General Admissions & OTCAS Why you should nearly always opt against an OTD

[occupationalguy]

This topic is constantly discussed here, but as an entry level clinician I feel I should share my opinions. I think the OTD is a bad idea, and I have yet to meet any clinician who thinks it's a good idea. Here are my reasons:

• Salary: You will NOT earn more for having an OTD as a clinician. In fact most of your management will have a BA's.
• Debt: When you factor in time you could be working, and the extra tuition and room and board cost, you've invested a LOTof money into a degree you simply do not require to practice. I've met many people with a "doctorate" who have over 100k in student loans. An OT salary for an entry level clinician will likely hover around the 65k mark, and for a median salary of 70-80k; carrying that debt load with a house, a family, etc is a LOT of debt.
• Management: My CI was the director of rehab; this hospital is internationally renown. He has a BS, and informed me that he couldn't comprehend the need for a management oriented degree as an entry level clinician. He said it would have zero bearing on his decision to hire. The degree simply doesn't have street cred in our field imho.
  
  

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[OTledo]

Why put "quotes" around "doctorate" though, like it's not a credible degree? You may not think OTD is right for you, but there are so many of us working so hard to pursue that "degree". and it's a step above a masters- I'm sure we won't be twiddling our thumbs wasting money that extra year; instead of learning skills valuable to the profession. And if that extra year makes me better prepared for entry-level practice, I think that's money well-spent!

As far as cost goes, the masters program I was considering is actually 11k more than both OTD programs I was accepted to, so it's not really accurate to assume you'll be saving money by opting out of an OTD all the time. Although I'm sure it's often the case.

 

[occupationalguy]

Why put "quotes" around "doctorate" though, like it's not a credible degree? You may not think OTD is right for you, but there are so many of us working so hard to pursue that "degree". and it's a step above a masters- I'm sure we won't be twiddling our thumbs wasting money that extra year; instead of learning skills valuable to the profession. And if that extra year makes me better prepared for entry-level practice, I think that's money well-spent!

As far as cost goes, the masters program I was considering is actually 11k more than both OTD programs I was accepted to, so it's not really accurate to assume you'll be saving money by opting out of an OTD all the time. Although I'm sure it's often the case.

Apologies for sounding rude - not my intention. The quotes are indicative of the fact that I do not consider an additional half year/year of education a real doctorate. A doctorate is a PhD/or MD degree. No one will ever refer to an OTD as a "doctor" nor will it open any strong pathways to academia.

You think it's money well spent? I personally do not. I think it's degree inflation which is present in many fields. With MOUNTING student loan debt and decreasing reimbursement for OTs why on earth are we moving towards a clinical doctorate?

 

[OTledo]

The quotes are indicative of the fact that I do not consider an additional half year/year of education a real doctorate. A doctorate is a PhD/or MD degree. No one will ever refer to an OTD as a "doctor" nor will it open any strong pathways to academia.

You think it's money well spent? I personally do not. I think it's degree inflation which is present in many fields. With MOUNTING student loan debt and decreasing reimbursement for OTs why on earth are we moving towards a clinical doctorate?

Like I said, of the 3 schools I considered (all public) the MS was the most expensive. Why wouldn't I choose the cheaper one?

Alsooooo you can literally get a doctorate in almost anything. DSW for social work, for example, or a doctorate in education. People do it to advance their knowledge... not waste money. You're right, it's not necessary for entry-level practice, but just as you said it's only another half year/year. And it's spent doing a research thesis, definitely not a waste of money or time in my opinion.

 

[Sawyer95]

Apologies for sounding rude - not my intention. The quotes are indicative of the fact that I do not consider an additional half year/year of education a real doctorate. A doctorate is a PhD/or MD degree. No one will ever refer to an OTD as a "doctor" nor will it open any strong pathways to academia.

You think it's money well spent? I personally do not. I think it's degree inflation which is present in many fields. With MOUNTING student loan debt and decreasing reimbursement for OTs why on earth are we moving towards a clinical doctorate?

I think that the inflation is only going to continue and choosing to spend less money on a degree that may or may not be "enough" (BS or MSOT) later on down the line is a risk you have taken, just as pursuing an OTD is a risk that others have elected. I expect to be in the field for at least 40 years and there is really no way to project what will have been the best choice (MSOT vs. OTD). For those choosing to pursue an OTD, it is not necessarily because we anticipate being paid more simply because we have that degree. Of course, experience is the most indicative factor in finding a job and moving "up the ladder". But I think it is irresponsible to say that an OTD + 10-15 years of experience could not possibly be an asset 20 years from now-- there is no way to know.

 

[occupationalguy]

I think that the inflation is only going to continue and choosing to spend less money on a degree that may or may not be "enough" (BS or MSOT) later on down the line is a risk you have taken, just as pursuing an OTD is a risk that others have elected. I expect to be in the field for at least 40 years and there is really no way to project what will have been the best choice (MSOT vs. OTD). For those choosing to pursue an OTD, it is not necessarily because we anticipate being paid more simply because we have that degree. Of course, experience is the most indicative factor in finding a job and moving "up the ladder". But I think it is irresponsible to say that an OTD + 10-15 years of experience could not possibly be an asset 20 years from now-- there is no way to know.

