Will I be considered a URM

[HM3]

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And that's wonderful gumdrop, but not every URM has those stats and im sure if they were borderline applicants and they had to choose between getting in because of their race or not getting in so they can retain their "pride", im pretty sure they'd gladly take the acceptance. i know I would.

Haha. What a ridiculous comment. So it's so black and white (pun intended) that it's a matter of pride to go to school? As if all URMs rely heavily on the fact that they are URM to get them in. No, they do the same amount of "trying" and complete the same steps as other races to get them where they want to be. I also find your claim of URM "taking spots" from borderline white applicants to be equally ridiculous seeing as this is the DO forum. Look at the % of Black applicants to DO schools.

 

[411309]

Haha. What a ridiculous comment. So it's so black and white (pun intended) that it's a matter of pride to go to school? As if all URMs rely heavily on the fact that they are URM to get them in. No, they do the same amount of "trying" and complete the same steps as other races to get them where they want to be. I also find your claim of URM "taking spots" from borderline white applicants to be equally ridiculous seeing as this is the DO forum. Look at the % of Black applicants to DO schools.

did you not read anything I wrote? go back and read that..good grief..now you're just twisting things around. Never once said blacks are taking spots from borderline white applicants. I never used the word "all" either. Honestly im not sure what the point is in responding to you since whatever I say gets completely turned around by you.

 

[polymathg]

From my understanding, people from Spain are Caucasians, not Hispanics.

 

[HM3]

did you not read anything I wrote? go back and read that..good grief..now you're just twisting things around. Never once said blacks are taking spots from borderline white applicants. I never used the word "all" either. Honestly im not sure what the point is in responding to you since whatever I say gets completely turned around by you.

Sorry Cole, mistook you for MedPR. He used that arguement.

 

[gumbyj]

From my understanding, people from Spain are Caucasians, not Hispanics.

You are confusing race and ethnicity. People from Spain are "White" and "Hispanic" even though they are not considered URM.

 

[UrshumMurshum]

I have a 3.7 Science GPA and a 38 MCAT as well as way above avg. ECs. I'm pretty sure I could be chameleon and get into Medical School.

And FYI I love all people of all colors. I do however, have negativity towards overweight folks.

HM3 but the thing is, URM's with those stats get discriminated against after they graduate. See what happened to Dr. Head at UCLA. People begin to think that URM doctors are only doctors because of backdoor entrances to medical school. It undermines those who legitimately worked hard and earned their spot.

Also what about the URM's who weren't disadvantaged? Those who grew up in privileged families who let's say got what otherwise would have been borderline stats. 3.4/28 let's say. Why should they be given such a huge advantage over someone else who had a similar upbringing who didn't have their skin color?

I think the best way to go about this is to get rid of the URM advantage and just have additional resources in undergraduate colleges to get URM's the resources they lack to give them a more equal opportunity. Yes it's challenging to do so, but it's a lot better than what we have now.

 

[HalfListic]

HM3 but the thing is, URM's with those stats get discriminated against after they graduate. See what happened to Dr. Head at UCLA. People begin to think that URM doctors are only doctors because of backdoor entrances to medical school. It undermines those who legitimately worked hard and earned their spot.

Also what about the URM's who weren't disadvantaged? Those who grew up in privileged families who let's say got what otherwise would have been borderline stats. 3.4/28 let's say. Why should they be given such a huge advantage over someone else who had a similar upbringing who didn't have their skin color?

I think the best way to go about this is to get rid of the URM advantage and just have additional resources in undergraduate colleges to get URM's the resources they lack to give them a more equal opportunity as those not disadvantaged. Yes it's challenging to do so, but it's a lot better than what we have now.

I've had the same train of thought. Can't really argue with this...

 

[HM3]

HM3 but the thing is, URM's with those stats get discriminated against after they graduate. See what happened to Dr. Head at UCLA. People begin to think that URM doctors are only doctors because of backdoor entrances to medical school. It undermines those who legitimately worked hard and earned their spot.

Also what about the URM's who weren't disadvantaged? Those who grew up in privileged families who let's say got what otherwise would have been borderline stats. 3.4/28 let's say. Why should they be given such a huge advantage over someone else who had a similar upbringing who didn't have their skin color?

I think the best way to go about this is to get rid of the URM advantage and just have additional resources in undergraduate colleges to get URM's the resources they lack to give them a more equal opportunity. Yes it's challenging to do so, but it's a lot better than what we have now.

To your first point: Duh?

To your second point: There is no such thing as a URM who isnt disadvantaged. Race will always affect them. Like your UCLA example..
Someone else who had a similar upbringing with a different skin color? You're comparing race and class. While both have it's disadvantages/advantages; they are separate.

Your third point: See my response to second point. Race and class are two different systems of power. Solving one does not solve the other. If you're truly interested in equality please read up some more on it.

 

[HalfListic]

I don't think you're quite the URM that they talk about when discussing minority status. You're of european descent, like the "majority of the majority" of US citizens.

