Why so little discussion of class?

[Cytokine2014]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Class is a huge component of the admissions process.

1.It's involved heavily in whether you're designated as disadvantaged
2. It's the biggest reason so many people say "a time of adversity? You mean when I had to figure out the scheduling to take a summer class?" Or "I haven't had any real challenges. What do I say?"
3. Medical school is designed for wealthy people with a lot of resources available to them https://www.aamc.org/download/165418/data/aibvol9_no11.pdf.pdf
4. Financial barriers. 'Nough said.

Question: why don't we talk about this more on SDN? (Or IRL but that's for another day)

 

[GonnaBeADocOneDay]

Because being truly disadvantaged is not something you can pick or choose, it is something that was out of your control long before you were an adult. Talking about class will not change anything and every "am I disadvantaged?" thread basically turns into a pissing contest of missed opportunities along the way and how they then qualify the person to check the disadvantaged box on the app. Some are truly disadvantaged, but regardless good grades, high MCAT and exceptional ECs are what matters in admissions, not class or SES.

Be the best candidate that you can be and show medical schools you have what it takes to be a good physician, regardless of where you come from.

 

[DokterMom]

• Because the influence of class and SES is pervasive yet largely below the radar for those who are advantaged by it.
• Those who do not benefit from those advantages are seen as 'whiners' or 'entitled' if they speak of it.
• Those who are advantaged and speak of it without finesse are labeled as suffering from 'liberal guilt'.
• And even those who were 'born on third base' like to believe they are entitled to take credit for hitting that home run.

 

[NonTrad16]

Do you want to talk about class issues, or about why we don't talk about class? I'm conflicted.

I'd say we don't talk about it because of the points mentioned above. People don't like to talk about money, and it's very easy to get into a 'contest' (winner gets: nothing).

To your other points: Yes, class is a big factor in life, starting in early childhood and on through medical school (or whatever someone chooses to pursue). One we can't control, and you just have to move forward with. That said, to limit 'adversity' to SES based is rather narrow. One persons adversity may be financial, another could be family (parental death, divorce, sibling 'troubles'), or very personal (abuse, illness).

If someone is on here asking about what they should say, it could be that they only have things that are too personal or unfavorable (who wants to fess up to depression on their app?). And really, if their greatest struggle is a class scheduling conflict... what do you want? (Ultimate advantaged premed gunner move: submit yourself to adversity so you can talk about it on your app!) Just because they haven't personally endured something doesn't mean they can't be understanding.

Class if a systemic issue that permeates education, careers, etc. Any of the linked med school stats would likely apply to an even more dramatic degree to undergrad education...

 

[nwts]

Most of the discussion on this forum is about how to improve people's applications and make them more likely to get in. Since there is no piece of advice any of us can give to drastically change someone's financial situation, there isn't much to talk about. If somebody has a question about whether or not they qualify as socioeconomically disadvantaged, people can help them sort that out. If someone has questions about ways to save money throughout this process, people can offer suggestions. Those conversations are actually going on in this forum. However, while it is true that people who have lots of money can submit more secondaries, pay for a bunch of expensive MCAT prep courses and materials, and more easily afford medical school, there is nothing we (random other pre-meds) can do to change that. We can talk about these things until we're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that these situations exist and will continue to exist. Really, medical school applications are just like the rest of life in this aspect. There will always be a ton of things that are easier if you're wealthy, but that's just how the world works. Applicants would do better to focus on the things they can change (GPA, MCAT score, ECs, personal statement, secondaries) than how many advantages there are to being wealthy. Is it unfair? Maybe, but that doesn't make it any more changeable.

 

[Flashfan]

In almost every post about disadvantaged status people seem to love to play Devil's Advocate or are just determined to discount the struggles of others. We have ad people who grew up homeless part of their early years, with drug-addicted parents be asked if they feel disadvantage since they ended up at an ivy League school or went to college at all. If someone's family fought back from adversity and are better (middle class again) now, then others question the need to write disadvantaged. I will let my SES status speak for itself, along with my first-generation college status.
Those of us who were not raised middle class normally just stay silent on the issue and just hope we get into med school.

 

[EthylMethylMan]

SDN just isn't a very classy place.

 

[Cytokine2014]

Those of us who were not raised middle class normally just stay silent on the issue and just hope we get into med school.

This is what I want to address. I wish there was more community around this, more discussion from people like us who are lower middle or working class. No, we can't change it. And we shouldn't have to, honestly. But along the way, we don't have to be alone in the process.

Many of us have had to learn a lot of tips and tricks of surviving undergrad and the application process and probably med school too with the unique perspectives and challenges associated with being different by virtue of class.

