursues war and a hypocrit that pursues peace, I prefer a hypocrit that pursues peace. This was all about oil and money, for both sides. Only that one side was gaining from peace and the other would gain from war.
Do you have the impression that if something like that was being done from the EU I would not complain? I have posted before that I m no more against the invasion in Iraq than I am against Alexander's invasion in Asia. I ve said that as long as someone has 46 chromosomes and lots of power, this power will be misused. Doesn't it scare you to hear your officials (i ve heard Rumsfeld, for example) say that the long term plan is to create a power that will not be matched by anyone else? It scares me. Doesn't it scare you to have a country that is military invincible? It scares me. Doesn't it scare you that six billion are working for an elite of 1000-2000? It scares me. Doesn't it scare you to talk about preemptive wars? It scares me. And you know why? Because what you claim to be Europe's inability to interfere with world affairs is in essence the inability and/or unwillingness to spend as much as the rest of the planet together in military equipment. You want a world where the one with the best weapons prevails in all fields? Doing anything he wants without reasoning,evidence or arguments? Or do you really believe that once a country can overtake the world, she will not do it? The way the world works after the Iraq war, you can claim for any country that it s a threat to you, and have the right to attack you. How was Saddam a threat to America? It is known now that he DIDN T have WMDs. It's known that he didn't have any connection to the 9/11 attacks. So I don't know why we're arguing about this any more. He was not a threat but he was attacked because he was labeled as one. Well I say that in this logic, whoever doesn't serve American interests is playing Russian Rulette.
I come from a country that has had only 30 years of peace in the last 600 years or so. A continent with two world wars in less than a century in its ground. Why shall I not have the right to object to any more conflicts? And especially unreasoned ones?
Just like I don't buy the "sorrow"of EU leaders for Iraq, you should not buy the "freeing Iraqi people"argument.

 

[theodore]

Miklos,

Just like I have tried to distinguish bw American politics and public, I think you should do the same.You have read all my posts(since you re answering to them), so I think you ve realized that effort of mine.
I'm complaining about the same stuff that a great part of the American public is complaining,too. That is, a war not backed up by evidence. You can't support that there was evidence, because even your officials can't claim it any more.
I'm not buying that European leaders were crying because of the potential victims of this war. They had interests in Iraq, which they would lose, period. I have to say though, that between a hypocrit that pursues war and a hypocrit that pursues peace, I prefer a hypocrit that pursues peace. This was all about oil and money, for both sides. Only that one side was gaining from peace and the other would gain from war.
Do you have the impression that if something like that was being done from the EU I would not complain? I have posted before that I m no more against the invasion in Iraq than I am against Alexander's invasion in Asia. I ve said that as long as someone has 46 chromosomes and lots of power, this power will be misused. Doesn't it scare you to hear your officials (i ve heard Rumsfeld, for example) say that the long term plan is to create a power that will not be matched by anyone else? It scares me. Doesn't it scare you to have a country that is military invincible? It scares me. Doesn't it scare you that six billion are working for an elite of 1000-2000? It scares me. Doesn't it scare you to talk about preemptive wars? It scares me. And you know why? Because what you claim to be Europe's inability to interfere with world affairs is in essence the inability and/or unwillingness to spend as much as the rest of the planet together in military equipment. You want a world where the one with the best weapons prevails in all fields? Doing anything he wants without reasoning,evidence or arguments? Or do you really believe that once a country can overtake the world, she will not do it? The way the world works after the Iraq war, you can claim for any country that it s a threat to you, and have the right to attack you. How was Saddam a threat to America? It is known now that he DIDN T have WMDs. It's known that he didn't have any connection to the 9/11 attacks. So I don't know why we're arguing about this any more. He was not a threat but he was attacked because he was labeled as one. Well I say that in this logic, whoever doesn't serve American interests is playing Russian Rulette.
I come from a country that has had only 30 years of peace in the last 600 years or so. A continent with two world wars in less than a century in its ground. Why shall I not have the right to object to any more conflicts? And especially unreasoned ones?
Just like I don't buy the "sorrow"of EU leaders for Iraq, you should not buy the "freeing Iraqi people"argument.

 

[theodore]

And as for that satirical letter, I'm just wondering? Why Saddamm's bloodthirst was the last in the list of arguments before the war? Why did it suddenly become THE argument after no wmds were found? I would go fight in Iraq myself, if I was convinced that Iraqui freedom was the purpose of the war. It was not the purpose, it was a byproduct. And if you ask me, a pleasant one.
Quite honestly, Miklos, I think you are a very smart and well rounded person. But you choose to ignore some facts in favour of others. You're not unaware of them, you just ignore them.
It makes me furious to hear the American president say" oh well, we didn't find what we expected to find.'' Free translation: we lied to the whole planet, including our very own citizens, brought our country(and others) in a war for reasons that not even we don't know, but what the hell, we could do it, so why not? At least we brought freedom(key word:at least).

 

[theodore]

And I totally agree about what you're saying on Europe's feature. Maybe US will have similar problems when it grows a few thousand years old?(this was a joke). And it's part of the reason why EU leaders are complaining, I agree. But it wasn t this that led millions of Europeans-myself included- in the streets. And as scary as Europe's feature is, it's not as scary as a country that starts a war every time it wants to give a boost to its economy.

 

[Miklos]

Theodore,

The US is a hyperpower.

In a complex and dangerous world, it is the only power that is willing to address problems by changing facts on the ground (as opposed to changing the facts in Parisian conference rooms).

Either you believe that it is a force for good or you believe that it is a force for evil.

Regardless, unless Europe radically changes the direction it is heading in, the disparity will only continue to increase and Europe will be able to do less and will influence world events only minimally. Soon, it will not even be necessary for the US to bother to consult its 'allies' (with "friends" like the French, who needs enemies?), as they will be of little help anyway.

Regarding Iraq, the blood for oil argument is nonsense. Also, your assumptions regarding the 'military-industrial' complex are way out of date.

The UN is not the world government and I hope that it will never be. The bottom line is that the US needs neither the UN's nor the French foreign ministry's blessing to act in its own interests. This is the definition of sovereignty.