The thing is, we can see, right now: No one with an OTD is paid more for having one. Same with a masters vs clinicians with bachelors. In fact, our real earnings are slipping, not gaining.

 

[Bokonomy]

The thing is, we can see, right now: No one with an OTD is paid more for having one. Same with a masters vs clinicians with bachelors. In fact, our real earnings are slipping, not gaining.

Not true. In schools (at least in my state), OTs make more money based on their education level. I don't know if there are other exceptions, but this is one area.

 

[beestrng]

If it makes u happy get it.

 

[OT2Be17]

Not to mention it's kind of hard to slip in for a masters now. In my state there really aren't any masters programs anymore, and some programs I applied to as a masters program and they decided my class would be the first year of doctorates. Maybe it's unfortunate but at this point if you want to be an OT, it's becoming more common for that to be all you can get (unless you want to pay double and go out of state to get a masters which is still a lot of money being out of state).

 

[occupationalguy]

Find Salary stats on entry level OTDs vs MAs - fact is maybe in schools thats the case, but certainly not in any other setting.
PS - school salaries are the lowest in any other setting. If you like it, go for it imho.

 

[OTmomma]

I don't know if this is as an accurate comparison or not, but I liken the OTD to a masters degree in fields that only require a bachelors degree for entry level work.

For example, you can get a bachelors in business and find a job out of college easily enough, but an MBA gives you the ability to specialize in a certain area or prime you for management/career advancement. Both degrees can be justified, and both allow you to work- and like with the MOT, someone with a bachelors in business might get a management position simply from experience/being the right fit. The MBA (OTD equivalent in this example) doesn't guarantee stature, but might help in certain instances. Or it might not.

This is why I'm glad AOTA decided against requiring entry-level OTDs for the time being; I think the student should have the ability to choose which degree they want according to their career goals/life circumstances. What's disheartening is the move that some schools are making to only offering the entry-level OTD. While I'm sure many of them are just trying to get ahead of the game, it's hard not to take a cynical stance when looking at a private institution - you have to wonder what their motivations are. I can understand why someone would want to advance their knowledge and obtain a post-professional OTD, but the entry-level option continues to puzzle me.

Occupational Guy, are you as equally against the OTD for practicing OTs? Or are you mostly lamenting over the fact that prospective students are choosing entry level OTD programs over comparable masters programs?

 

[HopingAndWaitingOT]

One aspect to this discussion that some might not be thinking of is the extra burden an OTD can place on an eager 23 year old -- one who might have different interests down the line.

I'm a career switcher, and in my first round of college I entered a combined BA History/MAT Social Studies Secondary Education program at 20 because I *knew* I wanted to be a teacher, loved all of my exposure to teaching, and loved history/Social Studies the most out of any subject.

Fast forward to 29, and I spent the majority of my teaching career teaching English and ESL - even when teaching "Social Studies" classes. My specialized "secondary social studies" education was barely connected to what my specialties in practice actually were (technology, writing, study skills). This disparity didn't hinder my career, but it made me feel like I didn't get full value for my educational dollar. And obviously, for a host of reasons I won't get into here, I decided I wanted to switch my entire profession. I love the experience and skills I gained teaching - but that's a less-than-optimal investment in the long run.

I applied (and was just accepted) to one OTD program because just saying the D word makes me want to open up my wallet. However, that's an emotional response for me. Knowing what I do now there's no way I'd make that commitment before putting my boots on the ground for a while. That way, future CE and post-professional classes will be targeted and fully applicable to the direction my career actually heads, versus where I think it might as an outsider.

Whenever I tell myself that the cost is "only" 25k and one semester more than the MSOT acceptance I took, I know I probably won't get the maximum professional and educational benefit from that investment - let alone the lack of future economic benefit. I'd rather take future classes online and while working. It gives me meaningful practice to connect theory/research to, comes while I earn an income and can be used as a tax deduction (with limits).

Some people are great at knowing just what they will want and love forever with little more than the tangential experience of shadowing or working with/near OTs... but I'd venture more than a few might find themselves thinking the same things I did in my first career somewhere down the line. That's why I think it's great that it's currently a choice - but I'd caution others to think with more than just emotion and hope.

 

[avocadodreams]

Pretty sure this user is the same as MOT4ME who I think got kicked off SDN last year. He's got a serious chip on his shoulder and spends an embarrasing amount of time talking down on anyone who is pursuing an OTD and kind of talking down on OT in general. I personally wouldn't listen to a thing this bitter "OT" says.

 

[OThopeful97]

Pretty sure this user is the same as MOT4ME who I think got kicked off SDN last year. He's got a serious chip on his shoulder and spends an embarrasing amount of time talking down on anyone who is pursuing an OTD and kind of talking down on OT in general. I personally wouldn't listen to a thing this bitter "OT" says.

Hm I don't know who that other user is but I would have to disagree with you. Part of the reason why I like this forum is that you get to hear different perspectives on issues even if it's not what you want to hear. I think he's made some valid points and is not being disrespectful in any way. I find all of this information helpful and in the end, it's your decision! I also think the best thing would be to talk to the OTs you've shadowed!

