Why should 3rd year clerkships be pass/fail?

[DermViser]

I'm not saying it's going to predict it, just that it's better than anything else and thus the likely choice. I'm sure like you said there are the bookworms who 260 it all the way and then derp hard when they see a real patient. However, rather hopefully I'd assume this isn't the majority.

That's the thing though it isn't: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...lerkships-be-pass-fail.1068717/#post-15188408

There is not one metric which predicts clinical residency performance. That is why there is holistic review of the entire application.

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[KnuxNole]

If you look at some MSPEs from some institutions that isn't the case.

Oh really? I would like to see some, I always assumed the ones who wrote 1 paragraph of feedback were the most extensive people ever. But in med school and residency, I assume minimal feedback was the norm :/

 

[DermViser]

Oh really? I would like to see some, I always assumed the ones who wrote 1 paragraph of feedback were the most extensive people ever. But in med school and residency, I assume minimal feedback was the norm :/

https://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/education/docs/current-students/sample-mspe-2010.pdf

http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/sc...udent-affairs/upload/Jane-Doe-outstanding.pdf

http://residency.wustl.edu/Application/Pages/Application Materials.aspx#MSPE

 

[DermViser]

It may not always be a punishment. For example, a PD gets one applicant from random-unknown school every other year. This school happens to have P/F clerkships, but the PD doesn't know it because the applicant is from a no-name school and the PD rarely sees applicants from that school. It's not unreasonable to say that the PD may assume the no-name school is H/HP/P/F, but the current applicant just happened to only Pass everything. So, while the PD isn't "punishing" the student, the student's school name/grading-system is certainly doing them a disservice.

I doubt that every PD has every grading rubric memorized.

 

[DermViser]

Yes, a student who gets less than a 227 (i.e. half of all med students) is incapable of becoming a neurosurgeon, dermatologist, etc. The point of stratification is to give students as equal of a chance as possible. It doesn't matter how you or I feel about the system. What matters is how we play within it.

Wrong. There are many Dermatology research fellows who have gotten a 227 and have done a year of research and gotten into Derm residency. The information load of Derm has not changed just bc the Step 1 average has trended up higher and higher each year.

 

[visualdreams]

Regarding the original topic, I know that CCLCM has no grades for the third (and other) years, like the Yale system.

Does anyone have any comments on how that's worked out for the students there?

 

[DermViser]

Regarding the original topic, I know that CCLCM has no grades for the third (and other) years, like the Yale system.

Does anyone have any comments on how that's worked out for the students there?

See their match lists:
http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2014.html

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2013.html

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2012.html

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2011.html

Quite impressive.

 

[visualdreams]

See their match lists:
http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2014.html

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2013.html

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2012.html

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2011.html

Quite impressive.

That's fantastic. As Sconey mentioned in the original post, some students are concerned that the lack of grades is an issue when it comes to applying for residencies. Is CCLCM an exception, and if so, what makes it work? CCLCM's technically a part of the Case Western graduating class, so it doesn't necessarily have the reputation of Yale and Stanford (some other schools I saw mentioned), or does it?

 

[DermViser]

P/F step exams? wtf?

Dentistry switched over to P/F board exams.

 

[DermViser]

That's fantastic. As Sconey mentioned in the original post, some students are concerned that the lack of grades is an issue when it comes to applying for residencies. Is CCLCM an exception, and if so, what makes it work? CCLCM's technically a part of the Case Western graduating class, so it doesn't necessarily have the reputation of Yale and Stanford (some other schools I saw mentioned), or does it?

Maybe bc the Cleveland Clinic name plays a role? Although I doubt it.

 

[dyspareunia]

I doubt that every PD has every grading rubric memorized.

Yes! This is precisely my point. A PD likely won't "punish" you for going to a P/F school, but in many cases they don't know your school is P/F and when they see all "Ps" for clerkship grades they won't be as impressed as the application next to yours that says "Honors" for every clerkship.

In other words, your "P" at a P/F school could be viewed as equivalent to a "P" at a H/HP/P/F school. With that in mind, I can see how students at schools (no-name schools) with P/F clerkships can feel like they're at a disadvantage. This is how I see it from an MS1 POV, which I understand is likely totally wrong.

 

[DermViser]

Yes! This is precisely my point. A PD likely won't "punish" you for going to a P/F school, but in many cases they don't know your school is P/F and when they see all "Ps" for clerkship grades they won't be as impressed as the application next to yours that says "Honors" for every clerkship.

In other words, your "P" at a P/F school could be viewed as equivalent to a "P" at a H/HP/P/F school.

