Will I be kicked out?

[Hope4Grad]

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Hi,

I know that everyone who reads this will probably not be able to believe there is someone out there like me, but yes, I do exist.

Last year I was fired from my Practicum for being late several times for supervision. I was a 1st year PsyD student, and as a result I was put on academic probation for one year.

This year has been great: other problems I was having within my grad program including not feeling comfortable with my cohort and being late to several supervision groups were remedied. In fact, things just got better: I became a published author (even though in a PsyD program), had great relationships with supervisors, was getting strong reviews, etc. Only weeks before my probationary period was over the faculty reviewed me positively and I was all set to get off of it.

During my first year I was also given feedback that I was too emotional, and I fixed that too.

Then, in the 12th month of a 12 month probation, I started to slip. I started to continuously be late to one supervision. The supervisor got "concerned" and spoke to me. She said she needed to inform the school. I talked to my advisor, told him, and asked him to call her. He is close with my supervisor and they are an alum of my program. The supervisor assured me ahead of time that she would say what she needed to about my lateness but also say the good things about my work and dedication.

I am now sweating bullets. The supervisor said she did not want to harm me, likes me, etc, but felt that it was her ethical duty to tell the school that I was repeatedly late to meet with her (6 times) and showed up unprepared twice. My conversation with my advisor was, needless to say, extremely uncomfortable and difficult. I asked him if he thought I would be kicked out and he said, "I don't know, it doesn't look good."

I have tried to explain that this does not feel the same as last year since I took extremely proactive steps to address this problem as soon as it was brought up to me: within 24 hours I had a plan and was taking concrete steps to correct the lateness. Also, unlike last year, this supervisor and I have a good relationship. Also unlike last year I am not getting bad reviews from any other supervisors - they are all positive. My grades are fine.

In addition, my fiancé was hospitalized for a month and came home just around the time the late flare-ups started to occur with the one supervisor. The faculty is aware of this. They are also aware that I have ADHD and have been working on it.

When I spoke with the Dean and another faculty member, they said that there are other measures besides me leaving that might (not will, this is a big maybe) be explored in the faculty meeting: extending the probation, other types of action - that would not mean getting kicked out. However, getting kicked out is my greatest fear.

Throwing this out to the group for feedback: after a year of great, what are the chances they would kick me out for being late and getting in trouble for what I was placed on probation for (being late). I.e., violating my probation. This situation has not slid into the epic proportions of last year (getting fired, etc). Thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[WisNeuro]

Professionally, the lateness thing can be a huge problem. If you're going private practice, you can do things on your own time and it may not matter as much (besides being on time for client sessions). But, when you're in an institution (VA, academic medical center, etc) this is going to be a big issue. You have deadlines, meetings, etc that you will have to manage on a daily basis. Not too mention, it's offensive to the professionals that you work with as I assume their time is valuable.

It sounds like you're still early on in your training. It really only gets more difficult in terms of time management. Good luck. If you get another chance, don't waste it.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Honestly, I would not keep you around if you were continuously late. You are an adult now. ADHD or not, get it together.

I used to be chronically late (it was my signature that my friends and family, especially my spouse, expected of me), but this is the real world and you should be dismissed (in my opinion, as harsh as it may be) if you can't get your act together and show up on time. I have changed my ways and I am early now (look up Lombardi time - set your clocks 15-minutes forward)...always, by virtue.

Fiancé's problems notwithstanding, if you can't act as a responsible adult, how on this green Earth can anyone trust you to treat patients? It is the patients' (and alas, the supervisors') prerogative to be late, not yours....especially in training. You must learn how to be reliable and timely or else you will fail...at your evaluation, at your externships, & out of your program.

Sorry, but I cannot empathize with this situation because it was a fault of mine own that I remedied WAY before I began my graduate training. As my brother taught me: There is no excuse for lateness in the professional world, there is only Lombardi time.

Improve your discipline or face the consequences, Hope4grad.
Good luck!