 

[YogaOT]

It's nice to hear these differing opinions. I've been accepted to a few programs and have very specific criteria I was looking for in programs. And I applied only to MOT/MSOT programs (as opposed to OTD) for a few reasons:

1. The price. I'm curious which OTD program you applied to that was cheaper than the Master's programs. I didn't find any that fit that description in my searching. Though perhaps you're including an offer of funding in that figure? For me, the cost would have been the cost of another full year - so between an extra $16,000 and $40,000 for tuition alone (then figure in cost of living).

2. End salary. My own investigations regarding salary align with occupationalguy's assessment. Every OT I've met has told me to get the Master's - in part because there is (according to the data) no difference in salary between an OTD and a Master's. You may view this as cynicism or conspiratorial, but the reality is, schools are businesses that seek to make money (source: I've worked for and taught at 2 different universities over the past 7 years). Of course they would support the move towards a required OTD, and quickly. As would OT departments, since this provides greater legitimacy to their work and potentially provides greater job security, as the field becomes more "recognized." I'm less familiar with the motives and financial entanglements of the AOTA, but the move would also stand to benefit the organization in some way - not necessarily anything sinister, but as anyone in education or government can tell you, programs always seek growth and expansion to make themselves more relevant and be established as an indispensable necessity. This is one way of continuing that work.

4. I see very little difference between the curriculum for OTD and MOT. Take a look at WashU's curriculum for the two, side by side. They take the exact same courses for two years. Then, for the OTD, in your 3rd year, you have 1-2 electives, a little more fieldwork, and a thesis. The thesis is basically research that you could be doing in the field anyways, without university backing. And obviously, you'd be in the field already with your MOT, so the extra fieldwork seems superfluous. Why spend money for things you could be doing on your own anyways? Cost vs. rewards seems too low for this last year.

5. You're probably still going to need a PhD to teach or work in a university OT department. Or at least, that would be highly preferred. If you look at the high-ranking OT programs, nearly everyone has a PhD. And I've looked at job calls for OT teaching positions and they all require PhDs - the ones I've seen. I'm sure that's not true across the board. But if you're serious about it, you will likely need a PhD.

Side note: As for the "doctorate" in quotes comment. My sister is a DPT, some of my best friends are OTs, DSWs, MDs, PsyDs, and EdDs, and I'm finishing up my PhD - we've had discussions about this. There simply is no comparison between a DPT and OTD on the one hand, and an MD, EdD, PhD, or other kinds of doctorates on the other. The amount of time, work, learning, etc. is just not the same. And I think that's why some people scoff at calling it a doctorate (they say the same for DPT, DSW, etc.). That being said, I think it just comes down to semantics. What is a "doctorate" anyways? And who cares? Why does it matter? It connotes a certain level of expertise, and the standard for classifying those levels varies based on field anyways.

Those are just my thoughts. I have done a lot of research and have a lot of university experience, but I don't personally have any experience seeking jobs in OT or working as an OT. So my perspective is, in that respect, narrow. But I honestly don't see much that makes getting the OTD worth it.

 

[Bokonomy]

One aspect to this discussion that some might not be thinking of is the extra burden an OTD can place on an eager 23 year old -- one who might have different interests down the line.

I'm a career switcher, and in my first round of college I entered a combined BA History/MAT Social Studies Secondary Education program at 20 because I *knew* I wanted to be a teacher, loved all of my exposure to teaching, and loved history/Social Studies the most out of any subject.

Fast forward to 29, and I spent the majority of my teaching career teaching English and ESL - even when teaching "Social Studies" classes. My specialized "secondary social studies" education was barely connected to what my specialties in practice actually were (technology, writing, study skills). This disparity didn't hinder my career, but it made me feel like I didn't get full value for my educational dollar. And obviously, for a host of reasons I won't get into here, I decided I wanted to switch my entire profession. I love the experience and skills I gained teaching - but that's a less-than-optimal investment in the long run.

I applied (and was just accepted) to one OTD program because just saying the D word makes me want to open up my wallet. However, that's an emotional response for me. Knowing what I do now there's no way I'd make that commitment before putting my boots on the ground for a while. That way, future CE and post-professional classes will be targeted and fully applicable to the direction my career actually heads, versus where I think it might as an outsider.

Whenever I tell myself that the cost is "only" 25k and one semester more than the MSOT acceptance I took, I know I probably won't get the maximum professional and educational benefit from that investment - let alone the lack of future economic benefit. I'd rather take future classes online and while working. It gives me meaningful practice to connect theory/research to, comes while I earn an income and can be used as a tax deduction (with limits).

Some people are great at knowing just what they will want and love forever with little more than the tangential experience of shadowing or working with/near OTs... but I'd venture more than a few might find themselves thinking the same things I did in my first career somewhere down the line. That's why I think it's great that it's currently a choice - but I'd caution others to think with more than just emotion and hope.

I'm in an OTD program, and that is certainly a confusing part of this all. I originally was set on SI research, but now I think I want to develop and do research on programs that increase social participation in children with autism. And I'm still only in my first year! So unless you want to be clinical faculty and want a bit of a boost over others (since OTDs must be trained by PhDs/EdDs/etc. and other OTDs), then master's is better for now.