Instead of being silent, we have an opportunity to help each other learn and grow and I wish there was more structure and community for that.

 

[Lucca]

This is what I want to address. I wish there was more community around this, more discussion from people like us who are lower middle or working class. No, we can't change it. And we shouldn't have to, honestly. But along the way, we don't have to be alone in the process.

Many of us have had to learn a lot of tips and tricks of surviving undergrad and the application process and probably med school too with the unique perspectives and challenges associated with being different by virtue of class.

Instead of being silent, we have an opportunity to help each other learn and grow and I wish there was more structure and community for that.

While I agree completely and this is a great idea, SDN is not the place for doing such a thing. Building a community on your campus would be far more valuable to your peers.

We talk about class on SDN (or at least I have) often enough I think. SES is certaintly considered in the admissions process. However, if you are not wealthy in this country everything is basically much harder for nearly no reason. It's awful and it's a problem but I would say it's a problem most college students are highly aware of (although most are not very sensitive to it, at least not here in Texas).

On SDN we run the risk of creating a vitriolic argument that only serves to scare off people with legitimate concerns.

 

[The Real SVB]

I wish there was more community around this, more discussion from people like us who are lower middle or working class.

That's a great goal (no sarcasm whatsoever), but you need to go do it in real life

 

[Cytokine2014]

That's a great goal (no sarcasm whatsoever), but you need to go do it in real life

I am doing it in real life.
But some people don't have that option in their schools or whatever. There's no reason it should be impossible here.

So to specify my question, I guess...

WHY do people stay silent about this? Because they're overwhelmed by vitriol when they do? I'd love to know what would encourage more candid conversation.

 

[The Real SVB]

There's no reason it should be impossible here.

Even the newest, most cutting-edge work in sociology and political science do not encourage coalition-building or advocacy on the Internet, much less on anonymous forums that are so prone to trolling, derailing, and other hassles. Beyond academia, no one who has done any sort or organizing would ever promote this as anything close to a fruitful effort. As is apparent by now, I am in that camp.

These things are best done in person and most meaningful when people can put a face on those they are interacting with. You're underestimating the inherent need for humanity on this subject. The population you wish to bring together are also the ones who feel most uncomfortable discussing their situations with others; if they're so uncomfortable doing this in person, what makes them want to do it online to complete strangers (even if they themselves are anonymous)?
P.S. Don't say you're on a mission to change this kind of stigma; that's honorable, but again, the Internet is NOT the place to even start scratching the surface here.

Source: years of community work done in college on coalition building and grassroots organization.

 

[raiderette]

If I were to be philosophical about it, America vilifies the poor. The idea of the Protestant work ethic makes it easy to label our parents, and ourselves as lazy or ignorant, etc. Once (if) we make it we can brag about pulling ourselves up, but until that happens, lower/working class are suspect. It was sobering to print up my application on AMCAS. One of the first things that I saw were boxes that outlined my childhood poverty. Am I more than that? Absolutely. You couldn't pick me out as a poor kid on my campus. I look the same, I am involved, I work very hard to fit in. Even my parents fit in when they come to campus. You wouldn't know that they are only hs graduates. We may have been poor but we are hard working and well-read. Even now they are better off than when I was growing up, the fact that my parents have better jobs does not make them better people than they were when we were living on beans rice and eggs.
I try to stay out of the SES and URM arguments, mainly because I can't change my upbringing and background. In my real life, I try to mentor other low-SES students and first-generation college students. I am proud when I get the same scores as the doctor's children with better resources. I would like to think that my background will make me a better doctor because I can identify with a larger base.

 

[Cytokine2014]

Even the newest, most cutting-edge work in sociology and political science do not encourage coalition-building or advocacy on the Internet, much less on anonymous forums that are so prone to trolling, derailing, and other hassles. Beyond academia, no one who has done any sort or organizing would ever promote this as anything close to a fruitful effort. As is apparent by now, I am in that camp.

These things are best done in person and most meaningful when people can put a face on those they are interacting with. You're underestimating the inherent need for humanity on this subject. The population you wish to bring together are also the ones who feel most uncomfortable discussing their situations with others; if they're so uncomfortable doing this in person, what makes them want to do it online to complete strangers (even if they themselves are anonymous)?
P.S. Don't say you're on a mission to change this kind of stigma; that's honorable, but again, the Internet is NOT the place to even start scratching the surface here.

Source: years of community work done in college on coalition building and grassroots organization.

All I'm saying is that the resources suck. Med school admissions / the road there could be less of a **** show for people who are SES.

I'm not so naive as to be "on a mission" to decrease stigma. If I wanted to do that I would focus on the privileged instead.

