Will doctors become obsolete?

[peteB]

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They already tried that.... nurses had a sub 50% PASS rate. Best to not be certain about things you are wrong about 👎

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So what. How much Step 1 knowledge do you think doctors retain anyway? I think just about anyone who is intelligent could learn to do the majority of what a doctor does by apprenticing with him for a couple of years... Not everything, but probably the majority of stuff. Most of it just isn't as complicated as you guys are making it out to be. I'm not even saying this as a med student, I've heard the same from real doctors.

 

[SpecterGT260]

So what. How much Step 1 knowledge do you think doctors retain anyway? I think just about anyone who is intelligent could learn to do the majority of what a doctor does by apprenticing with him for a couple of years... Not everything, but probably the majority of stuff. Most of it just isn't as complicated as you guys are making it out to be. I'm not even saying this as a med student, I've heard the same from real doctors.

It isn't, nor should it ever be, about doing MOST of what a doctor does. If you can only do most of what a doctor does you kill most of your patients who really need you.

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[ijn]

You can't compare windows help, which is basically a book in digital form with an extremely simple search function, to an Artificially Intelligent Supercomputer.

Your argument that "windows help sucks so an artificially intelligent supercomputer must also suck" is basically the same as saying a nurse sucks at doing surgery so a surgeon must also suck at it. They are two completely unrelated things.

You think microsoft invested millions of dollars to make Windows Help? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I can't believe anyone can be that stupid. It's just a book in digital form. It doesn't have a brain. It's not artificially intelligent. It's running on your $500 laptop not a multi-million dollar supercomputer. It's supposed to be extremely simple. Do you expect your pathology textbook to diagnose you too?

By the way, how did google find that search you did out of billions of pages on the internet in a few milliseconds. Can you do that?

Also, "windows" isn't an entity, it's the name of a product. The maker is Microsoft. If you're gonna bash something at least get the name right.

Windows help is more than just a search function of a book. It's the whole troubleshooting engine. It's absolutely useless. Have a driver that doesn't work? God help you if you don't search on your own, because an OS made in 2012 isn't powerful enough to solve such a basic problem on its own. Computers can't even diagnose their own problems, now they're going to be responsible for people? Talk about delusional.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Windows help is more than just a search function of a book. It's the whole troubleshooting engine. It's absolutely useless. Have a driver that doesn't work? God help you if you don't search on your own, because an OS made in 2012 isn't powerful enough to solve such a basic problem on its own. Computers can't even diagnose their own problems, now they're going to be responsible for people? Talk about delusional.

This..... um... I hope you're being facetious.

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[peteB]

Windows help is more than just a search function of a book. It's the whole troubleshooting engine. It's absolutely useless. Have a driver that doesn't work? God help you if you don't search on your own, because an OS made in 2012 isn't powerful enough to solve such a basic problem on its own. Computers can't even diagnose their own problems, now they're going to be responsible for people? Talk about delusional.

Dude, are you seriously a med student? Because you're making yourself look really stupid here. You're comparing a simple help function in a desktop operating system that sells for 100 bucks at Best Buy and is made to run on the cheapest possible hardware to an Artificially Intelligent Supercomputer that costs millions upon millions. Windows Help is NOT designed to solve everyone single one of your problems. It's a very simple troubleshooting tool, that's all it is.

That's like asking a car to get you into space. You know why it can't? Because it's NOT A SPACESHIP, and it's not supposed to be!

you know why your honda civic doesn't go as fast as a bugatti veyron? Because it's not one.

You must be either delusional yourself or trolling or incredibly stupid.

 

[ijn]

Okay the magical AIs that don't exist and cost trillions of dollars are going to take over medicine. TIME TO QUIT MEDICINE! And there's going to be robots doing surgeries 6512% more efficiently than surgeons. And there's going to be computer algorithms for radiologists and pathologists reading everything instantly. SOON!

(if i come back in 20 years and the technology doesn't exist yet, it'll still be SOON!)

edit: my friend is a doctor in bulgaria and my sister is a computer science phd, and i read a lot of cnet articles so i KNOW about this stuff

 

[peteB]

Okay the magical AIs that don't exist and cost trillions of dollars are going to take over medicine. TIME TO QUIT MEDICINE! And there's going to be robots doing surgeries 6512% more efficiently than surgeons. And there's going to be computer algorithms for radiologists and pathologists reading everything instantly. SOON!