Personally, if I wasn't going to a program with such great faculty giving us different options for residency and instead was going to a new program, I would have the Master's route.

 

[OT510]

It's nice to hear these differing opinions. I've been accepted to a few programs and have very specific criteria I was looking for in programs. And I applied only to MOT/MSOT programs (as opposed to OTD) for a few reasons:

1. The price. I'm curious which OTD program you applied to that was cheaper than the Master's programs. I didn't find any that fit that description in my searching. Though perhaps you're including an offer of funding in that figure? For me, the cost would have been the cost of another full year - so between an extra $16,000 and $40,000 for tuition alone (then figure in cost of living).

2. End salary. My own investigations regarding salary align with occupationalguy's assessment. Every OT I've met has told me to get the Master's - in part because there is (according to the data) no difference in salary between an OTD and a Master's. You may view this as cynicism or conspiratorial, but the reality is, schools are businesses that seek to make money (source: I've worked for and taught at 2 different universities over the past 7 years). Of course they would support the move towards a required OTD, and quickly. As would OT departments, since this provides greater legitimacy to their work and potentially provides greater job security, as the field becomes more "recognized." I'm less familiar with the motives and financial entanglements of the AOTA, but the move would also stand to benefit the organization in some way - not necessarily anything sinister, but as anyone in education or government can tell you, programs always seek growth and expansion to make themselves more relevant and be established as an indispensable necessity. This is one way of continuing that work.

4. I see very little difference between the curriculum for OTD and MOT. Take a look at WashU's curriculum for the two, side by side. They take the exact same courses for two years. Then, for the OTD, in your 3rd year, you have 1-2 electives, a little more fieldwork, and a thesis. The thesis is basically research that you could be doing in the field anyways, without university backing. And obviously, you'd be in the field already with your MOT, so the extra fieldwork seems superfluous. Why spend money for things you could be doing on your own anyways? Cost vs. rewards seems too low for this last year.

5. You're probably still going to need a PhD to teach or work in a university OT department. Or at least, that would be highly preferred. If you look at the high-ranking OT programs, nearly everyone has a PhD. And I've looked at job calls for OT teaching positions and they all require PhDs - the ones I've seen. I'm sure that's not true across the board. But if you're serious about it, you will likely need a PhD.

Side note: As for the "doctorate" in quotes comment. My sister is a DPT, some of my best friends are OTs, DSWs, MDs, PsyDs, and EdDs, and I'm finishing up my PhD - we've had discussions about this. There simply is no comparison between a DPT and OTD on the one hand, and an MD, EdD, PhD, or other kinds of doctorates on the other. The amount of time, work, learning, etc. is just not the same. And I think that's why some people scoff at calling it a doctorate (they say the same for DPT, DSW, etc.). That being said, I think it just comes down to semantics. What is a "doctorate" anyways? And who cares? Why does it matter? It connotes a certain level of expertise, and the standard for classifying those levels varies based on field anyways.

Those are just my thoughts. I have done a lot of research and have a lot of university experience, but I don't personally have any experience seeking jobs in OT or working as an OT. So my perspective is, in that respect, narrow. But I honestly don't see much that makes getting the OTD worth it.

ATSU has both MOT and DOT options. The masters program is 27 months long and is a little under 31k per year, which rounds to about 72k for the degree
The Doctorate program is 36 months long and is an additional 20 grand, the entire program being around 90k
The Doctorate is cheaper than a handful of masters programs I've applied to...ex: Midwestern AZ is 102k for the masters program.
I was accepted to the OTD program however I was considering moving to the MSOT program...at this point, im still unsure about which path to choose. unlike some of the more expensive OTD programs, ATSU seems to offer competitive rates with other MSOT programs.
Any advise?

 

[occupationalguy]

ATSU has both MOT and DOT options. The masters program is 27 months long and is a little under 31k per year, which rounds to about 72k for the degree
The Doctorate program is 36 months long and is an additional 20 grand, the entire program being around 90k
The Doctorate is cheaper than a handful of masters programs I've applied to...ex: Midwestern AZ is 102k for the masters program.
I was accepted to the OTD program however I was considering moving to the MSOT program...at this point, im still unsure about which path to choose. unlike some of the more expensive OTD programs, ATSU seems to offer competitive rates with other MSOT programs.
Any advise?

The advice remains the same. If you prefer an OTD, get it. I can see no benefit to paying an additional 21k PLUS interest PLUS living expenses PLUS wages lost for a degree you have NO need for. If you want one, get one paid for by your job if they really want you to have it. Otherwise, notice: most directors of rehab have BACHELORS degrees in OT (PT too for that matter is the same, plenty of BS/MS people in charge in that field). Why pay more than you have to? You think the alphabet soup after your name is worth an extra 50 k? Go for it.

It's not "worthless" it's a valuable degree for the RIGHT purposes; if you are an experienced clinician you can consider it. Otherwise it's wasted money IMHO.
I would also ask you why you need to pay 75k nearly for a "cheap" mot degree? I paid under half that and graduated last year. There are state schools you CAN get into which are dramatically cheaper. Why pay more than you need? If you wish to be a clinician you really need a license to practice and EXPERIENCE, no one cares much about your OTD etc.

