Why such the animosity????????

[huckaaa]

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So, the one thing I hate about this forum is that some people feel the need to constantly put others and their posts down. Why is this? For example, the recent "I wanna be a plastic surgeon." First, this poor person got attacked and told that it was basically impossible for him/her to want to be both a plastic surgeon and a DO. I understand this is unusual, but why not? I know two DO plastic surgeons and both wanted to be DO ( one had a 37 MCAT and 3.9 GPA!). So, yes, it is true, DO schools are "easier to get into" and some people do choose them for this reason, but the bottom line here is everybody wants to be a physician. There are many more examples of this all over SDN. Now, I would expect this out of the pre-allopathic board, but come on guys, be nice!!!! Support your future classmates and inspire them to explore the DO way.

 

[lackoftalent]

.

 

[medhacker]

As years go by the pre-do forum has been looking more and more like pre-allo.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'd say 90% of the fighting on the board comes from people making misinformed statements or judgements about DOs and then pre-osteos defending their turf.


Good post though ... us osteo/pre-osteo students need to stick together👍

 

[mandinca]

It's a stressfull time for all of us. Maintaining our individual dignity is crucial, though.......Good lesson for the future: we'll have to deal with patient/family/co-worker conflict throughout our respective medical practices. It'd be a good idea to get a better understanding of ourselves, and how we relate to others BEFORE we get into the crazy-stressful-whirlwind of medical school. Can I recommend a therapist? 😀

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I hate all people.

 

[Tanner82]

I'd say 90% of the fighting on the board comes from people making misinformed statements or judgements about DOs and then pre-osteos defending their turf.


Good post though ... us osteo/pre-osteo students need to stick together

Yeah that scenario does make up ~90% of the hostility on this board. And I do feel some comaraderie with my fellow pre-osteo SNDers. 👍

 

[Tanner82]

It's a stressfull time for all of us. Maintaining our individual dignity is crucial, though.......Good lesson for the future: we'll have to deal with patient/family/co-worker conflict throughout our respective medical practices. It'd be a good idea to get a better understanding of ourselves, and how we relate to others BEFORE we get into the crazy-stressful-whirlwind of medical school. Can I recommend a therapist? 😀

wow, therapists... what a waste of space... while your at it, could you recommend perhaps maybe a life-coach?

 

[huckaaa]

I'd say 90% of the fighting on the board comes from people making misinformed statements or judgements about DOs and then pre-osteos defending their turf.


Good post though ... us osteo/pre-osteo students need to stick together👍

I understand. As an avid DO fan, it can sometimes be hard when people talk down about the degree. But, like I said, the bottom line is we all want to be medical doctors ( do or md). We shouldn't limit people. Of course, most DO schools stress primary care, and I think that is so wonderful (it is desperately needed!), but don't put people down if that's not their goal. DOs can bring great things to all aspects of medicine. And, if somebody is applying DO because their stats are lower, than that is ok with me too, as long as they've done their homework. I know many people who messed up and deserve a second chance. DOs are the best place for that and that is one reason I love them. I think they make better doctors because of this. It isn't the traditional "perfect student, mommy and daddy made them make good grades and go to medical school" applicant. Of course, not all allopathic are that way either. But, instead, it is people who really want it and have often times worked extra hard, and extra long (post bacc, masters, phd, ect) that apply.

 

[mandinca]

wow, therapists... what a waste of space... while your at it, could you recommend perhaps maybe a life-coach?

Hmmm, afraid of being self-actualized, eh? Maybe its that you're too young and inexperienced to realize what you don't know? 😎 No matter, I'm enjoying my "mature perspective"! 😀

 

[Tanner82]

Hmmm, afraid of being self-actualized, eh? Maybe its that you're too young and inexperienced to realize what you don't know? 😎 No matter, I'm enjoying my "mature perspective"! 😀

hey c'mon, look at the thread title! I'm just joking, I guess therapists can help some people. It could help getting a second opinion by having someone else analyze your problems. I still think a lot of it is BS tho. The life coaches in orange county that make $200 a hour makes me sick.