(if i come back in 20 years and the technology doesn't exist yet, it'll still be SOON!)

edit: my friend is a doctor in bulgaria and my sister is a computer science phd, and i read a lot of cnet articles so i KNOW about this stuff

Obviously you know nothing if you're comparing Windows Help on your sh**ty home PC with 2 cores to a Watson Supercomputer with 2,880 cores and expecting windows help to be just as powerful.

 

[ijn]

Obviously you know nothing if you're comparing Windows Help on your sh**ty home PC with 2 cores to a Watson Supercomputer with 2,880 cores.

btw NO ONE should go into radiology residency. they are the FIRST to get replaced by our super computer Artificial Intelligence Overlords. After that, the urologists WILL be next. I warned you.

Altho when india gets the right to practice radiology in america without a licence, they will replace supercomputers

 

[peteB]

btw NO ONE should go into radiology residency. they are the FIRST to get replaced by our super computer Artificial Intelligence Overlords. After that, the urologists WILL be next. I warned you.

Oh quit already. You already made your (meaningless) point.

 

[peteB]

Altho when india gets the right to practice radiology in america without a licence, they will replace supercomputers

Well then why don't you just sit tight until that happens and then you can practice without a license too!

 

[ijn]

Well then why don't you just sit tight until that happens and then you can practice without a license too!

cuz radiology is boring i don't like dark rooms full of balding losers unless it's the OR and i'm cuttin' a bitch

 

[peteB]

cuz radiology is boring i don't like dark rooms full of balding losers unless it's the OR and i'm cuttin' a bitch

LOL. are you high

 

[peteB]

From wiki "Watson could analyze the patient's specific symptoms, medical history, and hereditary history, and synthesize that data with available unstructured and structured medical information, including published medical books and articles. IBM has made it clear that Watson does not intend to replace doctors, but assist them to avoid medical errors and sharpen medical diagnosis with the help of its advanced analytics technology."

There you go, you can all chill for now.

Of course, if you have Watson in the hospital, your patients will assume it's doing all the work and complain about why they have to pay you so much 😛

 

[ijn]

lol. that software is going to be horrible at diagnosing medicaid patients. it'll be great for diagnosing middle class whites. most poor people don't know their family medical history, their own medical history, and can't articulate their symptoms and history of present illness beyond i don't feel well or pain here, it hurt lots.

 

[peteB]

lol. that software is going to be horrible at diagnosing medicaid patients. it'll be great for diagnosing middle class whites. most poor people don't know their family medical history, their own medical history, and can't articulate their symptoms and history of present illness beyond i don't feel well or pain here, it hurt lots.

Way to stereotype and insult poor people and be racist at the same time bro. I really hope you're not actually a med student.

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[yappy]

Let me put this whole discussion to an end.

Technologists will always look to technology to solve every problem. That is why you see these sort of speculations made on behalf of the tech crowd. It's similar to the common expression that "if all you have a hammer everything looks like a nail".

There will always be a human professional needed in order to correctly treat and manage diseases. Even with DX guided computer systems physicians roles also include carrying out invasive procedures, managing a medical team, as well as consideration for the type of care a patient is even interested in. When you consider that a computer cannot even correctly interp an ECG rhythm it is interesting to think that the computer "engineers" (that my me throw up a little) will make systems that will replace doctors anytime soon. Perhaps they can increase their productivity? Maybe.. but it seems as though the more layers of technology added to health care the more provides are handcuffed by it; rather than an increase in productivity.

I have dealt with the tech crowed all through undergrad. Take PeteB for instance... nice guy I'm sure but even he's a recovering technologist - brainwashed by his UG computer program. They talk about the infinite possibilities of their work and then hold up wiki as some sort of source - displaying their weakness of being devoid of academic rigor. They speak of being an "engineer" or "scientist" but completely skip over the sciences and instead spend an afternoon at starbucks learning how to code java from a "dummies" book. LOL.

Discussion has ended.

 

[peteB]

Let me put this whole discussion to an end.

Technologists will always look to technology to solve every problem. That is why you see these sort of speculations made on behalf of the tech crowd. It's similar to the common expression that "if all you have a hammer everything looks like a nail".

There will always be a human professional needed in order to correctly treat and manage diseases. Even with DX guided computer systems physicians roles also include carrying out invasive procedures, managing a medical team, as well as consideration for the type of care a patient is even interested in. When you consider that a computer cannot even correctly interp an ECG rhythm it is interesting to think that the computer "engineers" (that my me throw up a little) will make systems that will replace doctors anytime soon. Perhaps they can increase their productivity? Maybe.. but it seems as though the more layers of technology added to health care work to handcuff provides rather than make them more productive.

