why use GPA?

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poloace

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so, i've come across a dilemma.... a crazy dilemma at that. we all go to undergrad, and then apply to med school. but, why really? is it to learn stuff?? i used to think that... but, now, i've come to believe that there should be no part of the application process that places any emphasis on our undergraduate gpas. sure, sure... there are those that will accuse me of being a **** for not having achieved a 4.0 in undergrad (and, it may be for this reason alone that i am posting).

here is my rational~
if the purpose of the MCAT is to truly provide a 'standardized' setting by which to evaluate each applicant, then why take into account our undergraduate GPAS, which (according to deans i have spoken with in the past) are not standardized?

we should do one of two things. either:
a- only look at mcat scores
b- only look at undergrad gpas, having first established a method by which to equate one schools rigors to another.

p
 
While undergrad gpas are somewhat relative, medical schools have a decent understanding of how difficult it is to do well at each school. If nothing else, I think gpa is a good indicator of motivation and time management. Doing well in this area just requires a lot of time and patience, and if you can manage a decent gpa plus volunteer, lead a club, play a sport, work, etc. all the better.
 
I sort of agree with you on principle, but I think that GPA and MCAT scores seem to show different things-- one shows consistent hard work, one shows how you perform under a 8-hour stress test from hell. In fact, a LOT of the stuff I learned in undergrad bio, physics, chem etc were not in the MCAT, so I dont think its exactly a fair comparison

so what if we only looked at undergrad GPAs? I think the biggest complaint here is some schools inflate their grades or some schools are easier than others.. another problem thats not even considered is huge variations of grades given by different professors ON THE SAME CAMPUS. in uw-madison, professors are fairly free as far as grades go (as long as they dont do something ridiculous like fail 50% of the students), while some who might teach the exact same class another semester might make tests with averages of 85% and not curve the scores. Either way, I think standardized GPAs would be way too subjective, but anyway... 🙂


-Cantal
 
I believe the theory is that GPA shows consistent, sustained effort while the MCAT adjusts for discrepancies between schools grading schemes/inflation/difficulty of classes/major.

So a high GPA and a high MCAT validate each other (the GPA is legit)

A high GPA and a low MCAT tends to invalidate the GPA or signal that the applicant may be a poor standardized test taker.

A low GPA and a high MCAT either means the major/school was difficult or the applicant has a tough time sustaining effort.

A low GPA and low MCAt validate each other (the GPA is legit).
 
As others have said, your GPA is a relfection of overall academic accomplishment. MCAT is dependent on one day. Have a bad day, don't do your best on the MCAT...should you be rejected from med schools?
 
There's always the possiblity of luck on the MCAT as well. As with all standardized tests, if you don't know something, you're going to guess. I guessed my way into a 1300+ on the SAT in the seventh grade. Its hard, if not impossible, to get a decent GPA based on luck alone. Most pre-req courses don't have multiple choice exams (none of mine do, atleast), so they require a sufficient comprehension of the material. GPAs reflect your solid comprehension of various subjects over three to four years, as opposed to your general comprehension or lucky streak in an eight hour period.

If anything, MCAT scores would be the first to go. But the reason they are used now is to account for the discrepencies between grading scales/grade inflation/quality of instruction that varies from school to school. Its not perfect, but its good enough.
 
To start, I am probably biased because I had a bad GPA and pretty good MCATs.

But it just seems to me that MCATs are objective while GPA interpretation is subjective based on: school grading policy, quality of classmates, professors grading schemes.

As for people who have good grades and bad MCATs, i doubt its a matter of bad preparation, because they have good grades that usually indicate a willingness to work. I think its a matter of being intimidated by a test, aka chocking under the pressure of a test. Which is really not that much pressure when you gotta figure that as a doctor you will be weighing information and making decisions with may more than a bad test score on the line.

I am not saying that GPA shouldn't be important, but really, how can it more informative about an applicant and his/her ability than the MCAT?
 