 

[huckaaa]

wow, therapists... what a waste of space... while your at it, could you recommend perhaps maybe a life-coach?

k

 

[Dabyachunv]

Before we all get together and hug one another lets remember that competition brings out the worst in people. I think everyone could be a little nicer but lets put it into context, most of the self-righteous meanies on the board are lonely-just kidding, not sleeping and stress does get to people. Take a big Woo-saaw, stretch and get over it. Oh yeah, and if anyone tries to correct my verb/word usage or anything...hmmm....😳welll...Woo-saaw

 

[huckaaa]

Before we all get together and hug one another lets remember that competition brings out the worst in people. I think everyone could be a little nicer but lets put it into context, most of the self-righteous meanies on the board are lonely-just kidding, not sleeping and stress does get to people. Take a big Woo-saaw, stretch and get over it. Oh yeah, and if anyone tries to correct my verb/word usage or anything...hmmm....😳welll...Woo-saaw

ohhh, I hate those corrections too!

 

[Tanner82]

Before we all get together and hug one another lets remember that competition brings out the worst in people. I think everyone could be a little nicer but lets put it into context, most of the self-righteous meanies on the board are lonely-just kidding, not sleeping and stress does get to people. Take a big Woo-saaw, stretch and get over it. Oh yeah, and if anyone tries to correct my verb/word usage or anything...hmmm....😳welll...Woo-saaw

Gee... I wonder why the righteous was spelled in a different font... someone is using an online copy and paste on their posts for words they can't want to spell... lol 😀

 

[PatriotsForever]

People suck!!!!😀

 

[prionsRbad]

Mean people suck! (I had a t-shirt when I was 14 with this phrase written on it . . . it's still one of my favorites)!

OP, I feel you. Some people on SDN feel like they can get away with being nasty to others, but that's only because they're hiding behind their computers. I doubt they would say those things to someone's face. 😎

 

[Tanner82]

wow, after I just had a short stint over at the allopathic thread... I can honestly say that on average, there is much more hostility over there. If for nothing else, I want to be a DO so I can post in the more laid-back SDN forum 😀

 

[PlAnEjaNe]

wow, after I just had a short stint over at the allopathic thread... I can honestly say that on average, there is much more hostility over there. If for nothing else, I want to be a DO so I can post in the more laid-back SDN forum 😀

I like to attribute that to the old g-chem adage....'like dissolves like'
i.e. allopathic adcoms can be pretty brutal and as such..so are the people that apply to those programs...they kind of have to be in order to be somewhat realistic about their chances. But all that aside, I do think this forum is about helping each other achieve the same goal: med-school admissions.

PlAnEjaNe

 

[JaggerPlate]

wow, after I just had a short stint over at the allopathic thread... I can honestly say that on average, there is much more hostility over there. If for nothing else, I want to be a DO so I can post in the more laid-back SDN forum 😀

The pre-allo forum gets absurd. People literally sign up for an account to just bash on someone and then the OP will end up like knowing who it is ... and everyone just, wow. The DO has way more love ... group hug ...


I don't think it's any secret why DOs have the amazing bedside manner!!!

 

[Tanner82]

The pre-allo forum gets absurd. People literally sign up for an account to just bash on someone and then the OP will end up like knowing who it is ... and everyone just, wow. The DO has way more love ... group hug ...


I don't think it's any secret why DOs have the amazing bedside manner!!!

I'm so ashamed of myself... I just started trolling the md boards to see if this phenomenom is true

 

[Nasem]

So, the one thing I hate about this forum is that some people feel the need to constantly put others and their posts down. Why is this? For example, the recent "I wanna be a plastic surgeon." First, this poor person got attacked and told that it was basically impossible for him/her to want to be both a plastic surgeon and a DO. I understand this is unusual, but why not? I know two DO plastic surgeons and both wanted to be DO ( one had a 37 MCAT and 3.9 GPA!). So, yes, it is true, DO schools are "easier to get into" and some people do choose them for this reason, but the bottom line here is everybody wants to be a physician. There are many more examples of this all over SDN. Now, I would expect this out of the pre-allopathic board, but come on guys, be nice!!!! Support your future classmates and inspire them to explore the DO way.