There you go again...computer engineers aren't real engineers huh... give it a break already. I bet you- the "real" engineer couldn't understand a word of Artificial Intelligence theory even if you tried. I'd love to see how well you code. You'll never even come close to being as smart as an IBM Watson Engineer, so don't even talk. Your brain would explode if you tried to do what they do. Why don't you and your "real" engineering buddies just stick to designing wall sockets or sump pumps or something like that because that's what "real" engineers do, while we make the world's most powerful and intelligent systems that everyone, including you, rely on on a daily basis. Bet you couldn't even code the simplest of apps you use every day. "real" engineer my a**.

You so called "real" engineers should shut down your computers and start doing your work with pencil and paper and an abacus, if you have such a low opinion of us. You are talking sh** about our work but I can bet you couldn't do better even if your life depended on it.

We don't want to be like you. You're a lot closer to the type of "engineer" that picks up my trash, that's right- the so called "Sanitation Engineer". If that's what you mean by "engineer" then yeah, we're not one of those.

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[mimelim]

You guys seem to be under the false impression that doctors are some kind of superhuman geniuses who handle the most complex issues on earth. Unfortunately that's not even close to the truth. You don't need to be a genius to be a doctor. You just need to have a somewhat greater than average intelligence and be a very hard worker. The second part is even more important than the first. Before you tell me "how do you know"- a doctor who has been in practice for over 40 years told me that. Besides, I've seen with my own eyes people graduating med school who are not the brightest bulbs in the bunch.

The fact is, the vast majority of issues that the average doctor deals with are not very complicated at all. They're actually fairly straightforward. That's why midlevels even exist.

Not like I think doctors aren't smart or important. I'm in med school, I obviously do. But I think we need to be a bit more humble and stop acting like we are Gods ourselves.

You seem to be arguing with thin air considering that nobody n this thread has said anything remotely close to what you are claiming but ok.

 

[peteB]

You seem to be arguing with thin air considering that nobody n this thread has said anything remotely close to what you are claiming but ok.

Read between the lines and you'll see it.

 

[yappy]

PeteB, serious question.

Would you really put computer engineering curriculum on the same level as chemical or mechanical curriculum?

Computer Engineer hard at work:

ChemE student hard at work:

There you go again...computer engineers aren't real engineers huh... give it a break already. I bet you- the "real" engineer couldn't understand a word of Artificial Intelligence theory even if you tried. I'd love to see how well you code. You'll never even come close to being as smart as an IBM Watson Engineer, so don't even talk. Your brain would explode if you tried to do what they do. Why don't you and your "real" engineering buddies just stick to designing wall sockets or sump pumps or something like that because that's what "real" engineers do, while we make the world's most powerful and intelligent systems that everyone, including you, rely on on a daily basis. Bet you couldn't even code the simplest of apps you use every day. "real" engineer my a**.

We don't want to be like you. You're a lot closer to the type of "engineer" that picks up my trash, that's right- the so called "Sanitation Engineer". If that's what you mean by "engineer" then yeah, we're not one of those.

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[peteB]

PeteB, serious question.

Would you really put computer engineering curriculum on the same level as chemical or mechanical curriculum?

First of all computer engineering is not the same as computer science. I'm talking about Computer Science. And yes, a real, math and theory intensive computer science curriculum is just as rigorous and challenging as any MechE or ChemE curriculum if not more. How do I know that? Because I have friends who switched over from both of those fields and told me it was much much harder for them to understand the hardcore math and computational theory in CS. One of them even failed 2 CS courses after passing every MechE class. The other one barely passed Compilers which isn't even close to the hardest class.

And for the record I also took chem and physics for my CS degree.

If you're talking about a "computer engineer" who holds a degree from online or DeVry that basically teaches you Java and nothing else, then no. There is a big difference between a real computer scientist/engineer, whatever you call it, and a dude who just knows how to code in a couple languages and program a cisco router.

Either way your engineering elitism is very uncool.

 

[mimelim]

The problem with this is that pete knows nothing about medicine so nothing he says can be taken seriously in this discussion. it is like arguing with a pre-med. Anyways, moving on.

 

[peteB]

The problem with this is that pete knows nothing about medicine so nothing he says can be taken seriously in this discussion. it is like arguing with a pre-med. Anyways, moving on.

Im a third year med student. What are you talking about? I'm not a resident like you, but I don't know "nothing" about medicine.