 

[Affiche]

I think it would beneficial to have a thread for disadvantaged applicants for this cycle. There are things that would be helpful to know that only disadvantaged applicants can answer for one another.

Did your disadvantaged status come up in your interviews at all?
How many of your schools made you pay for secondaries even though you qualified for FAP?
What was your budget for secondaries + interviews if you had FAP?
If being disadvantaged influenced your to pursue medicine, what is an appropriate way to discuss this in a PS?
And so on and so on....

 

[Affiche]

My concern would be that it would turn into a "Should I apply disadvantaged?" thread instead, which isn't what I'm interested in.

 

[The Real SVB]

How many of your schools made you pay for secondaries even though you qualified for FAP?

I'm hoping very few do this or else I will be pissed

 

[Affiche]

I'm hoping very few do this or else I will be pissed

LOL I know! I heard that Tulane only reduces it. I've been mad stressing about my budget because I have no idea what to expect to spend on secondaries.

 

[The Real SVB]

LOL I know! I heard that Tulane only reduces it. I've been mad stressing about my budget because I have no idea what to expect to spend on secondaries.

I think all the top private schools I'm applying to are fully waived..which is good since they're three-quarters of my list. So that leaves 4 schools where it's iffy. But I'll look up their bulletins and policies at some point to get a good sense of where things are at.

 

[nwts]

All I'm saying is that the resources suck. Med school admissions / the road there could be less of a **** show for people who are SES.

I'm not so naive as to be "on a mission" to decrease stigma. If I wanted to do that I would focus on the privileged instead.

What do you mean by resources? Do you mean helpful advice from other people, or do you mean monetary and material assistance (like fee reduction, helping pay for travel to interviews, free test prep resources, etc.)?

If you're talking about advice, that is available here on SDN. People ask questions all the time about ways to do things on a budget, and others respond with all of the helpful advice they can give. If you're talking about material and monetary assistance, there isn't a whole lot of point in talking about it on SDN because nothing we say will make those resources become available to people. I'm not trying to be crass and rude, I'm just pointing out that I think there actually is a lot of helpful discussion about topics pertaining to financial issues going on in SDN forums, but there is a limit to what talking can do. We can do the little things like share money-saving tips, but we can't change the system.

 

[Affiche]

OP refers to resources in terms of advice.

I would argue that there is a point in talking about it, as the answers to these questions are very different depending on if you're FAP or not. The budget for secondaries is in a different world for someone on FAP vs someone that isn't, for example. There could definitely be value in having an open discussion about the application process from a disadvantaged perspective. If people don't want to participate, they don't have to.

 

[nwts]

OP refers to resources in terms of advice.

I would argue that there is a point in talking about it, as the answers to these questions are very different depending on if you're FAP or not. The budget for secondaries is in a different world for someone on FAP vs someone that isn't, for example. There could definitely be value in having an open discussion about the application process from a disadvantaged perspective. If people don't want to participate, they don't have to.

I certainly am not saying there is no point in talking about it. My answer to his/her initial question of: "Why don't we talk about class issues?" is something like this:

There actually is a lot of discussion of class issues pertaining to giving advice to people on how to navigate the process as a person without a lot of means. Many questions are asked on this forum about those kinds of topics, and many people answer with the advice that they have. This is good, and this is what should happen. As far as the bigger issues like putting everyone on a more even playing field, it doesn't serve much purpose to talk about those huge-scale issues because nothing we say will fix anything that way.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't talk about anything pertaining to these issues, just that we're already talking about the issues that we can be of any help on. If people have more questions that they would like advice on, I highly encourage them to start the discussion on those specific questions.

 

[ndafife]

Go look at one of the many URM forums on here and you will see why many people steer clear of getting into discussions about class

 

[Affiche]

I understand, thanks for clarifying!

I guess I just feel a bit lost sometimes in the application process, but much more than the typical applicant does. When I see parents posting in here for their children or read about parents reading over PS and helping with fees, I feel like my disadvantaged status is compounded. Not only did we fight an uphill battle to get here, but we're disadvantaged here as well. I've been the annoying pre-med that PMs adcoms with my questions because frankly, there isn't a lot of advice out there tailored to a disadvantaged applicant. It would be nice to have this information readily available to other applicants (perhaps in a disadvantaged thread?) so we don't all have to PM our individual questions.

PS thanks adcoms for being an invaluable resource!

 

[raiderette]

When I see parents posting in here for their children or read about parents reading over PS and helping with fees, I feel like my disadvantaged status is compounded. Not only did we fight an uphill battle to get here, but we're disadvantaged here as well.

I feel like the parents that post on here are basically dismissed or treated with disdain. I did have my mother read my PS because she is a brilliant writer and tough critic, but hopefully there are a few people in your life that can read it for you. Even of SDN you can find qualified readers.