Your family must be pretty divided during the soccer semifinals!

+1

Also, I'm loving this soccer...wish it were a bigger deal in the states

 

[UrshumMurshum]

To your first point: Duh?

To your second point: There is no such thing as a URM who isnt disadvantaged. Race will always affect them. Like your UCLA example..
Someone else who had a similar upbringing with a different skin color? You're comparing race and class. While both have it's disadvantages/advantages; they are separate.

Your third point: See my response to second point. Race and class are two different systems of power. Solving one does not solve the other. If you're truly interested in equality please read up some more on it.

I understand that at one time in our history racism was a major force. I understand that in some small communities in America it still rears its ugly head, but when the president of the United States is African American and as we have moved many decades since the civil rights movement, it just isn't a strong reality anymore. The remnant exists as socioeconomic disadvantages from the past.

 

[HM3]

I understand that at one time in our history racism was a major force. I understand that in some small communities in America it still rears its ugly head, but when the president of the United States is African American and as we have moved many decades since the civil rights movement, it just isn't a strong reality anymore. The remnant exists as socioeconomic disadvantages from the past, but not the racial component.

You're absolutely wrong.

 

[UrshumMurshum]

You're absolutely wrong.

By your logic shouldn't all women be given advantages as well since sexism also exists?

 

[HM3]

By your logic shouldn't all women be given advantages as well since sexism also exists?

Yes. Women should be treated as equals and not subject to gender roles. Having AA for women would help. Just take a look at the type of jobs women currently hold. It's sickening.

And no, I'm not a liberal. I'm an American; and equality is the value we supposedly base our culture on.

 

[UrshumMurshum]

Yes.

But how do you measure the impact of sexism or racism on an individual's life? It's not standardized, one person in the deep south is going to be exposed to more difficulties than someone in a progressive area, or they might be minimally affected depending on their social circles and community background. It's not fair to generalize to everyone.

And I'm willing to meet you half way, of course there are doors closed because of race or gender even today, but is it really as bad as it was in the 1960s? 70s? 80s? 90s? 2000s? 2010s? I mean we do have an African American president. My own view is the major disadvantage for URMs is their socioeconomic class which is more resilient to change over time and is still a remnant of our racist past. That's my view and yeah I mean I can't provide objective evidence to a subject that is largely subjective.

but MLK did say to judge based off the content of character and not the color of skin and I think we should take those words of wisdom.

 

[HM3]

Your views are wrong. Blacks are racially profiled, disproportionately put in the justice system as a consequence. The social media depicts black people as ugly, lazy, and generally dangerous. That has nothing to do with socioeconomic class and is very detrimental to not only blacks, but whites as well. People are making judgements based on skin color without even realizing it.

It's so engrained in our society, and to say it doesn't exist anymore is probably the worse thing you can do. We have a Black President, but look at all the flak he takes- a lot of it because of racism. The Tea Party (which is a racist group), was formed on the basis of him being elected in the first place.

If you want to live in a bubble, and have your views; fine. If you want to talk about the real world; read a book, open your eyes and get back to me. Good luck.

 

[411309]

Your views are wrong. Blacks are racially profiled, disproportionately put in the justice system as a consequence. The social media depicts black people as ugly, lazy, and generally dangerous. That has nothing to do with socioeconomic class and is very detrimental to not only blacks, but whites as well. People are making judgements based on skin color without even realizing it.

It's so engrained in our society, and to say it doesn't exist anymore is probably the worse thing you can do. We have a Black President, but look at all the flak he takes- a lot of it because of racism. The Tea Party (which is a racist group), was formed on the basis of him being elected in the first place.

If you want to live in a bubble, and have your views; fine. If you want to talk about the real world; read a book, open your eyes and get back to me. Good luck.

How does the media depict white people? Corrupt, evil, lazy, etc. People don't give obama crap because he's black; they do it because he is honestly not a very good president. Let's be honest, the only reason he won too was because he was black. Call me racist or w/e but we all know it's the truth. America was dying for a black president. So we got one. And you know what, he's about the same as the string of past failures we've had. We're going to continue having crappy presidents because only crappy people run for office.


What about the black panthers? They're pretty racist to me. Jesse jackson and his buddy the "reverend". Point that we're all trying to make here is that racism works both ways. I've been discriminated against and i'm white.But that's ok because white people are evil. That's what the media says, and thats what this new campaign is saying about "white privilege".

I want you to tell me how YOU have it so bad. I'm guessing you're a minority? What have white people done to you that's just so awful that makes you feel you need to be on a pedestal above them? Besides offer minorities tons of scholarships, AA, easier access to government aide, easier admission to med school, etc.

 

[HM3]

How does the media depict white people? Corrupt, evil, lazy, etc. People don't give obama crap because he's black; they do it because he is honestly not a very good president. Let's be honest, the only reason he won too was because he was black. Call me racist or w/e but we all know it's the truth. America was dying for a black president. So we got one. And you know what, he's about the same as the string of past failures we've had. We're going to continue having crappy presidents because only crappy people run for office.