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[link2swim06]

Why does every thread turn into peteB vs. all?

 

[yappy]

I agree.

If you're talking about a "computer engineer" who holds a degree from online or DeVry that basically teaches you Java and nothing else, then no. There is a big difference between a real computer scientist/engineer, whatever you call it, and a dude who just knows how to code in a couple languages and program a cisco router.

Either way your engineering elitism is very uncool.

PS: PeteB. Have you ever read Free by Anderson? I'm trying to DX your level of techitis.

 

[link2swim06]

First of all computer engineering is not the same as computer science. I'm talking about Computer Science. And yes, a real, math and theory intensive computer science curriculum is just as rigorous and challenging as any MechE or ChemE curriculum if not more. How do I know that? Because I have friends who switched over from both of those fields and told me it was much much harder for them to understand the hardcore math and computational theory in CS. One of them even failed 2 CS courses after passing every MechE class. The other one barely passed Compilers which isn't even close to the hardest class.

And for the record I also took chem and physics for my CS degree.

If you're talking about a "computer engineer" who holds a degree from online or DeVry that basically teaches you Java and nothing else, then no. There is a big difference between a real computer scientist/engineer, whatever you call it, and a dude who just knows how to code in a couple languages and program a cisco router.

Either way your engineering elitism is very uncool.

Java is actually one of the more 'difficult' languages to learn. Do you mean javascript?

 

[diagonal]

Im a third year med student. What are you talking about?

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[peteB]

Java is actually one of the more 'difficult' languages to learn. Do you mean javascript?

No I mean Java. I was making the distinction between a coder and a computer scientist. Yappy was confusing the two. A coder just understands how to use a language to make certain apps. A real computer scientist is an expert on the theory and the mathematics behind all computation, not just proficient at coding in a couple of languages. There is a huge difference.

Unfortunately nowadays the term "computer scientist" and "computer engineer" are thrown around very loosely and even a guy with a certificate from an online course in HTML could call himself a "computer engineer".

As Edward Djisktra said, Computer Science is as much about computers as Astronomy is about telescopes. Real computer scientists are problem-solvers, not coders. They apply mathematical theory to solve problems and use computers and code as a tool.

 

[peteB]

I agree.



PS: PeteB. Have you ever read Free by Anderson? I'm trying to DX your level of techitis.

No, haven't read it. I'll check it out.

 

[peteB]

Why does every thread turn into peteB vs. all?

Because I tell the truth, and people are afraid of the truth. 🙂 They know I'm right and it pisses them off.

 

[link2swim06]

No I mean Java. I was making the distinction between a coder and a computer scientist. Yappy was confusing the two. A coder just understands how to use a language to make certain apps. A real computer scientist is an expert on the theory and the mathematics behind all computation, not just proficient at coding in a couple of languages. There is a huge difference.

As Edward Djisktra said, Computer Science is as much about computers as Astronomy is about telescopes. Real computer scientists are problem-solvers, not coders. They apply mathematical theory to solve problems and use computers and code as a tool.

I don't even understand how a computer scientist plays into this equation. A proficient understand of java (wherever you learned it) and a few other languages is enough. You don't need to invent a new language to make an algorithm. There are a million things out there already to develop on.

You are very poorly informed if you think coders aren't problem solvers. I worked as a software engineer for 5 years.

 

[peteB]

I don't even understand how a computer scientist plays into this equation. A proficient understand of java (wherever you learned it) and a few other languages is enough. You don't need to invent a new language to make an algorithm. There are a million things out there already to develop on.

You are very poorly informed if you think coders aren't problem solvers. I worked as a software engineer for 5 years.

I was a software engineer before coming to med school too, so I'm not poorly informed about my own field. I've been coding since I was 12.

A proficient understanding of Java isn't enough to design an artificially intelligent medical diagnosis system. You need to have an in-depth understanding of AI theory. The language is just a tool. You could write DeepQA (Watson) in any language you want. But you can't write it without an in depth understanding of CS theory and the ability to apply that theory to a complex problem like this. You're not going to develop that as a plugin on top of a wordpress install.

You are talking about Implementing an algorithm, I'm talking about designing an algorithm.

You don't need a strong theoretical background to implement quicksort or minimax with alpha-beta pruning, but I'd love to see someone who has no theoretical background and only an understanding of OOP and how to use Java libraries invent an algorithm like that from scratch.

A software engineer that understands how to use a few high-level languages but doesn't understand tCS theory compared to a Computer Scientist who has a deep theoretical background is like a PA vs an MD, Ph.D.