 

[Affiche]

You're missing the point.

It doesn't matter if parents on here are dismissed, it matters that they're on here at all. These parents are invested in their child's success and go out of their way to be helpful to their applicant.

The quality of assistance I would receive from an anonymous source or an educated peer is not tantamount to the help you'd receive from your educated parents. For one, your parents are invested in your success and want you to succeed. You cannot compare the two.

This is a good example of the misunderstanding of how being disadvantaged really affects an applicant at every level.

 

[The Real SVB]

you will see why many people steer clear of getting into discussions about class

What are you talking about no SDN thread has ever been locked by a mod because of flame posts and outrightly racist arguments about money and race

oops did I let the cat of the bag *meows*

 

[nwts]

I understand, thanks for clarifying!

I guess I just feel a bit lost sometimes in the application process, but much more than the typical applicant does. When I see parents posting in here for their children or read about parents reading over PS and helping with fees, I feel like my disadvantaged status is compounded. Not only did we fight an uphill battle to get here, but we're disadvantaged here as well. I've been the annoying pre-med that PMs adcoms with my questions because frankly, there isn't a lot of advice out there tailored to a disadvantaged applicant. It would be nice to have this information readily available to other applicants (perhaps in a disadvantaged thread?) so we don't all have to PM our individual questions.

PS thanks adcoms for being an invaluable resource!

I think your idea about a thread for disadvantaged applicants sounds like a great idea! I would encourage you to start one of those. If you do, I would also put a note in the first post that the purpose of the thread is to share advice for people who are looking to overcome some of the obstacles of being a disadvantaged applicant (test prep resources, help with personal statements, advice on saving money throughout the process without causing severe negative effects on the student's application, etc.) and not to help a person determine whether they are or are not disadvantaged. Conversations about whether or not people are disadvantaged tend to turn into arguments that sometimes turn rude and offensive, so it would be best to discourage those kinds of posts in that kind of thread.

 

[raiderette]

You're missing the point.

It doesn't matter if parents on here are dismissed, it matters that they're on here at all. These parents are invested in their child's success and go out of their way to be helpful to their applicant.

The quality of assistance I would receive from an anonymous source or an educated peer is not tantamount to the help you'd receive from your educated parents. For one, your parents are invested in your success and want you to succeed. You cannot compare the two.

This is a good example of the misunderstanding of how being disadvantaged really affects an applicant at every level.

Obviously you are confusing me with someone else. My parents are high school graduates. I think you are trying to associate parental involvement with SES status and that assumes that parents that are lower SES do not care about their children's welfare or education. I have seen wealthy parents offer no support to their children. I happen to have parents that cared, even though they did not go through the process themselves. In my working class neighborhood they aspired for all of us to go to college. It didn't happen for most of us, but it was a hope.

 

[Affiche]

Obviously you are confusing me with someone else. My parents are high school graduates. I think you are trying to associate parental involvement with SES status and that assumes that parents that are lower SES do not care about their children's welfare or education. I have seen wealthy parents offer no support to their children. I happen to have parents that cared, even though they did not go through the process themselves. In my working class neighborhood they aspired for all of us to go to college. It didn't happen for most of us, but it was a hope.

I'm not trying to associate anything, but it seems you may be drawing that conclusion from a narrow view of what disadvantaged means. Many students are disadvantaged because their parents are not involved in their lives, myself included. In additional to being low SES, the lack of support or guidance presents another challenge to the process. That's what my point was.

 

[Cytokine2014]

[QUOTE="nwts, post: 16585382, member: 697186"

If you're talking about advice, that is available here on SDN. People ask questions all the time about ways to do things on a budget, and others respond with all of the helpful advice they can give.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but SDN is not always a reliable resource. This is not the same as having access to consistent, accurate, and reliable information which many applicants get from pre health advisors or paid consultants.

SDN is also incredibly discouraging for a lot of people. When you've been raised in circumstances that teach you that you're not worth much, the voices that way "you can't do this" are much louder than the ones saying "go for it." You don't have to have a 3.8 and a 37 mcat, especially if you're URM/disadvantaged. But if you come to the wrong thread on the wrong day or with a short supply of hope, SDN will screw you over.

SDN is not enough for students from disadvantaged backgrounds. Not even close.

 

[gettheleadout]

Sorry, but SDN is not always a reliable resource. This is not the same as having access to consistent, accurate, and reliable information which many applicants get from pre health advisors or paid consultants.

The irony, it burns!

 

[Cytokine2014]

The irony, it burns!

SDN is a community. A gunnery one, sure. But that's not requisite.