What about the black panthers? They're pretty racist to me. Jesse jackson and his buddy the "reverend". Point that we're all trying to make here is that racism works both ways. I've been discriminated against and i'm white.But that's ok because white people are evil. That's what the media says, and thats what this new campaign is saying about "white privilege".

I want you to tell me how YOU have it so bad. I'm guessing you're a minority? What have white people done to you that's just so awful that makes you feel you need to be on a pedestal above them? Besides offer minorities tons of scholarships, AA, easier access to government aide, easier admission to med school, etc.

Maybe I can come tap dance for you later.

 

[HalfListic]

.

 

[MedPR]

Yes. Women should be treated as equals and not subject to gender roles. Having AA for women would help. Just take a look at the type of jobs women currently hold. It's sickening.

And no, I'm not a liberal. I'm an American; and equality is the value we supposedly base our culture on.

Affirmative action would actually make them unequal. Racism and discrimination are everywhere and special programs made to combat them are actually perpetuating them.

Also, what types of jobs are you talking about? And what's sickening about it? I can't think of a single profession where women are not represented except for executive office. There will always be gender roles and gender roles don't necessarily mean inequality. For example, a traditional gender roles mean the husband does handwork and yardwork, and the wife cooks and cleans. Where's the inequality? Each person is expected to pull their own weight. Sure it's sexist that the woman is "expected" to do a, b, and c while the man is "expected" to do jobs x, y, and z. But I fail to see how being subject to gender roles automatically translates to inequality.

I'm not saying there is equality, because there isn't, but it certainly doesn't manifest entirely in "gender roles."

 

[MedPR]

How does the media depict white people? Corrupt, evil, lazy, etc. People don't give obama crap because he's black; they do it because he is honestly not a very good president. Let's be honest, the only reason he won too was because he was black. Call me racist or w/e but we all know it's the truth. America was dying for a black president. So we got one. And you know what, he's about the same as the string of past failures we've had. We're going to continue having crappy presidents because only crappy people run for office.


What about the black panthers? They're pretty racist to me. Jesse jackson and his buddy the "reverend". Point that we're all trying to make here is that racism works both ways. I've been discriminated against and i'm white.But that's ok because white people are evil. That's what the media says, and thats what this new campaign is saying about "white privilege".

I want you to tell me how YOU have it so bad. I'm guessing you're a minority? What have white people done to you that's just so awful that makes you feel you need to be on a pedestal above them? Besides offer minorities tons of scholarships, AA, easier access to government aide, easier admission to med school, etc.

Obama won because the country wanted a huge change. Being black might have helped, but I wouldn't say that's the whole reason. I agree otherwise, though.

For example, I wonder what would happen if the next time a white president is elected, a bunch of white people make "Yes we did!" fliers and victory stickers. Huge outcry over racism. Remember when P. Diddy said "black power" at the NBA all-star game? When would it ever be acceptable for a white businessman to say "white power" on a grand stage? Never. Racism is everywhere and every single person is racist to some extent.

 

[J0HNS0N]

I remember the good days when a white person killed a black guy.

uhhhhh did anyone else catch this? ok back to lurking lol

 

[MedPR]

Your views are wrong. Blacks are racially profiled, disproportionately put in the justice system as a consequence. The social media depicts black people as ugly, lazy, and generally dangerous. That has nothing to do with socioeconomic class and is very detrimental to not only blacks, but whites as well. People are making judgements based on skin color without even realizing it.

It's so engrained in our society, and to say it doesn't exist anymore is probably the worse thing you can do. We have a Black President, but look at all the flak he takes- a lot of it because of racism. The Tea Party (which is a racist group), was formed on the basis of him being elected in the first place.

If you want to live in a bubble, and have your views; fine. If you want to talk about the real world; read a book, open your eyes and get back to me. Good luck.

There's racism everywhere and minorities are not the only target.

 

[HM3]

There's racism everywhere and minorities are not the only target.

You're absolutely right, but in a way you do not even know. 😛

 

[MedPR]

You're absolutely right, but in a way you do not even know. 😛

Idk, I think I'm pretty aware of racism. It's a part of society and it's never going to go away. As long as there is diversity, there will be racism even if it's positive racism (e.g. black people are the most athletic and asian people are the smartest).

 

[HM3]

There's racism everywhere and minorities are not the only target.

Racism everywhere. Here's a hint. Are white's the majority of the world?

Check out Gapminder.org
See the Wealth & Health of Nations Graph

 

[HM3]

Idk, I think I'm pretty aware of racism. It's a part of society and it's never going to go away. As long as there is diversity, there will be racism even if it's positive racism (e.g. black people are the most athletic and asian people are the smartest).

We're talking about inequality here. If you want to have a serious conversation; fine. But please bring relevant examples to the table. And let me just note that there's nothing positive about those stereotypes.