In other words, foreigners don't get to vote in the US elections, anymore than Americans do in Greek elections. You should keep this in mind.

Miklos

PS If you haven't already, check my post on the Europe forum about possibilities of getting a job in Britain for grads from new EU states.

 

[BellKicker]

Theo and Mike,

You guys are too much. If you met in a bar one night, you'd probably agree on most issues. Don't tell me you've never argued exactly opposite what you're doing now.

You're both obviously intelligent and cosmopolitan. I'm sure nothing annoys you more than some ignoramus sounding EXACTLY LIKE YOU'RE SOUNDING RIGHT NOW.

If you - as (future?) intercontinental immigrants - can't agree over this, we might as well throw in the towel and hand the world over to China. If you can't agree, do you think the steel worker and the olive farmer ever will?

And don't give me that crap about us not needing each other. The US and Europe have played good cop/bad cop succesfully for 50 years, and we should keep doing that. Europe's got the morals, America's got the missiles. Europe think they can rule by appeasement and example, America think they can rule by power and fear. Neither will work alone.


Peace out.

 

[PTCA]

Originally posted by Miklos
Theodore,


Either you believe that it is a force for good or you believe that it is a force for evil.

Unless you are an actual person and not a lord of the rings character! (either fighting or serving the dark lord Sauron.)

If that is the case you are allowed to think that if they can find some frigging way to burn olive oil in motors, Theodore will soon be spending his days in a ground hole somewhere, long bearded, clenching a machine gun, breathing through a tube.

Kidding aside,

The US like many nations and all global powers in history has gone to war repeatedly to shield its economic interests(and on some occasions because its security was indeed under threat).
(For example Yugoslavia was not only Europe?s screw up but also Europe?s doing, Chechnya certainly was no humanitarian mission, imperial Britain-Nazi Germany-colonial France and Spain were not charity organizations)

This is neither bad nor good it is simply the truth.

I am on an everyone forum detox break (so I am not going to go on about prewar EU and Russian contracts disappearing, US contacts emerging postwar, elusive WMDs, intelligence abusing the US president and stuff like that)
The truth is evident to all who care to see.

However each US citizen has the right and the responsibility to estimate to what extend each military action is justified, and what sort of benefits (military, political, diplomatic, economic, social) or loses derive from it for the country in general, for special interests groups and for him personally. Its called democracy, right?
And I personally have complete confidence in Americans to figure out the situation, decide to what extend the war concerned national security or oil and determine whether it was worth it or not, because the US is a developed nation with a high standard of living and an educated and informed population.
I would be so confident if we were talking primarily about a work crazed, uninsured non-English speaking, uneducated, immigrant population easily manipulated by a small oligarchic elite.(if that is your social goal you can keep it.)

If we wanted to worship competitiveness, cheap labor, lack of social protection and growth rates we would look to china not the US (bellkikcer beat me to it). Even Vietnam is doing great in those aspects.(competitiveness ?lets drop subsidies and taxation in the EU and the US and our markets will be taken over by their products. growth rates? Double or triple the US rate!8times the EU rate!)

Why is East Asia taking all your jobs away?
Are Americans lazy? Are you too dependent on the welfare state? Do you lack ambition? Are you not competitive enough? Do you whine too much about health coverage? Do you cost too much to employers by not be willing to work under unsafe or unsanitary conditions? Are your kids lazy? Why don?t you put them to work? (School is a luxury) shouldnt you be replaced by hordes of hungry immigrants willing to work for peanuts?????????? I fear about your future, .you are getting soft.

Lets cut the pseudo-neo liberal crap, the US and Europe are close ideologically. we are trying to combine a strong economy with a strong society. Balancing the 2 is a constant struggle and we are both doing a relatively good job at it. Only, the balance we use is slightly different.

(Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in. ...
politics even in the international forum)

 

[BellKicker]

PTCA, you bridge builder you! Great post.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

From the reasons for wanting to practice in the US we are in a heated discussion about world politics. Back to the topic of medicine in the US. Doctors come to the US for one thing above all, money. People say they come for other reasons but that really isn't the main motivator. Doctors in the US earn far more than anywhere else in the world. Even in most Western countries such as Canada and in Europe, they earn less than half what they do here in the US. Especially, if you work in a smaller city in the US versus the typical big cities so many FMGs foolishly pick, the difference in earnings is like night and day.
A little side note about all this talk of world politics. We are living in very troubling times if a physician, a person trained to heal the sick and suffering, believes war is a solution to the world's problems.

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by JoeNamaMD
A little side note about all this talk of world politics. We are living in very troubling times if a physician, a person trained to heal the sick and suffering, believes war is a solution to the world's problems.

If you think that the radical Islamic fundamentalists who wish impose their "interpretation" of Islam on the rest of the world by force are going to go away simply because we talk to them nicely, (IMHO) you haven't got a clue about human nature.

 

[poly]

Originally posted by Miklos
If you think that the radical Islamic fundamentalists who wish impose their "interpretation" of Islam on the rest of the world by force ...

You dont truly believe that, do you?

 

[Miklos]

I offer the Taliban and al-Qaeda and the atrocities they committed "in the name of Islam" in Afghanistan as bonafide proof.

Their stated goal is (their words, not mine) the establishment of an Islamic caliphate throughout Central Asia from China in the East, encompassing the former Soviet states to the North (the -stans), Pakistan, a good chunk of India in the South extending throughout the Middle East in the West.

The reason they see the US (and the West) as their enemy is because they believe that the US stands firmly in the way of their goals.