GPA is performance over time. The MCAT is a snapshot in time. Both provide different degrees to assess your intelligence. GPA can be indicative of your motivation in the long term, which would be relevant to how hard you may work in medica school, and the MCAT shows your aptitude to learn.
 
because we don't want all of our doctors to be brilliant but not hardworking/caring about things. who would you rather have as a doctor: someone who is really really bright but doesn't particularly care about working hard OR someone who is intelligent and has a lot of motivation/works hard. i'd take the second person any day.
 
here's my honest feeling:

i went to a solid undergrad... i didn't get a 4.0- i dont think anyone was even close. now, the problem is that my undergrad GPA isn't the best... but, competing with individuals at a master's program at columbia university, i've found that my gpa from my undergrad was not a good predictor of how i'd do here, at all. truth is, classes are so much easier here than in undergrad.... so much so that i've stopped going altogether because they bore me. i don't want to sound high and mighty... but, there are people here who did better in undergrad than i did, whose mcat scores are similar to mine, and are struggling in a grad program...

the truth is, i wish i hadn't gone to such a hard undergrad or been in such a hard major where professors don't think twice about handing out C's... which was completely opposite in the humanities. so, while my GPA may be lower, i feel that i would have aced my classes at another school...i'm sure a lot of people feel that way. so, is it unfair to penalize me because i couldn't hack a 4.0 at a good undergrad, while others in a less competitive environment easily came out of school with a 4.0???

all i'm saying is that if you're going to look at GPA- include a factor for recompense in order to equilibrate the different undergraduate institutions. from my experience, i know that law schools are very good about this, but med schools truly aren't... at least, they care much less about where you did your undergrad than i feel that they should.

just another rant about how much the application process blows.



p
 
Originally posted by poloace


all i'm saying is that if you're going to look at GPA- include a factor for recompense in order to equilibrate the different undergraduate institutions. from my experience, i know that law schools are very good about this, but med schools truly aren't... at least, they care much less about where you did your undergrad than i feel that they should.

just another rant about how much the application process blows.

p

it's funny b/c i just had this conversation with a good friend who is in law school. she brought up how law schools do this but med schools don't to the same extent.
 
I think I understand where Polo's comin' from. As a fellow Hen, I went to an elite undergrad 'cause I felt like I'd be getting a much better education, which I have. But when you suddenly realize that the B's you worked your tail off aren't as good as the A's that Toothless-Jim earned at High School State, not only are you pissed but you can't even believe what a bad comparison is being made.

Not to bag on my many ***** friends from high school, but these slackers go to unreputable schools and ace their classes with ease. Call me crazy, but I think that simply comparing GPAs as if theyre all equal of horse****. Now I know someone is gonna respond to my post by saying that adcoms do take your undergrad into consideration - dude please, adcoms care about numbers and when they do look at your school, its a t the end when it almost doesn't even matter anymore. 3.8 from HSS almost always gets in before 3.5 from Elite Ivy Tech.
 
By the way Polo, I complain about this stuff all of the time. It especially pisses me off when my girlfriend is like "don't worry, you'll get in. They know that our school is tough to do well at." Dumb broad.
 
But medical schools do take into account your undergrad institution. Schools knows that a 4.0 at cal state long beach isn't exactly a 4.0 at Berkeley. Some of the schools I visited were even familiar with LOR writers. They already knew which LOR writers from which schools really meant that an applicant was good. I don't think adcoms just look at the numbers without looking at the institution. But hey...what do I know I guess...I'm not on an adcom.
 
Oh please.

Do you really think that the adcoms at Wake Forest are going to remember the 2 applicants from Pomona College who submitted LOR's from Prof. Parfitt!?!

"Insert male cow smiley here" "Insert excrement smiley here"

Besides, I'm not even comparing a 4.0 from Berkeley and a 4.0 from Long Beach. Any d!ckless 8 year old can judge that one. I was comparing the equivalent of a 3.8 from Long Beach and a 3.5 from Berkeley. What I'm saying is that in most cases, the Beacher wil be favored over the Caler, which would be a *****ic choice in my view. A 3.5 at any elite school is tough (even though I'm sure a few smart asses will argue otherwise) but a 3.8 at High School State University of Westeastern Dixie is easy as balls.
 
hmmmm, someone sounds bitter.