One of the biggest issues with being URM or disadvantaged is being alone. If it were possible to create community around that here or elsewhere that would probably be helpful.

But honestly, I'm done at this point. The complete disinterest in making this useful is pretty remarkable and perhaps that proves your point.

 

[gannicus89]

[QUOTE="nwts, post: 16585382, member: 697186"

Sorry, but SDN is not always a reliable resource. This is not the same as having access to consistent, accurate, and reliable information which many applicants get from pre health advisors or paid consultants.

SDN is also incredibly discouraging for a lot of people. When you've been raised in circumstances that teach you that you're not worth much, the voices that way "you can't do this" are much louder than the ones saying "go for it." You don't have to have a 3.8 and a 37 mcat, especially if you're URM/disadvantaged. But if you come to the wrong thread on the wrong day or with a short supply of hope, SDN will screw you over.

SDN is not enough for students from disadvantaged backgrounds. Not even close.

I agree. While many users are helpful and I have learned a great deal from being on here...I do see a lot of misinformation being spread around, so if someone is using SDN as their primary source of premedical advising...that is a serious issue. As a person who has been out of undergrad for 2 years, I don't really have access to my undergrad's premed advising center so I'm essentially winging it...but it certainly does help knowing that if push came to shove, I could ask my parents for help to pay some kind of consultant to help me troubleshoot issues. Thankfully, it hasn't come to that point- but it's important to note that I am not a URM 21 year old. I'm older and wiser and less liable to fall for the misinformation that appears on here.

 

[raiderette]

There were people that were interested. Simply start a thread, called it something like SES Disadvantaged Support thread and those that are interested will find their way over. More than one person in this very thread expressed interest. It doesn't need to be a huge forum and you can put some ground rules in the initial post if you feel you must. LGBT threads, URM threads and low stats threads have formed communities that have lasted for multiple cycles.
Just do it!

 

[nwts]

Sorry, but SDN is not always a reliable resource. This is not the same as having access to consistent, accurate, and reliable information which many applicants get from pre health advisors or paid consultants.

SDN is also incredibly discouraging for a lot of people. When you've been raised in circumstances that teach you that you're not worth much, the voices that way "you can't do this" are much louder than the ones saying "go for it." You don't have to have a 3.8 and a 37 mcat, especially if you're URM/disadvantaged. But if you come to the wrong thread on the wrong day or with a short supply of hope, SDN will screw you over.

SDN is not enough for students from disadvantaged backgrounds. Not even close.

I don't mean this in a rude way, but I'm just kind of confused about what you are looking for. You asked why SDN doesn't talk about socioeconomic status issues. I answered that people talk about it in a way that is of use (providing advice to the best of their ability), but they tend not to talk about the larger societal issue of wealthy people having an easier time with a lot of things because that sort of discussion doesn't actually help those people at all. Just acknowledging that there is a problem and we would like change doesn't help the people experiencing the problem, so SDN has limited itself to discussions that are actually helpful, and those are discussions in which advice is provided. I understand your point that SDN is not always 100% reliable on every single thing because these are just anonymous people on the internet, but then what would you like SDN to do? SDN can't do anything about its unreliability because that's just how internet forums work. What kind of productive assistance are you looking for from SDN?

As far as your suggestion that people create a community at SDN for individuals facing these issues to support each other, that has been suggested on this thread and many people have agreed that this would be a great idea. I am very interested in finding ways for SDN to assist individuals facing these issues, I'm just not sure what you're looking for.

 

[Affiche]

After I submit secondaries I will make a thread for disadvantaged students. I think it would be beneficial to have a list of schools that waives the secondary fee, among other pieces of information.

 

[Cytokine2014]

I don't mean this in a rude way, but I'm just kind of confused about what you are looking for. You asked why SDN doesn't talk about socioeconomic status issues. I answered that people talk about it in a way that is of use (providing advice to the best of their ability), but they tend not to talk about the larger societal issue of wealthy people having an easier time with a lot of things because that sort of discussion doesn't actually help those people at all. Just acknowledging that there is a problem and we would like change doesn't help the people experiencing the problem, so SDN has limited itself to discussions that are actually helpful, and those are discussions in which advice is provided. I understand your point that SDN is not always 100% reliable on every single thing because these are just anonymous people on the internet, but then what would you like SDN to do? SDN can't do anything about its unreliability because that's just how internet forums work. What kind of productive assistance are you looking for from SDN?

As far as your suggestion that people create a community at SDN for individuals facing these issues to support each other, that has been suggested on this thread and many people have agreed that this would be a great idea. I am very interested in finding ways for SDN to assist individuals facing these issues, I'm just not sure what you're looking for.

Yeah, good point. I'm not sure what I want. I just came in with a question and then ended up responding to folks. Not my most organized moment. I'm sure a thread would be helpful.