 

[Iliketoytles]

We're talking about inequality here. If you want to have a serious conversation; fine. But please bring relevant examples to the table. And let me just note that there's nothing positive about those stereotypes.

How are those bad stereotypes? There are such things as positive stereotypes. While racism is a serious thing, being uptight about it just perpetuates the problem. No offense.

 

[MedPR]

We're talking about inequality here. If you want to have a serious conversation; fine. But please bring relevant examples to the table. And let me just note that there's nothing positive about those stereotypes.

Ok, well I don't know where you live, but in America (and I think most everywhere else in the world) athleticism and intelligence are typically considered positive traits. My point was that at the very least positive racism will stick around forever. The examples I provided are relevant to my point.

 

[DrLeon]

Judging by the thread it would seem that the need for URM status is a subject that is very difficult to research (joking). First of all, let's define what URM really means. Under Represented Minority means that you come from a racial population that is statistically significant, but lacking in reciprocal physician numbers. Blacks, for instance, comprise 13% of the American population, but only 6% of the total enrollment of medical school students (MD and DO). On the other side of the coin are Over Represented Minorities such as Asians who make up only 4-6% of the population, but 15-20% of med school students.

IF you guys ever make it to this side (med school) you will learn about something called healthcare disparity/inequality. In a nutshell, the populations with the greatest need for healthcare are the URM populations (Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans, Pacific Islanders, etc.). It is a fact that URM students are more likely to treat those in URM populations. It is also a fact that URM students are more likely to research disease processes that primarily affect URM populations. (I point you to the AHRQ factsheet http://www.ahrq.gov/research/disparit.htm). It is also the hope of most ADCOMS that class diversity will increase the cultural competency of all students (students teaching each other about their cultures), which will increase the likelihood of doctors connecting with patients from a different cultural background.

As a student that works closely with my school's admissions office I can tell you that we actively seek qualified URM candidates because diversifying our medical school classes falls directly in line with our schools mission of supplying quality healthcare to EVERY citizen of our state.

In the admissions process URM status doesn't give you as big of a leg up as many people think it does (If it did we would have a lot more URMs in med school).

For those of you concerned that the majority of URMs in med schools are Black millionaires that gamed the system I have bad news for you. There is another box that everyone can check that denotes economic disadvantage which a lot of schools take more seriously than URM designation (It just so happens to be that a higher percentage of URMs are also economically disadvantaged as well).

Lastly, can we please stop with this low MCAT scapegoat. There is only one section that has had any real relevance to med school and that is the Bio section (usually everyone's highest score).

If you all do make it to this side and see the terrible shape of our healthcare system I hope that it opens your eyes to the need to train more culturally competent and diverse doctors.

 

[HM3]

Sounds like you're making excuses for Racism AND Black people Dr. Leon.

 

[MedPR]

Haha. What a ridiculous comment. So it's so black and white (pun intended) that it's a matter of pride to go to school? As if all URMs rely heavily on the fact that they are URM to get them in. No, they do the same amount of "trying" and complete the same steps as other races to get them where they want to be. I also find your claim of URM "taking spots" from borderline white applicants to be equally ridiculous seeing as this is the DO forum. Look at the % of Black applicants to DO schools.

Sorry Cole, mistook you for MedPR. He used that arguement.

Wait, what argument was that again? I said that it's a possibility that a low stat URM could outcompete a borderline non-URM. If you think that's an untrue statement, then I don't know what to tell you.

IF you guys ever make it to this side (med school) you will learn about something called healthcare disparity/inequality. In a nutshell, the populations with the greatest need for healthcare are the URM populations (Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans, Pacific Islanders, etc.). It is a fact that URM students are more likely to treat those in URM populations. It is also a fact that URM students are more likely to research disease processes that primarily affect URM populations. (I point you to the AHRQ factsheet http://www.ahrq.gov/research/disparit.htm). It is also the hope of most ADCOMS that class diversity will increase the cultural competency of all students (students teaching each other about their cultures), which will increase the likelihood of doctors connecting with patients from a different cultural background.

If you all do make it to this side and see the terrible shape of our healthcare system I hope that it opens your eyes to the need to train more culturally competent and diverse doctors.

Look at the big bad med student thinking that pre-meds don't know about disparaties in healthcare. Man, I can only hope and pray to someday be on your "side" of the world. You're so special and I hope you know that. I sincerely hope to be as intelligent and well informed as you are someday. 👍

 

[UrshumMurshum]

Judging by the thread it would seem that the need for URM status is a subject that is very difficult to research (joking). First of all, let's define what URM really means. Under Represented Minority means that you come from a racial population that is statistically significant, but lacking in reciprocal physician numbers. Blacks, for instance, comprise 13% of the American population, but only 6% of the total enrollment of medical school students (MD and DO). On the other side of the coin are Over Represented Minorities such as Asians who make up only 4-6% of the population, but 15-20% of med school students.