Have you ever considered the opposite situation. What about a student who goes to a relatively unkown school, but the classes are much harder than the typical state school. Not only does he/she have to work their a$$ off for the grades, but then they don't even get recognized for the accomplishment. My intro biology professor was a Phd from Harvard and very respected in her field, and we went into more depth than (but used the same book as) a comensurate class my friend took at well known pre-med school. I understand your frustration, but in order for med schools to fully take into account the difficulty of undergrad, they need to be able to know exactly where each school fits in the difficulty level for each major. That is impossible to do.
 
What formula do law schools use that undergrad. into account more fairly?
 
What about a student who goes to a relatively unkown school, but the classes are much harder than the typical state school


Even if the classes are really hard because you have an asskicking professor, the grades are still graded on a curve. So the competition isn't as intense because you get a mix of some really smart people and some average people and some dumb people. The average and dumb people are minimized at bigger name schools, and you are in a class competing with 300 people who all got 1400 on theis SATs.

Hence, even if the class is harder, its easier to get the A.
 
Originally posted by Quagmire, M.D.
Oh please.

Do you really think that the adcoms at Wake Forest are going to remember the 2 applicants from Pomona College who submitted LOR's from Prof. Parfitt!?!

Actually a lot of schools have "regional committees." Those regional committees review files, LORs, gpas, EC's from set regions of the country. Being that Cali turns out so many premeds I'd imagine that cali gets their own regional committee at some schools. The people on these committees are actually very familiar with the schools in their region down to the LOR writers. They usually submit lengthy reviews to the adcoms about an aplicant. So yes, some schools probably know Prof Parfitt depending on how many times he's written LORs in the past and the type of students he's written LORs for.

Originally posted by Quagmire, M.D.

Besides, I'm not even comparing a 4.0 from Berkeley and a 4.0 from Long Beach. Any d!ckless 8 year old can judge that one. I was comparing the equivalent of a 3.8 from Long Beach and a 3.5 from Berkeley. What I'm saying is that in most cases, the Beacher wil be favored over the Caler, which would be a *****ic choice in my view. A 3.5 at any elite school is tough (even though I'm sure a few smart asses will argue otherwise) but a 3.8 at High School State University of Westeastern Dixie is easy as balls.

I still diasagree here. If it is obvious to you and I that a 3.5 from cal is better than a 3.8 from cal state long beach, then why do you think it wouldn't be obvious to adcom members? Adcoms aren't stupid. Some schools even have factors they multiply one's gpa by to adjust for the caliber of the student's institution. Berkeley would most likely be multiplied by a much higher factor than csulb.
 
quag... you got stuck with parbitch? oh man... those days were hellacious on me. she told us a story about how she was driving on mount baldy with her husband and their car ran out of gas... trying to explain gibbs free energy and catalysts... told us how the speed they had gained from going down the hill far enough propelled them over that last hump and brought them down to a gas station... geez- i just wanted to pee on her.

you know who is great though??? is dr. daniel martinez. he was hard on me too, but- he's actually a smart guy who cares about your education, unlike parbitch. i can't believe she's still teaching... i thought we made enough of a fuss our year about here that DQ was taking steps to get her lardass out of there.

p
 
Stanford adcom breaks undergrad schools into, I think, three tiers. Each tier gets a factor by which their applicants' GPAs are multiplied. I don't know what info they used to divide the tiers nor whether any other med schools do this.
 
Originally posted by calipremed
Stanford adcom breaks undergrad schools into, I think, three tiers. Each tier gets a factor by which their applicants' GPAs are multiplied. I don't know what info they used to divide the tiers nor whether any other med schools do this.

UCLA SOM does this as well.
 
Okay, after reading all the bitter ranting that has been posted on this thread, I feel the need to put in my two cents.