 

[PuppyloverOT]

Im confused where everybody is finding "cheap" programs. In my state, the cheapest I have found for a masters is a little over 60k. The next cheapest starts in mid to high 70s (unless you want to do a weekend programs and I personally don't). The 60k program is also very new and places students 1-2 hours away for fieldwork. Am I missing something?

 

[OT510]

The advice remains the same. If you prefer an OTD, get it. I can see no benefit to paying an additional 21k PLUS interest PLUS living expenses PLUS wages lost for a degree you have NO need for. If you want one, get one paid for by your job if they really want you to have it. Otherwise, notice: most directors of rehab have BACHELORS degrees in OT (PT too for that matter is the same, plenty of BS/MS people in charge in that field). Why pay more than you have to? You think the alphabet soup after your name is worth an extra 50 k? Go for it.

It's not "worthless" it's a valuable degree for the RIGHT purposes; if you are an experienced clinician you can consider it. Otherwise it's wasted money IMHO.
I would also ask you why you need to pay 75k nearly for a "cheap" mot degree? I paid under half that and graduated last year. There are state schools you CAN get into which are dramatically cheaper. Why pay more than you need? If you wish to be a clinician you really need a license to practice and EXPERIENCE, no one cares much about your OTD etc.

 

[occupationalguy]

Im confused where everybody is finding "cheap" programs. In my state, the cheapest I have found for a masters is a little over 60k. The next cheapest starts in mid to high 70s (unless you want to do a weekend programs and I personally don't). The 60k program is also very new and places students 1-2 hours away for fieldwork. Am I missing something?

Do the work needed to find these programs. Research. I did. I can think of at least 3 programs with degree cost of under 50k. Paying 6 figures for a degree that will make you 60-70k starting salary, and a median salary of 80k isn't very wise. No one wants to hear this, I know I didn't. I wanted to hear "follow your dreams, go where you "feel right", and match the program and like the campus etc etc. My father is a doctor and he did me a favor and said: no one cares where you graduated from or what your grades were in your program, or which degree you have: you need a license to practice and experience.

Take a look at those online calculators, that 100k will be 400-500k by the time a student pays it all off. This is why I caution wide eyed students: avoid the snake oil. Do not pay for an OTD when you have no need to. That extra 50k+ you are paying is going to cost you a ton of money later, and all for no reason if you desire to be a clinician. If you want to be an academic follow the right route: Masters in OT + Another relevant MS perhaps (Public health/psych etc) ORRRR a PhD in OT or related field of specialization.

Our system is messed up that anyone would think 40k is "cheap". Tell a European that you paid 40k for a public university degree and they would keel over backwards. The degree should be free. We get what we demand, and we have a society fractured along race and class lines - we are an us vs them society. Sweden? Canada? Everyone is better off, with larger middle classes. We get what we vote for here.

Rant done

 

[OT2Be17]

Im confused where everybody is finding "cheap" programs. In my state, the cheapest I have found for a masters is a little over 60k. The next cheapest starts in mid to high 70s (unless you want to do a weekend programs and I personally don't). The 60k program is also very new and places students 1-2 hours away for fieldwork. Am I missing something?

I think it just kind of depends on your state. I'll be getting my doctorate in state and will be paying 50k total. There aren't many schools that offer masters in my state and if they do they're in a rough area or require a third year regardless for a transition year. I feel like what's best for everyone changes on where they're located and what's going on in their state.

 

[PuppyloverOT]

Do the work needed to find these programs. Research. I did. I can think of at least 3 programs with degree cost of under 50k. Paying 6 figures for a degree that will make you 60-70k starting salary, and a median salary of 80k isn't very wise. No one wants to hear this, I know I didn't. I wanted to hear "follow your dreams, go where you "feel right", and match the program and like the campus etc etc. My father is a doctor and he did me a favor and said: no one cares where you graduated from or what your grades were in your program, or which degree you have: you need a license to practice and experience.

Take a look at those online calculators, that 100k will be 400-500k by the time a student pays it all off. This is why I caution wide eyed students: avoid the snake oil. Do not pay for an OTD when you have no need to. That extra 50k+ you are paying is going to cost you a ton of money later, and all for no reason if you desire to be a clinician. If you want to be an academic follow the right route: Masters in OT + Another relevant MS perhaps (Public health/psych etc) ORRRR a PhD in OT or related field of specialization.

Our system is messed up that anyone would think 40k is "cheap". Tell a European that you paid 40k for a public university degree and they would keel over backwards. The degree should be free. We get what we demand, and we have a society fractured along race and class lines - we are an us vs them society. Sweden? Canada? Everyone is better off, with larger middle classes. We get what we vote for here.

Rant done

I appreciate your input, but I can assure you that I have done a lot of research. For my state, I have looked at all of the accredited programs. Only one traditional entry level masters program is in under 70,000. The other one under 70,000 is a 3 year, weekend program. The others are combined masters/doctorates. I've looked into surrounding states as well and the tuition is either the same for in-state/out-of-state and cost over 60k or outstate is over 60k. Perhaps prices have inflated a lot in the past few years. I'm not disputing that the OTD is over-priced or questionable. I am hoping to get into a cheaper (in comparison to OTD programs) program, but I have yet to find a school that is traditional and established for lower than 70k. Perhaps education is just cheaper where you are or I am missing something huge.