I do think talking about inequality is important, because people who aren't affected by it can't ignore it if it's out in the open. But that's for another day.

I don't expect SDN to be a stand in for the support systems that should be elsewhere because as you mentioned it IS an Internet forum. Addressing systemic issues isn't SDN's problem to deal with. I'm not asking for that, not by a long shot.

I just wanted to know why people didn't talk about the larger issues. I'm pretty accustomed to calling people out on their behavior. I wondered if a structural undertone might emerge, and it seems to just be that we are a relatively small number of voices that get pretty drowned out by asshats. but we are generally game for a thread like that.

 

[ChillDawg]

If I were to be philosophical about it, America vilifies the poor. The idea of the Protestant work ethic makes it easy to label our parents, and ourselves as lazy or ignorant, etc. Once (if) we make it we can brag about pulling ourselves up, but until that happens, lower/working class are suspect. It was sobering to print up my application on AMCAS. One of the first things that I saw were boxes that outlined my childhood poverty. Am I more than that? Absolutely. You couldn't pick me out as a poor kid on my campus. I look the same, I am involved, I work very hard to fit in. Even my parents fit in when they come to campus. You wouldn't know that they are only hs graduates. We may have been poor but we are hard working and well-read. Even now they are better off than when I was growing up, the fact that my parents have better jobs does not make them better people than they were when we were living on beans rice and eggs.
I try to stay out of the SES and URM arguments, mainly because I can't change my upbringing and background. In my real life, I try to mentor other low-SES students and first-generation college students. I am proud when I get the same scores as the doctor's children with better resources. I would like to think that my background will make me a better doctor because I can identify with a larger base.

As an SES person myself, I agree with a lot in your post.

However, the bold bit is just a crock of ****.
Do you know what it means 'to vilify?' Please, tell me about when you were abused and disparaged for being SES besides some random, odd case that isn't indicative of this nation as a whole?
Did you get locked up in a stockade in the middle of your college quad after people found out how little your parents earned? Did they throw rotten tomatoes at you? Put up posters of your face with the phrase "plebeian spotted" underneath?
Did your professors spit on you in lecture?

FFS, you were most likely given financial aid (as I was) and the general sympathy of friends and the student body as a whole. I see a lot more of the 'eat the rich' sentiment on college campuses than any sort of 'vilification of the poor.' The same for the internet.

Why do most SES people automatically default to this sort of victim complex where the world is out to get them? Yeah, being poor blows, standing in line at food banks can be humiliating, and having holes in your shoes in middle school is embarrassing. As someone who's experienced all of these things, I can attest to the fact that none of this was caused by 'America.' What America did do is provide social services that kept my family alive and got me to college with opportunity to do much more with my life. Same for you, I'm sure.

Sure, 'microaggressions' happen all the time for those who love to keep score, but that's more out of benign ignorance from the general population and not some sort of malicious smear campaign.

/rant

 

[f4reignbeauty]

I think it would beneficial to have a thread for disadvantaged applicants for this cycle. There are things that would be helpful to know that only disadvantaged applicants can answer for one another.

Did your disadvantaged status come up in your interviews at all?
How many of your schools made you pay for secondaries even though you qualified for FAP?
What was your budget for secondaries + interviews if you had FAP?
If being disadvantaged influenced your to pursue medicine, what is an appropriate way to discuss this in a PS?
And so on and so on....

Didn't read the whole thread, but:
1. MSAR will let you know if a school accepts your fee waiver.
2. No, my disadvantaged status did not come up on any of my interviews, although I had no issues with discussing my upbringing.

I can PM you if you'd like answers to any of the other questions, I'll help as best as I can. 🙂

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

As an SES person myself, I agree with a lot in your post.

However, the bold bit is just a crock of ****.
Do you know what it means 'to vilify?' Please, tell me about when you were abused and disparaged for being SES besides some random, odd case that isn't indicative of this nation as a whole?
Did you get locked up in a stockade in the middle of your college quad after people found out how little your parents earned? Did they throw rotten tomatoes at you? Put up posters of your face with the phrase "plebeian spotted" underneath?
Did your professors spit on you in lecture?

FFS, you were most likely given financial aid (as I was) and the general sympathy of friends and the student body as a whole. I see a lot more of the 'eat the rich' sentiment on college campuses than any sort of 'vilification of the poor.' The same for the internet.

Why do most SES people automatically default to this sort of victim complex where the world is out to get them? Yeah, being poor blows, standing in line at food banks can be humiliating, and having holes in your shoes in middle school is embarrassing. As someone who's experienced all of these things, I can attest to the fact that none of this was caused by 'America.' What America did do is provide social services that kept my family alive and got me to college with opportunity to do much more with my life. Same for you, I'm sure.