 

[theodore]

Uhm, forgive my ignorance, but when did radical Islam become a reason for attacking Iraq? The country is full of different ethinic and religious teams, and not all of the are radical islamists. Besides, I never heard anyone saying "now we re going to attack a radical islamist". I heard about a bloodthirsty dictator,directly involved in the 9-11 events, possessing WMDs and being willing to use them against the western world. Well, he was bloodthirsty dictator for sure,but he was one back in the first gulf war too,wasn't he?
PTCA, I don't know why you shouldn't go on about European contracts cancelled in Iraq and American contracts emerging. I think this illustrates both side's arguments before the war. Great post by the way.
And Bellkicker, I will admit that the original purpose of this thread wasn't a political discussion. To my defense, I'm evidently willing to blame and support both sides for what they're due,while my friend Miklos will just label "european knee jerk anti americanism"every blame against US. How many times throughout history did we see a hyperpower with good intentions?
Miklos, to settle this for once and for all, I am NOT anti-american. I had an American gf for 2.5 years and she was the best relationship I ever had. I have some American friends here, too. I'm watching American movies and listening to American music day in and day out. Right now I'm wearing a pair of 501s,a Marlboro sweater and Nike sneakers. In the afternoon I'll drop by McDonald's and kill a MacRoyal menu with a half liter cola. And finally, I have devoted the last 3 years of my life in pursuing a residency spot in the States,where I hope to spend the next seven years of my life. Does that prohibit me from blaming US politics when I see wrong in it?
Friend is not someone that will never blame when you re wrong. A

 

[theodore]

A friend is the FIRST one to blame you when you re wrong. And definitely, a friend isn't someone that will always say"i am with you" in the statement"you re either with us, or you re against us". Does Bush have color blindness or the world is indeed black and white?

 

[theodore]

I will have to argue on what you said, and i'm a living example. I have explained the reason before. Unless you have serious reasons to stay in the US after your training, you do NOT go there for money. The money you get as a resident is enough for one reason and one reason only:you have so much work to do, that you don't have any time left for spending money.
Indirectly however, I could accept that you could exchange your (superior) training in the States with big bucks when you go back home (and I will freely admit this is one of the reasons i want to go there, although still not the main one).

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by theodore
A friend is the FIRST one to blame you when you re wrong. And definitely, a friend isn't someone that will always say"i am with you" in the statement"you re either with us, or you re against us". Does Bush have color blindness or the world is indeed black and white?

Theodore,

I think that the basic question is whether you believe that the world changed on September 11, 2001.

I believe it has, in the same way as when the Berlin Wall fell.

I believe one can throw away most of one's assumptions about the geopolitical situation prior to that day. I do not see traditional large scale wars dominating geopolitics anymore.

What I do see happening, is what happend on September 11. Subnational groups (particularly "Islamic" ones) using any method they can to attack civilian targets with the aim of causing large scale death and destruction.

This, I think, is a lesson Europe has not yet learned.

In the post September 11 world, it IS a very simple binary matter. Either you are with us (the civilized world) or against us.

The subnational groups (call them terrorists if you wish) do not respect any laws, rules, borders or boundries. In order to defeat them, one must fight them whereever they find shelter or succor. One must make the penalty for cooperating with them so large, that all dictators who possess any selfinterest (and they all do) will very seriously think a number of times before cooperating with them.

To me, the UN is a sham. Why? I haven't seen it achieve too much in my lifetime.

Whether you like George Bush personally or not (I do not) you must give him the following credit.

-Since September 11, 2001 America has not (yet) suffered any further attacks.
-A fundamentalist "Islamic" dictatorship that was a division of Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan has been removed.
-A bloodthirsty Arab Hitler in Iraq has been removed.
-The fight against the terrorists is now on their turf, AND not in the US.

Would you like more proof?

Just recently, Mohammar Qaddafi started to dismantle his WMD progam. Guess who he called when he wanted to own up to it? The UN? Guess again. He secretly called the US and Britain, because he knew better.

So, the score in my book is: Two dictatorships removed, one more WMD program dismantled and the fight against the terrorists moved onto their own turf.

IMHO, that's not bad at all.

So, who is more effective? George Bush or the UN?

I think that a few hurt European sensibilities are well worth the price.

Don't you?

Miklos

 

[poly]

Originally posted by Miklos


-A bloodthirsty Arab Hitler in Iraq has been removed.
-The fight against the terrorists is now on their turf, AND not in the US.

But, but, was not this "Arab Hitler" a product of USA? Encouraged and substained till 10 years ago?

Does not USA have the School of Americas? Has it not been around for a long time?

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by poly
But, but, was not this "Arab Hitler" a product of USA? Encouraged and substained till 10 years ago?

Does not USA have the School of Americas? Has it not been around for a long time?

If you believe that the Baath party is an American product, I respectfully suggest you study some Middle Eastern history. Both the Baath party and Saddam's domination of Iraq predate American support, which started after the Iranian Revolution on the mistaken theory that "my enemy's enemy is my friend."

Your point is valid, however. I believe that America's greatest foreign policy mistakes are when US administrations support dictators in the guise of realpolitik. I also believe the same mistake is (I'm hoping was) being made recently in Central Asia (the -stans).

As far as the School of the Americas goes this, too, is a historical failure no doubt about it. Democracy (or the lack of it) in Latin America is a whole other topic. Blaming the US for the inherent social inequalities and its consequences in Latin America (IMHO) is quite frankly ridiculous.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Originally posted by gtb
I'm a US medical student rotating through clerkships in my 3rd year of medical school. I've encountered a small number of IMGs who have already graduated from their programs and are now performing audition rotations in various hospitals. One question I've wanted to ask is, "Why do you want to practice medicine in the US?" Politeness prohibited me from inquiring in person, so I ask this online instead.

I keep reading and hearing in media that America is the equivalent of evil in the world. That the American healthcare system is inherently cruel in its denial of services for certain individuals. That Americans are arrogant, stupid, insensitive, and rude. So why do some physicians in other countries work so hard and jump through so many hoops attempting to come to America and practice medicine?

Thanks in advance for your sincere answers.