For a more competitive specialty, they are much more likely to read your MSPE carefully, before offering you an interview, which is where they will see your school has P/F grading. When they notice that, they will understand and thus read the evaluation comments. There's also bar graphs at the end where it shows where you were in the class and whether you fell in the "P" vs. "F" category.

 

[dyspareunia]

That's fantastic. As Sconey mentioned in the original post, some students are concerned that the lack of grades is an issue when it comes to applying for residencies. Is CCLCM an exception, and if so, what makes it work? CCLCM's technically a part of the Case Western graduating class, so it doesn't necessarily have the reputation of Yale and Stanford (some other schools I saw mentioned), or does it?

I'd venture a guess that CCLCM students have letters from some of the most well recognized people in medicine and research. Maybe the school name doesn't carry as much weight as Yale, but those letter writers definitely do.

 

[DermViser]

I'd venture a guess that CCLCM students have letters from some of the most well recognized people in medicine and research. Maybe the school name doesn't carry as much weight as Yale, but those letter writers definitely do.

I guess that would depend on the specialty. That being said, don't they all have a 1 yr of research as part of their curriculum? 4 years of med school + 1 year of research to get an MS?

 

[dyspareunia]

For a more competitive specialty, they are much more likely to read your MSPE carefully, before offering you an interview, which is where they will see your school has P/F grading. When they notice that, they will understand and thus read the evaluation comments. There's also bar graphs at the end where it shows where you were in the class and whether you fell in the "P" vs. "F" category.

Thanks for explaining. I didn't know it worked like that.

I guess that would depend on the specialty. That being said, don't they all have a 1 yr of research as part of their curriculum? 4 years of med school + 1 year of research to get an MS?

Yeah I believe you're correct about the research year. I've heard that Case and CCLCM aren't that friendly to each other, but I'm sure CCLCM students can also easily access big-names at Case for letters. I'm sure all the other med schools in Ohio are trying to do the same though. Ohio has a ton of schools.. 7 MDs and 1 DO?

 

[DermViser]

Yeah I believe you're correct about the research year. I've heard that Case and CCLCM aren't that friendly to each other, but I'm sure CCLCM students can also easily access big-names at Case for letters. I'm sure all the other med schools in Ohio are trying to do the same though. Ohio has a ton of schools.. 7 MDs and 1 DO?

According to this they can rotate at Cleveland Clinic or at Case:
http://portals.clevelandclinic.org/lcm2/Academics/Clinical/tabid/7503/Default.aspx

Their website is very transparent about their curriculum: http://portals.clevelandclinic.org/...e2/StudentVideosPage3/tabid/7831/Default.aspx
-- They apparently have no lectures, grades, or class ranking. They only have 32 people in their class though.

 

[Psai]

See their match lists:
http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2014.html

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2013.html

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2012.html

http://cclcm.ccf.org/CCLCMDependencies/popup/match_2011.html

Quite impressive.

I was really impressed by their 2014 match list but they did have some people with prelims and some matching at cleveland for IM.

 

[DermViser]

I was really impressed by their 2014 match list but they did have some people with prelims and some matching at cleveland for IM.

Yeah, it looks like a fluke year, bc the previous years they seemed to do great.

 

[KnuxNole]

https://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/education/docs/current-students/sample-mspe-2010.pdf

http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/sc...udent-affairs/upload/Jane-Doe-outstanding.pdf

http://residency.wustl.edu/Application/Pages/Application Materials.aspx#MSPE

Whoa, that is quite detailed :O

 

[DermViser]

Whoa, that is quite detailed :O

I guess the more "elite" schools have their residents and attendings write more since it reflects on the school. Who knows.

 

[KnuxNole]

True. I, personally would write directly positive and constructive things to work on, with details and vivid examples proving why. After all, the primary goal from my standpoint is feedback on how to improve and what you're doing right.

I guess that's why it annoys me when the only feedback I get in some places are a silly questionnaire that tells me nothing. I leave thinking "So did I really do a good job here, or did I suck like I assumed every day? Was there really nothing I needed to improve?" Hell, I can't even name anything I did right on one rotation and was simply told I was one of the best people they had worked with :/

 

[DermViser]

True. I, personally would write directly positive and constructive things to work on, with details and vivid examples proving why. After all, the primary goal from my standpoint is feedback on how to improve and what you're doing right.