Sure, 'microaggressions' happen all the time for those who love to keep score, but that's more out of benign ignorance from the general population and not some sort of malicious smear campaign.

/rant

vilify:
1 : to lower in estimation or importance
2 : to utter slanderous and abusive statements against : defame

1 happens all the time.
2 is pretty common, especially when it's tied to race.

 

[Affiche]

Didn't read the whole thread, but:
1. MSAR will let you know if a school accepts your fee waiver.
2. No, my disadvantaged status did not come up on any of my interviews, although I had no issues with discussing my upbringing.

I can PM you if you'd like answers to any of the other questions, I'll help as best as I can. 🙂

1. Doesn't MSAR only tell you if a fee waiver is available, not if the fee is completely waived or if it's just reduced?
2. I've also heard from other people that their disadvantaged status did come up in multiple interviews, so I'm wondering how common this is.

 

[f4reignbeauty]

1. Doesn't MSAR only tell you if a fee waiver is available, not if the fee is completely waived or if it's just reduced?
2. I've also heard from other people that their disadvantaged status did come up in multiple interviews, so I'm wondering how common this is.

Yes, it will tell you if the fee waiver is available. On schools where it isn't available, it'll just say no. I'm not sure of schools where there are reduced secondary fees for FAP recipients, since I did not come across that myself.

Personally, my disadvantaged status was not brought up at my interviews, but everything is up for grabs.

 

[sazerac]

I'm not sure of schools where there are reduced secondary fees for FAP recipients,

Does anybody know if there are any other schools that merely reduce the secondary fees for FAP, besides Tulane?

Tulane will also reduce (not eliminate) the secondary fee if you do a stint at AmeriCorps. If you are so poor you needed to get paid to do your volunteer work, then you have crossed the threshold from being poor to being po'.

 

[DarthKat]

You know what's the worst thing about FAP? Qualifying for it based on your parent's income, but then no longer qualifying because of your gap year income. How do SES people take gap years? I can't not work and the ~30K for lab jobs doesn't leave much money after living expenses for applications (I'm also from NY where salaries are inflated and the cost of living sucks up everyone's money).

My income was counted separately from my parents for FAP, so I still qualified despite my gap year job.

 

[deleted577188]

If I were to be philosophical about it, America vilifies the poor. The idea of the Protestant work ethic makes it easy to label our parents, and ourselves as lazy or ignorant, etc. Once (if) we make it we can brag about pulling ourselves up, but until that happens, lower/working class are suspect. It was sobering to print up my application on AMCAS. One of the first things that I saw were boxes that outlined my childhood poverty. Am I more than that? Absolutely. You couldn't pick me out as a poor kid on my campus. I look the same, I am involved, I work very hard to fit in. Even my parents fit in when they come to campus. You wouldn't know that they are only hs graduates. We may have been poor but we are hard working and well-read. Even now they are better off than when I was growing up, the fact that my parents have better jobs does not make them better people than they were when we were living on beans rice and eggs.
I try to stay out of the SES and URM arguments, mainly because I can't change my upbringing and background. In my real life, I try to mentor other low-SES students and first-generation college students. I am proud when I get the same scores as the doctor's children with better resources. I would like to think that my background will make me a better doctor because I can identify with a larger base.

This.

 

[DokterMom]

vilify:
1 : to lower in estimation or importance
2 : to utter slanderous and abusive statements against : defame

1 happens all the time.
2 is pretty common, especially when it's tied to race.

So very, very true.

Why don't they just get jobs? (They have jobs. Part time with no benefits.)
Why don't they get better jobs? (No nice clothes for the interview, so they 'don't fit in'. Petty criminal records for 'walking while black' or other stupid charges they were too poor to fight.)
They could go to night school and get a decent education. (How can I get there? No car, no busses. Who will take care of the kids?)
They shouldn't have children they can't afford. (Can't afford birth control or abortion either.)
Education and hard work is the key to success. (Schools in the projects are lousy and the kids who study get beat up on.)
Top colleges are looking for people from disadvantaged backgrounds. (True, but coming from lousy schools with poor test prep, poor advising, no APs and few ECs, SES disadvantaged students' qualifications for those top schools are sub-par.)

I've seen the mistakes my friends from lower SES backgrounds have made. And they're not from lack of trying. --

• - Taking less rigorous HS classes to "Keep their GPAs up" for college.
• - Not preparing for PSAT, SAT and ACT tests because they don't know how high the stakes are.
• - Not understanding how very different a for-profit, community, state, technical and liberal arts college can be.
  