IF you guys ever make it to this side (med school) you will learn about something called healthcare disparity/inequality. In a nutshell, the populations with the greatest need for healthcare are the URM populations (Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans, Pacific Islanders, etc.). It is a fact that URM students are more likely to treat those in URM populations. It is also a fact that URM students are more likely to research disease processes that primarily affect URM populations. (I point you to the AHRQ factsheet http://www.ahrq.gov/research/disparit.htm). It is also the hope of most ADCOMS that class diversity will increase the cultural competency of all students (students teaching each other about their cultures), which will increase the likelihood of doctors connecting with patients from a different cultural background.

As a student that works closely with my school's admissions office I can tell you that we actively seek qualified URM candidates because diversifying our medical school classes falls directly in line with our schools mission of supplying quality healthcare to EVERY citizen of our state.

In the admissions process URM status doesn't give you as big of a leg up as many people think it does (If it did we would have a lot more URMs in med school).

For those of you concerned that the majority of URMs in med schools are Black millionaires that gamed the system I have bad news for you. There is another box that everyone can check that denotes economic disadvantage which a lot of schools take more seriously than URM designation (It just so happens to be that a higher percentage of URMs are also economically disadvantaged as well).

Lastly, can we please stop with this low MCAT scapegoat. There is only one section that has had any real relevance to med school and that is the Bio section (usually everyone's highest score).

If you all do make it to this side and see the terrible shape of our healthcare system I hope that it opens your eyes to the need to train more culturally competent and diverse doctors.

I'm all for more URM's getting into medical school. For much the same reasons you just mentioned. I'm arguing we need to get programs started probably in high school to give URM's in disadvantaged locations the resources they need to have an equal chance as everyone else.

What I was arguing against is giving such a huge MCAT + GPA boost for just being a certain race. For reasons I mentioned earlier.

 

[guydudcl371]

Moderators can we close this thread now? The question has been answered and the thread has been derailed.

 

[JustUnder9000]

Try being from straight out of Africa, more African than the majority of Black-Americans, and being forced to mark "caucasian" haha. I'm from an underdeveloped country in North Africa, but all countries in North Africa and the Middle East are considered white. (please no one talk about the origin of the word caucasian and what it means, I already know).

 

[DrLeon]

I'm all for more URM's getting into medical school. For much the same reasons you just mentioned. I'm arguing we need to get programs started probably in high school to give URM's in disadvantaged locations the resources they need to have an equal chance as everyone else.

What I was arguing against is giving such a huge MCAT + GPA boost for just being a certain race. For reasons I mentioned earlier.

I completely agree with you. I wish there was no NEED for URM status as well, and programs like that are a good start. I mentor a lot of younger students from middle school up through high school and college and I feel that the ability and desire to make it through the journey into medicine starts at a very young age. We need better schools and a better environment to cultivate the minds of the young people who aspire to these heights, but it won't happen overnight. And just a comment about the MCAT: I may be mistaken, but I don't think any URM has gotten in solely because they have a borderline MCAT and GPA. That test maybe measures about 20% of the knowledge you will gain in medical school (the rest you may never use again), and it should be known that DO schools don't weigh the MCAT as heavily as MD schools. The hollistic review tries to look at the entire applicant in addition to the numbers. If it ever comes down to a choice between accepting a URM vs. a non URM, it would be more so because of the non-cognitive variables than the MCAT (They wouldn't compare a URM with a 25 to a non URM with a 30)

 

[411309]

I completely agree with you. I wish there was no NEED for URM status as well, and programs like that are a good start. I mentor a lot of younger students from middle school up through high school and college and I feel that the ability and desire to make it through the journey into medicine starts at a very young age. We need better schools and a better environment to cultivate the minds of the young people who aspire to these heights, but it won't happen overnight. And just a comment about the MCAT: I may be mistaken, but I don't think any URM has gotten in solely because they have a borderline MCAT and GPA. That test maybe measures about 20% of the knowledge you will gain in medical school (the rest you may never use again), and it should be known that DO schools don't weigh the MCAT as heavily as MD schools. The hollistic review tries to look at the entire applicant in addition to the numbers. If it ever comes down to a choice between accepting a URM vs. a non URM, it would be more so because of the non-cognitive variables than the MCAT (They wouldn't compare a URM with a 25 to a non URM with a 30)

That's probably wrong- no offense but look at the number of non trads going DO. Most people probably say they want to be a doctor at a young age because they watch a TV show where doctors get depicted as superheros. That desire fades away.