The image you are referring to is not neccesarily the image many have of the US around the world. Actually many people have a very positive view of the US and especially with regards to economic opportunity, there is no country that offers a more lucrative opportunities than the US. In fact when I was in College, I studied for one semester in Europe and a lot of the people I knew had dreams of coming to the US. Some of these people were flat out alcoholics and they thought they were going to become movie producers and executives in Hollywood. A lot of people outside America associate the USA with wealth and opportunity not necessarily the cruelty you mentioned. A lot of foreign physicians come to the US because frankly, medicine is a lucrative field in our part of the world. The average American doctor makes around $160,000 a year and a lot more if they enter into a specialty. There is nowhere else in the world where a doctor earns this high an income. In fact the second highest paying country for physicians is Canada and Canadian doctors earn roughly half of what an average US doctor earns, in many cases even less. In France, the average doctor earns half of what a Canadian doctor earns. So in France, a French doctor earns one fourth of what the average American doctor takes home in a year. The standard of living in the US is also higher than in any country in the world with Canada coming in at second place and Australia in a close third. Most Americans for one thing, own their own home, in other places most people live in apartments. Things that you and I take for granted in America are very pricey and often scarce in many other countries. In France, for example, a can of Coke can cost you 5 dollars, a gallon of gas in Europe costs 5 dollars, it costs more money to buy a BMW in Germany than it does in the US. In Japan, a SONY Flat Screen HDTV can cost a lot more than it does from your local electronics store in the US. If you go to a McDonald's in Switzerland an extra value meal costs $10 and on top of it they charge you for ketchup and to use the bathroom. The cost of living in most parts of the world are much higher than in the US and the ability to earn an income is less, so the US has the best standard of living on the Earth and the whole world knows it.
Despite a lower standard of living, things aren't so terrible in those places either. Those other developed countries have many benefits that us Americans can only dream of, for example, in France, an average worker(which includes doctors) gets 2 months of vacation a year(this doesn't include Christmas and Easter when most French don't even show up to work for a whole week), in America most of us have to get by with only a measly 2 weeks. Healthcare is also free of charge in Western Europe, Canada, Australia, and Japan. You rarely hear about people in these countries going bankrupt because of healthcare costs. In general most of these places also have much lower rates of crime than the US because of strict gun control and a generous social system. Education is also free or very low cost in these places too, for example, in Germany, medical school is free of tuition, German medical students only pay for their living expenses. So there are a lot of benefits that doctors from these countries have. There's also a lot of untangibles and other immeasurable qualities to many parts of the world, if you visit Northern Queensland Australia and get a gander of the beaches there you will realize what I am talking about, it is possibly the most beautiful place in the world 🙂 .

 

[redshifteffect]

Are you sure that America has the higest standard of living in the world?

According to the UN survey Canada was the best place to live for the last 6 years in a row, and I believe Australia was first for a couple of years.

As for physician incomes, I'm pretty sure doctors in Australia are making way more money than Canadian doctors for a lot less time. Where are you getting your information from? Is this personal sources or some article?

 

[BellKicker]

It depends on your definition of standard of living , of course, but the UN publishes a rank list every so often. America is never in the top 5. Neither is Canada, I don't think. 5 years ago it was always Scandinavian countries topping the list but last time I heard it was Luxembourgh twice in a row. Switzerland is up there in the mix, too, and some country you wouldn't think of - and which I can't remember, like Brunei or something. I'd do a search if I had the time.

 

[theodore]

Miklos,
I think we two have gone way overboard on politics. I can't see myself agreeing on some of your points, and I can't see you agreeing on any of mine.
What I can keep out of this discussion is that America is a hyperpower,it will do as it wants when it feels threatened (definition for threat is a bonus not yet provided) and without asking anyone( since the UN is a bunch of dictators),and 90% of the world is clueless about everything (since they condemn this war) and enemies( since they did not participate in it). You can keep feeling happy about these facts. I on the other hand,am waiting for the presidential elections. And if this guy goes down, I'll be able to say that indeed, the war in Iraq brought down two dictators.

 

[theodore]

Bellkicker,
After reading your post, I would have to reset the question: why practice in the USA? I know you re married with kids to an American, but why not stay in Denmark instead of moving to the States? By the way, may I ask how old are you? Just out of curiosity...
I would have to agree with you on that it depends on your definition of standards of living. A gross-but valid- oversimplification would be to weigh how much you work against what you re given. In that sense, I think that Norway and Sweden are in a high rank (don't know any people from Finland or Denmark). The guys are working around 50 hour weeks and make very comfortable livings in extremely expensive markets. Not to mention that in Norway in specific, students can work as docs and earn money after the 5th year of med.school (one year before graduation!), or do nursing work and get paid even before that. Ahh, if only the weather was a little better there, it would be the dream land.

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by JoeNamaMD
The image you are referring to is not neccesarily the image many have of the US around the world. Actually many people have a very positive view of the US and especially with regards to economic opportunity, there is no country that offers a more lucrative opportunities than the US. In fact when I was in College, I studied for one semester in Europe and a lot of the people I knew had dreams of coming to the US. Some of these people were flat out alcoholics and they thought they were going to become movie producers and executives in Hollywood. A lot of people outside America associate the USA with wealth and opportunity not necessarily the cruelty you mentioned. A lot of foreign physicians come to the US because frankly, medicine is a lucrative field in our part of the world. The average American doctor makes around $160,000 a year and a lot more if they enter into a specialty. There is nowhere else in the world where a doctor earns this high an income. In fact the second highest paying country for physicians is Canada and Canadian doctors earn roughly half of what an average US doctor earns, in many cases even less. In France, the average doctor earns half of what a Canadian doctor earns. So in France, a French doctor earns one fourth of what the average American doctor takes home in a year. The standard of living in the US is also higher than in any country in the world with Canada coming in at second place and Australia in a close third. Most Americans for one thing, own their own home, in other places most people live in apartments. Things that you and I take for granted in America are very pricey and often scarce in many other countries. In France, for example, a can of Coke can cost you 5 dollars, a gallon of gas in Europe costs 5 dollars, it costs more money to buy a BMW in Germany than it does in the US. In Japan, a SONY Flat Screen HDTV can cost a lot more than it does from your local electronics store in the US. If you go to a McDonald's in Switzerland an extra value meal costs $10 and on top of it they charge you for ketchup and to use the bathroom. The cost of living in most parts of the world are much higher than in the US and the ability to earn an income is less, so the US has the best standard of living on the Earth and the whole world knows it.
Despite a lower standard of living, things aren't so terrible in those places either. Those other developed countries have many benefits that us Americans can only dream of, for example, in France, an average worker(which includes doctors) gets 2 months of vacation a year(this doesn't include Christmas and Easter when most French don't even show up to work for a whole week), in America most of us have to get by with only a measly 2 weeks. Healthcare is also free of charge in Western Europe, Canada, Australia, and Japan. You rarely hear about people in these countries going bankrupt because of healthcare costs. In general most of these places also have much lower rates of crime than the US because of strict gun control and a generous social system. Education is also free or very low cost in these places too, for example, in Germany, medical school is free of tuition, German medical students only pay for their living expenses. So there are a lot of benefits that doctors from these countries have. There's also a lot of untangibles and other immeasurable qualities to many parts of the world, if you visit Northern Queensland Australia and get a gander of the beaches there you will realize what I am talking about, it is possibly the most beautiful place in the world 🙂 .