 

[cara susanna]

How late are we talking here?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I agree with what everyone else has said--two separate bouts of repeated tardiness, particularly when the second episode came less than a year after a first that was significant enough to get you fired from a practicum placement, is likely deserving of being removed from a program. In my opinion, while the recent tardiness may not be as extreme as the original tardiness in terms of how often and how badly you've been late, I'd make the argument that it's actually worse owing to the fact that you've already been disciplined for it. That being said, depending on your school, I don't know if I'd see them dismissing you for it at this point. At the very least, though, I'd expect them to lengthen the probation and add some sort of formal disciplinary letter/action to your file.

Regardless, while the 12-month probation obviously worked initially, it's apparent that it didn't fully do its job in terms of curbing the behavior outright. Thus, you really do need to sit down and take a serious look at what the biggest contributors to your tardiness are so that you can fix them. Being repeated late to supervision and meetings is of course highly unprofessional, and being repeatedly late to appointments with clients is doubly so (or outright unethical if the provider is billing them for the time they aren't around). At the very least, it detracts from your credibility and rapport with the patient, which are some of the main tools you have going for you.

As CheetahGirl said, best of luck in addressing the issue(s) at hand. It's certainly not an unusual problem, nor is it rare for graduate students early in their training to struggle with getting places on time. But now that you're a professional, you should essentially plan to be everywhere that you need not on time, but early and well-prepared.

Edit: And I definitely second what MCParent said regarding looking into the formal process as laid out in your graduate handbook/manual. If the program already wrote up a formal action plan, and you agreed to (and have now failed to meet the requirements of) that plan, they have grounds to dismiss you. Conversely, if the current probationary period was more informal/off the books, then I don't know that they'd be able to remove you from the program right now (unless, again as MCParent said, they make the argument that the behavior is egregious enough to be unethical).

 

[MCParent]

Your program definitely has a disciplinary action section in the program manual (it has to, it's an accreditation requirement). Usually you need a written warning, along with specific requirements to improve that you agree to complete, before anything else can happen, certainly before you're kicked out of the program (perhaps it might be accelerated if the behavior is so bad that they consider it unethical). That usually means a very official letter, not just an email, too. A meeting is usually the first step before the written warning.

I do agree with others though; get it together.

 

[G Costanza]

What do you want us to say...I hope you don't get kicked out? Stop being late?

 

[Ollie123]

Late as in supervision started at 2:00PM and you came in at 2:01PM because you were with a patient who brought up suicidal ideation on their way out the door, or late as in it started at 2:00PM and you show up at 3:00PM because you forgot/were at home/etc.?

I'm guessing its the latter - maybe I've just worked with pretty laid back people but I can't imagine the former being an issue with anyone. I only ask because I know some practicums/supervisors have a reputation for being ridiculously rigid about certain seemingly randomly selected "professional" issues to the point that people know not to take them seriously. That doesn't sound like its the case here given they've already intervened so as with others I'm not sure what to say. Fix the problem immediately and make sure your behavior is pristine starting immediately. Sleep in the supervision room if you have to. In these situations I would think "Throwing yourself at the mercy of the court" are likely to work better than arguing (especially since it doesn't sound a debatable point).

 

[erg923]

I would stop with the comparisons to last year. Its a bad pattern. Whether one interval is worse than another is irrelevant.

You obviously are smart enough to figure out the root cause of your lateness. So fix it. If you dont, I would kick you out too.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Late as in supervision started at 2:00PM and you came in at 2:01PM because you were with a patient who brought up suicidal ideation on their way out the door, or late as in it started at 2:00PM and you show up at 3:00PM because you forgot/were at home/etc.?

This. There are different degrees of late. In my experience, many supervisors/faculty are 5-10 minutes late to pretty much *everything*, so I can't see them kicking you out of that (it's better not be late at all, of course, but eh); chronically being 30 minutes late is a different story.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

This. There are different degrees of late. In my experience, many supervisors/faculty are 5-10 minutes late to pretty much *everything*, so I can't see them kicking you out of that (it's better not be late at all, of course, but eh); chronically being 30 minutes late is a different story.

Agreed. Although I would also make the argument that if you know a supervisor will consider you late if you show up 5-10 minutes after your meeting time, and you still do so, then it's a problem, and you should be getting there 5-10 minutes early every day. I mean, if you show up to see a patient 10 minutes late, that could potentially be 20% (or more) of your session.