 

[MedPR]

I completely agree with you. I wish there was no NEED for URM status as well, and programs like that are a good start. I mentor a lot of younger students from middle school up through high school and college and I feel that the ability and desire to make it through the journey into medicine starts at a very young age. We need better schools and a better environment to cultivate the minds of the young people who aspire to these heights, but it won't happen overnight. And just a comment about the MCAT: I may be mistaken, but I don't think any URM has gotten in solely because they have a borderline MCAT and GPA. That test maybe measures about 20% of the knowledge you will gain in medical school (the rest you may never use again), and it should be known that DO schools don't weigh the MCAT as heavily as MD schools. The hollistic review tries to look at the entire applicant in addition to the numbers. If it ever comes down to a choice between accepting a URM vs. a non URM, it would be more so because of the non-cognitive variables than the MCAT (They wouldn't compare a URM with a 25 to a non URM with a 30)

I completely disagree. The average age of matriculants is what, 25? If traditionals are 22 when they matriculate, that means that there are a good amount of people above the age of 26 matriculating as well.

 

[psychgirrrl]

I completely disagree. The average age of matriculants is what, 25? If traditionals are 22 when they matriculate, that means that there are a good amount of people above the age of 26 matriculating as well.

My job is to develop college aspirations in young children, many come from disadvantaged homes and are African American. I think the ability to undergo this journey can start being developed at young age by making sure those children have access to the classes they will need to do well in High School and College.

An example, if the school makes sure the child takes geometry and is successful in this course during middle school, he or she can start Algebra II in High School and go all the way up to Calculus by the time he/she is done. When he/she gets to college, things will be a lot easier in terms of completing the pre-med requirements if this child wishes to do so. They can go right into Physics and Intro to Chemistry their freshman year which will allow them to take more upper level biology credits and really figure out if this is something they want to do.

I understand what Dr. Leon is trying to say and I kind of think that the older age of medical students reflects this deficit in our education. We are not taught math and science unless we seek it. I know I did not realize I needed physics to be qualify as a candidate for medical school even though I knew for a while this is what I wanted to do. I found that out my freshman year of college and was stuck taking 3 years of math to catch up to the level I needed to take physics. Now, I have to stay an extra semester to take upper Bio courses that I feel will be beneficial to me in medical school. Of course this is my choice but if I was well informed in HS I would be saving myself a lot of money and applying younger.

 

[411309]

My job is to develop college aspirations in young children, many come from disadvantaged homes and are African American. I think the ability to undergo this journey can start being developed at young age by making sure those children have access to the classes they will need to do well in High School and College.

An example, if the school makes sure the child takes geometry and is successful in this course during middle school, he or she can start Algebra II in High School and go all the way up to Calculus by the time he/she is done. When he/she gets to college, things will be a lot easier in terms of completing the pre-med requirements if this child wishes to do so. They can go right into Physics and Intro to Chemistry their freshman year which will allow them to take more upper level biology credits and really figure out if this is something they want to do.

I understand what Dr. Leon is trying to say and I kind of think that the older age of medical students reflects this deficit in our education. We are not taught math and science unless we seek it. I know I did not realize I needed physics to be qualify as a candidate for medical school even though I knew for a while this is what I wanted to do. I found that out my freshman year of college and was stuck taking 3 years of math to catch up to the level I needed to take physics. Now, I have to stay an extra semester to take upper Bio courses that I feel will be beneficial to me in medical school. Of course this is my choice but if I was well informed in HS I would be saving myself a lot of money and applying younger.

Thinking something sounds cool and having the desire to pursue it are two different things though. Many students don't have the desire to take calc in high school.I don't understand why everyone thinks URMs are getting cheated in high school. In small towns, which make up a large part of america, minorities and white people have equal opportunity as far as high school goes.There isnt as many "fancy upscale" high schools as people seem to think. Believe it or not there are tons of run down crap high schools where the middle class goes. I mean the high school i went to was absolutely terrible; but the people that wanted to do well, DID do well. High school is free and equal opportunity, if you do bad, how can you blame anyone but yourself when theres so many free resources to help you these days? And don't tell me theres limited access to those...its pretty easy to get a library card.

 

[MedPR]

My job is to develop college aspirations in young children, many come from disadvantaged homes and are African American. I think the ability to undergo this journey can start being developed at young age by making sure those children have access to the classes they will need to do well in High School and College.

An example, if the school makes sure the child takes geometry and is successful in this course during middle school, he or she can start Algebra II in High School and go all the way up to Calculus by the time he/she is done. When he/she gets to college, things will be a lot easier in terms of completing the pre-med requirements if this child wishes to do so. They can go right into Physics and Intro to Chemistry their freshman year which will allow them to take more upper level biology credits and really figure out if this is something they want to do.

I understand what Dr. Leon is trying to say and I kind of think that the older age of medical students reflects this deficit in our education. We are not taught math and science unless we seek it. I know I did not realize I needed physics to be qualify as a candidate for medical school even though I knew for a while this is what I wanted to do. I found that out my freshman year of college and was stuck taking 3 years of math to catch up to the level I needed to take physics. Now, I have to stay an extra semester to take upper Bio courses that I feel will be beneficial to me in medical school. Of course this is my choice but if I was well informed in HS I would be saving myself a lot of money and applying younger.