When you're choosing between a state school and an Ivy league school, you know damn well that while you MAY (and I sincerely stress the MAY) get a better, more in depth, personal education at the Ivy, the grading will (perhaps!! ex/Harvard) be tougher. Knowing this, and knowing that you're pre-med, you can certainly make the choice not to go to the Ivy if you think that you can't hack it. If you go to a top tier school and do very well, you have a much, much better shot at getting into the top med schools than someone with equivalent stats from a state school. However, if you don't do as well, then you're in the sludge pool with the rest of us, and you'll just have to deal with being treated on par with state school applicants.

What i've just said goes for picking majors as well - i don't feel the lest bit sorry for an MIT astrophysics major complaining that his low GPA should be looked at differently. Come on people, if you want to get into med school, be reasonable - if you can't get at least a 3.5 in a major, choose a different one!! I know, we should all study what we really like and challenge oursleves.... that's a lovely thought, but if medical school is your goal, then use your common sense and don't choose a school and major that will leave you begging for a 2.0!!🙄 🙄

That being said, I'd like to reply to those of you bashing state schools - I am very insulted for all of the "High School College" comments out there. I'm in the honors program at Rutgers, and my science classes were damn hard. And you know what? Even though I'm in the top 5% of my class, it doesn't mean diddly squat compared to the overachievers at the Ivys. But i'm not bitching about that - I KNEW WHAT I WAS GETTING MYSELF INTO when I chose to take the scholarship money and come here. And guess what? You knew what you were getting yourselves into too!! So please, quit complaining and deal with the reprecussions of your choices like the rest of us.

I guess that was more like a dollar than two cents. 😀

- Zina
 
Originally posted by brownman24
Even if the classes are really hard because you have an asskicking professor, the grades are still graded on a curve. So the competition isn't as intense because you get a mix of some really smart people and some average people and some dumb people. The average and dumb people are minimized at bigger name schools, and you are in a class competing with 300 people who all got 1400 on theis SATs.

Hence, even if the class is harder, its easier to get the A.

Why do you assume that all schools are graded on a curve? Mine sure isn't. Yeah, it's easier to get a C because they can't fail everybody. But it's not any easier to get an A, that's for sure. If they don't think anybody in the class deserves an A, then NOBODY GETS ONE.

PLUS, there are NO SCHOOLS that don't have at least a few outstanding students, who could be a top student at a top school as well. Yeah, there may be just one or two top students instead of all top students, but those top students are typically just as good, imho. And what happens is that those two or three top students end up setting the standard for eachother...
 
Right on Quideam!

I have to agree with what you're saying.

Basically I went to a private liberal arts university where chemistry and physics are combined into one department and (via crappy textbooks, homework sets that even the enlightened post-baccs can't do, and notes that don't do squat for the tests) many students get weeded out ("mostly C's in 24 out of 38 core pre-med hours") without flinching. Why would these profs care? If a student can't teach himself or herself the material to the point that the or she thinks exactly like the professor, then why should he or she have what it takes to be an MD?

For all the victims of this machine who don't have a 3.5 but have say a 3.3-3.45, I don't think the tough private school reputation is working. In fact, the Bio and Chem-Physics departments are relying on transfer students who probably transferred good grades in from public schools during their junior year. In short, only one transfer has got in b/c of good grades and very good MCAT. As for the lost generation of matriculants, I am the very last one. And I wish, with one exception, I had attended a public school.

This is where I start to agree with Quideam. I've taken all 16 hours of chemistry at a state school - they don't beat around the bush - they teach all the essentials in great detail - if there is a stellar class with a lot of A's and B's then the professors congratulate them and give a lot of A's and B's. I don't see why anyone who is DELUSIONAL enough to attend a private school where the teachers don't give a flip should expect a joyride to medical school on the "it was more challenging" fable. People from the public schools do about the same or better on the MCAT than people from my school - where only one or two exceptional science students get through the machine in one piece. This is why I use the term "fable."

And yet people throw out terms like "High School College" in hopes of justifying themselves. I highly recommend considering Quideam's point of realizing what you as an individual have got yourself into.