 

[snowcherries]

Take my n=1 story with a grain of salt, but my partner has quite significant inattentive ADHD and currently has a professional job where he's required to attend many meetings in different locations throughout the day. Because he knows that being punctual is a crucial component of his job, he has set up his calendar to provide timed alarms and color-coded computer screen/phone pop-ups throughout the day prompting him when he needs to go to the next meeting. As such, he has zero problems with lateness.

As a psychology graduate student, you should (hopefully) be aware of how these types of prompts function and how easily you can set them up to help you. I don't want to add too much to the dogpile, OP, but if you haven't set these sorts of things up or you choose to not respond to your prompts my guess is that your motivation and not your ADHD is to blame. You might need to think about why being late is reinforcing to you when you've already had a very aversive experience with its consequences.

Good luck with talking to your program and working things out for yourself.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Agreed. Although I would also make the argument that if you know a supervisor will consider you late if you show up 5-10 minutes after your meeting time, and you still do so, then it's a problem, and you should be getting there 5-10 minutes early every day. I mean, if you show up to see a patient 10 minutes late, that could potentially be 20% (or more) of your session.

Good point.

And I would, of course, never be late to client sessions unless it was completely unavoidable.

 

[Lisa44201]

I have ADHD as well. I set calendar reminders and alarms when I have meetings. I know exactly how long it takes to get out of the door in the morning - and keep in mind, getting out the door in this house involves getting my two small children up and ready to go to daycare/school, walking the dogs, driving the kids to daycare/school, then getting to work. What, dare I ask, is the all-consuming responsibility you have in the mornings that keeps you from getting to your Practicum in a timely fashion - better yet, that is more important than getting to your Practicum in a timely fashion?
Take what I say with a granary of salt - keep in mind that, as I said, I have ADHD, too, and physical limitations as well: You cannot ever, EVER, use your ADHD (or anything else) as an excuse for a lack of professionalism. "Late flare-ups?" Give me a break. When you've got an issue that puts you outside the normal population - physical problems, mental health issue, whatever - you figure out what you need to do to keep pace with the rest of the group, and you do it.
Admittedly I'm not a Clinical person, so my level of tact may not be at the level of some of the other folks on this board; having said that, get a grip and get your act together.

 

[erg923]

The flavor of the thread no doubt is to "get your **** together, or get canned."

Its probably the best you are going to get, as this is the way the world works. Being in helping profession doesn't change anything...you just might get a few more emphatic highlights along the way. 🙂

Remember, grad school, more so in this field than in almost any other, is essentially a job (and job training), so there is not alot a room for error

 

[Hope4Grad]

Hi everyone, thanks for the input. Tough to hear but makes sense.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Hi everyone, thanks for the input. Tough to hear but makes sense.

Any updates? When will you know the program's decision?

Good luck!

 

[Hope4Grad]

Not kicked out

 

[LisaLisa86]

Not kicked out

Have you considered working with a psychologist to implement organization and time management strategies? Someone who works with ADHD patients would probably be able to help you with this.

 

[Hope4Grad]

"Sleep in the supervision room if you have to."

I am taking Ollie's suggestion, in a way. Moving to an apartment that is a block away from my Prac next year.

 

[CheetahGirl]

"Sleep in the supervision room if you have to."

I am taking Ollie's suggestion, in a way. Moving to an apartment that is a block away from my Prac next year.

Hey, when I was 8 months pregnant (acutally during the entire last trimester), I found the best spot in my TA office & another awesome spot in the library, SET THE ALARM ON MY CELL, and took snoozes almost every day during my breaks. 😴 They were maybe 15-minute cat-naps, but enough to get me through the rest of the day.

 

[bmedclinic]

Congrats on not getting kicked out OP. I would consider this "the closest call you ever had", and use that as motivation. Try to remedy it to the point that years down the road, people that know you wont even believe you ever had a problem with it.

 

[Hope4Grad]

BMed, your words have stayed with me. It's hard for me, that's for sure (if it weren't, I would never be in this predicament in the first place), but just passed the 2 month mark. 4 more to go...