1. I don't know of any schools that do not require math and science classes. I don't know where you went to school, but every place I've heard of requires at least basic math and science classes to graduate. Three years of math to catch up? Exactly what kind of physics did you take? The physics I took was trig based. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you take trig after you take algebra. So even if you didn't take pre-algebra in high school, you can take pre-algebra your first semester, college algebra your second semester, and then trig the first semester of sophomore year. Traditional students take physics their junior year, so even if you were behind in math, you wouldn't be behind in terms of pre-requisite timing. Furthermore, I took math through Calc 1 in high school. My first semester of college I took Calculus 1 again. Between then and Physics 1 (First semester of Junior year) I didn't take any math classes and it wasn't a problem.


2. The reason you didn't realize you needed physics is because you didn't do the research and look at the pre-reqs. That's no one's fault but your own. It's beyond annoying to constantly read about people making excuses and blaming other people for their shortcomings. We have all messed up at some point. Take responsibility for it.

 

[DrLeon]

That's probably wrong- no offense but look at the number of non trads going DO. Most people probably say they want to be a doctor at a young age because they watch a TV show where doctors get depicted as superheros. That desire fades away.

I'm 26, didn't start medical school until I was 25, and my desire for medicine started from the time I could speak. I took physics and calc in high school, even graduated second in my class. The problem was the fact that my classes were so watered down and subpar that I was no where near prepared for the level of difficulty they would be in undergrad. I had to do a Masters program for GPA replacement and here I am, a nontrad that has wanted to be a doctor since childhood. I know several notrads and most of them have wanted to be a doctor for a long time, but have been held back by the application process (GPA, MCAT too low),

My post should have been more clear. Children aspire to be pro athletes from a young age and those aspirations are largely cultivated. I would like to see more cultivation of those children that aspire to be doctors, lawyers and astronauts also.

And what I meant by the journey starts at a young age is this: In my opinion, the verbal section (which gives a lot of us problems) is mastered well before college. I scored in the double digits on that section not because I studied for it right before the test (didn't study for it at all in fact), but because I had a strong background from childhood in that area.

 

[MedPR]

I'm 26, didn't start medical school until I was 25, and my desire for medicine started from the time I could speak. I took physics and calc in high school, even graduated second in my class. The problem was the fact that my classes were so watered down and subpar that I was no where near prepared for the level of difficulty they would be in undergrad. I had to do a Masters program for GPA replacement and here I am, a nontrad that has wanted to be a doctor since childhood. I know several notrads and most of them have wanted to be a doctor for a long time, but have been held back by the application process (GPA, MCAT too low),

My post should have been more clear. Children aspire to be pro athletes from a young age and those aspirations are largely cultivated. I would like to see more cultivation of those children that aspire to be doctors, lawyers and astronauts also.

And what I meant by the journey starts at a young age is this: In my opinion, the verbal section (which gives a lot of us problems) is mastered well before college. I scored in the double digits on that section not because I studied for it right before the test (didn't study for it at all in fact), but because I had a strong background from childhood in that area.

I don't buy the argument that high school calc/physics didn't prepare you for college calc/physics. I didn't take biochem, cell biology, or physiology in high school and I got A's in them in college. If you study hard enough, you can get an A in anything with or without an adequate high school background.

I hope you did very well on your BS/PS, since you only had to study for 2 sections while other people study for 3.

 

[411309]

I'm 26, didn't start medical school until I was 25, and my desire for medicine started from the time I could speak. I took physics and calc in high school, even graduated second in my class. The problem was the fact that my classes were so watered down and subpar that I was no where near prepared for the level of difficulty they would be in undergrad. I had to do a Masters program for GPA replacement and here I am, a nontrad that has wanted to be a doctor since childhood. I know several notrads and most of them have wanted to be a doctor for a long time, but have been held back by the application process (GPA, MCAT too low),

My post should have been more clear. Children aspire to be pro athletes from a young age and those aspirations are largely cultivated. I would like to see more cultivation of those children that aspire to be doctors, lawyers and astronauts also.

And what I meant by the journey starts at a young age is this: In my opinion, the verbal section (which gives a lot of us problems) is mastered well before college. I scored in the double digits on that section not because I studied for it right before the test (didn't study for it at all in fact), but because I had a strong background from childhood in that area.

If you are talking about the VR section of the mcat i agree with that on the last paragraph. But the real problem with that is kids dont want to read anymore...theyd rather watch tv and bury their heads in video games. That comes back to bad parenting. I didnt realize my dream to become a doctor until two years ago so here I am playing the catch up game.

Children aspire to be pokemon masters, pro football/basketball players, or they just want an easy job that pays millions. Thats the real problem...I feel like we should be blaming the fact that weve become a lazy society that would rather put a giant band aide on problems rather than actually fix them.

 

[MedPR]

If you are talking about the VR section of the mcat i agree with that on the last paragraph. But the real problem with that is kids dont want to read anymore...theyd rather watch tv and bury their heads in video games. That comes back to bad parenting. I didnt realize my dream to become a doctor until two years ago so here I am playing the catch up game.