And my one exception is this. I attended a "liberal arts" college. The science major machine broke me down to a 3.2 something by the end of my sophomore year. It seemed like the end - I could give up pre-med. But no!, again verifying Quideam, I could play to my strengths and be a survivor. So I changed to classics major, made straight A's, and am graduating with at least a 3.51. Now I will go to that public school and retake all my sciences and see if I can hack the MCAT. But it wouldn't be possible if not for that humanities major. (If you're thinking classics majors have an easier time and bad rep for having no labs, etc. then click on this link before complanin --> http://www.princetonreview.com/coll....asp?majorID=64)

Quideam is so right it's scary. It's imbecilic to throw out terms like "High School College" when science profs at public universities can do at least one thing correctly - their jobs as instructors. And when med-schools ask about my easier bad-rep major I can say I played on to my strengths at a "liberal arts" college. Or there's always the "I had this one last chance to pursue a major interest before the main interest of medicine."

This has taught a couple of lessons for me.

1) Don't go bashing public schools because your private university has a GPA grudge against you. At least in the South there are exceptionally smart and poor people who in high school can't get the time of day for scholarships at Vandy, Emory, or even lesser-known private liberal arts colleges Public schools are their only outlet. When you bash public schools you are more than likely (in potential) attacking the socioeconomically "less preferred" rather than

2) Making the best of a bad situation. I didn't choose to have a 3.2. I chose to have a 3.5 and I am never taking another science class at a liberal arts college again, ever.

Quideam has already said both of these things. I am reinforcing them.
 
I'm just not buying the 'doesn't test well' argument for those with the low MCAT/ high GPA combination. Surely you couldn't have done crappy on every test as an undergrad and earned this GPA.

I think most UG exams favor those who have both the time and ability to learn every freaking detail of every thing. People who work, play sports, and are involved in campus activities give up some of this time by chioce (and others have no choice...working) and don't have the time learn the average mass of a dung pile made by a dung beetle.

Ultimately the day comes where it really matters if you can solve problems and know the 'big picture' things of bio, chem, and physics or can't solve probs but do know how much dung beetle crap weighs. People don't just show looking to take the nursing exam, wander into the wrong room, and drop a 35 on MCAT.

Yes, standardized testing is biased ... toward smart people.
 
I would say standardized tests are biased towards the wealthy (not necessarily the intelligent). If you have the money to drop ~$1500 for Kaplan/PR, forgo a summer job to study full time or even hire a private tutor (not unheard of) then you'll probably do better on the MCAT than someone who isn't as privileged.
 
Originally posted by erininseattle
I would say standardized tests are biased towards the wealthy (not necessarily the intelligent). If you have the money to drop ~$1500 for Kaplan/PR, forgo a summer job to study full time or even hire a private tutor (not unheard of) then you'll probably do better on the MCAT than someone who isn't as privileged.

Go erininseatlle!! It's a whole different world when you (or your parents) have $1500+ to drop on test prep in addition to the already prohibitive costs of medical school applications. Although doing it on your own is possible, it's much easier with help (and without having a job to get in the way)! Did you read that article on the URM thread about how people "in the advantage" are unable groomed in such a way that they can't see their own advantaged status?? It reminds me how much I love it when wealthy people swear that they have no advantage in the application process. .. . . HAH!!

Anyhoo, more to the subject, I think it's imperitive that there be more than one way to determine academic preparedness for medical school. Although the MCAT and GPA might not be perfect indicators, they together are better than either one on its own.
 
Originally posted by ironey
Go erininseatlle!! It's a whole different world when you (or your parents) have $1500+ to drop on test prep in addition to the already prohibitive costs of medical school applications. Although doing it on your own is possible, it's much easier with help (and without having a job to get in the way)! Did you read that article on the URM thread about how people "in the advantage" are unable groomed in such a way that they can't see their own advantaged status?? It reminds me how much I love it when wealthy people swear that they have no advantage in the application process. .. . . HAH!!

Anyhoo, more to the subject, I think it's imperitive that there be more than one way to determine academic preparedness for medical school. Although the MCAT and GPA might not be perfect indicators, they together are better than either one on its own.