I don't wanna "put your post down", but.....

why the hell would a pre-med talk about plastics??? a pre-med in the PRE-MED FORUM should have 1 and only 1 thing on thier mind and that is the PRE-MED PROCESS (AKA ~ Undergrad GPA, MCAT, ECs, money - yes money you need LOTS of it for the application cycle, and finally a freaking acceptance)
Unless you got this process done, don't talk about anything related to WHATS AFTER MEDICAL SCHOOL

The 2nd comment I have for you is, you said you knew 2 DOs with great stats who are now plastics, I am guessing if "these" DOs really exists, thier stats are fairly old (more than 10-15 years old), so whats your point? I know an IMG-MD (graduated from Baghdad - 1990) who is now a Plastic surg since 2004 (my brother in Law). Does this mean every IMG can make it into plastics ? hell no, maybe 1 out of 100 can, so I am assuming a DO has fairly better odds than 1%

 

[Doc11Hopeful]

OP, I feel you. Some people on SDN feel like they can get away with being nasty to others, but that's only because they're hiding behind their computers. I doubt they would say those things to someone's face. 😎

Couldn't have said it better myself! I think the vast majority of the people on here would be way too chicken **** to say the stuff they type to someone's face. It's easy to hide behind the computer.

 

[DiverDoc]

wow, after I just had a short stint over at the allopathic thread... I can honestly say that on average, there is much more hostility over there. If for nothing else, I want to be a DO so I can post in the more laid-back SDN forum 😀

I agree. Everybody chillax and have a margarita or something. Life is good.... 👍

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

There are a lot of egos in medicine

 

[froggiepremed]

I don't wanna "put your post down", but.....

why the hell would a pre-med talk about plastics??? a pre-med in the PRE-MED FORUM should have 1 and only 1 thing on thier mind and that is the PRE-MED PROCESS (AKA ~ Undergrad GPA, MCAT, ECs, money - yes money you need LOTS of it for the application cycle, and finally a freaking acceptance)
Unless you got this process done, don't talk about anything related to WHATS AFTER MEDICAL SCHOOL

The 2nd comment I have for you is, you said you knew 2 DOs with great stats who are now plastics, I am guessing if "these" DOs really exists, thier stats are fairly old (more than 10-15 years old), so whats your point? I know an IMG-MD (graduated from Baghdad - 1990) who is now a Plastic surg since 2004 (my brother in Law). Does this mean every IMG can make it into plastics ? hell no, maybe 1 out of 100 can, so I am assuming a DO has fairly better odds than 1%

First, the pre-med forum is for students trying to gain information they otherwise may have not known. Judging from your profile, you are still a pre-med yourself, so you clearly don't have all the answers yourself right? I applaud those who ask questions about their futures! It is a good thing to think ahead about what you may be interested, otherwise, why do pre-meds shadow doctors? Why do they spend time with different specialties? It is to find out what you like. Don't berate please - you are certainly in no position to!

Second, that persons experience about meeting 2 DO's in plastics is fine! Medicine is all about who you know and the connections you can make. If they want plastics, all the more to them for knowing some DO's who canhelp them when they get out. It seems like you are exactly who this forum was written 👎

 

[mandinca]

First, the pre-med forum is for students trying to gain information they otherwise may have not known. Judging from your profile, you are still a pre-med yourself, so you clearly don't have all the answers yourself right? I applaud those who ask questions about their futures! It is a good thing to think ahead about what you may be interested, otherwise, why do pre-meds shadow doctors? Why do they spend time with different specialties? It is to find out what you like. Don't berate please - you are certainly in no position to!

Second, that persons experience about meeting 2 DO's in plastics is fine! Medicine is all about who you know and the connections you can make. If they want plastics, all the more to them for knowing some DO's who canhelp them when they get out. It seems like you are exactly who this forum was written 👎

Hear, hear!!! My only experience so far is in nursing, where networking with other nurses, physicians, and other disciplines is very important.

Thanks, med students and residents for your posts. It really helps me maitain perspective!🙂

 

[Meatwad]

Telling someone that they route they choose may make their journey towards plastic surgery that much more difficult and unlikely is hardly what I define "bashing," as. Most of us were civil and informative.

 

[huckaaa]

Telling someone that they route they choose may make their journey towards plastic surgery that much more difficult and unlikely is hardly what I define "bashing," as. Most of us were civil and informative.

First, I wasn't just talking about that particular post, it was just an example. Second, I obviously didn't mean every single post was stupid/unnecessary/"bashing." And, if you would read a little closer, I didn't say that telling somebody that plastics would be hard is "bashing." That was the answer they were looking for, the truth. I said saying it is BS that somebody wants to be both a DO and a plastic is an over judgment.