Children aspire to be pokemon masters, pro football/basketball players, or they just want an easy job that pays millions. Thats the real problem...I feel like we should be blaming the fact that weve become a lazy society that would rather put a giant band aide on problems rather than actually fix them.

A good amount of the general public believes that's what physicians are.

 

[DrLeon]

If you are talking about the VR section of the mcat i agree with that on the last paragraph. But the real problem with that is kids dont want to read anymore...theyd rather watch tv and bury their heads in video games. That comes back to bad parenting. I didnt realize my dream to become a doctor until two years ago so here I am playing the catch up game.

Children aspire to be pokemon masters, pro football/basketball players, or they just want an easy job that pays millions. Thats the real problem...I feel like we should be blaming the fact that weve become a lazy society that would rather put a giant band aide on problems rather than actually fix them.

We completely agree in this regard, but we are too busy trying to dissect each other's arguments to make the other person wrong. URM status is a bandaid, but it is better than letting the wound fester. We need a ground up approach to all education so there is no need for it in the future. I will be the first person to stand up and cheer when such designations are not NEEDED.

I don't buy the argument that high school calc/physics didn't prepare you for college calc/physics. I didn't take biochem, cell biology, or physiology in high school and I got A's in them in college. If you study hard enough, you can get an A in anything with or without an adequate high school background.

I hope you did very well on your BS/PS, since you only had to study for 2 sections while other people study for 3.

What's your point? I aced all those classes the FIRST time I took them too (in college and graduate school) The problem is the fact that my subpar high school system gave me a B+in honors calc when I barely knew what a limit was. I got an A in a physics class that used algebra for all the calculations. When I got to college We went far deeper than just limits in calc and my physics classes were all calc based.

 

[MedPR]

I'm 26, didn't start medical school until I was 25, and my desire for medicine started from the time I could speak. I took physics and calc in high school, even graduated second in my class. The problem was the fact that my classes were so watered down and subpar that I was no where near prepared for the level of difficulty they would be in undergrad. I had to do a Masters program for GPA replacement and here I am, a nontrad that has wanted to be a doctor since childhood. I know several notrads and most of them have wanted to be a doctor for a long time, but have been held back by the application process (GPA, MCAT too low),

My post should have been more clear. Children aspire to be pro athletes from a young age and those aspirations are largely cultivated. I would like to see more cultivation of those children that aspire to be doctors, lawyers and astronauts also.

And what I meant by the journey starts at a young age is this: In my opinion, the verbal section (which gives a lot of us problems) is mastered well before college. I scored in the double digits on that section not because I studied for it right before the test (didn't study for it at all in fact), but because I had a strong background from childhood in that area.

We completely agree in this regard, but we are too busy trying to dissect each other's arguments to make the other person wrong. URM status is a bandaid, but it is better than letting the wound fester. We need a ground up approach to all education so there is no need for it in the future. I will be the first person to stand up and cheer when such designations are not NEEDED.





What's your point? I aced all those classes the FIRST time I took them too (in college and graduate school) The problem is the fact that my subpar high school system gave me a B+in honors calc when I barely knew what a limit was. I got an A in a physics class that used algebra for all the calculations. When I got to college We went far deeper than just limits in calc and my physics classes were all calc based.

If you performed well in those classes, then I don't understand why you mentioned how unprepared you were coming out of high school...?

 

[EnergyDrink]

DrLeon - Great post, and you really nailed it. I think people blaming URMs is a scapegoat for their own fallacies... which (here it comes) is the underpinnings of racism. However I do think many other schools have distinct advantages for URMs during the application process (which are merited). There are certainly flaws with the URM system, but it is a reliable indicator of the factors you mentioned. If I don't get in this cycle I'm not going to blame URMs for taking my spot - that just sounds absurd. I'm going to blame myself for not trying harder earlier on.

Lastly, can we please stop with this low MCAT scapegoat. There is only one section that has had any real relevance to med school and that is the Bio section (usually everyone's highest score).

According to AAMC the correlation between MCAT and USMLE 1 is only between the PS and BS sections, each contribute statistically equivalently (the correlation is about 0.03 higher on PS - insignificant). VR correlates slightly. Writing does not correlate at all.

 

[411309]

A good amount of the general public believes that's what physicians are.

wait you mean if I become a doctor i cant drive to work in my ferrari at 3 pm, roll out at 6 pm and be at the clubs picking up 50+ chicks by 7? WTF.

 

[MedPR]

wait you mean if I become a doctor i cant drive to work in my ferrari at 3 pm, roll out at 6 pm and be at the clubs picking up 50+ chicks by 7? WTF.

Better to take your helicopter so you don't have to worry about traffic.

 

[DrLeon]

If you performed well in those classes, then I don't understand why you mentioned how unprepared you were coming out of high school...?

I didn't take those classes in high school, aside from cell biology. Since it was my first time seeing many of those classes in professional school I learned them the right way. Once you have been conditioned to understand something one way it is hard to relearn it another way.