• - Thinking that 'all colleges are alike' so it doesn't really matter where they go.
  
• - Not applying to top colleges because 'they're too expensive' even though some are need-blind and have generous aid packages.
• - Choosing interview clothes that are 'so cute!' with hair and make-up that is fashionable, not professional.
• - Shopping for interview clothes and shoes at cheap stores with poor quality.
• - Writing essays with poor grammar and spelling errors because no one has the skills to detect and fix them.
• - Speaking with 'ghetto' idioms because that's what they hear.
  
• - Getting tattoos and piercings in places that can't be concealed.
• - Consuming a culture of junk TV, pop music only, and limited reading.

Let's just admit it -- There's a 'code' in the upper middle class, just as there is in the working class or 'hood. If someone comes from one background and wants to break into another, they have to learn that code. A century ago, it was called 'elocution' and actually taught in classes.

It's no less real today -- just taboo.

 

[altblue]

So very, very true.

Why don't they just get jobs? (They have jobs. Part time with no benefits.)
Why don't they get better jobs? (No nice clothes for the interview, so they 'don't fit in'. Petty criminal records for 'walking while black' or other stupid charges they were too poor to fight.)
They could go to night school and get a decent education. (How can I get there? No car, no busses. Who will take care of the kids?)
They shouldn't have children they can't afford. (Can't afford birth control or abortion either.)
Education and hard work is the key to success. (Schools in the projects are lousy and the kids who study get beat up on.)
Top colleges are looking for people from disadvantaged backgrounds. (True, but coming from lousy schools with poor test prep, poor advising, no APs and few ECs, SES disadvantaged students' qualifications for those top schools are sub-par.)

I've seen the mistakes my friends from lower SES backgrounds have made. And they're not from lack of trying. --

• - Taking less rigorous HS classes to "Keep their GPAs up" for college.
• - Not preparing for PSAT, SAT and ACT tests because they don't know how high the stakes are.
• - Not understanding how very different a for-profit, community, state, technical and liberal arts college can be.
  
• - Thinking that 'all colleges are alike' so it doesn't really matter where they go.
  
• - Not applying to top colleges because 'they're too expensive' even though some are need-blind and have generous aid packages.
• - Choosing interview clothes that are 'so cute!' with hair and make-up that is fashionable, not professional.
• - Shopping for interview clothes and shoes at cheap stores with poor quality.
• - Writing essays with poor grammar and spelling errors because no one has the skills to detect and fix them.
• - Speaking with 'ghetto' idioms because that's what they hear.
  
• - Getting tattoos and piercings in places that can't be concealed.
• - Consuming a culture of junk TV, pop music only, and limited reading.

Let's just admit it -- There's a 'code' in the upper middle class, just as there is in the working class or 'hood. If someone comes from one background and wants to break into another, they have to learn that code. A century ago, it was called 'elocution' and actually taught in classes.

It's no less real today -- just taboo.

The only way you can pretty much overcome this dearth of information and cracking this code is by obsessively seeking out resources. Internet, guidance counselor, whatever. A lot of very bright people who were smart enough to get good grades don't do that, oftentimes because they've learned to be self-sufficient. Poor people with potential tell themselves, I'm smart, I work hard, I'll do fine, but oftentimes that's not enough to become a doctor, lawyer, or banker and have that upward SEC shift. You have to network, you have to play the game too. I'm speaking in broad generalizations, but bear with me..

The weird thing is that people, oftentimes middle class, point to the rare lateral shift, like the Mexican immigrant who went on to Berkeley, HMS, and neurosurg residency, as an example of what you can do when you start from nothing. This is in no way representative of what the usual poor person can do and this rarity probably the reason I've heard about it. I've seen plenty of people with the potential to do great things drop out of college, high school, because they didn't have that family structure or "culture of education" upper middle class students have to keep it going.

 

[nwts]

Not understanding how very different a for-profit, community, state, technical and liberal arts college can be.

This is such a huge problem in my area. Maybe they have better ones in other areas, but the for-profit colleges here are a waste of money for nearly everyone who goes to them. Most people who get a degree from a for-profit in my area are only able to get jobs that they were able to get before they got their degree from the for-profit college. I really wish there were somebody informing those people that community college would be a much better option for them.

 

[altblue]

This is such a huge problem in my area. Maybe they have better ones in other areas, but the for-profit colleges here are a waste of money for nearly everyone who goes to them. Most people who get a degree from a for-profit in my area are only able to get jobs that they were able to get before they got their degree from the for-profit college. I really wish there were somebody informing those people that community college would be a much better option for them.

it's sad how you end up paying 100k+ for a degree that's worthless. :/

a 3+1 or 2+2 program with a cc and state school is so muchbetter.