 

[PuppyloverOT]

I think it just kind of depends on your state. I'll be getting my doctorate in state and will be paying 50k total. There aren't many schools that offer masters in my state and if they do they're in a rough area or require a third year regardless for a transition year. I feel like what's best for everyone changes on where they're located and what's going on in their state.

I think that's awesome that you can obtain your doctorate for 50k! Your state must really invest in their higher education. Best of luck

 

[OT2Be17]

I think that's awesome that you can obtain your doctorate for 50k! Your state must really invest in their higher education. Best of luck

Best of luck to you too!! Also not sure if you know this, but I have quite a few friends who've gone to school out of state and it's expensive for the first year but they completed lots of paperwork and changed their residency to be in state so the last two years would be a lot cheaper. May be a bit of work but could be another option!

 

[PuppyloverOT]

Best of luck to you too!! Also not sure if you know this, but I have quite a few friends who've gone to school out of state and it's expensive for the first year but they completed lots of paperwork and changed their residency to be in state so the last two years would be a lot cheaper. May be a bit of work but could be another option!

I haven't thought about that. I'll definitely look into it, thank you

 

[occupationalguy]

I appreciate your input, but I can assure you that I have done a lot of research. For my state, I have looked at all of the accredited programs. Only one traditional entry level masters program is in under 70,000. The other one under 70,000 is a 3 year, weekend program. The others are combined masters/doctorates. I've looked into surrounding states as well and the tuition is either the same for in-state/out-of-state and cost over 60k or outstate is over 60k. Perhaps prices have inflated a lot in the past few years. I'm not disputing that the OTD is over-priced or questionable. I am hoping to get into a cheaper (in comparison to OTD programs) program, but I have yet to find a school that is traditional and established for lower than 70k. Perhaps education is just cheaper where you are or I am missing something huge.

Univ of Tenn Nashville - 50k for out of staters
Western Michigan Univ - 45k for out of staters

Both very low cost of living places.
There are more.

 

[PuppyloverOT]

Univ of Tenn Nashville - 50k for out of staters
Western Michigan Univ - 45k for out of staters

Both very low cost of living places.
There are more.

Thank you for the examples. I kept my search mostly on the East coastline so maybe if I was willing to open up my geographic wants I would have found cheaper programs like the ones you provided. Though my friend applied to Univ of Tenn and the cost is actually over 60K for out of state. It is cheaper than most schools in my state (minus 1 or 2), but it's not that far away from 70,000. Seems like I just live in a bad state for graduate school since our in-state tuition is crazy in comparison to other states.

 

[occupationalguy]

My friend goes to U Tenn Nashville - and his total degree cost is 50k. Each campus may have difft rates.

If you are bound by geography - my advice is not relevant - but if you are not bound by geography, opt for cheaper programs you can find. There are more than a few programs with masters degrees hovering around the 50k mark.

I understand the stress surrounding admissions into a program. I was there too. I get a lot of questions emailed to me etc by prospective applicants wanting to know if a higher ranked program will afford them more job opportunities, or if an OTD will make them "more competitive". The answer is no. Your director of rehab will most likely have a BS. Most do.

Get the experience you need and the degree necessary for practice if practice is your goal. No one has ever asked me my GPA, or been impressed that I went to a "first tier" program. Employers ask me my experience level, and if I am LICENSED TO PRACTICE in the state. Period. When I was at my last position the PTs would talk enviously of the practitioners who got their Masters or Bachelors degree to get in the field before their move to the DPT.

 

[prodigiousflame]

Have to back up avocado. This guy used to be mot4me who was banned from the forum and he's reincarnated as "occupational guy" and all he does is get on here to rant about the same topic over and over again. Obviously some of you weren't around when he was posting as mot4me. We get it...go to a cheap school. We heard you the first 100 threads you've started on this same topic. He doesn't listen to other people's opinions if they're different and will only address you if you agree with him. Also the pt he started a thread about wasn't even bashing us he just stated ot is not for him, but the op has a neurotic way of twisting people's words to make them look like the enemy. He lost credibility in that thread with all his ranting and he came back in the ot forum for your guyses support (aka ego stroking).

Also as much as he likes to defend our field he's started two separate threads in the psych subsection (I frequent that section) on how to get out of ot and get into even more debt to get a phd/psyd in psychology. I find it real ironic that a guy who starts a thread about every other day on not spending that much money on your ot degree is contemplating going into twice the debt for an additional phd psych degree. He also sent a nasty sarcastic email to my inbox about how I'm defending the pt who "bashed our profession" just because I didn't see it in the same way. I don't see things in black and white like you do mot4me and I'm not gonna entertain your neuroticism or accusations.