I would agree with most of your post, but would like the point out the following.

There is no such thing as a FREE LUNCH. The underlined benefits must all be paid for.

Let's start with healthcare. In Canada, Canadians routinely take advantage of the proximity of the US to get tests and procedures done privately, because they do not want to wait in line as the system rations healthcare. In effect, the US healthcare system is Canada's private solution to its healthcare problems. (As are Canada's pharmacies to US consumers paying more for their drugs, thanks to the stupidity of drug companies.) Anyone who thinks that the Canadian system is in good shape and isn't underfunded should take a look at the recent headlines in Canada's daily newspapers.

In Western Europe, there are a number of social systems at play. For argument's sake, let's take Germany. Germany has a very (some would say overly) generous social system. It, however, comes at a very significant price. Germany is burdened by high taxation, overregulation and aging population. Soon, the system, which worked out very well while the population grew, will be in danger of collapse. In addition, Germany is burdened by a structural unemployment problem above 10%. The situation is more or less the same in all European countries. Unless the European leadership starts embracing deregulation, markets and immigration things will go from bad to worse in a very short time.

The concept that the vacations, social benefits and healthcare are "FREE" is false. Everything must be paid for in one manner or another.

With regard to crime, it is true that the US has a significantly higher murder rate than most of Europe. However, the overall rate of crime in Britain is just as high if not higher. Public safety problems that the Europeans ascribed strictly to the US, seem to appear in Europe all the time. New York City, for instance, is getting safer every year, while there are Parisian suburbs where the gendarmes fear to tread.

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by theodore
Miklos,
I think we two have gone way overboard on politics. I can't see myself agreeing on some of your points, and I can't see you agreeing on any of mine.
What I can keep out of this discussion is that America is a hyperpower,it will do as it wants when it feels threatened (definition for threat is a bonus not yet provided) and without asking anyone( since the UN is a bunch of dictators),and 90% of the world is clueless about everything (since they condemn this war) and enemies( since they did not participate in it). You can keep feeling happy about these facts. I on the other hand,am waiting for the presidential elections. And if this guy goes down, I'll be able to say that indeed, the war in Iraq brought down two dictators.

Fair enough. One last word.

Take a look at the number of democratically elected governments who have sent troops to Iraq. Sure, it doesn't include Germany and France, but who cares? The job of the US president is not to make the left bank intellectuals happy. He has a duty to his people.

Re: "Bush dictatorship." As you have never been to the US, I can excuse your naivety. I can assure you that the rule of law is functioning well in the US. Allow me an extreme example. If I were to call the media and invite them to film me burning an American flag in front of the White House while chanting anti-Bush slogans, I would have a constitutionally protected right to do so. Not, only that. The Capitol police would protect ME from anyone wishing to interfere with my demonstration to the point that they would arrest them for trying to take the burning flag away from me. I DARE YOU to take a Greek flag in front of the Greek parliament and burn it while chanting anti-PASOK slogans. I doubt that the soldiers protecting the building would come to your defense after the first patriotic Greek guy on the street would have pummeled you. You probably would not "live to tell".

Miklos

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by theodore
Bellkicker,
After reading your post, I would have to reset the question: why practice in the USA? I know you re married with kids to an American, but why not stay in Denmark instead of moving to the States? By the way, may I ask how old are you? Just out of curiosity...
I would have to agree with you on that it depends on your definition of standards of living. A gross-but valid- oversimplification would be to weigh how much you work against what you re given. In that sense, I think that Norway and Sweden are in a high rank (don't know any people from Finland or Denmark). The guys are working around 50 hour weeks and make very comfortable livings in extremely expensive markets. Not to mention that in Norway in specific, students can work as docs and earn money after the 5th year of med.school (one year before graduation!), or do nursing work and get paid even before that. Ahh, if only the weather was a little better there, it would be the dream land.

No way. Norway is only able to do what it does due to its oil reserves and low population (see previous post; everything must be paid for). Just wait till the day they run out...

Sweden's taxes are higher even than Germany's and it is saddled with (more or less) the same problems.

N.B. Have you seen how wild Nordic students go when they come to Hungary? They think that it is the land of milk and honey as alcohol and cigarettes are practically free compared to back home. Makes you think, doesn't it?

 

[BellKicker]

Originally posted by theodore
Bellkicker,
After reading your post, I would have to reset the question: why practice in the USA? I know you re married with kids to an American, but why not stay in Denmark instead of moving to the States? By the way, may I ask how old are you? Just out of curiosity...

I'll be happy to answer that. First of all, it's been our plan since the beginning of time. Back in the day, we took a chance on marrying. She had to get her "green card" here and we figured if it worked, it worked. If it didn't work out she got to see Europe and she could brag about that. 8 years later we have 2 kids and the long-awaited graduation day is almost here. We always said we'd try living over there; it just seemed to make more sense to take advantage of the free Danish educational system.

I look forward to moving. I love America and - especially - Americans. We talk about moving every day now. It's exciting as hell. It'll be an adventure.