I guess that's why it annoys me when the only feedback I get in some places are a silly questionnaire that tells me nothing. I leave thinking "So did I really do a good job here, or did I suck like I assumed every day? Was there really nothing I needed to improve?" Hell, I can't even name anything I did right on one rotation and was simply told I was one of the best people they had worked with :/

I think that is what's so frustrating. Residents aren't paid extra to write constructive and good evaluations that are good but fair. Often times, you have to hope that you get the right resident and they're in a good mood when they're filling it out, etc. etc. I think that's why more and more schools are having rotations do mid-rotation feedback so that it's not a complete surprise. at the end of the rotation. I thought this book helped:

 

[maxxor]

All the books by that couple are excellent. Their residency one is even better.

 

[Anastomoses]

This thread seems fine for this:

As far as 3rd year texts are concerned, how valuable would you say the following are:

Are things like pen-lights of any real value to have on you?

 

[maxxor]

Maxwell is valuable. The rest are not useful at all.

Replace Tarascon with either ePocrates or Micromedex.

First aid for wards should be replaced with Desai and Katta for general information on not how to be a screw up.

For shelf specific resources, the general rule is Uworld step 2 ck + case files +/- pretest.

Penlights are a must. Few residents if any will have one, so you will be the star if you can consistently have one.

 

[Anastomoses]

Replace Tarascon with either ePocrates or Micromedex.

First aid for wards should be replaced with Desai and Katta for general information on not how to be a screw up.

For shelf specific resources, the general rule is Uworld step 2 ck + case files +/- pretest.

Penlights are a must. Few residents if any will have one, so you will be the star if you can consistently have one.

Ordering penlights w/pupil gauges right now.
Thanks for the extra thumbs up on Maxwell.

Now as for tarascon...I've heard that even with epocrates, some people still love having the pocket tarascon for looking things up swiftly but then some complain the text is too small to be worth it? Have you looked at it?

 

[maxxor]

Ordering penlights w/pupil gauges right now.
Thanks for the extra thumbs up on Maxwell.

Now as for tarascon...I've heard that even with epocrates, some people still love having the pocket tarascon for looking things up swiftly but then some complain the text is too small to be worth it? Have you looked at it?

You won't want to carry Tarascon. Trust me. The fewer books/resource you have to lug around in your white coat, the more your neck will appreciate you. Just use the epocrates/micromedex combo. You won't be looking them up on the fly anyway. You'll look up drug info while writing your notes, so you will have time to browse on your i-Android of choice.

 

[DermViser]

This thread seems fine for this:

As far as 3rd year texts are concerned, how valuable would you say the following are:

Are things like pen-lights of any real value to have on you?

First Aid for the Wards is better to acquaint yourself with how things work on the clerkship. That being said, I think the author of the 250 mistakes book, has clerkship specific books _____ mistakes on the Surgery Clerkship for example.

 

[maxxor]

This is the one I was referred to. It's the updated version of the 250 mistakes book which has rotation specific advice on how to do integrate yourself with the flow of rotations.

http://www.amazon.com/Success-Wards-250-Rules-Clerkship/dp/0972556192

First aid for the Wards was universally panned at my school in favor of the Katta/Desai book.

 

[DermViser]

This is the one I was referred to. It's the updated version of the 250 mistakes book which has rotation specific advice on how to do integrate yourself with the flow of rotations.

http://www.amazon.com/Success-Wards-250-Rules-Clerkship/dp/0972556192

First aid for the Wards was universally panned at my school in favor of the Katta/Desai book.

First Aid for the Wards is not an all encompassing book, and I don't think it was meant to be. It covers the topics that frequently pop up on the wards and each section is a quick read.

They now have a First Aid for the Clerkship series, which tend to be more clerkship specific:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Latha Stead&search-alias=books&text=Latha Stead&sort=relevancerank

I would say the clerkship mistake specific books in the Samir Desai series are also good:
http://www.amazon.com/Samir-P.-Desai/e/B001K7WMKS/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

• Surgery Clerkship: 150 Biggest Mistakes And How To Avoid Them
• Internal Medicine Clerkship: 150 Biggest Mistakes And How To Avoid Them
• Pediatrics Clerkship: 101 Biggest Mistakes and How to Avoid Them

Would be nice if he had updated them, but maybe it wasn't necesssary.

 

[DermViser]

Ordering penlights w/pupil gauges right now.
Thanks for the extra thumbs up on Maxwell.

Now as for tarascon...I've heard that even with epocrates, some people still love having the pocket tarascon for looking things up swiftly but then some complain the text is too small to be worth it? Have you looked at it?

I think it depends how fast you are with Epocrates vs. flipping with Tarascon. There is also a Taraccon Pharmacopoeia that is slightly bigger than the Pocket size so that the text is much easier to read.