Similarly: Knowing French and Spanish fluently doesn't make you automatically able to write epic novels.

If you think a software engineer with a certificate in java from the University of Phoenix has enough knowledge and understanding to develop a medical AI for watson, then you are the one who's poorly informed.

 

[rongeur]

I was a software engineer before coming to med school too, so I'm not poorly informed about my own field.

A proficient understanding of Java isn't enough to design an artificially intelligent medical diagnosis system. You need to have an in-depth understanding of AI theory. The language is just a tool. You could write DeepQA (Watson) in any language you want. But you can't write it without an in depth understanding of CS theory and the ability to apply that theory to a complex problem like this. You're not going to develop that as a plugin on top of a wordpress install.

You are talking about Implementing an algorithm, I'm talking about designing an algorithm.

You don't need a strong theoretical background to implement quicksort or minimax with alpha-beta pruning, but I'd love to see someone who has no theoretical background and only an understanding of OOP and how to use Java libraries invent an algorithm like that from scratch.

If you think a software engineer with a certificate in java from the University of Phoenix has enough knowledge and understanding to develop a medical AI for watson, then you are the one who's poorly informed.

But it's quite obvious the obnoxious guy above who said you have "techitis" is right. The commonly shared symptom (usually seen in computer types, not medical people for obvious reasons) is vastly overestimating both the speed at which technology will become superior to human performance and the speed at which it will become implemented in a situation where errors can lead to death.

Certainly in 200 years the tricorder will be doing all the work. Yet I would love to hear how Watson is going to replace physician diagnosis in the next 20 years when 20 years of working on ECG machine diagnosis hasn't made the slightest dent in replacing physician interpretation, a problem that is literally orders of magnitude easier for a machine to perform (signal analysis versus natural language).

 

[peteB]

Certainly in 200 years the tricorder will be doing all the work. Yet I would love to hear how Watson is going to replace physician diagnosis in the next 20 years when 20 years of working on ECG machine diagnosis hasn't made the slightest dent in replacing physician interpretation, a problem that is literally orders of magnitude easier for a machine to perform (signal analysis versus natural language).

You can't compare the two things. Just because one project isn't working out doesn't mean another won't. There are differing levels of money, talent, manpower and hardware in each. Are ECG machines all attached to supercomputers? Do they all have gigaflops of processing power? Most of them are less powerful than your average smartphone. Is the watson team also working on that? Are these ECG machines manufactured by the tech giants?

You're comparing apples and oranges.

 

[link2swim06]

I was a software engineer before coming to med school too, so I'm not poorly informed about my own field.

A proficient understanding of Java isn't enough to design an artificially intelligent medical diagnosis system. You need to have an in-depth understanding of AI theory. The language is just a tool. You could write DeepQA (Watson) in any language you want. But you can't write it without an in depth understanding of CS theory and the ability to apply that theory to a complex problem like this. You're not going to develop that as a plugin on top of a wordpress install.

You are talking about Implementing an algorithm, I'm talking about designing an algorithm.

You don't need a strong theoretical background to implement quicksort or minimax with alpha-beta pruning, but I'd love to see someone who has no theoretical background and only an understanding of OOP and how to use Java libraries invent an algorithm like that from scratch.

If you think a software engineer with a certificate in java from the University of Phoenix has enough knowledge and understanding to develop a medical AI for watson, then you are the one who's poorly informed.

Why are you obsessed with where people got there degree? Experience far trumps where you went to school. Who cares where people went to school. I taught myself everything i know yet I have a better understanding that many college educated cs people I hired.

I definitely could write the Watson AI in even php if you gave me a year or two. I have no theoretical training. What Watson or Siri does isn't that difficult.

 

[peteB]

Why are you obsessed with where people got there degree? Experience far trumps where you went to school. Who cares where people went to school. I taught myself everything i know yet I have a better understanding that many college educated cs people I hired.

I definitely could write the Watson AI in even php if you gave me a year or two. I have no theoretical training. What Watson or Siri does isn't that difficult.

No you can't. That's just like your average nurse saying hey I can do a heart transplant too who needs med school or residency. BS. You can do what it took a whole team of developers a decade in 2 years yourself with 5 years total experience and no theoretical knowledge? Please...

If you're such an amazing software engineer why aren't you making millions in the software industry?

The only thing you'll code in two years in php is some lame drupal module that adds a post to pinterest button to things...