 

[Doc11Hopeful]

Telling someone that they route they choose may make their journey towards plastic surgery that much more difficult and unlikely is hardly what I define "bashing," as. Most of us were civil and informative.

You are right Meatwad. There were a lot of well-informed responses giving honest advice about the OP's inquiry. However, there were a lot of posts bashing/laughing at the person just for asking the question.

 

[DadAndPreDOinMO]

I don't wanna "put your post down", but.....

why the hell would a pre-med talk about plastics??? a pre-med in the PRE-MED FORUM should have 1 and only 1 thing on thier mind and that is the PRE-MED PROCESS (AKA ~ Undergrad GPA, MCAT, ECs, money - yes money you need LOTS of it for the application cycle, and finally a freaking acceptance)
Unless you got this process done, don't talk about anything related to WHATS AFTER MEDICAL SCHOOL

The 2nd comment I have for you is, you said you knew 2 DOs with great stats who are now plastics, I am guessing if "these" DOs really exists, thier stats are fairly old (more than 10-15 years old), so whats your point? I know an IMG-MD (graduated from Baghdad - 1990) who is now a Plastic surg since 2004 (my brother in Law). Does this mean every IMG can make it into plastics ? hell no, maybe 1 out of 100 can, so I am assuming a DO has fairly better odds than 1%

Who are you to tell someone what the 1 and only 1 thing is that should be on their mind? I think everyone knows that they need to have a good GPA, mcat scores, EC's and LOR's. We know this. Everyone should look into different fields to see where their interests are. How can someone even know that they want to be a doctor if they haven't looked into what 'being a doctor' entails? While I can't see myself ever doing plastics, if someone else wants to good for them. I can tell you that I will have a foot up on many of my fellow classmates since I have had experience shadowing in many different specialties of medicine. And while I haven't decided what specialty I will pursue, I have an idea of some that I wont (Though I will be open-minded as medicine is very dynamic). Each to his own.

 

[Tanner82]

exhibit A http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5810292#post5810292

 

[runner898]

I am personally getting tired of the whole "MD vs. DO," "are my stats good enough for ____," and "Can a DO be a ____." I think a lot of people are speaking out of ignonance. May premeds think they know the whole realm of medicine and what it entails. I think that is our personality type - premeds, med students, and docs...mostly arrogant, stuck in their way. The last I checked, there weren't any premeds on any adcoms or residency programs to make the decisions anyway.

By our responses that we are giving to people in those threads, we are keeping the debate going, making DO's look less qualified. Do you think that once you get finished that the hospital truly cares whether you are a DO or MD after your name? I have several docs in my family, MD's and DO's, and the DO's haven't had a harder time in any way - residency or as an attending physician. My brother in law is the most recent graduate of residency and he is highly competitive. He had a lot of residency matches and then after residency, had numerous job offers. He even contracted out of two hospitals in two different states at one time (Ohio and Missouri).

In response to your original comment, huckaaa, I totally agree with you - I am sick of the animosity too. A lot of people have a lot of growing up to do before getting into the medical field. You may have the brains, but not the maturity if you are arguing over stupid stuff like this. In the real medical world (after med school), this crap doesn't come up because most docs are MATURE and respect their fellow docs, regardless of what type of degree they earned.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm so ashamed of myself... I just started trolling the md boards to see if this phenomenom is true

Best avatar on SDN ... no question (plus it complementss the name so well)!!! 👍

 

[EEL08]

I don't wanna "put your post down", but.....

why the hell would a pre-med talk about plastics??? a pre-med in the PRE-MED FORUM should have 1 and only 1 thing on thier mind and that is the PRE-MED PROCESS (AKA ~ Undergrad GPA, MCAT, ECs, money - yes money you need LOTS of it for the application cycle, and finally a freaking acceptance)
Unless you got this process done, don't talk about anything related to WHATS AFTER MEDICAL SCHOOL

Okay so in honor of this post which I strongly disagree with I give an interview scenario.

Interviewer: So, where do you see yourself in 20 years?
Interviewee: Honestly I haven't thought about it. I've been so consumed with the application process that I haven't considered what it might be like to be a physician, what areas of medicine might interest me the most or what populations I would be the most interested in serving.
Interviewer: Thank you for your time. Don't call us, we'll call you. Oh wait, on second thought, no we won't.