I hope you get help for whatever you're dealing with and it's only a matter of time before you get banned again. Toodles

 

[occupationalguy]

Have to back up avocado. This guy used to be mot4me who was banned from the forum and he's reincarnated as "occupational guy" and all he does is get on here to rant about the same topic over and over again. Obviously some of you weren't around when he was posting as mot4me. We get it...go to a cheap school. We heard you the first 100 threads you've started on this same topic. He doesn't listen to other people's opinions if they're different and will only address you if you agree with him. Also the pt he started a thread about wasn't even bashing us he just stated ot is not for him, but the op has a neurotic way of twisting people's words to make them look like the enemy. He lost credibility in that thread with all his ranting and he came back in the ot forum for your guyses support (aka ego stroking).

Also as much as he likes to defend our field he's started two separate threads in the psych subsection (I frequent that section) on how to get out of ot and get into even more debt to get a phd/psyd in psychology. I find it real ironic that a guy who starts a thread about every other day on not spending that much money on your ot degree is contemplating going into twice the debt for an additional phd psych degree. He also sent a nasty sarcastic email to my inbox about how I'm defending the pt who "bashed our profession" just because I didn't see it in the same way. I don't see things in black and white like you do mot4me and I'm not gonna entertain your neuroticism or accusations.

I hope you get help for whatever you're dealing with and it's only a matter of time before you get banned again. Toodles

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...op-100-jobs-in-america.1237658/#post-18618944

↑
Said to me: "You sound insecure about being an OT. DPTs have a much bigger responsibility in the rehabilitation process than OTs. Most clinics have more PTs hired than OTs. Your first post stated the OTs are gonna beat PTs out, so you're the one trying to make this a competition."

You "liked" that. Not only is that trashing our field, it's just wrong. OT and PT each have a big role to play in rehab; only a know it all student could say something that foolish, and you agreed to it, which is why I wrote to you stating that you agreed with it. Which you did.

The guy said I was "competitive" when I commented on the thread asking why PT is dropping in the CNN "best Jobs list" by saying: "PS - OT always beats you guys out
PPS J/K we are sister fields. Strongly support my PT bros and sisters "

That was clearly a joke. I also followed it by saying how much I support PTs, and I included smiley faces.

As for me having an interest in mental health and making an inquiry about it, and PA, may I know why that is bad? People have different interests. You stated that I am unhappy in my field because I expressed an interest in another field? My parents both did career shifts and still like their previous career: nothing wrong with that at all.

My tone has always been respectful. I won't engage in ad hominem attacks like you have been doing.

I have never had a different username or been banned, but you can allege whatever you want. I'm sure this forum keeps IP logs, please write to the moderator.

 

[edinOT]

@YogaOT - I just saw your comment on WashU's OTD curriculum.. so I just wanted to chime in as someone who knows a bit more about it as I am in the OTD program there..I can only speak to Wash U's OTD.

They are very similar curriculums (with core classes) to become a clinician, but the OTD degree starts to veer off in your independent lab in the spring. Actually kind of even in the fall as you're finding a lab to match with. In the spring, the "applied clinical research" or the "clinical track" classes have the same names, but different focus depending on if you're a MSOT or OTD because the projects will be different, one being a year plus longer than the other. You might be spending several ours more a week with your mentor, trying to pin down a project that you'll be invested into for awhile. OTD students end up doing additional ~20 credits just in research or clinical track work that's not required by AOTA. 83 credit hours for MSOT, 114 for OTD. The total credit hours are more similar to an MSOT+pp-OTD rather than many other OTD programs with closer to 100 credit hours. You also do one FWII after year 2 and come back for your 3rd year so you do have some practical experience to build on. This is in contrast to many MSOT (including ours) or OTD programs having you complete your fieldworks at the very end without the opportunity to take that experience back to the classroom and learn and apply it. Many OTD programs and pp-OTD also have significant online components (I know BU's summers are online), however we are always in the classroom. We also have the opportunity for electives in any graduate school here (medicine, law, public health). Just wanted to highlight a few things. I could go on but I guess you all get my drift.

The way I see OTD value (at least at Wash U) is that I will graduate as a clinician and (very likely as its required for my lab) a published researcher in my specialty of choice. It's a 3.5 year program with 1.5 years heavily focusing (for me) on research, and gaining skills to continue to produce research once I leave. That starting point for me is really valuable. I don't want a PhD where I will be dedicating my life as a researcher, but I would like additional time and years and years of mentorship to be able to competently produce, collaborate or participate in research throughout my career. My previous career was in clinical research so I have a decent base, but theres so, so much more to learn. The intensive mentorship experience is intimate, and I think extremely valuable. But, I know this does not align with everyones goals. I'm also at a point in my life where I've had a career and want to take every opportunity to make OT as fruitful as possible (opening up non traditional doors), and I know I would not like to go back for a PhD or pp-OTD. So my decision has many parts but it's just my situation.

Everyone is unique and will find their own way until entry-level requirements change. Let's all be client centered and respect and encourage what people find meaningful and valuable

 

[WillBeOT]

Have to back up avocado. This guy used to be mot4me who was banned from the forum and he's reincarnated as "occupational guy" and all he does is get on here to rant about the same topic over and over again. Obviously some of you weren't around when he was posting as mot4me. We get it...go to a cheap school. We heard you the first 100 threads you've started on this same topic. He doesn't listen to other people's opinions if they're different and will only address you if you agree with him. Also the pt he started a thread about wasn't even bashing us he just stated ot is not for him, but the op has a neurotic way of twisting people's words to make them look like the enemy. He lost credibility in that thread with all his ranting and he came back in the ot forum for your guyses support (aka ego stroking).