Experience != comprehensive knowledge. That's why a recently graduated attending >> a Pa with 2 decades experience. Theoretical background and understanding is important. How does a decade of coding html help you with AI

I don't care where you went to school but curriculums differ. The schools I mentioned have really terrible and lacking curriculum.

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[yesno]

You guys seem to be under the false impression that doctors are some kind of superhuman geniuses who handle the most complex issues on earth. Unfortunately that's not even close to the truth. You don't need to be a genius to be a doctor. You just need to have a somewhat greater than average intelligence and be a very hard worker. The second part is even more important than the first. Before you tell me "how do you know"- a doctor who has been in practice for over 40 years told me that. Besides, I've seen with my own eyes people graduating med school who are not the brightest bulbs in the bunch.

The fact is, the vast majority of issues that the average doctor deals with are not very complicated at all. They're actually fairly straightforward. That's why midlevels even exist.

Not like I think doctors aren't smart or important. I'm in med school, I obviously do. But I think we need to be a bit more humble and stop acting like we are Gods ourselves.

+1. Interesting how they all get so defensive. And keep switching arguments just for the sake of arguing. First they say that step1 separates them from mere mortals. Then "step1 doesn't make you a doctor". I guess it's the way you relate to the patients, same as nurses relate to the patients, that makes you so special. Then they try to make me feel less important by calling me ms1 instead of ms2.
I just disagree with you that we must be humble. I think if people think you are very important then you should embrace it. But I don't think people will keep thinking this way for long, and then again there is nothing to do but to accept your fate. Of course some doctors may still become bigshots. But it's a reach for most.

 

[Evil_Abed]

Because I tell the truth, and people are afraid of the truth. 🙂 They know I'm right and it pisses them off.

People aren't pissed off because you "tell the truth" or because you're "right." People are pissed off because you are incredibly annoying and, almost always, derail what could've been a potentially interesting discussion. It has occurred in multiple threads. You fit the "know-it-all" med student stereotype with the "I'm always right and, if you disagree with me, then **** you" attitude absolutely perfectly.

We get it already. You think engineers/computer scientists are smarter than doctors. Fair enough. I don't think any of us really care. We want to become great clinicians, so we'll work our hardest towards getting there without worrying about what professions are "smarter" than us.

Do I think machines/AI will be replacing physicians for anything in our lifetimes? No. Before you tell me "how do you know"- a computer scientist with decades of experience told me that. Besides, I've seen with my own eyes people graduating with engineering degrees (from top 5 engineering departments, btw) who are not the brightest bulbs in the bunch. Does that line sound familiar to you?

I do find it kind of ironic that you just berated link2swim06 for suggesting that experience in coding trumps a formal education while you, an M3 who isn't even halfway through rotations and barely has an understanding of the practice of medicine, are making judgments on how hard or easy the practice of medicine is. Why don't you get some more clinical training (you know, finish up the clinical years and, more importantly, get through a year or two of residency) before making comments on its complexity? You're basically someone with 2 years of classroom education making comments on something that takes a minimum of 7 years of training. But, please, go ahead and keep telling the residents in this thread how you think their job is so easy and that you know more about the practice of medicine than they do! After all, an attending told you, right?

 

[Evil_Abed]

+1. Interesting how they all get so defensive. And keep switching arguments just for the sake of arguing. First they say that step1 separates them from mere mortals. Then "step1 doesn't make you a doctor". I guess it's the way you relate to the patients, same as nurses relate to the patients, that makes you so special. Then they try to make me feel less important by calling me ms1 instead of ms2.
I just disagree with you that we must be humble. I think if people think you are very important then you should embrace it. But I don't think people will keep thinking this way for long, and then again there is nothing to do but to accept your fate. Of course some doctors may still become bigshots. But it's a reach for most.

In my years here on SDN, I've never seen anyone make the argument that Step 1 separates physicians from others. In fact, the mantra often repeated here is that Step 1 (and the other standardized exams) are necessary, but not sufficient to become a physician. Meaning that it's the 7 years (minimum) of training that physicians get that makes them physicians, not the fact that they can do well on some standardized exams.

 

[yesno]

No you can't. That's just like your average nurse saying hey I can do a heart transplant too who needs med school or residency. BS. You can do what it took a whole team of developers a decade in 2 years yourself with 5 years total experience and no theoretical knowledge? Please...

If you're such an amazing software engineer why aren't you making millions in the software industry?

The only thing you'll code in two years in php is some lame drupal module that adds a post to pinterest button to things...