 

[Jpc984]

Okay so in honor of this post which I strongly disagree with I give an interview scenario.

Interviewer: So, where do you see yourself in 20 years?
Interviewee: Honestly I haven't thought about it. I've been so consumed with the application process that I haven't considered what it might be like to be a physician, what areas of medicine might interest me the most or what populations I would be the most interested in serving.
Interviewer: Thank you for your time. Don't call us, we'll call you. Oh wait, on second thought, no we won't.

I have no clue what type of of physician I want to be and got that question. Luckily, I prepared for it and said,

In 10 years I will likely be done with medical school and my residency (the interviewer specifically said "after medical school") I do not know what field I am interested in because I am keeping my mind and options open. I am leaning towards Internal medicine, but whatever field I choose, I hope to have a good rapport with my patients. Maybe, I have a family by that time.

I just told the truth!

 

[PlasticMan]

I don't wanna "put your post down", but.....

why the hell would a pre-med talk about plastics??? a pre-med in the PRE-MED FORUM should have 1 and only 1 thing on thier mind and that is the PRE-MED PROCESS (AKA ~ Undergrad GPA, MCAT, ECs, money - yes money you need LOTS of it for the application cycle, and finally a freaking acceptance)
Unless you got this process done, don't talk about anything related to WHATS AFTER MEDICAL SCHOOL

The 2nd comment I have for you is, you said you knew 2 DOs with great stats who are now plastics, I am guessing if "these" DOs really exists, thier stats are fairly old (more than 10-15 years old), so whats your point? I know an IMG-MD (graduated from Baghdad - 1990) who is now a Plastic surg since 2004 (my brother in Law). Does this mean every IMG can make it into plastics ? hell no, maybe 1 out of 100 can, so I am assuming a DO has fairly better odds than 1%

I disagree. Some of us knew what we wanted to do before applying to medical school. If you have a true motivational reason for wanting to go into a certain field, I think it can only help you in getting into medical school. I wrote about plastics on my application and spoke about it at my interview. My only reason for going to medical school was to become a plastic surgeon; I saw it simply as a means to an end. My interviewer admired that I had such motivation and direction for what I knew I wanted to do before I had even entered medical school and complimented me on that. If you mention you want to go into X, just because you think you might like X, then I wouldn't mention it. However, if you have a really good reason for example have diabetes and are set on going into endo b/c you want to help others such as yourself, then by all means mention it.

 

[EEL08]

I have no clue what type of of physician I want to be and got that question. Luckily, I prepared for it and said,

In 10 years I will likely be done with medical school and my residency (the interviewer specifically said "after medical school") I do not know what field I am interested in because I am keeping my mind and options open. I am leaning towards Internal medicine, but whatever field I choose, I hope to have a good rapport with my patients. Maybe, I have a family by that time.

I just told the truth!

That's different though. Just being all consumed with the process and thinking nothing of the future is not a good idea in my opinion. I'm not saying you have to know now what you want to do but to have never considered anything past being admitted is crazy.

 

[Tanner82]

Best avatar on SDN ... no question (plus it complementss the name so well)!!! 👍

Wow, that is a complement. there are definitly some great name/avatars on SDN. The guy that use to have Mr. T back in the day was awesome.

 

[Meatwad]

The guy that use to have Mr. T back in the day was awesome.

cyclohexanol?

 

[Tanner82]

cyclohexanol?

[SIZE=-1]touché[/SIZE]

 

[gasapple]

A lot of people have a lot of growing up to do before getting into the medical field. You may have the brains, but not the maturity if you are arguing over stupid stuff like this. In the real medical world (after med school), this crap doesn't come up because most docs are MATURE and respect their fellow docs, regardless of what type of degree they earned.

So very true...
👍

 

[Yourmother]

I suppose some critism is called for when someone is arrogant at least ignorant on a subject. For some reasons it bugs people when other are overly confident

ie-kids in high school who post things like---I'm going to be a cardiothoracic transplant surgeon and need to find out the best fellowship for this.

It kind of irritates my wife when people say their going to nursing school to be CRNAs when they don't realize the YEARS of critical care and ICU necessary.