BTW I'm poor as hell and wouldn't ever think about Kaplan, TPR, or a tutor. Studies have shown 'review courses' have little if any benefit on testing performance. The $1500 check you sign (or your parents) is almost an admission that you lack the self-discipline and motivation to study well.

A combination of GPA and MCAT scores have been shown to be the best predictor of success in medical school. MCAT scores were a very close second and GPA third.
 
Hey Corn_Husker, I'm poor as anything too but I had to do the Kaplan thing as much as I hated it. Mostly for the practice tests and the timed sessions. I tried to do almost everything in their library until I realized some of the tests were way over the top.

But I agree that the work/earn money/study etc thing is a huge drag and it would burn my buttons when I saw UGrads dingling around with their cells phones, expensive snacks and general "someone else is paying my bills" attitude. To be honest, I paid my way from 18 and was a Classics major at an Ivy and let me add to the poster above, being a Latin major is nothng to sneeze at. We would have about 1000 pages of original language a week to grind thru, plus Greek, plus our other regular classes. And just try a semester of translating excruciating English authors into equally excruciating Latin or Greek authors. It was like the Organic II of the Latin and Greek Department.
 
I'm a financially independent applicant as well. Paying $1500 for a review course is not and indicator of lack of self-discipline or motivation. If you can hold a full time job, it takes discipline to raise that money and motivation to finish your work day off with hours of studying instead of a cocktail.

Yes, it has been proven that tests like the SAT are biased towards the wealthy based on vocabulary, reading comp topics, etc. The same can't really be argued about the MCAT. And just b/c there is a market for test prep courses, doesn't mean the test is biased towards the "more advantaged." So if you really feel like that is what is holding you back, get a job. You are an adult now.
 
I'm a financially independent applicant as well. Paying $1500 for a review course is not and indicator of lack of self-discipline or motivation. If you can hold a full time job, it takes discipline to raise that money and motivation to finish your work day off with hours of studying instead of a cocktail.

If you have the motivation and self-discipline to study after a full day of work and then I would hope you are taking Kaplan for the subject books (which can be easily picked up on ebay for $50-100) and simulated test conditions (which you can accomplish with a stop watch). My general expereince is that those I have known have taken Kaplan either did it to 'calm nerves' and feel like they have an advantage or readily admitted they just weren't that good about sitting down and studying.
 
Hmmm...

You know, the main problem is that GPA, for med school, is just used as an honor, not as a scale of how much you learned. It can't because as one person deftly put it, there is HUGE variation between individual professors, even at non "grade-inflated" schools (like Hopkins or MIT). So I ended up taking a yearlong Honors Calc class, struggled heavily, got my B, and was happy because I learned tremendously (hurts even though I learned a lot). The skills picked up in the class helped me with statistics -- stats was a breeze after that. I've also had a handful of classes where I learned almost nothing, and got an A (helps but learned very little). My work was probably in excess of what I had to put in. I also took classes where I learned a lot, worked very very hard, and did well (helps and learned lots -- what GPA SHOULD mean).

My point in all of this is to say that if one were particularly driven, they could "create their own major", find professors which are very popular, know that such popularity is directly proportional to the amount of grade inflation in the class, and get a stellar high GPA. Unfortunately, they might in fact have learned a lot less than the engineer who got a 2.9 GPA. So, in other words, they might attend a remarkable med school, think they are superbly intelligent, and not really be all that good.

I think GPA should matter -- i.e. a 3.3 or higher shows you have been at the very least, working hard, and if you can do well on an MCAT exam, then you also have the raw skills needed to do the first two years of med school. What I don't like is the idea that 3.7+ should indicate the above. I think getting a 3.7 indicates one has worked hard, and has good skill in finding professors who will give a lot of high grades. My point of this rant is to say that I think the GPA should be used as a benchmark for minimal skill at a course of study (not as a "weed out" -- i.e. making getting in really difficult for someone who has a 3.3, for example. )

Someone with a 3.3 or higher can hack med school, in other words, and beyond that the GPA should not be a factor in admissions.
 
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