Experience != comprehensive knowledge. That's why a recently graduated attending >> a Pa with 2 decades experience. Theoretical background and understanding is important. How does a decade of coding html help you with AI

I don't care where you went to school but curriculums differ. The schools I mentioned have really terrible and lacking curriculum.

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+1. Not to mention that higher level comp science or math is not accessible to most people unlike medicine/religious studies.

 

[peteB]

We get it already. You think engineers/computer scientists are smarter than doctors. Fair enough.

I never said this. Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[peteB]

In my years here on SDN, I've never seen anyone make the argument that Step 1 separates physicians from others. In fact, the mantra often repeated here is that Step 1 (and the other standardized exams) are necessary, but not sufficient to become a physician. Meaning that it's the 7 years (minimum) of training that physicians get that makes them physicians, not the fact that they can do well on some standardized exams.

You should go back to the DNP thread where the argument was made that basic science knowledge is part of what makes physicians better than midlevels. Step 1 is a test of basic science knowledge.

Some people also used the argument that DNP's wouldn't be able to pass Step 1 as a reason why physicians are better.

 

[peteB]

People aren't pissed off because you "tell the truth" or because you're "right." People are pissed off because you are incredibly annoying and, almost always, derail what could've been a potentially interesting discussion. It has occurred in multiple threads. You fit the "know-it-all" med student stereotype with the "I'm always right and, if you disagree with me, then **** you" attitude absolutely perfectly.

Fine. If you guys don't want me here then I'll leave, I don't want to be somewhere I'm not wanted. But I just want to say, I don't agree with your description of me. I'm not a know-it-all type at all. I never said "f*** you" to anyone that disagreed with me. All I did was argue strongly for my position. I have strong beliefs and I argue for them. I thought that is what an internet discussion forum was for.

Once in a while people threw unneccessary insults at me, and I responded in turn. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. For example, I'm not going to lie down and take it when yappy up there belittles my undergraduate degree (that he knows nothing about) and the grueling work and sleepless nights that went into obtaining it. I don't think anyone would. No, yappy, I didn't learn advanced mathematics off of urban dictionary.

Anyway, that's all I have to say. If I offended you guys, I'm sorry. If I annoyed you, I'm sorry. I wish you had a chance to meet me in person, because I'm actually a very nice guy and I care about people a lot.

 

[link2swim06]

No you can't. That's just like your average nurse saying hey I can do a heart transplant too who needs med school or residency. BS. You can do what it took a whole team of developers a decade in 2 years yourself with 5 years total experience and no theoretical knowledge? Please...

If you're such an amazing software engineer why aren't you making millions in the software industry?

The only thing you'll code in two years in php is some lame drupal module that adds a post to pinterest button to things...

Experience != comprehensive knowledge. That's why a recently graduated attending >> a Pa with 2 decades experience. Theoretical background and understanding is important. How does a decade of coding html help you with AI

I don't care where you went to school but curriculums differ. The schools I mentioned have really terrible and lacking curriculum.

Sent from my DROIDX using SDN Mobile

I don't follow your logic. Whatever this argument is pointless.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

+1. Interesting how they all get so defensive. And keep switching arguments just for the sake of arguing. First they say that step1 separates them from mere mortals. Then "step1 doesn't make you a doctor". I guess it's the way you relate to the patients, same as nurses relate to the patients, that makes you so special. Then they try to make me feel less important by calling me ms1 instead of ms2.
I just disagree with you that we must be humble. I think if people think you are very important then you should embrace it. But I don't think people will keep thinking this way for long, and then again there is nothing to do but to accept your fate. Of course some doctors may still become bigshots. But it's a reach for most.

Aren't you the guy who can't stop looking at porn?

On another note, this thread has turned into a huge nerd peen measuring contest holy crap.

 

[Evil_Abed]

Fine. If you guys don't want me here then I'll leave, I don't want to be somewhere I'm not wanted. But I just want to say, I don't agree with your description of me. I'm not a know-it-all type at all. I never said "f*** you" to anyone that disagreed with me. All I did was argue strongly for my position. I have strong beliefs and I argue for them. I thought that is what an internet discussion forum was for.

Yes, this is a discussion forum, but you have a history of derailing threads, whether it's your intention or not. I can understand that you have strong beliefs and argue on behalf of them, but when you come off as if you know better than residents (who are years ahead of you, in terms of training and actually knowing what the practice of medicine is like in the real world), you start losing credibility. I'm an M2, but I don't claim to know more about clinical rotations than you (an M3) just because I read about how rotations are like or because an upperclassman told me what it's like.