Personally, I don't care.....

 

[Yourmother]

Overly specific agendas, especially at a mediccal school interview may be regarded as no more than youthful banter, which is indicative of someone preoccupied with image, vanity and the likes. It reveals a stubborn mind and unwillingness towards scientific curiosity which is a critical prerequisite for medicine.

Lets not bear around the bush. Everyone knows that plastics make bank, have the hotties, drive and car and get the chicks or at least on TV they do. I imagine that 99% of the kids out there who want to surgeons do it for this reason and less for for the cleft palates or burn victims.

Which is why I'm call B.S. on the encouragement you got from the "acomm" at your "interview".

 

[JaggerPlate]

Wow, that is a complement. there are definitly some great name/avatars on SDN. The guy that use to have Mr. T back in the day was awesome.

Yeah cyclohexanol is awesome and so is his Mr. T avatar!!


Have you seen Bob Saget's new(ish) HBO stand up special??

(sorry to get off topic)

 

[Beau Geste]

I get annoyed at a couple of repeating trends in the pre-osteo forum:

1. The MD put down - something like "I will be/am an MD and you should know that DOs are fake doctors and we have no respect for them. They'll never get into anything other than primary care."

2. The self-loathing DO - something like "don't go DO - you won't get ANY good residencies and NO ONE will respect you". Rare, but I've seen it.

3. The clueless pre-med - something like "what's a DO?" and they don't bother to read the FAQ or do a simple search.

4. The gunner pre-med - something like "will I be able to match into plastics as a DO?" knowing that yes, they can, but they have to work harder than God to get there. And they don't take advantage of the FAQ or search.

There are a couple more but I gotta get ready for work. I've seen the pre-meds on this forum stick together to support the DO profession more than put people down for the sake of putting people down. It's very unlikely that a pre-DO poster will look at someone's stats and ridicule them out of the blue.

 

[Jpc984]

I think there is so much animosity because the timing is very convenient... I'm sure a lot of MD applicants were just waitlisted in the first round of acceptances and are scared so they are inquiring about DO schools as a second choice. I am sure, the adcoms will read right through this.

 

[Tanner82]

Yeah cyclohexanol is awesome and so is his Mr. T avatar!!


Have you seen Bob Saget's new(ish) HBO stand up special??

(sorry to get off topic)

yeah I saw that last week... who would of thought that Danny Tanner was that dirty in real life? I saw him on Leno awhile ago and he said the most common thing people do when they see him in public is yell "Hey, you suck d*ck for coke"... you know from half-baked... I'm not a die hard saget fan, I just picked up my sdn at the spur of the moment to remain anonymous... but I have to admit, as of late he has grown on me...

 

[Shaniqua14]

I read this thread yesterday and felt compelled to write. It saddens me that the stress of applying to medical school causes some people to "put their claws out." I suppose they are able to segway their feelings of stress waiting for interviews/acceptances into taking the time to put other applicants down. Its just amusing though, that no matter how many mean comments are placed here-- the time spent is futile, it WON'T get you accepted to your top choice any quicker, and it WON'T increase your GPA or MCAT score. Just feelings get hurt.

This "gunner personality" and "intense competiveness" is what caused me to switch from applying to MD programs to DO programs. MD applicants are stereotyped to be super intense, and I just refuse to deal with it. BUT the fact that future DO students are writing ignorant and rude comments on this thread? Ugh. Please tell me where you are planning on attending next year, so I can make sure to choose my acceptance at another program.

 

[tony montana]

I read this thread yesterday and felt compelled to write. It saddens me that the stress of applying to medical school causes some people to "put their claws out." I suppose they are able to segway their feelings of stress waiting for interviews/acceptances into taking the time to put other applicants down. Its just amusing though, that no matter how many mean comments are placed here-- the time spent is futile, it WON'T get you accepted to your top choice any quicker, and it WON'T increase your GPA or MCAT score. Just feelings get hurt.

This "gunner personality" and "intense competiveness" is what caused me to switch from applying to MD programs to DO programs. MD applicants are stereotyped to be super intense, and I just refuse to deal with it. BUT the fact that future DO students are writing ignorant and rude comments on this thread? Ugh. Please tell me where you are planning on attending next year, so I can make sure to choose my acceptance at another program.

Rocky vista U