Professionally, it'll be a challenge. Our system is a lot like the US system, where we rely on IMGs to fill all the undesirable spots (like rads and surgery but that's another thread). So, yeah, the whole IMG thing is a little annoying. Moneywise, I think I'll make more money in the US but work a lot longer hours, too. Here, an FP works 37 hours and makes a little more than $100K. So they make more per hour but the incentive to work long hours is lost because of our high taxes.

I'm in my late twenties now, btw. That's pretty average for Denmark. We have the longest medical degree in the world: 6,5 years! Waste of time but an interesting tidbit of information come interview time.

 

[BellKicker]

Originally posted by Miklos
No way. Norway is only able to do what it does due to its oil reserves and low population (see previous post; everything must be paid for). Just wait till the day they run out...

Sweden's taxes are higher even than Germany's and it is saddled with (more or less) the same problems.

N.B. Have you seen how wild Nordic students go when they come to Hungary? They think that it is the land of milk and honey as alcohol and cigarettes are practically free compared to back home. Makes you think, doesn't it?

For Norway, yes, they rely on their oil but that's the exception. Denmark, Sweden and Finland (although not a Scandinavian country) have GDPs similar to Norway's.

We have the highest overall taxation in Denmark, but the top income tax is higher in Sweden.

Miklos, I know what you mean about young Scandinavians abroad, especially Eastern Europe. To at extent, we act that way in America, too. When comparing Hungary to America, I'm sure you find America expensive. We find Luxemburg and Switzerland expensive. There's a natural pecking order there. You probably know about the Big Mac index: Tell a countries living standard by how expensive a big Mac is. It's reality.

In a way, that's why the social spectrum in America is so polarized. Rich Americans are able to buy more for their money because the average income or wealth is kept relatively low. When you have a minimum wage of 5 bucks, you're in a way forcing society to maintain a price index for that sort of income. Minimum wage is over $15/h here, so prices go up.

Hmm, that was sort of going off on a tangent but that's the way it goes.

BK

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by BellKicker
In a way, that's why the social spectrum in America is so polarized. Rich Americans are able to buy more for their money because the average income or wealth is kept relatively low. When you have a minimum wage of 5 bucks, you're in a way forcing society to maintain a price index for that sort of income. Minimum wage is over $15/h here, so prices go up.

I, as a card carrying libertarian capitalist, fundamentally disagree.

There are a number of reasons the consumer goods are cheaper in the US.

1) Size of the market
2) Competition
3) Less regulation
4) Lower taxes
5) Lower "social" charges

I for one, do not believe in forced income redistribution. And I suspect that despite your rhetoric, neither do you.

Miklos

 

[BellKicker]

Fast reply, Miklos!

Well, you're right, I don't agree with income distribution. I think the social differences are too wide in America but then again hard work and skill goes unrewarded here.

As to price index, your arguments are valid but a little blue-eyed. So I guess all those factors are really efficient in Somalia cuz I believe food is cheaper there than in America?

In fact, in my experience, there's an uncanny correlation between a population's income and the prices they pay. Bottom line is that prices are jacked up because of wealth. Your factors probably play a (minor) part, too, though.

 

[Miklos]

Well BK, to my knowledge there isn't a McDonald's in Mogadishu so the Big Mac Index doesn't apply.

I am willing to bet, however, that any manufactured consumer good costs multiples of what you'd pay in the US. Let's take a Sony TV and my criteria.

1) Size of the market; near minimal. Sony Somalia probably doesn't exist. No chance to maximize efficiency in marketing, sales and distribution. If you can get it, it is probably because some middleman bought it in Dubai and brought it there. So, you'd be paying his expenses and profits.

2) Competition. I doubt that Sony's competitors are represented in Somalia. No reason to discount the item.

3) Regulation. Well, to be honest, I don't know the regulatory situation in Somalia, but my experience is that either it doesn't exist OR you need to pay off somebody doing "customs". I suspect that it is the latter adding charges to our TV set.

4) Taxes. I'm not sure that Somalia actually collects formal taxes, per se, but do bribes to guys manning road blocks count as such?

5) Social "charges". Well, in this case if we ignore #4, then the Somalis have a huge competitive advantage.

Now seriously, let's take Europe.

The EU as a single market is still in its infancy, when 13 out of 15 member states put up restrictions on the freedom of movement on labor from the new EU members. Both the size of the market and competition is thereby limited. I don't think that I need to lecture you on EU regulations, taxes or social charges.

All these things add up to make that Big Mac that more expensive.

Anyway, try my criteria on any tradable good and look at the result. The reason I'm so sure, is because I live in Hungary and I know the prices here compare very poorly to the US especially at direct exchange rates; never mind PPP.

 

[BellKicker]

Hmm, very interesting and funny post. I'll have to think up some arguments and I'll get back to you.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Bellkicker, if you're in Denmark( which in IMHO is heaven ) you stand a lot to lose coming to the US. Yes you might make more money here but there will be more hassles and headaches, and you will have an IMG stigma, something that won't be an issue for you in Denmark. As a foreign medical graduate in the US, you will most likely work in a field that US grads did not want or in a less desirable location(basically inner city ghetto or a rural location). So the chances that you will work in less desirable conditions will be increased. Another thing to note is that American doctors get very little vacation time if any time off, which will mean more stress. You mentioned that a General physician earns around 100K for 37 hours a week, is that in Euros? If so that is a very nice salary for a very short work week. A generalist in the US earns around US$130 to US$150K and usually works 50-60 hours a week. I know this firsthand I work very long hours and deal with dinguses day in and day out. Its nothing like that nice civil European system where everyone's polite. You also have to deal with lawsuits and litigation, the average American doctor will be sued at least 3-4 times in their lifetime, and this won't be for petty sums of money, this will often be for millions of dollars. If you decide to open and run a private practice in the US, you have to pay for your own health insurance and fund your retirement on your own. There are no benefits whatsoever. Private health insurance in the US is a very unpleasant thing to deal with especially if you come from a place with universal healthcare coverage. A lot of private health insurance companies charge astronomical rates(me and my wife pay $1200 a month), and also have conartist tactics like preexisting conditions. So life in America isn't as rosy as people think.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by BellKicker
It depends on your definition of standard of living , of course, but the UN publishes a rank list every so often. America is never in the top 5. Neither is Canada, I don't think. 5 years ago it was always Scandinavian countries topping the list but last time I heard it was Luxembourgh twice in a row. Switzerland is up there in the mix, too, and some country you wouldn't think of - and which I can't remember, like Brunei or something. I'd do a search if I had the time.