Once in a while people threw unneccessary insults at me, and I responded in turn. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. For example, I'm not going to lie down and take it when yappy up there belittles my undergraduate degree (that he knows nothing about) and the grueling work and sleepless nights that went into obtaining it. I don't think anyone would. No, yappy, I didn't learn advanced mathematics off of urban dictionary.

Yea, it sucks when people insult you. But you know what? This is an anonymous internet forum. You'll see such things on any forum you go. If you have experience with internet message boards, you'll realize sooner-or-later that it's not worth getting worked up over these things. Who cares what some anonymous person on the internet thinks about something? By responding back to them (aggressively), you're only going to keep derailing the thread and escalating the insults thrown around, risking getting the thread closed. So, what could've been a fun and interesting discussion gets shut down.

PS. The "Ignore" function works really well if someone keeps harassing you.

Anyway, that's all I have to say. If I offended you guys, I'm sorry. If I annoyed you, I'm sorry. I wish you had a chance to meet me in person, because I'm actually a very nice guy and I care about people a lot.

Fair enough. And I apologize for coming down harshly on you. I'm just sick of seeing thread after thread degenerating into meaningless discussions on technicalities or throwing around insults (I'm not saying that you're responsible for all of this) these days and finally snapped, I guess.

 

[45408]

If medicine isn't plug and chug then how come I see midlevels plugging and chugging every day? Studies show they handle at least 80% of cases as well as mds do.

The point of all of this is that we're better than mid-levels...

Actually step 1 is mostly recall of facts. The questions are a bit convoluted but they all are based on remembering some set of facts. I know I've taken and passed it.

You can't pass any test without some facts/principles memorized.

You guys seem to be under the false impression that doctors are some kind of superhuman geniuses who handle the most complex issues on earth. Unfortunately that's not even close to the truth. You don't need to be a genius to be a doctor. You just need to have a somewhat greater than average intelligence and be a very hard worker. The second part is even more important than the first. Before you tell me "how do you know"- a doctor who has been in practice for over 40 years told me that. Besides, I've seen with my own eyes people graduating med school who are not the brightest bulbs in the bunch.

I never said this. Please don't put words in my mouth. No reading between the lines is necessary or implied.

I think just about anyone who is intelligent could learn to do the majority of what a doctor does by apprenticing with him for a couple of years... Not everything, but probably the majority of stuff. Most of it just isn't as complicated as you guys are making it out to be. I'm not even saying this as a med student, I've heard the same from real doctors.

Apprentice for a couple of years, like residency and fellowship, which is 3-6 years, after you've had 4 years of background training?

Because I tell the truth, and people are afraid of the truth. 🙂 They know I'm right and it pisses them off.

lol

 

[badasshairday]

As someone who (on occasion) beat chess masters in tournaments I can say that the strategies involved in playing chess are much more complicated than medicine. To teach a computer to play chess it is much more than teaching it to solve problems or memorize common moves. I am certain that a nurse with an open access to your textbooks (even if on iphone) could easily get 260+ on step1 or any other medical exam. Because it is all about memorization. But give me access to all the chess strategy books and even let me have a 2nd chess board so I could practice various chess positions and I still wouldn't have a chance against Kasparov. Just like technology would not help me become an artist or a mathematician. By the way if Kasparov did not have a nervous breakdown he would not lose to that computer. His overall game as evaluated by other grandmasters was deemed superior.

WTF are you smoking dude? If Step 1 was all you needed to be a doctor, "because practicing medicine is all about memorization" in your opinion, then third year medical students would be the best. They are clueless, as you can see in the hospital and on this thread itself.

I feel stupider after reading this thread and having pre-clinical medical students and MS3's talk about how practicing medicine is easy and all about memorization. Talk to me after your first month of internship young grasshopper.

 

[SpecterGT260]

WTF are you smoking dude? If Step 1 was all you needed to be a doctor, "because practicing medicine is all about memorization" in your opinion, then third year medical students would be the best. They are clueless, as you can see in the hospital and on this thread itself.

I feel stupider after reading this thread and having pre-clinical medical students and MS3's talk about how practicing medicine is easy and all about memorization. Talk to me after your first month of internship young grasshopper.

This. I'm positive Id be run right off the floor if I pretended step1 knowledge made me able to go toe to toe with even a 4th year.

 

[PikminOC]

at the hospitals ive worked at, yeah physicians will become obsolete, bc NP/DNP/etc will get moer prescribing rights and we are way more expensive.

it is not about quality care..it is only about numbers..only..