Also as much as he likes to defend our field he's started two separate threads in the psych subsection (I frequent that section) on how to get out of ot and get into even more debt to get a phd/psyd in psychology. I find it real ironic that a guy who starts a thread about every other day on not spending that much money on your ot degree is contemplating going into twice the debt for an additional phd psych degree. He also sent a nasty sarcastic email to my inbox about how I'm defending the pt who "bashed our profession" just because I didn't see it in the same way. I don't see things in black and white like you do mot4me and I'm not gonna entertain your neuroticism or accusations.

I hope you get help for whatever you're dealing with and it's only a matter of time before you get banned again. Toodles

Prodigious flame--you are right, this "occupationalguy" user was previously using the username "MOT4ME" until he got reported so many times that he got banned from the site under that MOT4ME username. You're right, it's definitely him back with a new username. Too bad. Advice and opinions are always great and welcome, but there's a right way to offer your opinions.

 

[occupationalguy]

You have both chosen to personally attack me, and I have reported both of you to the forum admin. If you don't like my opinions, either respectfully respond or withhold comment.

 

[occupationalguy]

Prodigious flame--you are right, this "occupationalguy" user was previously using the username "MOT4ME" until he got reported so many times that he got banned from the site under that MOT4ME username. You're right, it's definitely him back with a new username. Too bad. Advice and opinions are always great and welcome, but there's a right way to offer your opinions.

I was never banned from this forum. I contacted admin. If I was banned they surely would have IP records of it. The personal attacks here are absurd. Instead of sticking to the substance of a discussion you're making it personal. I've been civil 110% of the time, and I have offered encouragement to students who opt for the OTD: If that is what they want to do, I think that's good for them. It is my advice that there is no need for the degree for an entry level clinician. If you disagree, that's fine too.

I do think it is a slight to say that PT is "more central to rehab" than OT is. It betrays a lack of experience in rehab to say something that is that much of a generalization about the rehab process. I have been in a neurological setting and seen the critical importance of OT for people recovering from stroke/TBI.

Again, stick to the substance. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. I don't get the personal attacks.

 

[Neuronix]

There is nothing actionable here. Please stop reporting these posts. Keep it civil and stop making personal attacks. You can all debate and have an adult discussion.

 

[occupationalguy]

Keep it civil. Focus on the discussion, avoid personal attacks. I don't get why this thread has devolved into ad homs. Seriously.

 

[HME4OT]

From a practical and financial standpoint, I agree with OP. It makes no sense to pay more for a degree (or school) that won't earn you a greater income than someone who held out to pay less. It's a travesty that this profession is moving toward requiring clinical doctorates without the salary increase a higher level degree should qualify.

If I were in a position to choose between being an OT with $100K debt and $65K salary, or finding a different career... Sadly, I'd be compelled to enter another field that I could afford. It's not that I don't love OT enough, but life is more than loving your career. I'd like to enjoy the other parts of life too and not be tethered by such heavy debt! I'm a homeowner with 2 kids and I have a very realistic understanding of what $100K+ of debt looks like and how expensive life becomes after college. I also see that in a risk-reward scenario, the potential income does not outweigh the risk of being that far in debt.

Further, I'd really want to get out into the field ASAP, making money and gaining clinical experience. If I could expedite school by taking heavier credit loads, I absolutely would.

All that being said, if you can afford the price tag of a private school/OTD/what have you, and the extra classroom hours excite you, and there's nothing preventing you from accruing debt/not working right away, there's nothing wrong with ANY of that. I just personally feel that the perspective of the OP is legitimate and his advice is sage IF the logistics of paying for school matter in your decision-making process.

 

[TCMena]

only asking about practicing, not teaching.
when only the bachelor's was required for entry-level OT, was it the same for the MS/MA back then before 2007? same salary entry-level or forward? did the people with more schooling have an advantage entry-level or years later? i did a quick search on hospital staff and many of them still only have a BS and OTDs are rarer. It seems those with an OTD are more likely to teach
so the same goes for PTs with DPT vs the master's & bachelor's, same salary? any advantage at entry-level vs. later with more experience?
do employers ask if an OTD is post-professional or entry-level? does the post have an edge over the other?
i've been told by OTs experience matters more

 

[occupationalguy]

only asking about practicing, not teaching.
when only the bachelor's was required for entry-level OT, was it the same for the MS/MA back then before 2007? same salary entry-level or forward? did the people with more schooling have an advantage entry-level or years later? i did a quick search on hospital staff and many of them still only have a BS and OTDs are rarer. It seems those with an OTD are more likely to teach
so the same goes for PTs with DPT vs the master's & bachelor's, same salary? any advantage at entry-level vs. later with more experience?

We've covered this a lot here. Salary does not typically (I've never heard of it varying) based on what degree you have. Your pay will vary based on the experience you have. An OTD is a practitioners degree, traditionally for a person with experience. If you wish to pursue teaching you're best off to get a PhD in OT or related field.