http://rgh.freeyellow.com/canada.html

http://www.english-vancouver.com/canada-human-development/

http://www.canadaka.net/cka/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=132

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/20276.html


Wow you couldn't be any more wrong man, Canada has been the best country in the world for 6 years in a row, Scandanavian countries have only been high for the last couple of years.



www.undp.org/hdr2001/clips/australia.pdf

 

[BellKicker]

Well, I hereby declare Canada an honorary Scandinavian country. 🙂

Seriously, I'm not making it up about the standard of living. Your charts talk about "best place to live". I did a search now and couldn't find anything specific. Except Luxemburg who has been leading "my" chart the last 2 times I read about it has the highest GDP by far. All the countries on my chart have very high GDPs, even the weirdo on the list "Brunei".

Now, if I look at your sources I'll tell you right now I see some selcetion bias. The only non-partisan source is British and places 2 Scandinavian countries (ok, two Nordic countries but you get my point) as number 1 and 3.

Maybe the most likely explanation is that we all think we're the best and we like to point out little sub-categories where we excel.

And hey, I have nothing against Canada (if you're Canadian and that's what you were worried about). If I had to find one thing that bugs me ever so slightly it would be that everyone thinks it's such a high-moraled place compared to America. As I wrote earlier (I think in this thread), I tell strangers my wife is Canadian.

 

[BellKicker]

Just to show you the bias, here's a link I found while searching. This is a Scandinavian site and puts all five Nordic countries at the top of the list.

I still swear I've seen a list with Luxemburg leading by a mile and it wasn't just GDP.

Oh well.

 

[BellKicker]

Originally posted by JoeNamaMD
Bellkicker, if you're in Denmark( which in IMHO is heaven ) you stand a lot to lose coming to the US. Yes you might make more money here but there will be more hassles and headaches, and you will have an IMG stigma, something that won't be an issue for you in Denmark. As a foreign medical graduate in the US, you will most likely work in a field that US grads did not want or in a less desirable location(basically inner city ghetto or a rural location). So the chances that you will work in less desirable conditions will be increased. Another thing to note is that American doctors get very little vacation time if any time off, which will mean more stress. You mentioned that a General physician earns around 100K for 37 hours a week, is that in Euros? If so that is a very nice salary for a very short work week. A generalist in the US earns around US$130 to US$150K and usually works 50-60 hours a week. I know this firsthand I work very long hours and deal with dinguses day in and day out. Its nothing like that nice civil European system where everyone's polite. You also have to deal with lawsuits and litigation, the average American doctor will be sued at least 3-4 times in their lifetime, and this won't be for petty sums of money, this will often be for millions of dollars. If you decide to open and run a private practice in the US, you have to pay for your own health insurance and fund your retirement on your own. There are no benefits whatsoever. Private health insurance in the US is a very unpleasant thing to deal with especially if you come from a place with universal healthcare coverage. A lot of private health insurance companies charge astronomical rates(me and my wife pay $1200 a month), and also have conartist tactics like preexisting conditions. So life in America isn't as rosy as people think.

Joe, I'm glad you have such a fairy-tale view of Denmark. I used to have that view of America.

A few points, I'd like to make:

I'm aware of the IMG stigma. Hey, I post regularly in the international forum on SDN; I'd be pretty thick not to have noticed it.

Comparing a US FP to a Danish FP, the American works more hours, earns more $ and pays less taxes.

Danish society expects both parents to work. In the US, one parent could work for 2 (in terms of earnings and/or hours). I like the US model better.

In 10 years I'll be living in a small town in Northern Minnesota where I share a practice with 3 other FPs. My kids will be little bilingual Danish-American skiers. I'm convinced I'll be happier than all my buddies who are staying put.

I don't think too much about the whole malpractice thing. I know it's a big topic by you guys but if I started worrying about that my head would explode.

 

[neilc]

Originally posted by BellKicker
My kids will be little bilingual Danish-American skiers.

skiers? in minnesota? i think that you should go to colorado, wyoming, montana, new mexico or even california for the skiing!

unless, of course, you mean cross country skiing. but, i think that is considered child abuse

 

[BellKicker]

Originally posted by neilc
skiers? in minnesota? i think that you should go to colorado, wyoming, montana, new mexico or even california for the skiing!

unless, of course, you mean cross country skiing. but, i think that is considered child abuse

I grew up down-hill skiing every year in the Alps and I used to think cross-country was the biggest loser-waste-of-time sport in the world.

After I tried it a few years ago, I've become addicted to it. I like the way it's so technical and that I get better at it all the time. Plus it's a great workout.

Oh, and there is downhill skiing in Minnesota. A place on the north shore of Lake Superior called Lutsen is the biggest "mountain" in the midwest, actually.

(It's no high Sierras or anything, though).

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Bellkicker, Northern Minnesota shouldn't be a problem for IMGs, most remote locales in the US have physician shortages so the stigma becomes irrelevant. It becomes an issue if you decide to work in a physician magnet city like San Francisco or Boston.

 

[theodore]

Miklos, you really lost me this time around. I don't understand what does your example with the flag have to do with the surrounding conversation. But since you set it, I realy doubt anything would happen to me,or anyone for that matter,if I went outside the parliament and I started shouting against the government while burning a Greek flag. And just like there are patriots in Greece that would react to this, there would be everywhere. I've been told not to say anything antiamerican if I end up in Texas, for instance.
By the way, do you have internet access through your cell phone or do you spend half the day in front of SDN?

 

[BellKicker]

I'm going to have to agree with Theodore on this one. If I had to burn a flag in Denmark or America, I think I'd choose Denmark.

Then again, I think the whole flag-burning thing is an American phenomenon. People here would be bitching more about me ruining the pavement outside the parliament than about the flag itself. A lot of people wouldn't even consider it a political statement, seriously. Mostly, the flag is connected with soccer and other sports and with birthdays and anniversaries.

Speaking of, Theodore, did the loser Greek's (😉 ) make it to the championship this summer? I do know you guys missed out on the World Cup becauese of a home 0-1 loss to some team up north, heh heh.

 

[theodore]

This is the longest it has ever taken for Miklos to reply. I suspect he's been captured by CIA for mentioning a burning American flag🙂 Or he's trying to prove to me that he's not spending half of the day in SDN🙂 Back on the topic, even if someone got pissed of me burning the flag in Greece, the most he could do would be to swear at me, while in Texas he could very well shoot me.
BK, the loser Greek team isn't as much of a loser anymore. We did qualify for the Euro finals first in our group, leaving second the much advertised Spanish team, who we even won in Spain with 1-0. I don' t really believe that we're gonna pass first round in Portugal, but it's the first time we're making it to the finals after 20 years, so it's a nice first step. Talk about my worst nightmare: having a summer with the Euro finals, the Olympics in Greece after 100 years, and myself in Hungary,gearing up for step 2 in August. Life is a b..h😡

 

[BellKicker]

I hear you, Theodore. Let's see, I have our own board exams in May and June, then step 2CS in August and Step 2 CK in september.

It'll be hard to get time to watch the Euro championships, Olympics AND the Tour. Actually, I always tape these things and fast-forward past the boring stuff.

Being in Greece for the Olympics has gotta be crazy. Are you going to watch any of the competitions? I could never sit in the stadiums with all those people but I'd be sure to watch, at least, the cycling road race and time trial, the triathlon, the marathon, stuff like that. Gaad, I'm getting jealous here.

 

[Miklos]

Originally posted by theodore
This is the longest it has ever taken for Miklos to reply. I suspect he's been captured by CIA for mentioning a burning American flag🙂 Or he's trying to prove to me that he's not spending half of the day in SDN🙂 Back on the topic, even if someone got pissed of me burning the flag in Greece, the most he could do would be to swear at me, while in Texas he could very well shoot me.
BK, the loser Greek team isn't as much of a loser anymore. We did qualify for the Euro finals first in our group, leaving second the much advertised Spanish team, who we even won in Spain with 1-0. I don' t really believe that we're gonna pass first round in Portugal, but it's the first time we're making it to the finals after 20 years, so it's a nice first step. Talk about my worst nightmare: having a summer with the Euro finals, the Olympics in Greece after 100 years, and myself in Hungary,gearing up for step 2 in August. Life is a b..h😡

No, I'm well thanks for your concern. 🙂

I just think that I've said it all.

Good luck with Step 2.

 

[theodore]

Well, I'm probably taking step 2 around the 12th of August and the Hungarian board exam two weeks after that, so there's no chance of me watching any of the games live. It's a pitty, not only bc they're in Greece, but also bc the preliminary round in football will be in my very own city, in Crete🙁
I just hope I'll get to see on tv some of the events, like the finals in the 3 major sports(volleyball,football,basketball), the weightlifting finals and some track and field (especially Kenderis' effort to kick a...s in 200 meters🙂
I don't know what i'm doing with the CSA yet(i 'm not yet familiar with the new name), since we have elections this Sunday in Greece and the two different parties have different opinions on what they're gonna do with people like me. so I have to take the wait and see approach. But all this might be worth it if I finally manage to get a spot in IM.

 

[Spidey]

Originally posted by Miklos
From a satirical letter by a Canadian to the columnist Mark Steyn:

You sir, are a traitor to Canadians. You support the Great Satan in its insidious, neo-imperialistic policies of aggression against sovereign nations. You gleefully celebrate the capture of the most inspiring leader of our times. He may not have been a complete barrel of laughs but Saddam brought clean water and literacy to Iraqi's. Yet you continue to be fixated on trivialities like mass graves, human shredders, Kurd gassing, and the invasion of Kuwait; an obvious failing of your bourgeois mind. You violated the holy law of Canada that states" thou shalt adore left wing dictators and all their works".

Substitute Europe and Europeans for Canada....same thing.

Just ran across this thread and wanted to point something out here... Miklos, you DO know what satire means right? I actually don't think that you do...

the Canadian writer of this letter is pointing out how ridiculous these statements are with... SATIRE ... he is being sarcastic. To translate, he is saying that it is ridiculous to call the USA the big satan for removing an evil mass murderer from power. The writer of the letter is taking the US's side here. The fact that you acknowledge the letter as satire and then try to use it to show Canadians think USA is the big evil baffles the hell out of me. Maybe I am misinterpreting your post, if so I hope you'll explain what you really meant to me.


I'll tell you how I feel about the USA, and I think my attitude is probably shared by the majority of Canadians. Canada thinks of the USA as its neighbour and one of its best friends. Even though the USA can be arrogant and loud at times, it is still one of our best friends. It's too bad the USA is always going and pissing off our other friends, like Europe, but we still enjoy inviting the USA over and sharing a beer with him. The USA and Canada have very similiar morals in a lot of things, though Canada tends to be more tolerant and laid back... and more quiet and polite perhaps. I guess what I'm saying is if you think the majority of Canadians dislike the USA you are dead wrong. There is probably a small population of Canadians who think it is cool to dislike the USA but they are the minority. Unfortunately the US media isn't going to put a story about a Canadian saying nice things on the air, they'll go for the Canadian who is trying to be cool and trashing the US every time. So it gives a distorted image of reality. I think most Canadians are aware the majority of the US citizens are cool people. But there are jerks in every country, Canada and US are no exceptions, although the jerks in the US seem to be louder than the jerks in most other countries 😛 I think a lot of Canadians are surprised a guy like Bush got elected, but most of us are also aware he barely got elected, and only with the intervention of the US courts. Then again, the Canadian government is currently led by a prime minister who stole hundreds of millions of dollars in government funds, so who are we to talk aboot 😉 electing the wrong guy.